Figuring out how to behave

[mdu]

One of the toughest parts of this is figuring out how to behave around H. I have read a lot here and believe I understand the concept of GAL but wonder if it's the right thing to do now. H has agreed to 'work on the marriage' BUT I am extremely suspicious and afraid he is still in touch with OW. I get that it is highly addicting and have a hard time imagining he could just go cold turkey. On the brighter side, I thought I would list some of the positive things I've observed from him:
• He is going to MC with me
• He is making some efforts to emotionally connect with me (this was a problem pre-affair), talking to me about work, watching TV together, general chitchat.
• We both were separately on our laptops the other night (another problem pre-affair), I decided to close mine, as soon as I did he did too and started chatting.
• When confronted about an unusual # on his cell phone record he did not become defensive , gave me an explanation and offered for me to see the txts
• He is expressing some accountability for his part and stating things he knows he needs to work on himself
• After expressing a lot of doubts about working on things and our marriage, I suggested he read a chapter in an infidelity book I thought was good which specifically gives some perspective on these types of feelings and he agreed to check it out (he is NOT a reader so this is really unusual for him).
• When I woke up sad and depressed recently he asked ‘what can I do to help?’
• I asked him to please come home by 6:30 so we can have dinner as a family and if he can’t make it home by then to please let me know by 6 so I can make dinner later if need be. He has abided by this request since I asked.

At this point I am really not sure if I should be pulling away from him (a.k.a. GAL) or in our particular situation if I should be turning toward him. Based on things he’s said bothered him, I believe a big issue for him in general pre-affair was he felt highly rejected by me. I rejected him a lot sexually (I basically controlled our sex life). I was highly distracted with the kids and work. I would go to bed early and leave him sitting alone on the couch watching TV. You get the idea. He was bottom on the list, unfortunately. I wonder if I should be showing him that he is top of the list now rather than pulling away and GAL?? I'm not sure if I should snoop or just let it go so that I communicate to him that I can trust him again and he can get out of jail. I know that is another fear he has, that I will hold this over him forever.

[Starsky309]

Did he send his OW a no-contact letter? Agree to a transparency plan with you? Is your MC trained in dealing with infidelity?

Those would be the top 3 things I would recommend to you in order to feel safe again emotionally in the marriage. Once you've confirmed no-contact, then no, you shouldn't be pulling away from him any longer, but you need to confirm the no-contact.

Did he change his cellphone # and email addresses -- things that OW used to communicate with him?

Without those things in place, it's impossible to tell the difference between a true return to the marriage, and him just pushing things underground and being on his best surface behavior. I'm a big "trust -- but verify" guy.


Starsky

[Cadet]

Hi, I am new here. Here is my story.

On March 6th I busted my H having an affair. We have been married 8 and ½ years and have 2 small children at home (4 and 6). My husband also has two older children (19 and 25) who are not at home anymore.

I had suspicions and looked at cell phone records. I found tons of txts/calls to an unfamiliar #, called it and sure enough it was a woman. I hung up and confronted him. He confessed. I was devastated and wanted to work things out. He was uncertain what he wanted to do. I begged and pleaded that we try to work things out and said I knew I had done things wrong and was willing to take an honest look and work on things. Within about a day he came around and agreed that he would recommit to me.

He called her to break things off but insisted on doing it alone, which I knew was bad but I just wanted it over. They met through work but she is in another office in another state, she lives 2 hours away. They do not work in the same department. Unless he visits that office and runs into her he really does not have to see her again. It was a 4 month affair, both sexual and emotional. He fell deeply in love with her.

The next week or so was heinous as I began trying to piece together what happened and grilling him for details of the affair. But he seemed to be doing all the right things, seemed to be forthcoming and truly remorseful. We began seeing a marriage counselor. I was horribly hurt and angry but hopeful. Then things started to turn. He had to travel for work and as soon as he was gone I started to panic and could feel him pulling away. Sure enough by the time he got home he had completely turned on me. He was very distant and began clearly PINING for her right in front of me! He was even playing love songs clearly for her RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME! Of course I wondered (and still do) if he had some contact with her while he was away but I’ve never been able to verify. He maintains he has had no contact since he initially broke it off.

I quickly began losing my patience. Within less than a week of this I decided I could not take it anymore and wrote him a letter stating that I needed his commitment 100% if we were going to work on this and I clearly did not have it so he must leave. He left.

A few days later we had another marriage counselor appointment. I was not sure if H would show up but he did. Marriage counselor suggested we put more structure and rules around the separation. He said we should not speak except for logistics regarding the kids. We should each take this time to independently decide what we each want then come back together in about a week and ½ at our next counseling appointment and each state our decision. There was also to be NO contact with the affair partner during this time. We both agreed to this plan and followed the rules.

So we come back together 1 and ½ weeks later and H immediately states he again wants to recommit to working on things with me. I still want the same and am thrilled. He moves back in. The next few days are mostly blissful, he is again remorseful, we talk and make love, do fun things with the kids and while it will clearly be tough things seem optimistic. But within a few days he starts turning on me again. He begins listing all the things that have bothered him about me apparently for years and years and that I must now change or else he will leave. To be fair, he also states that he has things to change as well but the lions share of issues clearly seem to be mine.

Now I will admit the things that he states I must change are not entirely unreasonable, however, he is SO negative. I have stated from the getgo that I know I have a part in making our marriage vulnerable to this and am motivated to make changes and have been trying very hard since this came out but that is not enough. He is extremely pessimistic that I can make the necessary changes and very pessimistic that we can work this out. He is not pessimistic by nature. At times he states he is just here for the kids. He has an extremely negative view of our entire history now, which is very worrisome because I wonder how can we overcome his horrible attitude? It makes it seem so overwhelming and like we have no chance to save this. I do not see our history the same, while I agree we have had a fair bit of conflict over the years and were at times disconnected (of course moreso while he was involved), I see a counterbalance of many happy times.

I am also angry that he was apparently SO unhappy for SO many years and while I knew on some level that things were not great I had no idea that he was so far gone that he would go to the extreme of an affair and seriously contemplate leaving. I feel that I have not been given a chance and while he is giving me a bit of a chance now it’s seems very minimal.

Another issue, he continues to have very strong feelings for her. I am not sure what to make of this either. How and when will he overcome this? I fear that they are like Romeo and Juliet now, torn apart and will forever love/miss each other. How do I live with this? When will it end?

We had a long discussion this evening where all his pessimism came out again. He will state that he will continue to work on things but then in the next breath say maybe we should just end it because it would be better for the kids. I want to commit to trying for at least a year but he is reticent to commit to investing for that long. I have been trying so hard but fear that I cannot be what he wants and he will not give me a fair chance. We ended up having an argument tonight that he said ‘triggered him’ and all his bad feelings/memories of our supposedly horrible marriage. I am trying so hard but it’s still not good enough and I worry that I am losing my own self-respect. I am trying to stand up and state what I want and need from the marriage as well but even with that, the lions share of issues/work still seems to be on me which seems horribly unfair when HE is the one who had the A!!!

Needless to say, I am confused and struggling with how to handle this all. Some moments I think to myself, this is so not worth it, he is just too far gone and there is no chance of salvaging things, I need to just end this and move on. The next I think that we are exactly where you’d expect given where we are in the process.

I could desperately use some perspective! Any/all thoughts are very welcome! Thanks so much in advance for reading and reacting to my story.

Stick to one thread until 100 posts.

Lets use this one.

[mdu]

Thanks to both of you for replying! I will definitely stick to this thread to keep things together going forward. Regarding no contact, here is what we have done:

He has not sent a no contact letter but I am confident he spoke to her and broke it off, I saw the call on the phone records and the evening he spoke to her she texted him and he told me immediately. I called her (dumb idea, I know) and it was clear that he had indeed ended it with her. That was over a month ago, unless I had hard evidence that he is in touch with her again I would be anxious to send a no contact letter at this point as I fear it might stir the pot again. He did not change his cell # but he did block her phone number on his cell. I also periodically check phone records so his cell # is actually quite easy for me to monitor so I am not terribly concerned about that. He did not change email address but I have access to it. I have password for his phone and his email is directly linked to it so I can check it randomly. If he is still in touch with her it would have to be a separate phone that I am not aware of or possibly work phone, although that would be tough because he does not have a private office at work. Or he would have to have created a new email account that I am not aware of or be getting emails and immediately deleting them before I have a chance to catch them. I suppose that is a possibility and maybe makes insisting that he change it something worth pursuing but having said that, I wonder if that will really make me feel better as he could easily create a new email account I am not aware of. I am not sure I want to go so far as installing some sort of tracking key on his laptop. He has two, one personal, one work. I would not be able to do that on the work one anyway. I feel like there's always some sort of possibility of him getting around things so where do I draw the line? I have been clear with him that no contact is imperative.

[mdu]

Oh and yes, the MC is trained in infidelity, he has 35 years experience. I feel really good about him.

[Starsky309]

Thanks to both of you for replying! I will definitely stick to this thread to keep things together going forward. Regarding no contact, here is what we have done:

He has not sent a no contact letter but I am confident he spoke to her and broke it off, I saw the call on the phone records and the evening he spoke to her she texted him and he told me immediately. I called her (dumb idea, I know) and it was clear that he had indeed ended it with her. That was over a month ago, unless I had hard evidence that he is in touch with her again I would be anxious to send a no contact letter at this point as I fear it might stir the pot again. He did not change his cell # but he did block her phone number on his cell. I also periodically check phone records so his cell # is actually quite easy for me to monitor so I am not terribly concerned about that. He did not change email address but I have access to it. I have password for his phone and his email is directly linked to it so I can check it randomly. If he is still in touch with her it would have to be a separate phone that I am not aware of or possibly work phone, although that would be tough because he does not have a private office at work. Or he would have to have created a new email account that I am not aware of or be getting emails and immediately deleting them before I have a chance to catch them. I suppose that is a possibility and maybe makes insisting that he change it something worth pursuing but having said that, I wonder if that will really make me feel better as he could easily create a new email account I am not aware of. I am not sure I want to go so far as installing some sort of tracking key on his laptop. He has two, one personal, one work. I would not be able to do that on the work one anyway. I feel like there's always some sort of possibility of him getting around things so where do I draw the line? I have been clear with him that no contact is imperative.

That's NO no-contact letter, and a pretty leaky transparency plan if you ask me.

I would estimate that secret "affair phones" exist in about 50-75% of leaky transparency plans, in my experience. Where would I draw the line? I would draw it as:

- no-contact letter sent, the copy of which was approved by ME and it was DELIVERED by me;

- a thorough transparency plan that included changing all email and cellphone, with detailed billing on the new cellphone coming to me;

- at least one form of intel that is unknown to my wayward spouse, so that I can verify no-contact is continuing;

- MCing with a good MC or FT trained specifically to deal with infidelity

But that's just me. Remember, you need to guard not only against your husband's WILLINGNESS to do this, but also his ABILITY to pull it off. Us men can be very weak creatures, sadly.


Starsky

[Wonka]

Us men can be very weak creatures, sadly.

If I didn't know you better, Starsky, you would have fooled me right there.

[Train]

I completely agree with Starsky on the plan.

When I discovered my H's A, I immediately demanded - if he wanted to work on our M - that he end all contact with OW. I suspended his phone on our family plan (which was easy for me because the bill was in my name). H bought another phone. But a couple days later, he asked me to go with him to the phone store so he could turn his new phone off, and he asked if I would put him back on the family plan. He assured me I would be able to monitor his calls/emails since the bill was still in my name.

He told me, in a text, that he told OW that he needed to stay in our M to try to repair "anything that might be able to be repaired." He told me that he "might end up with OW, and he might not," but if he did, they would "hook up down the road."

I did not have the tools or know-how to demand a NC letter. And it didn't end up mattering anyway because I kicked him out about a week later when he disrespected me in front of our S7. BUT, one thing I later discovered is that he installed "TextPlus" on his phone, which would allow him to secretly contact OW. (I'm still not sure if it was on his "burn phone" or on the phone on our family plan.) The point is: technology provides easy ways to pull off an affair in secret.

AND, if your H is serious about reconciling, he'll be willing to do it on YOUR terms. To that end, I'd push for EVERYTHING Starsky mentions above. I wouldn't care how much time has passed. This is to protect YOU.

[mdu]

What does a no contact letter look like? When I say time has passed and I don't want to stir things up I mean that I fear sending a no contact letter to her at this point might in fact incite her to start trying to contact, which would get him all stirred up about her again, no? I mean we are not talking about some legal thing, right, in the end I can send a letter but she can still do whatever she wants? Maybe (obviously) I am not understanding the concept of the no contact letter and why it is so effective?

What are examples of intel that he would not be aware of?

If a secret affair phone exists in 50-75% of affairs anyway (that's depressing), how does any of this really guard against that? I guess that just leads me back to "if there's a will he'll find the way"

[Train]

mdu,

I'll defer to Starsky on some of that. But I think a hardcore, strict transparency plan, moving forward, is the only way to go. A new cell number for your H with the bill coming to you, IMO, is a must, especially if the relationship was carried out mostly by texts and calls. Obviously, the same would apply to an email address if email was used to carry out the affair.

I don't think there's a sure-fire method to make sure the A is ended or over. But a transparency plan is a great first step.

Remember, people involved in affairs are liars. And they're pretty good at it, too, which is probably more of a reflection of our desire to want to believe them.

The good news is: every day that your H honors the no-transparency plan and stays away from OW is a day closer to the day he may emerge from his "fog." And it's a day you can use to work on yourself and your M. Ignoring the big pink elephant in the room, hoping it will just go away, is not in the best interest of your M. Trust me: I learned that lesson, too. Let my H back in too soon and easy after an A in 2005. And here I am again. Do yourself a favor on the front-end of this beast: don't make this too easy on him.

[Train]

And a key logger on the home computer is not a bad idea, IMO.

[mdu]

Ok, thanks, so I confronted him about a better transparency plan and he was resistant. Really is not 100% on board the idea of agreeing to do 'whatever I need'. Also, he continues to have STRONG feelings for her, which is obviously a road block to our reconciling. He thinks there's a very slim chance things will work out between he and I. So what now? Am I supposed to kick him out again? I hate doing this to my kids. Our first 10 day separation was hard on them. I can't get into back and forth and I'm not ready to file for divorce, I don't think. I am so confused!

[Starsky309]

Tell him "Then all I can conclude is that you're still in contact with her, or want to leave a door open so you CAN be. That doesn't work for me. Looks like we both have some important decisions to make."

And then leave him be. Do NOT get into it with him, or tell him what you plan on doing. POST HERE FIRST.

He still sounds foggy to me. My guess is that he's still been in contact. COULD just be a "stubborn male" thing, but HE is going to have to decide if his pride is more important than making things right with you.


Starsky

[Train]

I'll wait on some vets to pitch in here, but I've gotta tell you, mdu, the fact that he is resisting 100% transparency is a huge red flag.

As for his strong feelings for OW, expect that. Also expect "withdrawal symptoms." If he's HAPPY during the withdrawal period, it's my opinion that you have something about which to worry. Let's see if I can explain: Remember a time when you "fell in love"? Those butterfly feelings? The feeling that you've just met THE ONE?!? That's what your H has done. To FEEL that - and understand it, in your current sitch - is going to HURT you. But those are the feelings he has allowed himself to develop for another woman, outside of your M. Now imagine having to give that up for your spouse, with whom you have fallen OUT of love for the time being.

It's like taking a drink out of the hand of an alcoholic. The withdrawal period is NOT going to be pretty. So if he's happy during this time, you MUST question whether he's "picking up the drink again." If he's miserable, he's very likely "detoxing." Does that make sense?

I don't mean to sound like a cynic, but the fact that things have seemed on an upward swing with you two immediately after he supposedly sent OW a NC message ... but he's not 100% invested in the transparency plan you pitched ... sends up red flags to me.

I wouldn't make ANY hasty decisions about kicking him out or filing. You've got time. Just try to talk it out here and bide your time for a while ...

[Train]

And see? While I'm responding, the vet pitches in. BOOM! You've got support here, mdu.

[mdu]

Big deeps breaths...

Ok, thanks again to both of you for replying. Definitely agreeing and also feeling the red flag with the resistence. As for him being 'high', he actually has not been this last week. He's been pretty grumpy and distant. We separated for 10 days because he was clearly unsure about reconciling but then he recommitted and we were BOTH really high immediately after the recommitment, that lasted a couple of days but then he came down and has been getting more and more distant and down as the days go by. He is a very stubborn and very defensive guy, I do think it's possible that is driving his resistence but I think probably a slim chance.

I do get the whole 'in love' withdrawal thing. He and I very much had that 'in love' endorphin thing going when we first got together :-( So awful to think he let it go THAT far and really is there any chance for recovery when they go THAT deep?? I keep wondering if this is even worth MY while.

During the confrontation about the tranparency plan I said a lot of crap I shouldn't of. I started to cry and told him I loved him, how could he do this, blah, blah, blah. I did not handle it well, although I am sure it was also apparent to him that my wheels were turning and I was really wondering if I should continue to stay and 'try'. By the time he got home from work a couple of hours later I turned it around a bit and ended up telling him as soon as he got home that I needed some space and was heading out. I said dinner is in the oven for the kids and I would tell them that I was going to run errands and then I just left. I am not sure what (if anything more) I should say when I get home.

I am tempted to call the OW and just ask her WTF is up, that would be an exceptionally bad idea, right?! So glad I am posting here, I really appreciate the support!

[Train]

This is just me, but I'm going to say that calling the home wrecker is an exceptionally bad idea. Don't let her "in" anymore than she's already "in" your M. She did you NO favors by becoming your H's lover. Don't expect her to help you or your M now ...

And I think it's potentially good news that he's grumpy and distant.

Yes, worse situations than yours have turned around. Some Ms can be even BETTER than pre-A. That's not BS. One of my dearest friends has a M that weathered an A, and she and her H have been blissfully married since - for about 30 years!

Play your cards right. But I'll defer to others to give you much of the advice on exactly HOW to do that since I'm still in the throes of a mess myself. It's easier, though, to find "answers" in another person's situation than in our own.

Good on you for getting out of the house this evening, though!

Keep it together. And try to focus on your own sanity right now. No R talks because that will send YOU into a downward cycle. (((Hugs)))

[mdu]

Update...
So last night I came home and went straight up to bed. Did not say a word to him. After about an hour he timidly came up and said he just wanted to see what's going on. I just sort of shrugged. Then he asked if I wanted him to sleep elsewhere. I said, yeah, I think we both need space, so he went to our basement bedroom. This morning I am up early and aiming to get out of here quickly (hopefully before he gets up). I am planning to leave him a letter, this is the best way for me to communicate without getting overly emotional or sucked into foolish R talk. Here's what the letter says, probably not precisely what you all would recommend but it's what I feel most comfortable with right now:

H,
I love you and am still willing to work on things. However, as you well know, you have completely broken my trust in you. In order for me to begin to feel safe in our marriage I need your complete & full commitment to being fully accountable and transparent with all your actions and communications. That includes providing me with any/all passwords I may request. If you are unable or unwilling to commit to whatever transparency plan I require to help me feel safe again then I can only conclude that you are a). still in contact with her or b). leaving doors open so you CAN be at some point. This is not acceptable to me. As long as you are in contact with her or leaving doors open so you possibly can reconnect you are not really giving our marriage a chance and I will be unable to move forward with working on things.
Love,
mdu

[mdu]

Ugh, I felt so confident early this morning. Now I am totally questioning whether I should have set such a firm boundary. Intellectually I know it's probably the right thing but emotionally I am struggling and wondering if I should be softer, give him more time to come around on his own, etc. This is so horrible to deal with! I am trying so hard to stay focused (I am at work) but it's so, so hard!!

[Train]

Hey, mdu!

Remember that DBing is very counter-intuitive. A lot of times, you'll feel like you are doing the *opposite* of what "should" work. But think about it this way: what you've been thinking "should" work is what landed you here.

So, yes, you're going to be living well outside your comfort zone for a while. No doubt about it. You'll be doing things that you think will push your H away. The idea is that the stronger YOU become, the more attractive you become. The entire idea, essentially, is to improve YOURSELF. Fake it 'til you make it, even. And if your H follows, good for him. If he refuses to sever ties with OW, then you'll be strong and confident enough to weather this storm on your own. Nobody wants to think about doing this alone, but your H's choices are his choices, and you have no control over them. You CAN, however, potentially *influence* his choices by focusing and working on YOU.

I still can't say I have a finger firmly on the pulse of your sitch, at least not enough to be confident in passing along any specific words of advice. BUT, keep posting here. Others will be weighing in. And I'm checking in on you and will pitch in what I can, when I can!

Forgive me if you've already listed it, but has your H provided a list of "complaints" about you in your M? And what are you doing to get out of the house and settle your mind a little?

[mdu]

Ok...another update. So I made myself NOT look at my phone for a while so I could focus on work. I just took a look and apparently he txted immediately after reading my letter. His text said, "I got your letter. I am still willing to work on things. I think we should discuss this with the MC. I have said you can look at all of my email. I will give you the passwords. I am trying to understand what else you are requiring. I love you."

[mdu]

Train, thanks again so much for your guidance and support! As for his complaints he has provided me with some, all of them are reasonable and I am willing to work on. They are:
*Getting nasty when I'm angry
*Emotional disconnection, not feeling like he/we talk enough (about our daily lives; also wanting to feel like we can tell each other anything)
*Sexual disconnection
*Not doing enough together, e.g., me going to bed early to read and leaving him alone on the couch by himself watching TV
He has more but that's what I know at this point.

[mdu]

As for what I am doing to get out of the house and settle my mind...unfortunately since we have decided to recommit and reconcile that has been tougher and tougher to do. I've found my circle of supporters has shrunk (apparently people I know are much more pro immediately filing for divorce once this has occured) and there are very few people I feel comfortable around right now.

Also, because I feel like we are kind of swinging a bit between 'reconciling' and 'are we really reconciling?' I'm not entirely sure how to behave. For instance, given an issue for him has been our emotional disconnection and not doing things together I've been trying to be more available in the evenings to hang out with him and just chat or watch TV. Which has actually been pretty positive several times. Going out with friends or something else out of the house obviously seems counter to that.

Having said that, I am trying to do some things on my own that will help with my mental health, e.g., walking or jogging, reading a good book, focusing and spending time with the kids, focusing on work (I have a good FT job I generally find very satifying).

Any additional thoughts/suggestions very much appreciated again!

[Starsky309]

And then leave him be. Do NOT get into it with him, or tell him what you plan on doing. POST HERE FIRST.

I am planning to leave him a letter, this is the best way for me to communicate without getting overly emotional or sucked into foolish R talk. Here's what the letter says, probably not precisely what you all would recommend but it's what I feel most comfortable with right now: . . .

So do you feel better for having sent that letter, or no?

I take it you either disagree with my "POST HERE FIRST" advice, or you just plan on going ahead and doing whatever feels right to you in the emotional moment???

Makes it a little difficult to help you, mdu.


Starsky

[mdu]

Yes, actually I do feel better for having given him that letter.

Obviously in your opinion I've done something very wrong, Starsky. I'm not sure what.

I actually didn't at all feel that I had given him the letter in an intensely emotional moment. I had really calmed myself and slept the night before better and longer than I have literally since this all started. I felt I had awoken with a real clarity. I'm very confused now, unfortunately.

[Starsky309]

Yes, actually I do feel better for having given him that letter.
. . .

I actually didn't at all feel that I had given him the letter in an intensely emotional moment. I had really calmed myself and slept the night before better and longer than I have literally since this all started. I felt I had awoken with a real clarity.

Ugh, I felt so confident early this morning. Now I am totally questioning whether I should have set such a firm boundary.

I was only referencing YOUR second-guessing of it.

Look, I happen to like the letter, and would have hardly changed a word. I am just trying to get you to begin to stop leading with your EMOTIONS, and rather to lead with a PLAN.

Leading with our emotions is usually what got us into our sitches in the first place.


Starsky

[mdu]

Got it, thanks Starsky!

[mdu]

H came home grumpy, grumpy tonight. Would barely look at or acknowledge me. Fortunately he left for the eve to take DS to cub scouts so I don't have to deal with it. I am going to do a few things for me now, like look for a 5K race to run and maybe a cooking class.

[mdu]

I am still so confused about how to behave around H. He is not making many (any) moves towards me lately (physically or otherwise, e.g., talking, txting, etc). But, I often wonder if he’s waiting for me to make the first move. When I do try to reach out to him, give him a hug, try to cuddle in bed, he is generally responsive. Maybe not quite as enthusiastic as in my dreams but he seems to soften and reciprocate. Also, if I tell him ‘I love you’ he says it back but I’m not sure if I should even be saying that at this point? I think I mentioned before that he clearly felt very rejected by me in many ways pre-A, which makes me think that I should be reaching out to him to show him that yes, I will change this. However, DBing seems to suggest I should do the complete opposite and pull away from him. Needless to say I'm confused!

Given he generally responds reasonably well when I reach out and the prior rejection issue should I keep it up or back off? He is still very much getting over her so I’m not sure how that should factor into my behavior. I feel caught between a rock and a hard place and need a plan! Do I keep reaching out and if he responds well go with it but if he seems to recoil/rebuff back off? I really do want to signal to him that I can be the one to give him whatever he was getting from her (or at least I can TRY) but obviously I don’t want to come off as desperate and that I’ll do anything! Also, it is a little annoying given he had the A and I feel like I’m the one fighting to get HIM back, I feel like I have to seriously put my pride aside.

Ugh! Advice on how to proceed would be very much appreciated!!!

[figgeroni]

DB isn't a set standard of rules on how to behave. If you were emotionally distant and unavailable before, then do the opposite now...

ultimately...you need to be ok with yourself and how you handle things

[Starsky309]

I am still so confused about how to behave around H. He is not making many (any) moves towards me lately (physically or otherwise, e.g., talking, txting, etc). But, I often wonder if he’s waiting for me to make the first move. When I do try to reach out to him, give him a hug, try to cuddle in bed, he is generally responsive. Maybe not quite as enthusiastic as in my dreams but he seems to soften and reciprocate. Also, if I tell him ‘I love you’ he says it back but I’m not sure if I should even be saying that at this point? I think I mentioned before that he clearly felt very rejected by me in many ways pre-A, which makes me think that I should be reaching out to him to show him that yes, I will change this. However, DBing seems to suggest I should do the complete opposite and pull away from him. Needless to say I'm confused!

My advice would change entirely based on whether or not he's in contact with OW, and being fully transparent with you and at least WILLING to work on this (even if not yet fully FEELING like it). That's why I'm so big on intel and good transparency plans, because it changes my strategy and tactics almost ENTIRELY.


Starsky

[mdu]

I hear ya Straskey and think I get where you are coming from. And honestly, I have not fully sorted out in my own mind my feelings about transparency plan/intel yet and what specifically I require given my own needs/what I can tolerate, etc. I’m struggling with it. With full access to his cell phone and phone records and him having blocked her # on his cell I’m not really feeling the need for a new cell # (I know you are big on this but I’m not sure what else that gets us beyond what’s already in place?). I don’t feel completely confident making that request bc it feels like I’m just creating a vengeful hassle that offers little (no?) more to meet my security needs than what he is already agreeing to. I mean as long as I look up the cell usage records there’s no way he can be in contact with her (or some other strange #) via cell call/txt without my knowing. There’s no way he can delete the usage records I have access to, I asked AT&T, lol! I have already questioned him about strange numbers and he has been forthcoming. I feel a little different with regard to email, only because he can obviously delete those, there’s not the usage records like cell. So that is a change I likely will request.

I also go round and round with myself about inserting a tracker on his computer at home. It seems so sneaky and devious, having said that, I also realize he deserves it. I’m also not sure I could stomach the stress of it. Even if someone else read the logs for me, I would still stress tremendously over the anticipation of what ‘might’ come up. On the other hand, I know that the reality is if he IS in contact with her we have NO chance (at least that’s my personal strong belief), so might as well face up to it. I may get there eventually but right at this moment, I just don’t think I’m quite there yet. Usually I just suddenly get real decisive about something and then I just ‘know’ exactly what I want/need, I assume that is what will happen with the home computer tracking. I’ll likely wake up one day and just feel compelled to do it and will.

We are planning to discuss transparency plan with the MC tomorrow so I’m trying to get my own thoughts in order beforehand.

[Train]

I mean as long as I look up the cell usage records there’s no way he can be in contact with her (or some other strange #) via cell call/txt without my knowing.

I'm no expert on this, but check with AT&T about usage on apps like "TextPlus," mdu. My teenagers told me about it; it's an app people can use to keep their texts secret. My H had, sure enough, downloaded that on his phone. Maybe check with the phone company about whether texts through an app like that would show up in his usage ... if nothing else, just for your own peace of mind.

[Starsky309]

I hear ya Straskey and think I get where you are coming from. And honestly, I have not fully sorted out in my own mind my feelings about transparency plan/intel yet and what specifically I require given my own needs/what I can tolerate, etc. I’m struggling with it. With full access to his cell phone and phone records and him having blocked her # on his cell I’m not really feeling the need for a new cell # (I know you are big on this but I’m not sure what else that gets us beyond what’s already in place?). I don’t feel completely confident making that request bc it feels like I’m just creating a vengeful hassle that offers little (no?) more to meet my security needs than what he is already agreeing to. I mean as long as I look up the cell usage records there’s no way he can be in contact with her (or some other strange #) via cell call/txt without my knowing. There’s no way he can delete the usage records I have access to, I asked AT&T, lol! I have already questioned him about strange numbers and he has been forthcoming. I feel a little different with regard to email, only because he can obviously delete those, there’s not the usage records like cell. So that is a change I likely will request.

I also go round and round with myself about inserting a tracker on his computer at home. It seems so sneaky and devious, having said that, I also realize he deserves it. I’m also not sure I could stomach the stress of it. Even if someone else read the logs for me, I would still stress tremendously over the anticipation of what ‘might’ come up. On the other hand, I know that the reality is if he IS in contact with her we have NO chance (at least that’s my personal strong belief), so might as well face up to it. I may get there eventually but right at this moment, I just don’t think I’m quite there yet. Usually I just suddenly get real decisive about something and then I just ‘know’ exactly what I want/need, I assume that is what will happen with the home computer tracking. I’ll likely wake up one day and just feel compelled to do it and will.

We are planning to discuss transparency plan with the MC tomorrow so I’m trying to get my own thoughts in order beforehand.

OK. I'll stop pushing. You do need to be fully ready for what you may find out, and it sounds like you're not there yet.

[mdu]

Ugh, is there some way I can look at his phone and see the TextPlus app? I do have the password into his phone so can look directly at it and looks for apps...although not sure if it can somehow be hidden?

[zew]

There are lots of apps that push messages over data. You'll have no record of those at all at phone company - it only tracks SMS messages. All you'll have is data usage. Don't fool yourself with lack of call/SMS records. If they want to go underground, they can. My W got herself a tracfone that she uses only for OM.

[Train]

I think mdu asked this question earlier, and I feel where she's coming from:

If it's so easy for a cheater to go underground and stay one step ahead of us, what's the point of beating our chests about a strict transparency plan?

I don't think that question was ever answered. I'm GUESSING it's because we would at least make things more difficult for them???

I think the answer to that MIGHT help put things into better perspective here.

[mdu]

Ok, thanks, still really trying to noodle this all over. So would you all say that the greatest advantage of doing some sort of unknown intel is that you'll likely figure things out ASAP?

I guess the other thing that I keep thinking is one way or another it will come to a head if he is still involved with her, whether I do intel or not I keep thinking it will come out although will likely take longer. Either our progress will be so dreadfully slow or his attitude will be so bad, it will become more and more obvious to me. Or they'll want to see each other and she's 2 hours away so that's not so easy. Actually, maybe that's one more 'mild' way I can keep track of him without having to suffer seeing something I can't handle. I could look at the mileage on his car and if there's a sudden spike, especially on a day I expect him just to be at work, that would obviously show somethings up. I can't imagine they would go all THAT long without trying to see each other. I also keep assuming (maybe I shouldn't) that she will get so sick of the whole thing if they are still involved that she will push him to out them or she will out them herself.

Thanks to all for reading and reacting, it's certainly a process sorting through options and what's best for me.

[mdu]

Yup, right there with you Train! I think my latest reply touches on that very question!

[Starsky309]

What's the point of DivorceBusting (or any other marriage-saving program), if it's not 100% guaranteed?

Isn't the point to pick something that gives you the BEST chance of success, and minimizes the most mistakes?

The better the transparency plan, the better chance you have of "separating the addict from the source of their addiction," and making reconciliation work.

It also serves a secondary purpose of showing the wayward spouse that the betrayed spouse has boundaries that are non-negotiable, and they won't just save the marriage "at all costs." There is a seriousness to it that is both attractive and garners respect, I believe.


Starsky

[Train]

Boom.

Stellar explanation, Starsky. As usual.

[mdu]

Ugh, and if he's still doing this I just so don't get it! Why not just end it with me? It's so insane, really! I imagine because he wants to be with the kids and doesn't want to hurt them is a large part but obviously this is not sustainable, someone is going to make him choose eventually. So just man up already! I must also add that when I read here (and not saying this is a BAD thing per se) I get more and more paranoid that he is in contact with her. I worry about that too, that my own sensors are wonky and I am unable to read the situation right in front of me and decide things on my own.

[mdu]

Thanks again Starsky. This is helpful perspective

[Train]

mdu,

You have to see his affair as an addiction.

ALL of us have asked: Why wouldn't s/he just leave me first??

We represent stability, comfort, familiarity ... "home." A cheating spouse doesn't necessarily want to leave all that behind. They can also be thinking about the ramifications of leaving: a changing relationship with their children, the cost of divorce, etc.

The affair is intoxicating. It's about how it makes them feel about themselves. It's hard to break that off, to be sure.

Here's the way I look at this forum: When our "sensors are wonky," which they are obviously going to be during a time like this, we have people here who have sensors that are NOT wonky. We need to trust that they've been through this and have our best interests at heart. Many of the vets are here to "give back" since they navigated their way - with help of their own - through these stormy waters. Some have Ms that lasted. Others walked away from their Ms but came out, stronger and more content than ever, on the other side.

You don't have to heed every ounce of advice you get. And, again, much of the advice is going to sound counter-intuitive, and it will challenge you to step way outside your comfort zone.

But know they/we are able to see things you might not be able to see. We aren't in your M, so we aren't clouded by emotions.

Think about that. And strongly consider the awesome advice you are - and will be - receiving here.

Just my random thoughts ...

[mdu]

On a separate but related note, how exactly does one become stronger to handle this sh!t? I feel so weak and like I don't want to deal. I don't know how to make myself buck up already!

[Train]

I think we cross-posted up there. Hahaha.

THIS is why you "GAL," mdu. That's exactly why. You HAVE to take care of you while you're going through this. Take walks. Go have wine with a friend. Vent here.

You become stronger with time. And some effort. But mostly time.

We're here to help!

[mdu]

Thanks so much Train! (and everyone else!)

So I took one small step towards insisting on more transparency. I asked H for credit card login and password info. So silly, it's a joint card so obviously I should have access to this regardless!!! But he always managed it and I always 100% trusted. I'm afraid to look and see what I find but at least he responded immediately. And actually it's the same as another account so not even a HUGE secret. I think if I take this in baby steps maybe I will get stronger and will be able to bite off the tougher intel options.

[mdu]

Looking at the credit card is good news and bad news. Good news is that I don't see any charges that might imply that they have gotten together since he says they split. Obviously, he may have another CC and I would never know. Also, she may be paying for things. So clearly this is not foolproof.

The bad news is it looks like they met up more frequently than he told me. She is 2 hours away and I see charges a few times for a location that is between where we live and she lives that he did not mention. He had previously told me that they met like that only once. Looks like 4-5 times. What should I do with this info? Personally, I am thinking to confront him, something like:

"I see that you two met up in XX location several times, you originally said only once. Each time you lie you continue to break trust. Without complete truth we cannot progress in trying to really fix things and give our marriage a real shot. I must assume that you really do not want work on things and give us the best chance possible. This is not acceptable to me. I potentially will reconsider continuing to working on things when you are ready to show me you will come completely clean and can be completely honest."

[Starsky309]

Personally, I am thinking to confront him, something like:

"I see that you two met up in XX location several times, you originally said only once. Each time you lie you continue to break trust. Without complete truth we cannot progress in trying to really fix things and give our marriage a real shot. I must assume that you really do not want work on things and give us the best chance possible. This is not acceptable to me. I potentially will reconsider continuing to working on things when you are ready to show me you will come completely clean and can be completely honest." Help me understand what I may be missing?

[Starsky309]

In other words, don't assume anything -- give him a chance to explain. If his explanation is half-baked, then you can deliver the speech you outlined. And even if it's FULLY baked, you might want to say "OK, good -- thank you for being honest with me. Because each time . . . . . (and then say the rest of it anyway, just so he's clear).

That's what I would do. But I'm pretty cynical, and might be the high test score here. I'm the kind of guy who would take advantage of, oh, say Target's "free credit tracking" offer that was part of their follow-up on their hacking of their customers' private info, and I might just run a credit report on my spouse, and see if any other secret cc's show up.

But that's just me, and it's ONLY hypothetical, since that would be illegal.


Starsky

[mdu]

Ugh, so it feels like the s*** is totally hitting the fan here and I'm about to lose my s***!!! I just happened to notice when I got home that H's Surface (like an iPad) is not here. I asked him where it was. He claims he brings it to work every day. Hmmm...I must admit I have never noticed/looked so PERHAPS that is true but certainly seems red flaggish after our confrontation just the other day about total transparency.

And I'm looking more closely at the CC charges and he has absolutely lied to me about their encounters, the number and frequency. There is truly NO other explanation for him to have charges in another state without my knowing.

Finally, I did find ONE odd charge after he supposedly cut it off with her. It was while he was traveling and I wonder if it was some sort of computer access or something so he could connect with her.

So I'm freaking out! He is not here now but will be home in about an hour!!! He knows that something is up because of my questions about the Surface. He also asked 'Whats up?' when I asked him when he'd be home. I'm sure he knows I found things on the CC.

I don't know what I should be doing??? He is expecting at least a discussion about the Surface when he gets home. I kept asking questions (this was via txt) and he said 'can we continue this when I get home?' Should I talk about the CC too?? I'm sure he knows I've found things on it since I just asked for the password. I just don't know if I can keep calm enough for this! I frankly don't know if I even should be calm at this point, he's such an a-hole!!!

I hope somehow is around to HELP!!

[MrBond]

You have to understand that people who are in an A do what they call "trickle truths". They slowly give out information because they feel that they "don't want to hurt" the LBS. When in actuality total transparency is best.

Have the two of you decided to go to C since he said he is willing to work things out?

[mdu]

Yes, we have been seeing a MC since this came out.

So should I be really hard on him or not? I am pretty furious. It's so deceiving because when we discussed the timeline and details he seemed SO sincere and truthful. I truly have no idea what to believe and how I can possibly ever trust him again.

[MrBond]

Give him a chance to come clean first. Look at him deep in the eyes and tell him that you understand that its a difficult time for the two of you and that while the two of you are working through your relationship issues, you need him to come clean so that the trust can be rebuilt for you.

Tell him that you found some discrepancies in the credit card charges, so are giving him the opportunity to be honest with you which would be the first step to healing.

Keep your voice in control and level. Don't lose eye contact with him. See how he reacts.

If he gets defensive, don't get emotional. Stay strong and firm.

[mdu]

Thanks MrBond. I am going to try my best. It's so, so hard.

[mdu]

Went horrible. Although I think I handled it pretty well. He was very, very defensive questioning me on specifics. I kept my cool and basically said 'well I have the facts all right here, lets go through line by line.' He admitted only 1 additional meeting with her but it really doesn't add up at all that he would go to the EXACT same town in another state twice but only actually meet her there ONCE. Also, he is claiming he ate ALONE at TGIF's and spent $50. I just don't buy it. There were also several charges, again in the state she lives which he could not explain. There were additional charges that I wanted to ask about but I just stopped, he was so obviously not at all using this as a chance to come clean and make amends. I really don't know WTH to do next. Now he's PISSED and stomping around, obviously another very bad sign. If someone is out there please advise. I am tempted to lose it and kick him out! I can't believe the direction this is going and have no clue HTH I will sleep tonite I just so hate how he claimed he wants to work on it when he so obviously does NOT!!!

[Train]

This is just me, but I would advise against kicking him out.

Take 10 deep breaths.

You are in control of you. Get control. And then let's chat. And wait on vets. Lol.

[scooby]

MDU

Sorry the conversation did not go well. Sounds like he is acting like a 2 year old now. I heard you say that you are not strong. I disagree! You are very strong to be putting up with this nonsense and not having a nervous breakdown. Take a deep breath! Go to another room opposite of him. Vent on the forum, or watch tv, or go to bed early, or go for a drive. It won't do any good to talk to him some more because he is mad and pouting. He knows that you know what happened now. Hopefully he will be ready to talk about it soon. I missed it - Is he done with the affair, or is he still having it?

Keep your chin up. You are very strong - the weak are the ones that give up. Find something to laugh about if possible - it helps heal.

[Train]

A few points to remember, from Starsky's previous advice:

stop leading with your EMOTIONS, and rather to lead with a PLAN.

I'll stop pushing. You do need to be fully ready for what you may find out, and it sounds like you're not there yet.

Something tells me - if you're now ready for it - Starsky will be on here "pushing" soon.

[Train]

Also remember, mdu, cheaters LIE. It's not just your H. It's allllll of them. He's going to lie right now. A lot of them believe they're "protecting" YOU by lying to you. Mostly, it's self-preservation, of course.

You're going to get through this. We're here to help. And I fully agree with tld. You are AMAZINGLY strong. And you're showing SUCH grace in the face of this nightmare. Don't lose it now! Don't continue talking to him. Let him stew. Give it tonight. And vent here. I'm here to listen.

Tonight/Tomorrow, we'll come up with a PLAN. DON'T LEAD BY EMOTIONS. Please remember that.

[mdu]

He claims the A is done but I've been suspicious not, now even moreso.

[mdu]

Well Starsky can push but now I don't even have a chance to install any sort of tracking on his computer, he is keeping it very, very close to him. As well as his phone. Surprise, surprise!

[Train]

Okay, so is this "closeness" with his phone and computer only now, after you confronted him?

[mdu]

Tonight/Tomorrow, we'll come up with a PLAN. DON'T LEAD BY EMOTIONS. Please remember that.

A plan would be fabulous and I'm sure would give me some measure of relief. I am a planner actually! We have a MC apt tomorrow, which I'm actually wondering about now. Not so sure it will help, MC has been so update and optimistic about our marriage, wonder what he will say/think now. I am worried he will think what I did was wrong. I don't know him well enough yet to say.

[mdu]

Okay, so is this "closeness" with his phone and computer only now, after you confronted him?

It seems to be the last few days since I've been pushing more on transparency

[Train]

Okay, well until someone with more experience can weigh in, and we can put our heads together to get you a plan formulated, here's a little bit of comfort:

The information you gleaned today from the cc company is about your H's PAST behavior ... things that occurred BEFORE he supposedly ended his A with her.

I'm not convinced that he is no longer in contact with her, mind you. But we don't have that information yet. Unless I'm mistaken, all you have is more proof of the affair BEFORE he supposedly ended it. Yes?

I'm not saying that's not hurtful enough because it IS. The lying is just as hurtful as anything else in these As.

But let's try to look at some things to help comfort you a little this late at night. I know it's going to be a longgggg night for you. I'll be up for a while if you need to vent. ((((Hugs))))

[mdu]

Ugh, it's just the fact that he would be so defensive. Although he is a horribly defensive person by nature so I don't know why I'm surprised. I just can't believe even when he has done THIS he will be so horribly defensive. It just comes off that he clearly is NOT interested in working on things. And I know he must have a million more lies, the CC is only a fraction of the story. This was an opportunity to try to make some amends and he obviously does NOT want to. WTH is he doing here and why did he tell me and MC (and even his family) that he wanted to recommit and work on things?? That I just don't get!

And now I really don't even know how I possibly could get intel as to whether he is still involved with her or not. As I said, he has his devices close now so I couldn't get on them to install something even if I wanted to.

[mdu]

There are a couple of sort of odd charges post A supposedly ending. I'm not sure what to make of them but stopped asking because it was obvious he was not going to be completely truthful. But these odd charges are pre our latest agreement that we would work on things so they're sort of in a gray/middle ground, I guess.

Get this, one of the charges (which he denies) is for gas in the state she lives in on Valentine's day. Guess who drove 4 hours round trip just to see his honey on V-day!! And then he and I had a nice dinner/fire that night! I wonder if she has any clue!

[Train]

Well, we've established cheaters are liars. We also know they are addicted to their affair partners. And that they're behaving in a very selfish manner. So don't let much about what you're seeing in him *surprise* you. He's not the man you married right now.

It's obviously time for you to create some boundaries for YOU.

So what would those boundaries be?

What are deal breakers for you?

Where would you "draw your lines"?

[mdu]

Well, we've established cheaters are liars. We also know they are addicted to their affair partners. And that they're behaving in a very selfish manner. So don't let much about what you're seeing in him *surprise* you. He's not the man you married right now.

It's obviously time for you to create some boundaries for YOU.

So what would those boundaries be?

What are deal breakers for you?

Where would you "draw your lines"?

The thing is...I keep reflecting and thinking, this actually IS the man I married. He's always been highly defensive. I wonder if he will truly ever be sorry for this, even if he were to come completely out of the fog. He's also an avoider and I believe he tends to tell little lies, even outside of the affair, I'm sure more than I even realize. He's also always been kind of selfish. And I've also always had a bit of concern at times that he does not have clear enough boundaries with women. So with all that, I really, really wonder how realistic it is that we could possibly save this??? I'm becoming more and more doubtful it's worth trying...

As for my boundaries. I need him to be fully committed to TRYING. It's ok if his feelings aren't there yet but I feel what we agreed to was that we were both going to TRY and if that's not what he's willing to do then we probably need to separate again. Although I'm hesitating a bit on that, I guess because I feel like separation really means THE END because we both agreed we would not keep putting the kids through multiple separations/reconciliations.

Trying includes: No contact, full transparency and accountability agreement, honesty, MCing. I can deal with him brooding and even defensive for a night but if he does not come around soon with some honesty and agree to the transparency then it's hopeless in my mind. Having said all that, I do worry a bit that he is too fearful to be honest. So while it totally pisses me off, I do see that as still a real possibility.

Gah, obviously I'm all over the map! Fortunately my doc gave me some sleeping pills, I promise to take one very soon!

[Train]

Only YOU can decide if it's worth trying. But I don't think you're near "done" yet.

Being all over the map is okay. And expected. That's why you're here.

TRY to get some rest tonight. Don't engage with him anymore. Post here first. And then, wait for folks to chime in to work on your PLAN before you make ANY moves. That's what we're all here for.

I'll be checking back tomorrow, when I am SURE at least Starsky - who I believe to be a guru at this - will have already responded. He said the other day:

My advice would change entirely based on whether or not he's in contact with OW, and being fully transparent with you and at least WILLING to work on this (even if not yet fully FEELING like it). That's why I'm so big on intel and good transparency plans, because it changes my strategy and tactics almost ENTIRELY.

We know your H likely isn't being "fully transparent" now.

Just try to rest assured, knowing you're in awfully good hands here. Sending you positive thoughts. And I'll be back here, checking in, very soon. Hang tight!

[mdu]

Still up and rambling...
I can't help but think I must be really rattling him and making him confront how incredibly cruddy he has been. One of the items I questioned him on (and he denied) would start the affair one full month prior to what he originally told me. AND it would mean it started just a couple of days after our anniversary. We had a really nice anniversary this year. And as I mentioned on Valentine's day there was a gas charge that shows he obviously drove down to where she lives, we had a nice Valentine's evening together (which I had planned). I feel like this all might be kind of blowing his cover story that I am such the evil one when he did this literally on or right after some really nice times between us.

[Train]

Ugh. Girl. Don't get me started! My 10th anniversary was Valentine's. Nice, expensive dinner. A sweet dance in the dining room. Extravagant gifts. And then he acted like he went to sleep ... and texted OW alllllll night.

They are NOT the men we married right now. Yes, there are crummy qualities about them that we've overlooked in time. We alllll have crummy qualities.

But the special times don't mean CRAP to them right now. They're "in love" with someone else. Keep that in mind, as much as it hurts. That's what you're up against right now. Which is why you HAVE to approach this with a plan and not your emotions.

I'm so sorry I don't feel comfortable helping you formulate said plan. I am not at a place where I can give that to you. BUT, you don't need the plan TONIGHT anyway.

As long as you need support through the gut-wrenching moments, though, I'm your girl!

[scooby]

MDU-

I am so sorry that he cannot be honest with you. Hopefully eventually he will wise up, and learn you cannot move forward until he is honest. I think the therapist will tell him that he has to be honest, and completely dump the OW for it to work.

Sometimes I wonder why they are such bad liars. Do they want to be caught? Is it the excitement of the A where they cannot think well enough to lie?

My H is a very bad liar, but now he is starting to believe his lies - dumb huh? He is in MLC so it is a little different than your situation, and we are no where near reconciliation.

Get some rest! Hopefully they will help you with your plan tomorrow.

[mdu]

Sleeping pill and still only got 4 hours of sleep last night.
Well, at least we have MC apt today, that will certainly be telling.

It just dawned on me that his dishonestly is likely more a reflection of protecting her and an ongoing relationship than his trying to protect me or his own pride. I still have no idea how I can confirm a relationship at this point. Or maybe I should just go ahead and assume that and act accordingly, given all this behaviors. Not at all sure what I want to do, so much to think about. UGH!

[mdu]

I also just found a love song he's been playing obviously all about her. How he loves her, wants her back, and keeps chasing after her, etc. I actually wonder if he's been trying to reconcile with HER and she is not having it. He has (very stupidly) said a few times when I question him going back with her 'well that presumes she would want me back'. Maybe she's DBing better than me and playing hard to get!!!

[Train]

IF he's still involved with OW, chances are the MC won't help, at best, and will do more harm than good, at worst. I've been reading up on that, and many people agree with that.

Don't waste your time mind-reading. You have NO idea what your H is thinking or who he thinks he's protecting. Or even if he's thinking beyond the nose on his face.

Also, try not to "assume" anything. And certainly don't ACT on assumptions. I'd think that can do a lot more harm than good.

I'm sorry you didn't sleep well.

[mdu]

Ugh, so how should I handle the MC appt?

I know this probably sounds a bit out there but I was thinking to print off the lyrics from the love song that H has been listening to and handing it to the MC when I get there. It so clearly shows how much he is pining for her, wanting to get back with her and apparently chasing after her. Literally all those statements are in the song. I guess I just want to get the MCs head straight that H is NOT in this like he has been stating in prior sessions. MC is so optomistic and positive, he needs to understand the REALITY of where we are at if any discussion will be even remotely useful. And I'm not even saying to repair the M at this point, just to get all the cards fairly on the table so I can make a decision about next steps. I'm sure that's probably a pipe dream given how completely GONE H is.

[Train]

He has (very stupidly) said a few times when I question him going back with her 'well that presumes she would want me back'. Maybe she's DBing better than me and playing hard to get!!!

... or MAYBE she has decided it's not her best option to pursue a married man. The thing is: IF she broke things off with your H ... or IF he broke things off with her ... you're sitting a lot prettier than many people here.

Many Ms survive infidelity, and, from what I've read, the chances of success are higher when the A ends abruptly. Still, your H WILL be going through a period of sadness, mourning and withdrawal from OW. She is an *addiction*.

I seriously had a dream last night that I was here, on the boards, and that Starsky had replied to my post (lol - imagine that: Starsky is now in my freaking dreams ). Anyway, his advice (in said dream) was profound: When your H is in a tunnel - and you feel there's no light at the end of the tunnel - remember: It's your job to BECOME the light.

You do that by working on you and becoming the better option. You won't "become the light" by being critical, grumpy, or indecisive. You are confidant, strong, poised ... ALL the time.

Pretty stinkin' profound, eh? Good words, errr, Starsky.

[Starsky309]

Went horrible. Although I think I handled it pretty well. He was very, very defensive questioning me on specifics. I kept my cool and basically said 'well I have the facts all right here, lets go through line by line.' He admitted only 1 additional meeting with her but it really doesn't add up at all that he would go to the EXACT same town in another state twice but only actually meet her there ONCE. Also, he is claiming he ate ALONE at TGIF's and spent $50. I just don't buy it. There were also several charges, again in the state she lives which he could not explain. There were additional charges that I wanted to ask about but I just stopped, he was so obviously not at all using this as a chance to come clean and make amends. I really don't know WTH to do next. Now he's PISSED and stomping around, obviously another very bad sign. If someone is out there please advise. I am tempted to lose it and kick him out! I can't believe the direction this is going and have no clue HTH I will sleep tonite I just so hate how he claimed he wants to work on it when he so obviously does NOT!!!

mdu,

I'm sorry it certainly seems like your husband is still not being honest and transparent with you. Only you can decide what you now are prepared to DO about that. You certainly do NOT owe him any explanations of your plans (or even us, for that matter -- altho we're certainly here to try to help support you no matter what you decide).

In the meantime, you have GOT to keep your cool around him, and simply tell him "Well, it looks like we both have some important decisions to make then."

All of this drama is not healthy for you, and it only is going to push him further away. You at all times want to appear as THE most sensible person in the room (or on the phone) when you're dealing with him.


Starsky

[Starsky309]

I still have no idea how I can confirm a relationship at this point. Or maybe I should just go ahead and assume that and act accordingly, given all this behaviors.

Yes, I think that's precisely what you should do.


Starsky

[mdu]

Thanks Train! I am so ready to give up :-(

The only thing I could possibly see coming out of the MC session that would maybe be useful and would actually make me continue to hang in there is if H agreed to meet with someone individually to sort through his feelings for (and whatever else he's doing) OW. He's obviously struggling with it and that's the road block. He's lost in his head and I wonder if speaking to an outside professional without me present so he can deal with it all frankly would help him and us come to some resolution around next steps.

[mdu]

Thanks for jumping in Starsky! For the record, despite my rambling and ranting posts I did keep my cool around him last night so I *think* I did pretty well (at least in front of him)

[Starsky309]

Thanks Train! I am so ready to give up :-(

The only thing I could possibly see coming out of the MC session that would maybe be useful and would actually make me continue to hang in there is if H agreed to meet with someone individually to sort through his feelings for (and whatever else he's doing) OW. He's obviously struggling with it and that's the road block. He's lost in his head and I wonder if speaking to an outside professional without me present so he can deal with it all frankly would help him and us come to some resolution around next steps.

You can do what you want, mdu, but many ICs simply help people justify their waywardness, and there's a reason why they get referred to as "divorce counselors" around here. Your husband's FEELINGS for another woman while he is still married should be a separate issue from the DECISION he needs to make with regards to your boundaries. If it were me, I would say ONCE you decide to end all contact and return to the marriage (including going to MC with me, with someone specifically trained to deal with infidelity), if you decide an IC would help you get to the root of why you made the destructive decisions you did, I think that's great. But right now, I need to protect myself and the only way I can move forward is if you end all contact with OW and become fully transparent with me, and attend the MC sessions.

But that's just me.

Your husband's feelings (which he's shown to be inappropriate and even destructive) should have nothing whatsoever to do with your decision-making, and your boundaries.


Starsky

[Starsky309]

Thanks for jumping in Starsky! For the record, despite my rambling and ranting posts I did keep my cool around him last night so I *think* I did pretty well (at least in front of him)

Oh, OK -- i was just going by the frantic tone of your posts last nite. That's good then.


Starsky

[mdu]

You can do what you want, mdu, but many ICs simply help people justify their waywardness, and there's a reason why they get referred to as "divorce counselors" around here. Your husband's FEELINGS for another woman while he is still married should be a separate issue from the DECISION he needs to make with regards to your boundaries. If it were me, I would say ONCE you decide to end all contact and return to the marriage (including going to MC with me, with someone specifically trained to deal with infidelity), if you decide an IC would help you get to the root of why you made the destructive decisions you did, I think that's great. But right now, I need to protect myself and the only way I can move forward is if you end all contact with OW and become fully transparent with me, and attend the MC sessions.

But that's just me.

Your husband's feelings (which he's shown to be inappropriate and even destructive) should have nothing whatsoever to do with your decision-making, and your boundaries.


Starsky

Thanks Starsky! Very helpful perspective

[Train]

So, Starsky, just so *I* understand:

You're saying, yes, make assumptions and act on them - but only by creating boundaries FOR mdu, yes?

[Starsky309]

So, Starsky, just so *I* understand:

You're saying, yes, make assumptions and act on them - but only by creating boundaries FOR mdu, yes?

I'm not sure I understand the question, Train. I'm saying that based on the evidence, even if he has an innocent explanation for 50% of it, there's still contact and deceit going on, and that mdu should proceed accordingly rather than continue to try to go to any further lengths to prove anything.

[mdu]

Good golly I am about to go to the MC appt in 45 minutes and feel like I am going to have a heart attack or vomit or both. I need to get a grip (obviously!). I'm really still uncertain what I should DO in the appt. Use it as an opportunity to declare all my boundaries? Just shut up, sit back and let H speak first and listen to what he has to say? Slip the MC my list of boundaries so we can get on the same page? I hope that clarity comes to me in a very short while here!!

[Starsky309]

Who set up the appt? What do you know about this MC? (pro-marriage? pro-DB? Any specific experience dealing with infidelity?)

You should definitely have a short list of goals going in. You may want to let your H talk first (hoping if you give him enough rope, he'll hang himself, lol), but then clearly state what YOUR goals are, and I would keep it SIMPLE:

"Until my husband is willing to end all contact with his affair partner, and be fully honest and transparent with me, I not only can't feel safe in the marriage, but I don't even see the sense in continuing with marriage counseling. It's a waste of our family's finances to do marriage counseling when one of us has unilaterally decided to invite a third person into the marriage."

He can list all of the prior marital complaints he wants, but I would respond "That's an interesting list, and while I'm not going to say right now whether I agree or disagree with all of them, I think you will find that if you end all contact with OW and return to the marriage, and be fully honest and transparent with me, that I am willing to work on all issues -- including my own contributions to our marital dysfunction. But as long as there's a third person in the marriage, I'm afraid this is a waste of time."

And then personally (and this is just me -- I'm a bit of a drama queen ) . . . I'd get up and leave, saying "Looks like there's still about _____ minutes left; I'm sure you two still have a lot to talk about."




Starsky

[Train]

^^^ Perfect!!!

[mdu]

Update and background on MC..

We had agreed to and have been seeing a MC from the first week this all came out. MC has 35 years experience and says he sees and deals with infidelity every day. I don’t know if he has DBing experience, I did not ask when we started seeing him. He was recommended by a friend.

Ok, so I must request for folks to please not freak and/or push me as I’m still trying to process and decide for myself WTH just happened and WTH I am doing. But I wanted to at least give an update on the MC appt. MC really takes at face value what H is saying about not having contact with OW. I’m not saying that he feels I should necessarily just take it at face value too but I must admit I didn’t really take the opportunity to make demands about what I would need to feel safe. I don’t know why exactly because I went in very prepared to. H continues to insist that he has not had contact with OW since March 7th, when he broke it off with her via phone.

H and I got into a pretty heated argument while there. He clearly feels like I’m just going to hold this over this head forever. Not that it’s really been that long but based on how I’ve treated him about things he’s done in the past. He seems to feel that it’s “in the past and we all know it was wrong so let’s just work on moving forward”. He also felt my attitude last night while questioning him was sort of obnoxious (I really tried not to be) which set him off, supposedly. I tried to question him (and so did the MC) on what specifically was obnoxious and he could not give specifics.

He was defensive and cold the whole appointment. He did finally at least fess up that he saw her on Valentine’s day but I had to ask him very specifically, he obviously couldn’t deny it bc there’s a gas charge on the CC. MC seemed much less concerned about getting caught up in lies during the affair but to me this is a NEW lie because I asked him about it last night. I did express that. He left the appointment basically saying he ‘did not know how he feels’ and just ‘needed some time’.
I am just trying to process it all and figure out where I stand, what I want/need, WTH I’m doing. Thanks again to everyone for listening.

[Starsky309]

Thanks for the update, mdu. Glad you made it through okay!


Starsky

[scooby]

MDU-

So H wants you to heal on his terms...perfect! I understand him wanting to leave the past in the past, but if you don't deal with it, it will keep coming up. Tell him you need to face what happened and process and cope and deal with it now. If you do not it will be brought up time and time again - just like the other things he mentioned. In my IC, I am having to deal with things from past that have nothing to do with H - so that I can better handle situations when they come up.

Not too brilliant of him to use the CC. That seems to be a common mistake. I was told they got the date wrong when he ordered a movie - he said it was when we watched a movie like a month ago. UMMM I am not that blonde! WTF - they lies are getting worse. H is even starting to believe his own lies and tells truth maybe 10% of time.

Good luck with next MC session and the monster.