Barrybran

[Barrybran]

My old thread is here:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2440951&page=1

The guys are giving it to you....and hopefully you are listening.

I'm going to be honest; I'm trying and clearly I don't know how. Short of just not saying anything and taking everything in I just don't know how at this point. I have three kids who are constantly needy or getting into mischief so not talking is not an option. I'm at a loss about what to do about this, really.

As for the last few notes from your wife....Haven't you been being told the exact same stuff by us for the last three months?

It's exactly what you guys have been saying. It's like you guys and my wife have been sitting around a poker table discussing me. I reread my entire last thread and I don't understand why I'm not getting it. I think I get it, an entire thread passes, someone directs me to reread my thread and I find I'm not getting it.

If you take the time to read back through this thread...

You will SEE the unanswered questions that YOU have been asked, to give YOU that same kind of road map....

I went back and reread it. I don't understand how I miss so much. There are a lot of unanswered questions. At this point I'm not sure if I'm supposed to go back and answer them or not but I do see a theme and it's about changes in myself. Two questions did stick out though:

yes, I'm up for an experiment but I honestly don't feel as though I'm ready in terms of personal growth.

What exactly is personal growth for YOU BarryBran?

Honeslty, I don't know who I want to be or where my focus should lie so I've focused on the things my wife has told me she doesn't like.

Stop for a sec and ask yourself this question……..

Would you want to be with someone who does not know who they want to be?

I don't know what personal growth is to me. When I first learned about goal setting I learned that goals should be measurable. I don't know how to measure my growth. This is what lead me to ask my wife if she felt listened to this morning. It wasn't about her, it was about me. I don't feel that I am able to judge my own performance effectively and I don't know how I am going to be able to determine my own growth or lack thereof.

The second part, I don't honestly know the answer to that question. The closest I've come to an answer would be from a situation while my wife and I weren't together in 2011. We had broken up, I'd moved on and I started seeing a girl who was much younger than I was. She was a lot of fun to be around but something wasn't quite right. She was needy, she could barely hold a job, she lived with her parents and I felt that she was too submissive. Typing this, I'm seeing I am the same person to my wife.

The truth is I've never known who I wanted to be. I've never had a desired career in mind. I've never had a desired location in mind. The only things I wanted for sure were a family of my own and to be financially free. I've stuffed up the first and I live week-to-week.

[Mach1]

Posting this here too....


I wanted to go back and touch on this again...

Cause I feel as if this can be a good road-map for you..

I had a go at defining each quality. I did this relatively quickly but I did it when I was calm and relaxed and on my own rather than trying to force answers.

Think about it this way...

You already have all of your answers, you have just been asking the wrong questions....

What I see here, although they are a GOOD start, are more of a skillset than an ingrained quality...

Try chiseling down these things, and pinpoint where they fit into who you are at your core....

Reliable
- To me, someone who is reliable would be someone I can call upon to help me with things. They may not always be available but I know that when they aren’t, they have a genuine reason and they will endeavour to be available in the future.

This also ties into being loyal, faithful, and trustworthy. And since I noticed this three times on your list, what is it, that makes you focus so much on this quality ?

Is that something from the past ? Abandonment issues perhaps?

And to give you a little bit of a nudge here....

I would say that the quality in all of these, would be that you are an Honorable man, and a man of great integrity...

So for your list of qualities...

I would just say

Honorable

Good listener
- I feel a good listener is someone who makes eye contact, doesn’t look around the room and isn’t doing anything distracting such as fiddling with their fingers or playing with their phone. I feel that when someone is listening to you, you have a connection with them.

How have you GIVEN this in the past ??

How important is it for you to give, in order to receive this ??

Good communicator
- A good communicator to me is someone who is clear and concise, polite, uses the appropriate volume and tone of voice for the situation and most importantly, knows what they want to say.

Like I said above....are you able to give this ?

Are you clear and concise ? OR do you flounder around aimlessly without really making a decision ??

Are you able to remember details of every conversation ??

Are you a note taker ??

Try following this rule...

Listen without defending, and speak without offending

This also ties into being a good listener...

What quality would you say that ties these together ??

Faithful
- Someone who is faithful, to me, is someone who doesn’t cheat on someone important to them: a spouse, a friend, a family member.

I covered this above, and I want you to see that this may have been thrown in with a touch of anger, and superiority because of your current situation....


I do know that this is important, yet HOW important was this to you before the bomb ?

Patient
- I feel someone who is patient is someone who can ride through a lot of nonsense and respond to a situation calmly, articulately, sensitively and fairly.

Again....what are you SHOWING in order to receive ???

Trustworthy
- Someone who deserves the trust of another person. They can give their word to someone, is believed and their actions support their words.

Are YOU trustworthy ???

Fair
- Someone who weighs up a situation and delivers an outcome that is beneficial to all parties while achieving specific goals.

Fair can mean a lot of things...

Life ISN'T fair Barry, never was, never will be.

Fairness is something that we can only give and hope to get back.

Loyal
- Someone who is loyal is someone who fights for and defends their friends and family and remains faithful to them.

See above

Calm
- I feel that someone who is calm is someone who does not allow themselves to be easily excited or aroused in a stressful situation and can exercise patience where required.

Calmness doesn't always mean passive...

You can be calm and still lead the way...

It also doesn't mean that there is no passion either.

Showing the cracks in your armor is sometimes a good thing. It is how you handle those situations that will make a difference in your life, and interactions.

You can be the calmest guy in the world and still get frazzled by things...

It is from that point forward that matters....



I know that this sounds crazy, yet when I say that I want to show the world certain things about myself, every day...

I don't have to elaborate about the finer points of things in order to acheive them...

I can say that I want to be Honorable, Loveable, Honest, Compassionate....

And every detail, is in those qualities...

No matter the situation....

Make more sense ????

[Barrybran]

I'm going to take some time to ponder what you have all written. I feel like I'm on the edge of a breakthrough and you guys can see something I can't just yet. Something did pop out though that also popped out when I was reading The Way of the Superior Man:

Try chiseling down these things, and pinpoint where they fit into who you are at your core....

I don't feel I know who I am at my core. TWOTSM spoke repeatedly of acting and loving from the core. If I don't know who or what my core is, either I can't act from it or if I can, I don't know that I am doing so from my core and risk doing so from both my core and other centres around the body.

[Barrybran]

While I'm working on this list, if my wife says something I know I need to listen. Should I try to respond appropriate to the situation or, because I seem to have no idea how to communicate right now, should I just not say a word? If she asks for a response to something do I try to respond or respectfully tell her that I don't know what the he11 I'm doing when I talk (in different words of course) and come back to it later?

[Mach1]

While I'm working on this list, if my wife says something I know I need to listen. Should I try to respond appropriate to the situation or, because I seem to have no idea how to communicate right now, should I just not say a word? If she asks for a response to something do I try to respond or respectfully tell her that I don't know what the he11 I'm doing when I talk (in different words of course) and come back to it later?

I think that this has been laid out pretty clearly by her...

We can set CLEAR concise boundaries. That way neither of us ASSUMES anything ever again.
All bills regarding household/cars etc will be split down the middle.
Anything regarding the kids will be done the same way.

You discuss anything that falls within the realm of that ^^^^

Anything else ??

You LISTEN and STFU. Validate when necessary, and don't make it more than it is....

If it is something that you are uncomfortable discussing, then excuse yourself from the conversation....

I.E. = I am not prepared to discuss this now, and I would like time to collect my thoughts before I respond...


PS....I would also scratch the word "cars" off of that list...

Independence doesn't include having someone else pay for car maintenance for you....KWIM ?

[Mach1]

I'm going to take some time to ponder what you have all written. I feel like I'm on the edge of a breakthrough and you guys can see something I can't just yet. Something did pop out though that also popped out when I was reading The Way of the Superior Man:

Try chiseling down these things, and pinpoint where they fit into who you are at your core....

I don't feel I know who I am at my core. TWOTSM spoke repeatedly of acting and loving from the core. If I don't know who or what my core is, either I can't act from it or if I can, I don't know that I am doing so from my core and risk doing so from both my core and other centres around the body.

I think that you may be overthinking this a bit too...

This isn't going to come to you in this great epiphany, and this bright shining light leading the way.

It is the little things that take time to work through, and if done correctly ?

It is a lifelong process of self-evaluation, and tweaking.

There will be victory, and there will be defeat.

Through victory, you will gain confidence, and empowerment...

Through defeat, you will gain insight into what you don't want, and it will humble you.

It will also motivate you to change the things about yourself that you do not like, or want....


Mistakes are only fatal if you learn nothing from them. Mistakes are the way that we learn a better way through life.

Going through life is what teaches us our lessons.

Just live your life, and define YOURSELF as you go...

Cause nobody gets to define who you are...except you...

[Barrybran]

Looks like I'll be doing a lot of pondering tomorrow. Thanks. Just quickly though, the cars are included because we have kids in car seats and only one set of seats. The seats don't all fit in my car so whoever has to move the kids uses my wife's car and the other will use my car. I have no problem paying half of her vehicle maintenance because I'm using half of the vehicle and vice versa.

[Lostforwords]

B,

Mach is hitting you with good stuff.....One thing I want to mention though. Life change...Perception change....Really isn't about goals or deadlines. The reality is there is only one true goal to change and that is to start changing...embrace change!

It is like a boulder at the top of an endless mountain....Once the boulder starts to roll, it just keeps on rolling. Never stopping....Just continuously moving forward until you reach the bottom of the mountain (of course the mountain is life and the bottom of it...well that is the end and a whole different conversation lol). It is a day by day thing...The little things adding up to a better you.

As for the cars...While I do see your point, I agree with Mach. In the bigger picture of true independence, her car is hers to take care of. Your car is yours. I often share vehicles with a neighbor....while we do fill up the gas tanks, neither of us would ask for or pay for big repairs etc. So would you pay for a friend to have their car repairs done?

And yes....that in itself is accepting the big picture for you.

[Barrybran]

I just found a really cool quote:

"If you really want to do something, you'll find a way. If you don't, you'll find an excuse."

It definitely fits me and I'll have to be more aware of where I'm finding reason and making excuses.

[Barrybran]

I've had a pretty good day so far. It's been a bit of a "me" day. I woke before my wife went to work but didn't get out of bed until after she left. We didn't have the kids today so I could afford a lie in before getting my day started. My home gym was due to arrive today and I had a list of things I wanted to do.

That quickly fell apart as my home gym was delivered to a location in town and being 180kg (~400lb) I couldn't just go and pick it up. My wife's friend's partner works at the place it was dropped off and offered to put it on the back of his ute and bring it round for me. A short while later, one of the girls from work asked if I could do her shift tonight as she has tonsilitis so I agreed and went about organising having the kids looked after. On top of that, I was expecting a phone call from my boss to go down to the store as we had an inspection today and she wanted me to meet the inspector.

So I waited... the guy with my home gym hadn't shown up, I couldn't get hold of the family friend who had our kids and my boss didn't call. An hour and a half had passed and I felt that I needed to get things organised as I'd committed to go to work. I went into town and Murphy's Law kicked into place. The family friend called me back and agreed to look after the kids until my wife got home. The guy who was bringing my home gym to my place got his ute loaded and came around. That left my boss. As it was approaching lunch time, I figured she was busy (it's school holidays here) and went on with my day.

As part of my original plan for today, I decided to get a haircut as it was getting quite messy. I wanted a new look and with visible signs of receding hair and my new home gym I did some research and one person's image kept popping up... Jason Statham! He's not the best actor but he's in some good films and he's a good looking guy for a balding guy. I'd admired his image several years ago and it was an image I wanted to emulate in the future if I ever got off my butt and worked out. Well, now the hair is going and I've got my home gym. I went to the barber and asked for a #3. He took a step back and was impressed. He's in his 50's, bald himself and he's been the town barber for three decades I believe. He's done my hair since I've been in town and it's the first time I've asked for a buzz cut. I got it and I must say, I like it! It's actually a little too long to be honest.

I had a bit of time up my sleeve and went to the nursery to find flowers for the garden I'm working on. The lady helped me with some ideas so now I have some research to do. I came home and got ready for work. I spiced things up a bit by shaping up my facial hair for the beginnings of a stubble beard... my facial hair is patchy though so it's more like a chinstrap with moustache and flavour-savour. I'm happy with it though. I sprayed on some cologne and donned the lime green work shirt I have instead of the black everyone else and I usually go for. I'm feeling pretty good about myself today.

So I'll be heading to work in 10 minutes and earning five hours worth of money I didn't previous have. I haven't done any cleaning today so hopefully my wife doesn't freak out. I can do it tonight though. My kids won't get to see me until tomorrow afternoon and then they're off again for the weekend so I'll spend a couple of hours playing with them after work before setting up my gym and working out with it for the first time.

Oh, and half of town will see my new haircut before my wife does... mwahahahaha :p

[Barrybran]

I was feeling good about my day and now I'm in very deep thought. My wife wanted to talk to me when I got home about:

- an inappropriate comment I made in front of our family friend. The family friend told me she was going out of town next week and I asked if she was taking our kids. She said she wasn't as she couldn't fit the kids in the car. I joked that my kids had been bumped for family friend's grandson. I didn't mean anything by it but she was offended by it and told my wife. I'm going to find her and apologise tomorrow;

- the home gym I bought. My wife cited that I'd kept spending pretty tight when we were together and now that we're separated I bought a home gym. She brought up the car service again as well as the clothes that she bought for the kids on the weekend. She said it was a "slap in the face" that I would spend money on myself when I was so frugal when we were together. She felt I controlled our relationship with money and that my priorities weren't the same as hers and weren't family-oriented; and

- me not cleaning the house today. I was home for much of the morning and my wife felt I should have cleaned up before I went to work.

My wife also mocked the haircut I got by saying "I hope you find a new nympho girlfriend" (a reference to the girl I was seeing when we were separated prior to marriage) and that I didn't "look like a father". I'm disregarding these as I feel good about myself. I got the new hairstyle because I'm going to go bald and I wanted to see how it looks. I like it.

She also said that if I had enough money to buy a home gym I have enough money to move out. I didn't acknowledge this comment, I won't be moving out and my wife never brought it up again.

I sat and listened to my wife and she got very heated. At one point I thought she was going to cry. I was calm and maintained eye contact and took everything in. Afterwards, I excused myself, told her I needed to collect my thoughts and left the house with a pen and some paper. I did that and sat for about an hour thinking and writing. I went home when I felt I was done and my wife was waiting up for me.

I validated her concerns and she fell quiet. I started to leave the room and she asked "is that all?" I sat back down and we had a long discussion. We spoke about the issues she raised, my parenting style with my son, how she felt I controlled our relationship with my infidelity, how she never would have dated me if she didn't have "rose-coloured glasses" on at the beginning and how her gut feeling is more right than wrong.

A couple of things came up where I felt the need to explain or stand up for myself. They were:

- my son's asthma. The family friend told my wife that I was more concerned about D2 potentially having asthma than S6, which I did say. D2 exhibited wheezing a few nights ago and it was checked out and cleared. S6 has had some issues on and off but nothing that I am concerned about. I'm a lifelong asthmatic so I know what to look for. I was hospitalised several times as a child. My son was hospitalised two weeks after he was born with lung problems but he's never exhibited severe asthma in the whole time I've known my wife. Recently, he's had problems when he's active at school and I've discussed what to do with my son in those situations as well as having him take his medication before bed. I sensed that my wife thought I was sweeping it under the rug and treating one child (D2) more seriosuly/favourably than he other (S6);

- the car service. Since the car service discussion I brought up communication. My wife's communication has improved though I feel it's been out of spite. She said she felt I was being controlling by having everything written down. I felt this was unfair and explained to her my understanding of the same situation. I told her that she's divided finances, has been fiercely independent and that while I made funds available and she acknowledged this, she didn't explicitly commit to me that she would be using those funds (LFW interpreted the same as my wife). I told her that she had received wages, a new credit card and, what she told me, $1000 worth of shopping prior to the car service so my perception, between dividing finances, her independence and this apparent acquisition of money, that she was covering it herself. I told her that I am trying to communicate better and since my memory is terrible, I am having her write things down so I remember and if I don't, she can highlight it to me for future reference. I told her what I mentioned here the other night that whether we're married for 40-50 years or co-parenting for 15 years we will have a relationship and need to be able to communicate with one another;

- my son's speech. Family friend is a teacher and told my wife he may have a lisp. My son does not have a lisp. Prior to returning to school this year, my son was speaking normally. Since returning to school, my son speaks with a lisp half the time. I believe that one or more of my son's friends may be lazy with their speech and my son has picked up on this. I feel this way because half the time my son speaks perfectly and recently, since I've been pulling him up on it every time he does it, he has been correcting himself and speaks properly. My wife doesn't pay as much attention to my son's speech as I do so I asked her to listen more closely to it;

- disciplining my son. I've already started working on this. My wife brought it up anyway. The issue reared again because my son spoke with a lisp at family friend's place, paused, corrected himself and then broke down. Family friend asked why and my son told her that he's been put into time out when he speaks with a lisp. One problem... I've never put my son into time out for lazy speech. I have pulled him up on it every time he does it but I've not put him into time out for it. My son has learned that he can break down and people will listen to him... except for me. For some reason, I'm the only person who doesn't respond to his breaking down. I know I have my flaws however I know when my kids are lying and when they're telling the truth and my son lies a lot. We've started working on this and it's improving. He's getting away with it out of my care though. My son and I will be having a little chat about this tomorrow. I told my wife that we've never really discussed parenting and that if she felt I could do something better to let me know.

I felt tonight was a good conversation. I listened when my wife spoke, she listened when I spoke, she stood up for herself, I STFU and stood up for myself when I felt it was important to do so, I reiterated that our communication needs work and stated why and my wife got a lot off her chest. I did tell my wife that I don't want to upset her yet I still seem to be doing so. I told her that I am trying to improve certain things and they seem to be misinterpreted so I'm still having difficulty expressing myself. I felt that tonight was another "grow up and get your chit together" with parts of "I'm done".

Towards the end, LFW's words screamed loudly at me: be the changes you want to see. It was definitely a light bulb moment. ie. stop talking about it and start doing it. Communication between my wife and I definitely has to improve and I feel we're both aware of it and can start making some inroads. I saw some of what Mach had to say in that she has to let the anger our before she can heal. My wife tells me that she's starting to feel more like herself again. I can only go off her word.

[Lostforwords]

B,

A serious question for you....Have you ever been tested for Autism, specifically Asperger's disorder? I am curious...My son has it and in my readings on him....You seem to show a lot of the characteristics. It isn't a bad thing, just a thing to be aware of.

- A sarcastic comment taken out of context....There isn't much to do on that one.

- Home gym....I like that you got it and your thinking behind why was well thought out. We have also talked about finances before and your wife's perception on that in accords with yours. Your talk reiterated our conversations....You might want to review your thinking on finances again....There is a difference between frugal and responsible.

- Cleaning....She expressed her feelings...Not a lot there. Basically you can't win type statement.

- Haircut...You like it and that is what matters. She is just pulling you down from your high...Basic stuff for the other spouse in our world.

-Moving out....Well played...You are learning from us LOL

Sounds like you did a fine job in the conversation. Listen, validate, express your thoughts...Well done. I like how you took ownership of your communication issues, explained (the writing) how you are trying to be better at it. Good stuff.

- Asthama...First I know you love S6 as much as the other kids, but beware that at times people might not see that. That isn't a you thing....That is other people things and a great time to validate with understanding. Know that you love him and that is what counts.

- Speech...First I am concerned for your son. My son has a lisp at times. Yes I do tell him to speak up and through it, but one thing I have caught on to. When he is having social problems at school the lisp becomes significantly worse. I suggest instead of punishing him for the lying, go another route. Talk with him about how the two of you can work together on his lisp. When he trusts you, the lying will stop.....but first he has to trust that you will listen without judgement.

[Barrybran]

Thanks LFW. I haven't thought of Asperger's or anything else for that matter. I figured I could just change who I am.

Today has got off to an unsavoury start. I woke at 4am to go to the toilet and noticed that my wife wasn't home again. This is the first time she hasn't returned home when the kids have been home though. I start work at 7am and I can't take the kids with me so I messaged my wife to let her know that I noticed she wasn't home and that I would be starting work soon. I am fighting like he!! not to mindread and she's texted back "I'll be back" 40 minutes later. We live in a place where there is nothing. It's not the kind of place you pull all nighters. Also, she was picked up so I have both cars and it's way too cold to be walking home and I can't go and pick her up so she'll have to get someone to drop her home. Now I have to go into trust mode, go about my morning as usual and go to work.

I feel that it's important to let her know my concerns about potentially having to take the kids to work because I don't know what her plans are, as well as her safety. I also feel that I should not confront her so as to not make her feel as though I'm prying. Honestly though, I can't be waking up at 5:30am expecting to go to work and not knowing if someone will be available to look after my kids.

I'll have all day to think about this but off the top of my head I'm thinking I'll express that I felt concerned about having to wake the kids up to take them to work and that I need to know she'll be there to look after the kids when I go to work. I'd like to express my concern for her safety. I don't think this will go over well and I should probably avoid it. Any thoughts?

[Barrybran]

I feel a little mixed at the moment. My wife wound up coming home at 6:30am and I found out tonight that her friend had had some issues that my wife had helped her with by staying with her through the night. My wife was doing an honourable thing. I still felt strongly about not knowing whether my wife would be home or not and I spoke with her after the kids went to bed. I told her that she did an honourable thing by helping her friend and that I didn't know if she was going to be home to look after the kids or whether I had to take them to work. I told her I didn't need to know what she was doing, who she was with or where she was, only that I needed to know if she was going to be there to look after the kids when I went to work.

My wife is a great mother. She's never let my kids down. Those thoughts were strong in my mind this morning despite having to fight with my mind on other things. Deep down I thought she would be home. I don't like dealing with uncertainty though. Dealing with not knowing what she's doing is tough enough and I've accepted how it is and what I need to do to combat those thoughts. I felt that not knowing whether my wife would be home for the kids was a bit much. She felt I was intruding on her space and I get that. I didn't want to go there as I knew that it was encroaching on her space. I felt that needing to know that the kids would be taken care of outweighed her need for space and privacy.

I related the incident back to our issues with communication and she didn't like that. I told her that she asked me to tell her what I thought and felt and that while I have trouble articulating at times, I felt strongly about this issue and I brought it to her. She related my feelings back to her feelings about not knowing what I was doing on my computer when I cheated. She asked how it felt and I admitted that I had some personal stuff to deal with in that area and that I would. I reiterated to her that I need to know what is happening with the kids and that I felt very strongly about that. The conversation paused and I left the room.

I feel like an arsehole for invading her space. I feel I've done the right thing by myself by asking that I know she'll be there. She did say that I assumed she wouldn't be there and honestly, I didn't know so I had to think she would be there and plan for her not being there. It's not a thought process I want to deal with and I told her that. She's not happy with me right now. I'm getting used to that theme though. I really hope that we can get on the same page. We're so far apart at the moment and I know I'm only making things worse yet I feel that I need to build a solid foundation for myself and if we can set the ground rules now, things will get easier.

See how we go I guess.

[Barrybran]

Today was a decent day. Last night, my wife told me she was going out of town today and asked if I could come along to share the driving. It's probably a situation where I should have said no. I haven't been out of town for a while, my wife hasn't asked me to do anything with her and it was a chance to spend a full day with the kids outside the house so I went along.

The drive and day was pretty pleasant. There was a lot of quiet time, a lot of business and I wandered off a couple of times to do look at my own things when I wasn't interested in waiting for my wife. I told a couple of jokes through the day and she responded to one with an awkward, trying-not-to-laugh smirk and another she joined in on. We shared some conversation about the kids and upcoming events and I listened and responded accordingly. The only really awkward part was on the drive away from home when she mentioned about buying car seats for our daughters "so we didn't have to swap cars" rather than because they've outgrown the ones they're in, which is why she started shopping for car seats initially. I didn't respond to the divisiveness of the comment though I did tell my wife that we would need five car seats if we were to do this, three new ones for my car and two for hers to replace the ones my daughters have outgrown. I didn't tell her that I agreed with buying seats for my car. I figure I'd deal with that if and when the situation called for it.

We had some time to ourselves at one point and I apologised to her for assuming that she wouldn't be home yesterday morning. I told her she's never let the kids down and I shouldn't assume she'll start doing it. I reiterated that I need to know if she's going to be around rather than guessing she would be. She didn't respond as one of our kids came running over with a cut toe.

We shared some more pleasant conversation on the way home and that ran into a shared pizza while watching some TV. I left the room when I finished pizza to watch cartoons with the kids and on the way out I asked her to tally up my half of today's and last week's shopping so I can reimburse her. Initially she put the receipts on the bench and a while later, came back and added the figures up herself and presented them to me.

As my kids were going to bed, my son asked a question about a line trimmer my wife bought last week that she said was "a present for us". My son asked who's it was and my wife said it was hers. My son responded by asking "so you have one and Daddy has one?" and my wife said "no". I misinterpreted this as her telling my son that it was hers and not ours and I brought this up to her after the kids went to bed. I've observed my wife calling the master bedroom hers and the spare bedroom mine in front of the kids and I asked her to be more careful about language in front of the kids. She cited that the kids have been calling the main bedroom hers for much of the past 18 months as I've spent considerable time away from home and the kids haven't associated the master bedroom as being mine.

I mentally told myself to STFU and listen and I did just that. I asked a couple of questions to clarify her feelings and when I felt that I understood her, I apologised for challenging her on a misinterpretation. She got pretty steamy with me though there was no yelling. She went to bed straight after our discussion.

I don't know how I feel about this one. I did think there was something there so I brought it up. I feel that I understand her better now than I did prior to the conversation. She seems pretty pissed off at me about it though. I see it as a backward step yet I see it as building a better foundation for moving forward, both in understanding my wife and expressing my thoughts and feelings.

In other news, potential OM popped up again today. My wife made mention of him yesterday while talking to her sister. My wife told SIL that he was at the pub with her and and her friend on Saturday night. I was within earshot and my wife didn't become secretive when talking about him. My son mentioned today he was also at a BBQ yesterday with my wife, my kids and my wife's friend (same one at the pub Saturday) as well as her friends and parents. My wife told me in January that he was just a friend. To the best of my knowledge, my wife has only spent time with this guy in the presence of others (other friends and/or my kids) other than a couple of visits when he was moving house in December/January (when things were really bad between us and she "considered" dating/sleeping with other people and chose not to). She values her integrity highly and I believe her. She'd have to be the world's biggest hypocrite after what I've done to her if she were misleading me and I honestly believe she's being straight up with me. Integrity has been a strong theme in discussions between my wife and I.

I do feel uncomfortable with his presence though as I've never met him, he has met my children and he's spending time with my wife with (her) close friends and family without me. The BBQ is a biggie for me as I wasn't even told about it directly, it was just mentioned around me, while this guy has been invited and attended and his presence was brought up by my son and not my wife. I was at work so there's benefit of the doubt though I don't think he would have been there if I was. I don't know who he is, what his agenda is or what my wife's relationship with him is. I do worry about a potential EA (likely unrealised) although I still believe she is in an IA instead with everything she has told me about me. I know I can't bring anything up about him and even if there was something there, I can't do anything about it other than to look after myself. Right now, I am focused on trying to do things for me without further pissing off my wife.

My individual goal is to work on my PMA, understand what my wife and you guys are saying to me and put it into action and to be happy within my own skin. I do have a wife-related goal being to make it to July and my wife being comfortable enough to continue living here with me.

[Barrybran]

This is a REALLY long post so I apologise in advance.

I wanted to go back and touch on this again...

Cause I feel as if this can be a good road-map for you..

I had a go at defining each quality. I did this relatively quickly but I did it when I was calm and relaxed and on my own rather than trying to force answers.

Think about it this way...

You already have all of your answers, you have just been asking the wrong questions....

What I see here, although they are a GOOD start, are more of a skillset than an ingrained quality...

Try chiseling down these things, and pinpoint where they fit into who you are at your core....

I finally had a go at each of these questions. Here goes.

Reliable
- To me, someone who is reliable would be someone I can call upon to help me with things. They may not always be available but I know that when they aren’t, they have a genuine reason and they will endeavour to be available in the future.

This also ties into being loyal, faithful, and trustworthy. And since I noticed this three times on your list, what is it, that makes you focus so much on this quality ?

Is that something from the past ? Abandonment issues perhaps?

I cheated on my wife. When I was doing it, I was shocked that I was not only capable of doing it but willing to go through with it. I knew what I was doing, I knew it was against who I was at my core and yet I did it anyway. I also feel that I’m someone who is a “gunna” as in “I’m gunna do this” or “I’m gunna do that” and never follow through with it.

When it comes to work however, I follow through with it most of the time. I say most as I am very dedicated to my work and I understand that I’m there to do a job. I also understand that I work hard and sometimes I need to have a bit of downtime, even at work.

As for the abandonment issues, I don’t know. I’ve never felt that I’ve had every desired trait in one person though I understand now that different people will fill different needs for me and that’s OK. There have been times I’ve felt I’ve not been able to rely upon anyone and I’ve felt alone in the world and I don’t want others to feel that way.

Good listener
- I feel a good listener is someone who makes eye contact, doesn’t look around the room and isn’t doing anything distracting such as fiddling with their fingers or playing with their phone. I feel that when someone is listening to you, you have a connection with them.

How have you GIVEN this in the past ??

How important is it for you to give, in order to receive this ??

Honestly, I’m not sure that I have given this in the past. I think I’ve always tried to fix peoples problems by adding my own two cents rather than being the wall that someone needs to talk to. As LFW has uncovered, I’ve always felt superior to others and I’ve treated most problems as solveable rather than taking a step back, listening and offering advice only if asked.

I don’t know that it is important to give it to receive it. I’m sure I’m going to find out though. LFW suggested changing the way I deal with my son and already it’s reaping benefits because I’m listening to him instead of forcing my way on him. In less than two weeks he’s opening up to me, telling me things I might be “mad” about (I’m not mad about them though I now understand why he would feel that way), and tonight, he even asked to do something with me instead of my wife which hasn’t happened in a very long time. I guess I feel that it’s important. I can’t honestly say that I know it’s important yet.

Good communicator
- A good communicator to me is someone who is clear and concise, polite, uses the appropriate volume and tone of voice for the situation and most importantly, knows what they want to say.

Like I said above....are you able to give this ?

Are you clear and concise ? OR do you flounder around aimlessly without really making a decision ??

Are you able to remember details of every conversation ??

Are you a note taker ??

Try following this rule...

Listen without defending, and speak without offending

This also ties into being a good listener...

What quality would you say that ties these together ??

I don’t know that I’m able to give this yet. I would like to be able to be a good communicator though. It is important to me that I am understood when I speak and I am learning that 1) people aren’t willing to listen to me because I’m not willing to listen to them and 2) I have serious flaws in the way I express my thoughts and feelings.

I am not clear and concise as much I have felt I have been. I flounder with my words and I am even worse with my thoughts. I am the classic fence sitter and my wife even told me as recently as last week that I defer to her way too much on decisions.

I am not able to remember details of conversations as easily as I like. I am not a note taker and I forget things easily.

I would say the quality that ties the quote together is understanding.

Faithful
- Someone who is faithful, to me, is someone who doesn’t cheat on someone important to them: a spouse, a friend, a family member.

I covered this above, and I want you to see that this may have been thrown in with a touch of anger, and superiority because of your current situation....


I do know that this is important, yet HOW important was this to you before the bomb ?

I’m not sure what you mean by being thrown in with a touch of anger and superiority. I feel that I have let my wife down in this way and I don’t want to let anyone down like this again. Faithfulness was incredibly important to me until just before I cheated on my wife. Things went bad, I felt unloved and I had just got married and it was a deeply philosophical time for me. My head was filled with questions such as “Why does my wife not love me?”, “Why do I put up with this?”, “Why should I put up with this?”, “Why should I remain faithful to my wife when she has no interest in being my wife?” It was an extremely testing period for me and I failed the test. I also understand two things now: 1) I didn’t have the tools that I have now and 2) I withdrew from my wife, not the other way round. I stopped showing her love and she responded by ceasing to show me love. I previously felt it was somewhat of an obligation in marriage that you entered it so it should be given and received. Now, I now understand that if you love, you love unconditionally and you appreciate it when it comes your way without expecting it to come again.

Patient
- I feel someone who is patient is someone who can ride through a lot of nonsense and respond to a situation calmly, articulately, sensitively and fairly.

Again....what are you SHOWING in order to receive ???

I thought I was patient and I’ve discovered I’m not. Like the example earlier with my son, LFW challenged the way I dealt with him and it is showing dividends because I am taking a step back, listening to him, and letting him realise his own mistakes rather than jumping down his throat. My girls though are more of a challenge. I’m definitely working on being more patient and I’ve only out and out yelled at them once. I’m sure my blood pressure has increased though

Trustworthy
- Someone who deserves the trust of another person. They can give their word to someone, is believed and their actions support their words.

Are YOU trustworthy ???

No I’m not. I cheated on my wife and as recently as two weeks ago my wife overheard me joking with my boss about something she felt very strongly about. I am trying to become more trustworthy and I am still learning how to do so. I’ve not been back to the main website that I abused since May last year and I cut contact with any women my wife felt uncomfortable with in October/November last year (too late by this stage). I am still learning what makes my wife tick and what makes her ticked off and adjusting my behaviour accordingly. I felt that being told off for doing too much housework was funny. She felt like I was taking something away from her and she was incredibly angry because I’d discussed the situation with a third party which is what lead to me cheating initially (not that I’d cheat with my boss, rather that I’d discussed our personal problems with someone other than my wife). It’s a work in progress.

I know that this sounds crazy, yet when I say that I want to show the world certain things about myself, every day...

I don't have to elaborate about the finer points of things in order to acheive them...

I can say that I want to be Honorable, Loveable, Honest, Compassionate....

And every detail, is in those qualities...

No matter the situation....

Make more sense ????

It makes sense. I feel like I am a the beginning and I need to learn what each of these things mean to me, my wife, my son, etc. I honestly thought I was being asked to break these down the way I have and didn’t realise you meant it in general terms. I take things very literally. I don’t mind in this sense as it feels like goalsetting to me: determining what I want, prioritising it, determining how I am going to get there and defining what will signify progress to me. I can only hope to get to the same point as you. Right now, I feel I have to re-learn everything and put it into terms I understand.

[Mach1]

When it comes to work however, I follow through with it most of the time. I say most as I am very dedicated to my work and I understand that I’m there to do a job. I also understand that I work hard and sometimes I need to have a bit of downtime, even at work.

So one might say that your actions are more of an obligation, and that is what drives you ???

Was your Marriage more of an obligation ?

I don’t know that it is important to give it to receive it. I’m sure I’m going to find out though. LFW suggested changing the way I deal with my son and already it’s reaping benefits because I’m listening to him instead of forcing my way on him. In less than two weeks he’s opening up to me, telling me things I might be “mad” about (I’m not mad about them though I now understand why he would feel that way), and tonight, he even asked to do something with me instead of my wife which hasn’t happened in a very long time. I guess I feel that it’s important. I can’t honestly say that I know it’s important yet.

The key here...is that YOU changed how you interact with him, because YOU wanted more out of the relationship...

So yes....you gave it, in order to receive it...

I don’t know that I’m able to give this yet. I would like to be able to be a good communicator though. It is important to me that I am understood when I speak and I am learning that 1) people aren’t willing to listen to me because I’m not willing to listen to them and 2) I have serious flaws in the way I express my thoughts and feelings.

I am not clear and concise as much I have felt I have been. I flounder with my words and I am even worse with my thoughts. I am the classic fence sitter and my wife even told me as recently as last week that I defer to her way too much on decisions.

I am not able to remember details of conversations as easily as I like. I am not a note taker and I forget things easily.

I would say the quality that ties the quote together is understanding.

So, if you were to take away the context of your recent conversations, and focus on the content, would you say that there is better communication now ? Or say, a month ago ???

You ARE changing Barry...little bit by little bit, and you aren't even realizing it.....

Faithful
- Someone who is faithful, to me, is someone who doesn’t cheat on someone important to them: a spouse, a friend, a family member.

I covered this above, and I want you to see that this may have been thrown in with a touch of anger, and superiority because of your current situation....


I do know that this is important, yet HOW important was this to you before the bomb ?

I’m not sure what you mean by being thrown in with a touch of anger and superiority. I feel that I have let my wife down in this way and I don’t want to let anyone down like this again. Faithfulness was incredibly important to me until just before I cheated on my wife. Things went bad, I felt unloved and I had just got married and it was a deeply philosophical time for me. My head was filled with questions such as “Why does my wife not love me?”, “Why do I put up with this?”, “Why should I put up with this?”, “Why should I remain faithful to my wife when she has no interest in being my wife?” It was an extremely testing period for me and I failed the test. I also understand two things now: 1) I didn’t have the tools that I have now and 2) I withdrew from my wife, not the other way round. I stopped showing her love and she responded by ceasing to show me love. I previously felt it was somewhat of an obligation in marriage that you entered it so it should be given and received. Now, I now understand that if you love, you love unconditionally and you appreciate it when it comes your way without expecting it to come again.

You cheated, I get that.

You also found an excuse to cheat. And you also found a way to justify cheating to yourself. Yet you list that as one of your qualities.

Should you pay for that forever ???

Absolutely not....

Yet you really need to dig and find out why you cheated. Not just a superficial scratch on the surface. The real root cause of why you cheated.

I thought I was patient and I’ve discovered I’m not. Like the example earlier with my son, LFW challenged the way I dealt with him and it is showing dividends because I am taking a step back, listening to him, and letting him realise his own mistakes rather than jumping down his throat. My girls though are more of a challenge. I’m definitely working on being more patient and I’ve only out and out yelled at them once. I’m sure my blood pressure has increased though

I think that you are patient, with what YOU want to be patient with.

Little girls are just younger women in training....

Until you learn about Women, you will have trouble with Girls...

Have you read Mars/Venus ???

No I’m not. I cheated on my wife and as recently as two weeks ago my wife overheard me joking with my boss about something she felt very strongly about. I am trying to become more trustworthy and I am still learning how to do so. I’ve not been back to the main website that I abused since May last year and I cut contact with any women my wife felt uncomfortable with in October/November last year (too late by this stage). I am still learning what makes my wife tick and what makes her ticked off and adjusting my behaviour accordingly. I felt that being told off for doing too much housework was funny. She felt like I was taking something away from her and she was incredibly angry because I’d discussed the situation with a third party which is what lead to me cheating initially (not that I’d cheat with my boss, rather that I’d discussed our personal problems with someone other than my wife). It’s a work in progress.

I think that it is okay to do some minor tweaking here, yet you are giving her way too much power over what you want or do if you act simply in accordance to what SHE wants....

This is about you, and how YOU want to be. That is the main reason that she feels the way she does now.

Women don't want someone that they can push over.

Women want a strong man, that is capable of doing things on their own. They want to feel safe, and protected.

And that entirely different from being controlled...

Women want a partner to walk BESIDE them, not in front, or behind.....

It makes sense. I feel like I am a the beginning and I need to learn what each of these things mean to me, my wife, my son, etc. I honestly thought I was being asked to break these down the way I have and didn’t realise you meant it in general terms. I take things very literally. I don’t mind in this sense as it feels like goalsetting to me: determining what I want, prioritising it, determining how I am going to get there and defining what will signify progress to me. I can only hope to get to the same point as you. Right now, I feel I have to re-learn everything and put it into terms I understand.

Just like what I read from AKHope earlier (on Scorp's thread)

The trials of life will come at you from a distance away. It's not something that you want to focus on every single detail of things....

You look at the end goal of consistently being that person, and you ask yourself along the way, "How does this fit into what I am trying to accomplish? "

[Barrybran]

My wife told me this morning that she'd been thinking about the home gym last night. She said that she was angry about it because she had wanted a home gym for a long time and I said no and that now we're separated I go and buy one for myself. I told my wife that I don't recall this conversation and she responded by saying there were several conversations about it. I don't remember any of them. I told her that I understood why she was angry about it. I don't know what I can do about this other than putting a bit more thought into what I buy before I buy it. Honestly though, I bought the gym for myself and now that we're separated, I can only buy things for myself and the kids. If I truly live for myself, what my wife thinks won't come into what I buy. It's very confusing and I feel I have to continue to do what is right for me even if it alienates my wife. I wish there was a magic way to not alienate my wife with what I do.

She disappeared and came back and I told her that while I know I've pissed her off a lot lately, I aprpeciated that she told me her feelings. She responded a few minutes later by saying that she only tells me now because she feels resentment if she doesn't and she knows what she's like when she doesn't tell me. She went on to say that an in-house separation isn't working for her and she will be calling the real estate today to see how two houses will work. I told her I understand why she feels that was and that she can only do what she feels is right. I asked her, to cover all bases, to think about what I can do to make living in this house more comfortable if she chose to continue living here.

She still hasn't mentioned divorce and she mentioned about couples working it out by having space through separate houses. She said that there were couples who have figured it out after being separated while under one roof. She did say that they parted amicably though so I don't know whether she meant that the separation was amicable and that made it easier to live together while they worked things out or they just went their separate ways completely. My wife says that she needs more space and that I'm always here at home and that she doesn't feel we can work it out under one roof. The tone of the conversation didn't feel like a "working it out" one. It felt more like an "I need to get away from you" conversation.

[cat04]

Barry,

Your wife is beginning to feel the realities of her decisions and she isnt liking it. She is going to feel anger and resentment from watching you live for yourself but she will accuse you of not accepting things if you dont. It is simply part of the process.

Dont let it make you stray from your path.

[Barrybran]

She seemed pretty convincing that it was more about being hypocritical about money (controlling her then spending freely myself) than about me getting a life. Don't get me wrong, I'm still glad I bought it and I'll use it a lot. She just seems pretty pissed off that I would go and spend that kind of money on myself when I kept a pretty tight lid on spending while we were together.

[Lostforwords]

B,
I can agree with Cat's assessment of the situation completely, but there is also lessons to be learned in your last post.

Let me start with a point....In life you can true ownership of your actions or you can make things about you? They sound the same, but are very different. In the being about you....You do things and react to how it affects others from the standpoint of...This is how I do things, This is how I want things, and this is how it is going to be (A very common theme for you actually).

Now in taking ownership of your actions....You do things for you, but with others in mind. You are aware of how things you do affect others....You still have the control of the things you do, but you accept the responsibility of how they affect those around you. Your son for example, it used to be very much your way or the highway with him. As you have changed your relationship with him to being about ownership of action for each of you....and even more so understanding and communication, the relationship is changing. It sounds like he is taking ownership of the things he does and accepts responsibility of it...and you listen and respond better...taking ownership of your reaction to his actions.

Now let's get to the gym.....You comments on the conversation tell me you listened to her, You did a good job paying attention, but you did not HEAR her.

The root of the conversation was not about the gym....nor was it actually about you buying the gym. Nor was it about you doing things for yourself.....it was totally about you not listening and hearing.

Now you may or may not remember any conversations about buying a gym in the past, but that is really irrelevant. We could switch the content to many other items and the the same scenario could be said....Dealing with the kids, holidays, parents staying at the house, grocery shopping, etc. These are all things that have come up since you have been on the board that could be inserted into the place of the gym.

Now we are looking at the old B....and yes it has to be done. To change the future, you definitely have to understand the past. The old B did things his way....not anybody else's way...His way because he was always right. Part of this "always right mentality" is that you didn't listen.....and not being heard eventually leads to resentment.

The real heart of your conversation last night was this....Your wife resents you for not listening to her side of things. Not giving her thoughts, opinions, feelings, etc a moment of thought as yours were the ones that matter. Yes, you did buy the gym for yourself and you have that right. So don't feel bad about that or frustrated....The frustration should be that in the past you did not acknowledge your wife's perspective on things and that is something you are working on.

Take the conversation as a lesson on how you you communicated in the past and work towards changing it.

[Barrybran]

So I'm supposed to live for myself now and remember when I didn't consider my wife's feelings in the past so I'm able to live independently while being thoughtful of others in the future?

[Lostforwords]

LOL....Yes.

You learn from the past, when you weren't thoughtful of others, so you can change in the present, and be a better man in the future.

You are hitting it right on the head....You can live independently while be aware of others.

If you truly want an interdependent relationship with people....What we are discussing is a first step must.

A good example is our relationship. We both have our lives that are independent from each other, but we come together to discuss what is going on. I don't tell you what to do...we just discuss what can be done. You in the end make that final decision. Now if I told you that a,b, and c have to be done and there is no other way....That is me putting my way on you with no regards to your thoughts or feelings.

Now if I suggest a, b, or c based upon our discussions.....and then you make the decision. That is closer to interdependent.

I am not telling you what path you need to walk....I am only offering you what paths may be there from my perspective and you get to decide which path to follow.

[Barrybran]

Ok, thanks LFW and Cat. I was confused because I did something for myself and felt good about it and at the same time, I felt horrible for missing how it made my wife feel as I could see how she felt controlled through our relationship. Overall though, my feeling is that I've bought the gym for me to add to the life I'm trying to live independent of my wife and while I'm upset at how it's made her feel, she's chosen this route and until I have an opportunity to be thoughtful of her, I feel I should keep doing things for me.

So yesterday, I spent the morning at home with the kids. I promised them we would build and paint little wooden things my wife and I bought for them on Sunday and I told them it wouldn't be getting done first thing in the morning (my kids have been waking up before 6:30am). As the morning passed, my girls decided to be little b*****s and I felt myself getting angry and frustrated. I put some cartoons on in the other room and took a time out for myself. I don't want to yell at them or smack them and they were really pushing me. I calmed down and let the kids through the house again and a while later, my girls started again and this time, my son started being annoying too. My blood started to boil again and again I sent the kids out of the room I was in so I could settle down. By the time I'd settled down again, the babysitter was due in half an hour and we didn't have time to paint the wooden things. My kids were disappointed and I was too.

I don't want to let my kids down. I also know I don't have the energy to spend time nicely with them when their behaviour is poor. I felt really proud of myself for not yelling yesterday even though I got close several times. I felt upset that they were upset that I said they could paint their things and we didn't end up doing it. I felt more upset when I got home from work to find that my wife had let my son start painting his and she knows I told them we would do it. I'm trying to keep my word to my kids AND they're frustrating me to the point of needing time out for myself. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

[tough spot]

My frustrations with my kids generally originate from several sources. I don't like conflict and they pick at each other. Drives me crazy, can't they just get along? I have to step back because for some reason I feel I am responsible somehow for their actions (obviously with kids, that is somewhat true, not true at all with fellow adults though). I want to control them so that they act the way i want. Which leads to expectations.

They aren't doing what I want them to do, which is to get along. I should really expect that they are kids and that they will constantly pick at each other. Then I wouldn't be 'let down' but rather pleasantly suprised when they did get along!

And last, I get frustrated when I can't do something they ask for. Like yesterday, I took them out to fly kites. Now while I was helping my daughter, my son asked me three times for help with his kite. Some weird codependecy thing gets me upset when I can't fufill a perceived need in someone I love. Each time he asked I got a little more irritated.

I do know that when I discipline them, it has to be in a calm and cool manner. And, I can't be wishy washy over the long haul. Discipline must be done immediately, consistently, and ideally without any anger. A simple, 'you did this and therefore you get this'.

Anyway, definately a challenging subject, the disciplining of children. Perhaps a warning next time that 'if X keeps happening, we won't have time to do painting'. Then the responsibility is all theirs and you just wind up with a small sense of dissapointment....

[Barrybran]

Thanks tough spot. I'm not sure what to do at the moment so I gave myself time outs yesterday to calm down instead of flying off the handle at the kids. I'm proud of myself for not snapping. Unfortunately, I also let the kids down by not doing their woodwork pieces with them. My wife sent me a message this morning noting that I hadn't done the woodworking with them. I'm a little pissed off at this because she's not in the trenches dealing with the kids. I understand that she doesn't care about what I do at the moment, even if I'm busting my butt to treat the kids better and be a better parent.

Speaking of the message, she sent a pretty snarky one this morning:

Here's some communication for you since I didn't actually have energy to tell you last night:
D4 vomitted on the lounge. Could you deal with the cushions outside the laundry this afternoon? Babysitter knows since she was here but she's going to keep an eye on her today.
S6 will be apologising to you today. He asked if he could open his craft thing to look at. I said ok. This morning I noticed he's started it. I told him that you'll be upset because you were supposed to do it with them. Not sure why you didn't yesterday.
Could you take chicken out this afternoon when you get home. I'll cook again.
Thought I'd save you assuming why/how things are around the house.
Just remember assume is to make an ass out of u and me.

As much as I don't like her attitude towards me right now, and I deserve it, her communication is clear. She asked me to tell her how I feel, I did by telling her our communication was poor and she's addressed that. That's all I asked for. I don't know where the part about S6 apologising came from. I didn't acknowledge this comment with my wife. Instead, I discussed it with S6 when I saw him after work. Anyway, my response to my wife was this:

Point taken and thank you for writing it down. Thanks for letting me know about D4. The girls were causing trouble yesterday so we didn't get to the woodwork. I'll take chicken out for you. I'm going to try harder to not assume things. Enjoy your day.

[Lostforwords]

B,

Good stuff....Your wife was clear and concise. As you noted, this is what you asked for. At some points in your marriage you might have seen it as nagging, but in reality it is setting clear expectations of what needs to be done....with no assuming (I use the assume statement all the time).

I hope you were successful in explaining to S6 that their behavior was why you did not do the project. Give the kids responsibility for the consequences of their actions.....The girls it is harder to teach, but nobody said being a parent is easy. I will say though.....nothing has affected my kids behavior patterns more than letting them know when I am disappointed in them. Just a nugget of parenting advice to pass along.

I like how tough spot thinks about parenting...That is the experience of having children. I would read that post a bunch of times.....There is a lot there.

[Barrybran]

My wife was never much of a nagger. Her way was to shut up shop and not talk to me. I've discovered through this process just how little we really talked about meaningful things. I feel that my wife feels pressured now that I'm opening up, hence her plan to move out, yet I feel that it's an important step towards a more respectful relationship, whatever that entails. She's not going to put up with my nonsense and I'm not going to tolerate poor communication.

Speaking of moving out, my wife asked me tonight what I would prefer with regards to our living situation. It was a hard conversation as I don't know what I prefer to be honest. My wife doesn't really have an opinion on it either or isn't prepared to share with me yet if she has one. On one hand, I would like to leave the kids in the house we have and have my wife and I switch between places, something my wife suggested back in January. On the other hand, if we are to have our own space, I want my own space; somewhere where things will stay where I put them, where I can clean as much or as little as I want without repercussion, somewhere I can sleep in the same bed and shower in the same shower each night. I said to my wife that sharing a place away from the kids will still mean each other being in our space even when the other isn't around. I'll just wait and see what my wife says about it now.

[cat04]

Ok barry, where to start?

You have some great people posting to you. Mach, knows what he is talking about. Lost brings up great points too. I love the topic of interdependence/codependence/dependent/and independent. Those are terms you really need to become familiar with. As you learn what they are, you will be able to see the patterns in your relationships.

The kids...they are kids. They are going to be noisy, dirty, and drive you nuts. You need to find a level of acceptance with it. So that you dont get so easily frustrated. Pick you battles wisely because there will be lots of them.

My S is almost 20. BF's S is 13. They both have this hugly annoying habit of fidgiting. I mean constant movement of some sort. Makes me want to ask them to leave the house. For me, that is one of my battles, at the dinner table only. Other times, i do my best to ignore it because it is part of who they are. Took a long time to learn that.

Your W...well i hate the tone that comes across in her communication with you. However i understand it to a small degree.

By demanding clear concise communication...you are controlling things. Sort of a theme that is hard to escape.

We can try forever to not be controlling however enforcing boundaries is going to make us appear controlling to someone on the planet.

So try to explore these things a little as i have already typed too much from my phone and my frustration with touch screen is beginning to rise lol...

[Barrybran]

Lol at the touchscreen bit. I understand how asking for and expecting better communication could be seen as controlling. The big thing I've learned through this process is that my wife and I need to find who we are and part of that is determining things we like and dislike, things we will tolerate and non-negotiables. For me, better communication is a non-negotiable. It either happens or our relationship will forever be strained. My wife will have her own list of non-negotiables too and that's fine. Don't get me wrong, I know I have to improve my communication as well. It's going to be a huge red flag in any future relationship if I can't communicate effectively with my partner.

[cat04]

I understand the non negotiable. I also understand WHY the communication is important to you.

Key point is you only control how you communicate with her. Or anyone. Set the example. With how you communicate. Monkey see monkey do...it really works.

[Barrybran]

OK, I get you now. Thanks.

[Barrybran]

Tonight wasn't pretty. I cleaned some parts of the house today and made sure to leave some for my wife. I wasn't too happy with where it was at but figured it would save some dramas. My wife got home and was angry because it looked like I hadn't done anything (her words). I told her whether I clean everything, nothing or do some things and leave some for her, she's not happy with me. I should have followed the roster she set out and STFU instead.

As she went to bed she wrote me a message:

"Im going to write this down instead of saying it because I cannot talk to you without getting angry.
I do not want to be in a house or relationship for that matter where I am constantly angry.
I don't deserve that. And like I was saying previously, we need distance. Not under each others noses.
Things like not cleaning or cleaning too much are stressing both of us.
I suggested the roster as a means of knowing what's expected of both of us. Some direction and boundaries in place.
These obviously fail.
I cannot live with you. I know the kids need us both, but not at the expense of each other's stress levels or emotions.
I hate you. I've said it several times and the more I'm around you, I'm questioning why I ever let it get to this point.
I resent you more each day. I cannot go over everything that happened to get it here. You know the problems.
I really do think it's best if you move out.
You can be free to clean as little or as much without me around. You can find your own happy medium.
You can buy things without having to worry about what affect it'll have on me. You'll be able to have privacy to do whatever you want to do."

My response was as follows:

"I felt the roster created a more work-like environment at home. I understand you were trying to make an effort and I will review it.

I have no intention of moving out at the present time. I understand that you don't want to live with me and I will work with you toward a mutually acceptable arrangement.

I understand that we have different opinions on the marriage right now. I will not be doing anything to jeopardise it any more than I already have."

There was more that followed and it followed the same vein. So, I stuffed this one up. I did go to the real estate today to find out what they had available and the person who looks after it won't be back until Monday. I've felt for a while now that different places would be best and would be a lot easier. I didn't sign up for easy though; I signed up for change (so far, no good). I need to think some more about the arrangements. The house I'm in is quite a task to look after on my own. In saying that, it's my home, it's a great place for the kids and there's a lot I still want to do with it. Also, my wife chose to separate and I feel that she should face the consequences that come with that choice, not me.

I know I need to go dim or even dark. I just need to shut up and stay out of her way completely. I know I need to just stick to the roster and keep the path smooth, even though the path is leading out the door right now. Once she does leave, I feel I need to go LRT for my own benefit. I should be able to do that without much or any contact with her as the kids will be at school or with the babysitter much of the time. The only time I'll need to see my wife is when she picks the kids up on her way home from work. It's all pretty raw though so I'll see how things go.

[stumps]

Someone who is more knowledgable about it may want to chime in and contradict me, but my wife at one point also wanted me to move out. I was advised by a family friend that under no circumstances should I do so because, if I did, it might cause some issues for me custody-wise, particularly if the split ended up getting ugly.

Particularly because my wife already had another place she could go (her parents), I ultimately told her that while I 100% understood her feelings, I had no intentions of moving out but that she was obviously free to go whenever she felt ready. She hasn't left yet, so...

[Barrybran]

My wife paused for a while and continued the conversation and I'm having that conversation now. Hopefully I handle it correctly. So far I've said that I respect her choice for me to leave and that me leaving is her choice and not mine.

[Drew]

Do not move out of the family home.

[Barrybran]

She's putting the pressure on. She's saying I'm trying to control the situation. I'm just listening and validating at the moment. I won't be going anywhere. As I said to her, this is my home regardless of the mistakes I have made.

For those not aware of my situation, I cheated on my wife online and she's been dealing with it for the past year and a bit and it's really coming to a head now.

[tough spot]

yes, you cannot move out without at least having a temporary custody hearing/arrangement which can't happen until you file divorce paperwork.

the temporary custody arrangement will protect you from the image of 'abandoning the home' and hence affecting your chances with custody in the future

[Barrybran]

Thanks. She's very adamant that I'm to move out. I've managed to remain calm, listen and validate and while she hasn't softened, she's talking about space now. She suggested I sleep in the shed. I said I'd continue to sleep in the spare room and I'll think about ways to spend less time in the house. She fired back about spending time with random women and discussing our situation. I feel bad for my wife, I really do. I'm confident I'm on the right path though.

[Barrybran]

She said at one point that if I don't move out it will increase the hostility which will bring about divorce faster. First time she's threatened me with divorce. I didn't acknowledge that, validated her feelings and reiterated that I will make the environment as comfortable as possible for her.

[Mach1]

Stay YOUR course...

Keep working on you, and answering those questions..

She is the one that wants this, then she can be the one to facilitate it....

She is flailing around, because you gave her what she wanted (by not cleaning) , and now she doesn't want that either....

Stay calm...no reason for both of you to spin out....

[cat04]

^^^Exactly.

Let her do the heavy lifting and dont panic.

[Barrybran]

Thanks Mach. She's telling me to "take sh!t seriously and man up" now. I responded with this:

"W, I am taking things more seriously than I ever have before. I'm manning up by fighting for my marriage, not leaving it. I don't expect you to join me as I've put you through a lot of hurt and I understand that you feel you will never trust me again. I have a long time to live, you are a fantastic woman, our kids are wonderful and I will fight for the most important thing in my life. I may have been a moron in the past and I may have trouble understanding some things now. I know that I've let you down and I am going to make that right. You deserve the best. That doesn't mean you deserve someone else. You are worth every good thing you get and I hope I can give it to you some day. THAT is how I will man up."

[Mach1]

Thanks Mach. She's telling me to "take sh!t seriously and man up" now. I responded with this:

"W, I am taking things more seriously than I ever have before. I'm manning up by fighting for my marriage, not leaving it. I don't expect you to join me as I've put you through a lot of hurt and I understand that you feel you will never trust me again. I have a long time to live, you are a fantastic woman, our kids are wonderful and I will fight for the most important thing in my life. I may have been a moron in the past and I may have trouble understanding some things now. I know that I've let you down and I am going to make that right. You deserve the best. That doesn't mean you deserve someone else. You are worth every good thing you get and I hope I can give it to you some day. THAT is how I will man up."

That is still, a LOT of words....

Words that include guilt, being defensive, pursuing, and justification of your past actions....

Stop trying to talk your way out of something that you acted your way into....

A simple..."I understand how you could see it that way"...should suffice...

[Barrybran]

Ok thanks. Your way is how I handled probably 95% of the conversation so I feel good about it. I admit I lost my cool a little. The conversation is over now. I trying to learn how to have conversations like this without saying too much or sounding like a recording.

Tomorrow is an awkward day because I don't start work until 10am and my wife is home all day. It's a public holiday here too so I can't just go out for breakfast unless I go to work. I might be spending extended periods of time in the shed or at the park for a while. Does anyone have any ideas how I can give my wife space without moving out? I know GAL is a standard response. I still have to eat, shower and sleep at home and I can't keep the kids out until all hours of the night.

[cat04]

You need to be comfortable there. If she is uncomfortable then she can remove herself from the situation.

Personally, i found solace and peace in my room but i refused to spend all my time there.

[tough spot]

If you figure it out, let me know! My wife and I are constantly at a level 8 stress. I am sitting here thinking I shouldn't let her stress for the situation make me stressful (eg, detach). But then the hope to R pulls me back in like a yo-yo.

Neither one of us will move out until we get a temporary custodial arrangement (court date is set for 5-6). To be honest, my lawyer told me we could go to that hearing and he could say 'since they are living together and both paying housing expenses, there is no reason to have a temporary custody or child support put in place'. So technically, I could stay in the house even longer....

I don't think that is best though. We both need some space. I just can't believe she is fighting me on the 50/50 though. That is the sticker to the situation. Otherwise I would most likely already be out......because there is no way I know of for me to give her space and us be not only with no hope of a R, but even merely living together in some sort of peace.

[Barrybran]

I hear you. My wife hasn't brought up any legal things until her first threat of divorce last night. I get how she feels. I feel as though having our own places would be best now. I thought about moving out and the more I think about it the more I think "why?" As I said to my wife last night, this is my home. I've set some things up, I have little projects to do and also, my wife chose to separate and my wife is choosing to live in separate homes so why should I have to arrange the logistics and bear the associated costs of moving?

I'll have a think today about sharing another house with my wife. It was her idea in January to have a second place and have us switch between them instead of the kids. I can honestly say I'd rather have my own place. If she wants to stay and I want to stay then maybe it's best to meet in the middle and find a place for us to switch between. The most difficult part about this is that we would still be jointly responsible for costs and that somewhat defeats the purpose of separation I feel.

[cat04]

Barry,

I am copying something from Crimson's thread that Sandi2 wrote yesterday. As I read it, I thought of you. Read this and think about it, the concepts of forgivness and detatching.

Ever heard about the woman who was wheeled into the delivery room to have a baby......and she kept saying she changed her mind? True story!

Okay, what about a young girl who is barely in her teens who discovers she is pregnant, and she falls before God with her heart broken, ashamed, humiliated, and embarrassed. She sincerely asks God to forgive her. How will she know if He forgave her? Will she go by how she feels afterward, or how people treat her, or what happens in her life? What would you tell her, Crimson?

Let me go a step further. What if she questioned if she had been truly forgiven based on the fact she was still very much pregnant? Should she expect God to vanish the pregnancy to let her know He forgave her? Maybe I should rephrase that question, IDK. I am not saying we should tell Him how to run His business, but on the other hand........we seem to have certain expectations as proof of His love, forgiveness, and such.

I would like to hear your comments on this. In the meantime, I will give you what I believe. (Which certainly doesn't mean i think you should believe it since I do, but I like sharing this topic, so indulge me please.). I believe He forgives us based on His divine character, and not on how hard we work at being forgiven. I believe it is an act of faith, based on His promise in I Jn. 1:9. Our part is to confess it, and His part is forgiving, and the faith is believing He did what He said He would do.

I think if we believe (accept) it, then the feelings of peace, comfort, etc. can follow. But if we doubt......b/c certain things we had hoped for doesn't come about........we are really defeating ourselves and being our own worst enemy.

Just as God would forgive that young pregnant girl and love her throughout the whole nine months........she would still have the baby. It doesn't mean she wasn't forgiven. It doesn't mean God is punishing her. He is the only one who can take our faults and turn into something good...if we keep trusting Him.

We stand in the way of our own happiness.........and our doubt and hanging on to how we wanted God to work things for us....can prevent blessings coming our way. For all you know there is the greatest love of your life just waiting for you to give all of this stuff you are carrying aroind to God so you can begin to move her direction. But it can't happen b/c you won't lay it down.

Look, from day one I have told you to detach, stop contacting & sending her pictures, stop being available all the time, etc. And, since day one you have fought it tooth and nail. Even when others would tell you the same thing, you fought it and came back with the same talk as you are basically doing now. You never DETACHED! You were always AVAILABLE to her. And your reasoning was you feared she would believe you had not truly changed. After you really did change, you continued to hold on to that fear of what she would think about you. Even when you are told how a WAW needs to SUFFER some type of LOSS, you seem to turn it back to feeling you must show her goodness and kindness. But you admit you don't know if it is your own thinking or from above. You are asking 25yrs what goodness looks like.......(or something to that effect.). Why can't you just try dropping the rope, or even just the LRT? I mean, what can you lose?

You have been one of my favorite people here ever since you first came. But sometimes, Crimson, I want to turn you over my apron (as my grandmother use to say).......but I suppose I will give a hug instead. ((Crimson)). But seriously, this entire self destruction and torment since you have heard about OM is b/c you did not go through those BASIC DBing steps. You improved yourself as a man and a father, yes! But unless I have forgotten something (which entirely possible) the only thing I remember you doing that is recommended, is you did go out for a while. But I haven't heard about that in a really long time. But you never dropped your XW. You thought you would simply DIE if the D went through. But it did, and I had hoped you would finally start taking those DBing steps. You kept doing the same thing you are doing now. If there was ever a time you should have stepped back and let her wing it without you......but nothing changed. Then she moves back home for a very brief time and does it to you all over again. What did you do? Certainly not the basic DB steps in detaching, being unavailable, etc. So is there any wonder why you feel devasted again?

I just have to wonder how much of that fear she would not believe your changes were lasting......is really Crimson's excuse for not applying the LRT? I ask you again. What more could you lose? Plus, if there is ever going to be a time.......this it it, Crimson! I will tell you what you stand to lose. Your very last chance to apply it.

[Barrybran]

Is the point that you may never truly know if you've been forgiven so forget about looking for forgiveness and do what is right for you, and if you do so, you'll be looked after?

[Barrybran]

I've been doing a fair bit of thinking about living arrangements the past couple of days. I feel good that I stood up for myself last night by saying that I won't be moving out. It's my home and I feel I shouldn't have to wear the costs of my wife's decisions. With everything that has gone on I feel that separate addresses are the way to go. I'm struggling to leave my wife alone and even if I can do so successfully, as my wife said, I'm "always here" in the house and I don't want to leave the house just because she can't stand the sight of me at the moment. There is nothing to do in town and we're approaching winter so I want to spend my evenings at home in comfort, not outside the house.

I tried researching ideas for space for in-house separations and the house I'm in is difficult to make it work. We have to pass one another to do what we need to do around the house and there's no true escape. I could go to the shed as my wife suggested. There's nothing down there though. I could hook up a TV and DVD player. I could do that in the spare bedroom too.

I've also given more thought today to the idea of renting a second place with my wife for my wife and I to switch between instead of moving the kids around. There are some huge cons to this for me. It will help to create some distance between my wife and I though and that appears to be very important to her at the moment.

I'm kind of stumped about what to do about this at the moment. All I seem to do is further alienate my wife and I just want to make things more comfortable for the both of us.

Does anyone have any ideas how I can create space within the home?

[tough spot]

I can't figure out a way to create 'space' within the home. Have been living with her since the BD in oct 13....just keeps getting more tense. Of course, we are still fighting about 50/50 custody and that is a huge one for me. Actually, at this point, the only one.

The getting another house isn't a bad idea. Limits the housing situation to two rather than 3, if you chose to keep the marital home so the kids didn't have to shuffle. However, just as my wife and I are agreed (so far) on 'nesting' (keeping the marital home, she moving to her mom's, then when her turn in the marital home, me moving to my dad's) we definitely needs some ground rules.

The only thing I have come up with so far is there has to be a certain amount of cleanliness and food in the fridge (upon handing over the house) plus never having a 'friend' over. I mean, we will be in essence using the same bed, at different times of course, but I certainly don't want any action going on in it and then me having to sleep in it!

By sharing an offsite location, you are now doubling the amount of potential conflict. However, I do think it is the best arrangement for the kids. Both my wife's lawyer and mine have told us we are crazy. My buddies have told me I am crazy, even my IC says she hasn't ever seen it last for more than a few months.

However, once again....best for the kids. And, about all we can reasonably do on our budget. Even if we both lived in the house full time....divorce causes increased expenses through worse tax brackets, separate health care, separate auto insurance, blah blah blah.

So I guess I would recommend getting a temporary custody agreement first, then you can try a few options. Until that happens you just simply can't leave the marital home.

[tough spot]

Oh, and I forgot....if one of the rules (at least for us) is never having a friend over at the marital home....can't really also say that about sharing an offsite place (if one of you two gets seriously involved in another relationship).

No perfect answers here. Sure would be a lot easier if our WAW would get their heads out of their a$$.............

[Barrybran]

That's the hard part, no perfect answers. Right now, I'm just hoping for anything to make the situation easier. I know I need to pull my head in more than anything. I'm going to set up my bedroom as a living quarters and try to stay out of my wife's view, despite some practical limitations. I've reread about giving her space and the same thing keeps coming up: make yourself scarce. I know I haven't done that. I have no intention of going out just because my wife is home though I'll try taking the kids to the park more as well as fixing up a bike in the shed. I don't know if it'll help. It'll be something new and if not seeing me or barely seeing me helps ease the tension then it'll be worthwhile.

So Plan A is to set up my bedroom as a living quarters and Plan B will be to rent a second place with my wife. Plan C (or perhaps, Plan B.1) is my wife moves out. I'd like to try and make things work with both of us in the same house first.

[tough spot]

here is a question for both of us. If we were truly detached enough wouldn't living with our spouses not be all that bad? wouldn't we be relatively stress free because we wouldn't be concerned with what they were thinking?

And in turn, since we would be more relaxed, wouldn't that by default make our WAWs less stressed as well? We would be acting 'as if' with a PMA, possibly not only lowering the WAW stress level but changing their perception of us?

Riddle me that Mr Barrybran!

[Barrybran]

You're right and I've known that for months. I've not figured out what I'm supposed to do and I keep digging myself a bigger hole to the point that my wife wants me out. Neither of us are going anywhere (as far as I know) so I have to figure something out and I've taken the first steps by setting up a private living space.

My interpretation of what you're saying is to forget about what she thinks and just act as if everything is fine between us. I feel I've done enough damage that she'll tell me to F-off if I try and get friendly with her, hence trying avoidance and hoping that by keeping out of her face the tension will ease.

[Barrybran]

A thought just crossed my mind. My wife and I separated for six months before we got married. She was going to move out and instead, I offered to move out as she and the kids were stable and I had to get away. I was out of the house, and the country, two days later. At the time I had time and money and I thought we were done forever. I had no legal ties to the kids (S6 and D4) and I didn't know if my wife would encourage me being a father to them if I'd stayed. This time round, I have a job, the kids are older and our bonds are stronger and I've set my house up as a home. I want to stay and I intend to do so.

The thought I had though was this. I want to hold on to this place in case my wife and I reconcile as it's a great house for us and the kids. It's far too big to manage on my own if my wife does leave and if I were appropriately protected (time with kids) and compensated (it's her idea to live in different houses so I'm not footing the bill) I'd be OK with moving. Are there any circumstances where I could be the one who moves out?

[Lostforwords]

B,

As TS said above...both of your (you and TS) current problems are largely a result of yourselves. You talk about detaching, you ask about detaching, you have garnered answers to detaching, yet you are not succeeding in it.

You talk about how hard it is to gal and you come up with reasons to explain why you aren't. I would like to see you change your thoughts from why you can't gal to why you should be. Make gal'ing a goal for yourself.It can be with the kids, with co-workers, or just yourself. For the next week make it a goal to walk (with the kids) or run at least 1 hour everyday. No excuses....if you don't have a stroller then carry the kids...No running sneakers...then get some. No more excuses and more doing.

As for the separate households. First, I definitely agree with making your bedroom a one room apartment. Stay in there and it is your space (the shed to). I also think you should consult a lawyer before anybody moves out. Rules are different in other countries and you need to be aware of the kids (as a side note...You also need to think about CS in the future. The truth is 2 of the kids aren't really yours and you need to think on that).

I also think that you need to stand firm in that you are not leaving your family. You did it in the past in 2 days, you did it by cheating, and now it is coming up again. Now that is a 180 for you big time.

Finally....Work on Mach's questions....burn them into your mind and soul.

Nothing great happens when you hold back.

[Barrybran]

Thanks LFW. I haven't considered seeing a lawyer yet. So far, I'm standing firm on staying and leaving the decision to leave to my wife. I've set up my room today so I'll hibernate there as much as possible and I've just refreshed myself with Sandi's rules. The kids are back tomorrow night so that will be the first big test of how workable this arrangement is. My wife's brother and his fiance are staying with us for a week from Monday and that will be another big test. My wife has told them that we're separated though I'm not sure if she's told them why. Fun times ahead anyway.

As for the older two kids, my wife says she'll continue to treat me as their father. They call me Dad, I'm the only Dad S6 has ever known and I've been more of a Dad to D4 in a few months than her real Dad has been her whole life. We're arranging another round of mediation and my wife plans to include me and not tell D4's bio Dad about our separation 1) because she hasn't figured out what she wants between us and 2) because my wife feels that it has nothing to do with D4's bio Dad because of his attitude towards fatherhood while I'm down in the trenches every day.

I haven't forgotten about Mach's questions. I've put them on hold while I sort through these couple of issues so I don't start new threads within a thread. I'll come back to them when things settle down a bit.

[Barrybran]

Also, is there a typo in this part? I'm not sure I follow what you're saying here:

I also think that you need to stand firm in that you are not leaving your family. You did it in the past in 2 days, you did it by cheating, and now it is coming up again. Now that is a 180 for you big time.

[cat04]

Tough spot,

You are right on about the detatching. Or lack of. It is necessary. I lived with my X for 4 years after the bomb. Even after we both started dating... It really is possible.

And it is what I was hoping that Barry would take away from Sandi's post that I hijacked to his thread.

Barry,

Forgivness is important. Only you can define it though. For me, I agree with Sandi, it is in a huge sense an act of faith.

However I was hoping you would see how important detatchment is and how not detatched you are.

Detatchment doesn't mean giving up. It means not allowing the thoughts and actions of another define you. It means if you want to clean the house, you clean the house. If you don't, you don't. If either of those things bother her, that is her problem. Not yours. And if she comments, she comments. You are not trying to effect any sort of outcome or reaction, you are simply living your life. Make sense?

Work on Mach's questions...we have all dealt with threads within threads around here...stop trying to control things.

[Barrybran]

My wife is talking to me right now. She is saying she wants to move out and saying that I am controlling the situation by staying here and forcing her hand to move out. I'm just validating and asking questions. She's also going into details of my cheating.

I'm confused about what I have to forgive. I cheated on my wife so I thought my wife had to forgive, not me forgive her.

I understand the part about cleaning if I want to. What's confused me is that my wife feels that she's not contributing to the house so if I clean everything, I'm not listening to her and considering her feelings and if I clean nothing, I'm lazy. I'm trying to find a middle ground so I can do what I want while considering my wife's feelings.

[Barrybran]

Just while my wife and I are talking, I've listened and validated and she's disregarding what I want (to stay in the house) citing that "what you want does not come into the equation. You lost all rights to say what you want when you [censored] up and caused this problem."

I can't leave the house and my wife is refusing to work toward a middle ground (shared apartment?). Am I supposed to just stand my ground or am I missing something really important here? I am trying to work with my wife and I'm just making her more and more angry. This is going into territory I'm really not familiar with. Any thoughts?

[Barrybran]

She followed up with this:

"It's as if I'm the one being punished for your indiscretions.
I didn't do anything wrong.
I didn't betray you. I didn't break your trust. I didn't talk to you like you were beneath me..... and yet I'm the one being given the only option to move out. Haven't I suffered enough of your [censored]?"

I get that we're all here because we've not been good to our spouses. I've really messed up, albeit the biggest incidents occurring a year ago, and I feel that my wife is right. My refusal to leave, as just as it is (where do I go? why not stay and work on things?), is pushing my wife further away. Honestly, I don't feel she should have to move out because I cheated on her. I feel that working on our relationship (not now) is more constructive than me moving out and this is my home.

I feel like I'm missing something here. Surely it's not all "stand your ground and make your spouse do the heavy lifting." Is it? I mean, I stuffed up, not her. I'd really like some understanding right now because I do genuinely feel that she is right as to why she can't live with me right now, even if I disagree as to her proposed course of action.

[cat04]

Barry,

You are very literal. The cleaning was simply an example and your answer was that of a person who is clearly not detatched at all.

The leaving the house thing...

Your W is correct in that you made the mistake. However she is the one wanting the separation not you.

And until you consult with a L in regards to your legal rights if this were to go towards divorce, you need to be very careful. In America, abandonment of the marital property (ie, moving out) is a very big deal.

Yes, you W needs to be able to forgive you, and I don't know if she can, but you also need to be able to forgive yourself. That may actually be more important in the long run.

[Barrybran]

I am very literal and I know it is a problem. It's probably why LFW suggested Asperger's. I feel I know when I do and don't understand things as well as when I'm not sure and I want to be sure about the things that I understand. The way I see it, if I understand things, I can make more appropriate decisions, act more thoughtfully and so on and so forth. If I don't understand things I risk more problems, most notably, through miscommunication.

I don't understand your point about the cleaning though. My wife has told me that she feels that she isn't contributing to the house because I take on all the jobs. I take that information on board and make my own decision. I get that. If I clean anyway, I'm not listening to my wife. I understand that I'm not detached. Surely I don't just do what I want to though. I thought the point was to be my own person while considering other's feelings. Am I still missing something here?

On a side note, it looks like I'll have to make an appointment with a lawyer on Monday :-( I think if I can find a way to move out and still have the kids half the time without any negative legal repercussions, that'll be the way to go. I get that I have to stay for now because my wife is the one choosing to separate. Detached or not, I do feel she has a point and staying is only going to make things worse.

[Barrybran]

Seeing the lawyer could be a lengthy process so is there a way I can handle this with my wife to try and keep the peace while seeking advice? Do I ask her to be patient while seeking advice? Do I not mention I'm seeing a lawyer and if she moves out in the meantime, so be it?

[Barrybran]

Rightyo, my wife has gone to sleep and the message I posted from her earlier was the last one she sent. I told her I would follow it up with her tomorrow. I've settled down a bit and I see that she is the one making the decision so she is the one who has to act on it, regardless of my contribution towards her feelings. Her point was that I cheated so why should she move out and I agree with her.

I've drafted up a message that I would like some feedback on. I will have to consult a lawyer before agreeing to move out. I would like some feedback on how I can handle the situation with my wife and the potential time delay that may arise from having to wait to see a lawyer. Here's my message draft:

"W, I feel incredibly conflicted about our situation. I let you down in the worst way possible. I understand why you want me to move out. At the same time, separation and living in different places are your decisions. I understand that you have to do what is right for you. I will not leave you or the kids though. If there is a way we can achieve what we both want (her: me moving out; me: ease the tension, equal time with kids, legally protected) I would like to find a way."

[ye21]

Seeing the lawyer could be a lengthy process so is there a way I can handle this with my wife to try and keep the peace while seeking advice? Do I ask her to be patient while seeking advice? Do I not mention I'm seeing a lawyer and if she moves out in the meantime, so be it?

Hey Barry, first of all breath.

Most of us go thrue this, once our Spouse says that they want D and all that, they get in the place where Hitler was nice and we caused the war....
We believe its true because we have low self steem, and basically because we want them back we take aaaaalll responsability for this situation.

Even deeper, we think we deserve this..... So they get to the point where they are manipulating and abussing because they feel stronger and in control...at this point all you can do its have compassion and accept that they feel like that, but "you dont deserve" this things ok?

She wants you out of the house....thats her opinion but it doesnt have to be the one you agree with, you dont have to leave the house., even if she doesnt like it.


I am trying to work with my wife and I'm just making her more and more angry. This is going into territory I'm really not familiar with.

Here is the cause of all the problems you are having now....you are trying to work with her... She has told you she wants a D and doesnt work on none of this, stop all that behaviour and focus on yourself, work in what it will make you happier, otherways this is gonna cost you a high emotional price.

Respecting her decission, even if its hard its what you have to work on.

Ok she wants D? Well fine, she has to find her own place and take care of "her decission" by herself, you cant work with her on that unless you want a D, its as simple as that.

[Lostforwords]

B,

My statement was confusing....Just a symptom of something I am currently going through. That said, You have left the family twice in the past...Once on a 6 month separation and once by cheating. Now you are faced with the decision once again to leave....So staying would be a 180 from past behaviors.

As for A LOT of the other stuff....It comes down to detaching.

As for the forgiveness.....You just have to live...Just live.

[Barrybran]

Ye, my wife wants me out of the house. She's only mentioned divorce once and that was yesterday when she was angry and upset and telling me she wanted me out.

LFW, my wife was saying a lot of things that could be considered testing. Things about finding someone else, having a big house to bring them back to, being able to scour the dating websites... stuff that my wife doesn't usually say and only came up in anger and because I've chosen to stay. I feel that she would have expected me to leave when she first asked me to based on past behaviour.

[Barrybran]

I just got home from work and my wife angrily said a few things to me. She says she isn't going to be "pushed" out of her own home because I "left the marriage" over a year ago. I sat and listened, validated where I could and kept my responses to a minimum. She says her friends told her to pack up my things and just throw it outside. I refrained from saying anything to this. I may have to go to the police station tomorrow to find out what I can do if it comes to that or her taking off with the kids. She said she wasn't vindictive and that she has chosen not to thrown my things out several times.

The overriding thought was that it was a lot of spew, a lot of writing of her own history (I didn't leave the marriage though I understand her perception that I did) and that she is choosing this course of action. I sent my message to her this morning and reiterated to her this afternoon that separation and separate houses are her choices.

I will say this though. Removing me from the situation, if someone asked me who should move out in a relationship where someone cheated, I'd say the unfaithful one should go. It's what I feel is the "right" thing to do. Having this feeling, I feel that I should be the one to go when, and only when, an agreement can be reached on certain matters, such as the kids.

I'd like to know if anyone here can point me to a thread where someone stood their ground to the point of alienating their spouse. I'd like to get some insight on the feelings and actions other people took and the outcomes they reached. I feel calm right now and deeply confused. I feel that my wife is right and at the same time, I feel that I am choosing love (before anyone jumps, I'm talking down the track) while my wife is choosing to try and bully me out the door.

Something Mach said jumped out at me today... should I forever pay for my past mistakes and that answer is a resounding no. I feel somewhat enlightened even though my wife is very closed. I wish my wife would look at the bigger picture, whether we wind up back together or not, and think about whether she'll still be punishing me for this at age 40, 50, 60. I honestly don't think she will be. She'll remember what happened though the punishment, like my misdeeds, will be long dead. I know that is not going to happen nor is it something I should worry about.

[Barrybran]

Well, I went for that walk. The kids weren't home so I went by myself. I enjoyed it. It gave me some good thinking time. I thought some more about the living arrangements and I thought about the traits you guys have been helping me with. It stuck out that I want to be honourable and moving out would be the honourable thing to do. I would need to have an agreement in place regarding the kids as well as making sure there are no legal ramifications in me moving out before I agreed to do so. If all of those things fall into place, I feel I could move out and be happy with the decision.

I don't want to move of course. I enjoy it here, it's a great house and I've put a lot of time and effort into maintaining it. I feel that who I am is more important than a house and I would feel comfortable moving on if it fit in with who I want to be. Realistically, my kids would spend more time here too so having the yard would be a bonus for them.

I believe I should speak with a few people before making any decision: the police, so I know where I stand if my wife does something crazy; a lawyer, so I understand my rights, particularly with the two elder kids, and to confirm that moving out will not negatively impact me if things go further south; and the real estate, so I can see what is in the area. I won't be going anywhere if I feel that what is available is not suitable to my needs and wants.

My wife ruled out sharing a second place too. I understand that.

[Barrybran]

I try and compile my thoughts in one post and things keep happening. My wife messaged a short time ago with this:

"Stay in the house for as long as you feel you need too.
It's not entirely fair for either of us to relocate and foot the costs.

Though I'm far from happy, I'm not going to be a bitch the entire time."

She also mentioned that it's "hard to feel like [she has] a safe happy home." I asked what will make her feel that she has a safe, happy home to which she replied "I don't know".

Since then, we've had a good chat (her talking, me listening) about things going on in her world, mostly work. It was nice. She's been clear with me about our relationship and I've got my own little set up in my bedroom so I'll just plug away at being me and see what happens.

[Ggrass]

I don't think it will effect custody if you did move. I live in au, and have done child stuff in my last relationship. Although au believes that children are better off with mother first depending on age and then father or with parents who are not capable, then next stop is extended family if docs are called in.

Mostly you can do what ever you as parents can agree on. There are groups such as relationships Australia who will help mediate agreements or the courts do free mediation.
Unless its a huge $ settlement courts don't really care much.. And prefer you do mediated before fronting them.

. Moving might not be your best option, for the relationship, at least under the same roof, you will have more contact and opportunities especially with kids.

I don't have such ties and I'm feeling like its going to be a very tough road to hoe.

[Lostforwords]

B,

First....You did leave the marriage by cheating. Maybe you never left the physical world of the marriage, but you left the spiritual/emotional side of it. You have to accept it, understand why you did it, and then forgive yourself for it. You don't need to be punished or punish yourself forever for it....You just need to learn from it.

The outside influences on your life are difficult. So while your wife's friends are pulling you down....Remember that it is out of your control. So Listen, validate (what you feel is worth validating), and then work on yourself.

Have you read a book on surviving an affair? It may do you good to see things from the other side.

So B...are you going to live from your core based upon principles and values? Or are you going to let outside influences affect your core? Think about that one for awhile next time you walk.

[cat04]

B,

I have to agree with your W and Lost here. You did leave the marriage...it may not have been your intention but it happened.

Any of the LBS here will probably see it the same way.

I also agree with Lost that you really need to learn from that situation because I am sure you realize now that it isn't something you ever want to happen again.

Reread Lost's post.

[Barrybran]

I haven't read a book on surviving an affair. If anyone knows of a good one, I'd love to know.

I want to live from my core. The honour thing jumps out and I feel there are two ways to look at it: that I leave the house because I was unfaithful to my wife and that I stay and stand up for my family and marriage. After yesterday, I feel that I should move out if things continue to be untenable. I'm just not sure about what I should do right now. It's only been one full day with the new one-bed-apartment set up, I went for a walk instead of sitting at home in front of the TV and I stood up for myself by saying I'm not leaving so it's not exactly a large sample size of how things will be under these conditions.

I have some time to myself today so I'll sort a couple of things out and get the ball rolling on me moving out while I continue to think about what I want to and should do. I'll also work on finding out what a "safe, happy home" feels like to my wife in our conversations. Most importantly, I'm going to just leave her alone and make myself scarce where possible and see what happens.

[Barrybran]

I had a thought pop to mind just now. Many people say that in-house separation is better than separation via different homes. I've not seen a situation where an in-house separation has resulted in reconciliation while I've seen many situations result in reconciliation after a time apart. I understand the need for the WAS to feel a sense of loss and I don't really know how that can be achieved with both parties in the same home.

Does anyone have any thoughts about the most productive environment for a reconciliation?

[Barrybran]

Journaling:

My wife's brother and his fiance arrived today and my family were very excited. They hadn't been here since our wedding so all three kids have grown a lot in that time. I enjoyed the time spent with everyone catching up with one another. My wife's sister and her daughters arrived in mid-afternoon and I started to feel like a fish out of water. All of the adults know about our separation and I stayed clear of my wife meaning I stayed clear of everyone else too. The kids were having fun and I really didn't know what to do with myself. I considered going for a walk or drive. I felt awkward about just up and leaving so I stayed and watched TV in the other room.

On top of that, my BIL's fiance is pregnant. I haven't actually been told, I just overheard the conversation and commotion in the other room. I felt that it would be rude to just butt in and congratulate them when they haven't told me and my wife was really excited so I let them enjoy it as a family moment and I'll have a word with them tomorrow to offer my congratulations.

[Lostforwords]

"I'll also work on finding out what a "safe, happy home" feels like to my wife in our conversations"

"I had a thought pop to mind just now. Many people say that in-house separation is better than separation via different homes. I've not seen a situation where an in-house separation has resulted in reconciliation while I've seen many situations result in reconciliation after a time apart. I understand the need for the WAS to feel a sense of loss and I don't really know how that can be achieved with both parties in the same home."

Do either of these quotes seem like somebody who is detaching and working on them self? Or do they sound like someone who is not detaching and acting in a manner to their relationship with their spouse?

As to the family....act "as-if" nothing is going on. Act as you would with the family as things are great in the marriage. Actually being social would probably be an 180 for you....and no mention or talk with the family about the separation.

You are missing my point on leaving B....You have left before in the past multiple times. That has built lack of trust and security in your wife. Because of this your wife probably see's you as distrustful, weak, and providing her no security.

By staying you are saying...I will not leave my family again. I am going to live to my purpose of a father and husband to stay and will not take the easy road out. Being a man of conviction and purpose leads to security and trust. You will NOT get love for this, you will NOT get praise....More than likely just evil spew and hate because this behavior is not old B. A man of conviction stands up to spew and hate and in his soul says and knows....I will act as more core tells me to act.

[Barrybran]

Rightyo. I'm just confused about it all. I understand that my statements may seem undetached. Where I was coming from was gathering as much information as I can to make an informed decision and to listen to and learn more about my wife in the process. You'd think after five months I might actually know more than I do.

Is it worth seeing the lawyer and real estate then? I wouldn't mind seeing the lawyer in case my wife does something I don't expect.

[Barrybran]

I swear I need a life coach

[cat04]

I'm just confused about it all. I understand that my statements may seem undetached. Where I was coming from was gathering as much information as I can to make an informed decision and to listen to and learn more about my wife in the process. You'd think after five months I might actually know more than I do.

Your statements seem like you are undetatched, because you are undetatched. No if's, and's, but's, or explanations about it.

Believe it or not, we understand you pretty clearly without you having to explain every single thought you have.

It is the reason you don't understand the reference to the cleaning.

If you were detatched, you would clean as much or as little as you want to and not worry how your W feels because she owns her own feelings and you don't.

Right now that particular topic is a no win situation because she wants to make you responsible for her feelings. It allows her to stay in anger.

There is a book, called After the Affair. I haven't read it but I have heard good things about it. It may help.

Barry, in your first thread, you gave excuses as to how you ended up in the affair. You blamed your W, you blamed yourself, you cried the "it just happened" card, and you know you were wrong.

Do you really understand how you got there?

What have you done to ensure that it won't happen again? Have you learned how to meet your own needs when your W doesn't?

Do you understand even a little bit how deeply wounded your W was by your actions?

I am not trying to bash you, but I get the feeling you just want to move past the affair, and fix the M, and your W is no where near ready to do that. She has no faith that it won't happen again. There is no guarantee that she will ever be able to find that faith again.

The best you can do at this point is work toward really understanding it, really being remorseful (even if you never express it to her), and work toward being a man who is secure enough within himself that he can move through times of strife without looking for validation and attention from any woman.

Just MO.

[gogofo]

I haven't read a book on surviving an affair. If anyone knows of a good one, I'd love to know.

I have not finished it yet, about 1/3 of the way through it, but I am reading "NOT just friends" by Shirley Glass. It is a long book, 456 pages, but it seems to equally approach each side of the affair. It even addresses the person the cheating partner cheated with. It has a cover quote by Michele Weiner-Davis.

I like what I have been reading so far, but have not put it into practice. I am reading it because I think my wife was seeking emotional support and probably had an EA when we were together and right after we separated. Don't know if there was a PA, but I am reading the book to get insight into my feelings and emotions as well as hers. It walks you through how to address the affair and steps you through how to work through and reconcile, if possible.

[Barrybran]

OK, finally replying to Mach's questions. I hope my responses don't appear out of context. If they do, head back to page 2 of this thread where Mach posted them with my quotes.

So one might say that your actions are more of an obligation, and that is what drives you ???

Was your Marriage more of an obligation ?

At work, definitely. When I go to work I feel that I am there to do a job, there are certain expectations of me and if I don’t do my job I”ll be out of work. I take work very seriously. Outside of work, I feel there is so much choice that I don’t know what to do about it. What job do I want to do? What do I want to do for fun? Should I run errands or have downtime? What should I do with my money? There are so many ways to live your life and I have no idea how I want to live mine. As such, I see life as not being an obligation and how I’ve conducted myself in marriage has been an extension of that.

So, if you were to take away the context of your recent conversations, and focus on the content, would you say that there is better communication now ? Or say, a month ago ???

Absolutely. It has continued on since then and I am very happy with it. It is clear both ways and when one of us doesn’t fully understand something, we ask until we do understand. She is still pissed off at me however she is very clear with me now and I appreciate it. There is a lot less misunderstanding going on between us.

You cheated, I get that.

You also found an excuse to cheat. And you also found a way to justify cheating to yourself. Yet you list that as one of your qualities.

Should you pay for that forever ???

Absolutely not....

Yet you really need to dig and find out why you cheated. Not just a superficial scratch on the surface. The real root cause of why you cheated.

For me, this was answered when I read 5LL. I know I’m not unfaithful at heart and yet I did it. I was ashamed of myself and it totally went against who I thought I was. I understand the symptoms very clearly. The reasons, however, came down to my wife and I loving each other in our own love languages and not understanding, and therefore appreciating, the love that came our way. Add in the fact that I have been codependent all my life and I wound up withdrawing first and ultimately cheating.

I think that you are patient, with what YOU want to be patient with.

Little girls are just younger women in training....

Until you learn about Women, you will have trouble with Girls...

Have you read Mars/Venus ???

I can’t say that I have. Should I be reading it?

[Barrybran]

Barry, in your first thread, you gave excuses as to how you ended up in the affair. You blamed your W, you blamed yourself, you cried the "it just happened" card, and you know you were wrong.

Do you really understand how you got there?

What have you done to ensure that it won't happen again? Have you learned how to meet your own needs when your W doesn't?

Do you understand even a little bit how deeply wounded your W was by your actions?

I understand how I got to the point where I cheated. As I wrote in my responses to Mach, I didn't understand that my wife was loving me in her language, I had expectations of how a marriage should be and I was incredibly codependent. It made for a nasty cocktail.

I stopped going to the website I'd abused in May last year when my wife first brought things up. I did that to save trouble for myself. It took me six months to understand the magnitude of my wife's feelings. In November (BD) I cut all contact with the female friend I'd cheated with as well as another female I'd dated briefly while my wife and I were separated before marriage. I hadn't been back to the website in that six months and my motivation for doing so shifted from keeping me out of trouble to understanding that my wife didn't trust me there. I've not been back to the website in nearly 12 months nor had any contact with the people I've cut contact with since November. My wife has had access to my accounts (email, Facebook, etc.) since November (she asked for access in May 2013) and she is free to check them as she sees fit.

I'm still learning to meet my own needs. I feel a lot more in control of myself with regards to neglect and rejection. I understand that communication is key when problems arise. The biggest thing that I've taken away from this is that I am responsible for my own feelings.

As for how deeply wounded my wife is, as mentioned before, that took six months to understand and I've been learning ever since. She's been dealing with it for 14 months and I've been dealing with it for five months.

I am not trying to bash you, but I get the feeling you just want to move past the affair, and fix the M, and your W is no where near ready to do that. She has no faith that it won't happen again. There is no guarantee that she will ever be able to find that faith again.

I can see why you'd think that. I do want to fix the marriage. Deep down, I wish my wife had access to some of the information that I've come across. To understand that you are responsible for your own happiness is a powerful thought and yet it's taken me 30 years to discover it. So much of life is about attitude and I watch my wife walk around angry at me when she could do some reading and turn things around for herself. Of course, I understand that I have hurt her, that she doesn't trust me and that she feels I am the cause of her problems and that she is not interested in building a constructive relationship with me in the foreseeable future.

[cat04]

Barry,

Wondering where you are...

Mars Venus...an older book but very accurate to the difference between men and women.

[Barrybran]

I'm still around. Nothing of note has happened in the past couple of days and my last couple of posts were big ones so I just took a breather :-)

[Barrybran]

My BIL and his fiancé left today after a pretty good week. I stayed out of most things, only joining in where asked or appropriate. There weren't too many awkward moments surprisingly. Our situation didn't come up the entire week though I didn't expect it to. As I left for work this morning my BIL's fiancé said she hopes everything works out between my wife and I and that hopefully things will be good by the time were due to visit them in February. I said thanks and left it at that. I appreciated the thought as it's nice to know that while people are respecting our privacy with regards to the situation, there are people on my wife's side rooting for me.

[Lostforwords]

B,

It sounds like you had a good week...Lived your life and kept away from situations where your relationship could become the center of conversation. You are getting better B....It is tough road, but I told you that months ago.

People are funny creatures...

A lot of people like and root for unhappiness in others because they themselves cannot find happiness.....So to see strive in others makes them feel happier about themselves.

A smaller group of people root for others to find happiness....Those are the truly happy people who get happiness from within and to witness happiness outside of themselves and their influence only heightens their own personal happiness.

This isn't the heart of DB.....But a good journey into your soul B. Think about it for a bit

[Barrybran]

It's a nice thought indeed. I have a new thread here:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2450507&#Post2450507