You will be ok, we know you can do this, and one way or another it will be fine
When the student its ready, the teacher will appear... Even after all this time the sun never says to the Earth, "You owe me." Look what happens with a love like that,It lights the whole sky.
Today was a good day. H and our friend came to the house this morning to get things ready to go in the smoker. I had already been planning to do yard work. I asked H if he would mind going to the store to pick up mulch because he drives a truck and I drive a small car. I weeded and cleaned out flower beds and then when H got back I helped unload the bags of mulch and then put it in the flower beds. It was a lot of work, but my yard looks great!
After that, I took a shower. Our friend was hanging out with D7 outside. I was startled when my H walked into the bathroom as I was washing my hair. He made some flirty comment and then left. When I got out of the shower, H came back into my bedroom...and then we ML. I was not expecting that at all (no expectations, right?). Who knows what excuse my H made to the friend for our extended absence, but I'm not really worried about that.
H and our friend left to go pick up lunch, so I did my hair and makeup and made sure I looked my best before they got back. The rest of the day was really casual and low-key. We all watched a movie together and enjoyed dinner. I didn't feel awkward at all and really just allowed myself to enjoy the day. Even now, though I'm thinking about it, it's mostly just to journal, not to obsess over every detail. I think that's progress.
I'm still working on the balance between noticing the small positives and not developing expectations. My initial inclination is not to take stock of the positives because I don't want to form expectations or false hope. However, I was rereading part of DR tonight and I'm glad I did. I think I really needed to take another look at the section on Step Number 6 - Taking Stock. In particular, the following passage struck me:
"Allow yourself to notice and feel encouraged by the small signs. You need to feel hope. While it's true that there are no guarantees about the future, if things don't work out the way you hope, you'll deal with it then."
So, if I'm taking stock, I'd say that my H's flirtatiousness of late and the fact that he's being affectionate, and initiating ML, are small positives of which I should take note.
I forgot to mention one thing. My H was apparently misreading signals from our friend. This friend spent a while talking to me about the ten year anniversary trip he and his wife are planning and how excited he is about it. I realize he could just be choosing not to talk about it with me, but I decided not to ask my H about it. It isn't my business unless our friend chooses to share with me. In any case, it seems that those fears of mine were unfounded after all.
I've been rereading DR more slowly and studying it carefully. I think the first time I read it, I was so distraught and looking for something to work--quickly--that I didn't slow down and follow all the steps. Last night, I actually wrote out my goals and then revised them into actions and smaller chunks. I'm really glad that I went back to do this. It's such an important step.
I was listening to music yesterday as I was cleaning up the house and heard a song that really resonated with me: Maybe by Ingrid Michaelson. Some of the lyrics are below:
I don't wanna be the first to let it go But I know, I know, I know If you have the last hands that I want to hold Then I know I've got to let them go
'Cause maybe in the future you're gonna come back You're gonna come back around Maybe in the future you're gonna come back You're gonna come back
Oh, the only way to really know is to really let it go Maybe you're gonna come back, you're gonna come back You're gonna come back
Ugh...As I was typing that last post, I received a frustrating text from my H. He told D7 that he would come to her school for lunch last Friday, but he forgot. When I mentioned their lunch plans in a phone conversation, he seemed really frustrated with himself because he had scheduled something at work and couldn't make it. He talked to D7 Thursday night and told her he would go on Monday (today) instead. This morning he called me to ask what time her lunch was. I told him and also told him that she asked me to come, too. He asked if I would pick up lunch for the three of us. I agreed. He also mentioned that he had to go to the courthouse to pay a ticket that he received a few weeks ago. About twenty minutes ago, he called and asked if I could fax a copy of our insurance card to the courthouse for him. I told him I would. Then I got this text message:
There is going to be no way I can make that lunch today. I won't be getting out of here anytime soon. I will have to do it tomorrow with her.
If I hadn't agreed to go today, she would have just been waiting for him to show up and he never would have been there. I find that infuriating.
So, I have a couple of questions.
1. Am I wrong to be annoyed? I see this is a relatively big deal. I realize that my D7 is going to be disappointed sometimes, but I really wish it wasn't my H that caused it.
2. Do I respond to his text message at all? I could just say, "OK. I'll still be there." I'm open to suggestions.
3. He and I have been having very positive interactions. Is this something that falls in the category of "not my sandbox"? If it does, I assume that I should continue to interact with him in the same way because what I'm doing seems to be working.
With regard to H missing lunch with D7 today, I just acted normal. I never responded to his text, but he called while I was with her. I did not answer, so he texted to tell her that he loves her and will have lunch with her on Wednesday. She was disappointed when she first realized he wasn't there, but she and I had a great time together.
H called me on my way home from work (this was a pre-BD routine) and asked me about my job search and filled me in on his plans for the evening (studying). I wished him good luck and got off the phone after a couple of minutes. I had a good PMA during our phone call. What's more surprising is that it's actually felt natural recently!
This evening when H came to tuck in D7, he seemed a little distant. In the first month or so after he moved out, I would have texted him after he left asking what was going on and why he was distant. That never ended well. Even a week or two ago, I would have been very tempted to ask those sorts of questions. Today, it was really just something I observed. I don't feel particularly driven to figure out why. I've run through some scenarios in my head:
-He feels guilty for disappointing D7. -He is backing off because we ML twice in just a few days and he doesn't want me to get "false hope." -He is just distracted because of studying and catching up on schoolwork after a week of traveling and then having a friend visit.
It could be any, all, or none of these, of course. I'm proud of myself for being more accepting of the fact that I don't know why he was acting distant. He might think he wasn't distant at all. Regardless, it doesn't change anything for me.
H was acting less distant during the day today--texting, emailing, and calling. He still seemed distant in person when I saw him tonight though. He said he was working on school assignments again. I haven't had a temptation to text and find out what is bothering him. I did keep a good PMA when he was here. Both of those things are progress for me, especially considering that I've felt he was pulling back two nights in a row.
I've figured out that one of the things I need to work on is control. It seems to be a common theme on the boards. I have been called both a control freak and a perfectionist. I am also prone to anxiety. I am very uncomfortable with things being outside my control. It isn't really hard to figure out where those issues originated. My parents split up when I was seven. I was raised by a single father with my mother only sporadically around. My mom has been married--and divorced--five times. I actually had one stepdad who I never even met. I lived in another state and their M was so short that it was over before I came back to visit. As the oldest child, I took on a lot of the responsibility. I also never wanted to disappoint anyone, myself included. Upon reflection, I definitely try to control things that really aren't within my control. I think it is so ingrained in me that I'm not even aware that I do it. Any book recommendations related to this?
I find it really depressing to come home from work to an empty house. The days when D7 isn't here are particularly hard. I can't imagine that I'll ever get used to this. I'm fine being alone and value a certain amount of alone time, but I really like to be around people, particularly people I care about. Even the dog doesn't seem to know what to do when it is just the two of us.
I do have GAL plans with my sister a little later after she gets her kids in bed, so that should help put an end to this pity party!
Hope - some book recommendations for you! Codependent No More (Melody Beattie) Codependency for Dummies (can't remember the author right now but it's got the same yellow/black title as all the other "for Dummies" books, I imagine there's only one!)
Both are good but in different ways, hard for me to say which is better if you had to choose one. I'd recommend reading both. The first one is a bit more narrative and has more references to relationships w/ alcoholics or being the adult child of an alcoholic, but still has plenty of general info. I read that one first. Codependency for Dummies is a little concrete/instructional, though longer. That one is easier to read certain parts at a time as it's divided up into a bunch of sections. It has a lot of specific exercises and questions to ask yourself or think through. There is a section all about relationships and patterns, expectations in relationships, etc. that I found helpful. There is a "Codependent No More" workbook also by Melody Beattie, but I'm having a harder time getting into that one. It follows the 12 step model, which I understand the value of, but am still trying to make it fit with my beliefs/values (I'm athiest so it's hard to think of what a "higher power" would be for me). Labug may have some other recommendations, too.
As I'm sure you've seen on my board I'm discovering I struggle with these things, too... which I think plays into my trust issues that keep coming up with H. I cried a lot when I read the Melody Beattie book because a lot of the things she talks about I just thought were totally normal behaviors and that's what you did. Like, thinking carefully before you say something to someone to try to make sure you get the desired effect. I thought everyone did that. She lists out a bunch of codependent behaviors and that's right up there.
Me:30 H:29, no kids T:12, M:4 (when D was final) 12/13: "Don't think I want to be M anymore" 6/14: Separated (I move) 1/15: H filed for D 5/15: D final
Thank you for the recommendations, KGirl! I'll definitely check them out. I never thought of myself as codependent, but what I've read on your thread and a couple of others has really reminded me of behavior that I exhibit, so I think it is worth me looking into.
Originally Posted By: KGirl
Like, thinking carefully before you say something to someone to try to make sure you get the desired effect. I thought everyone did that. She lists out a bunch of codependent behaviors and that's right up there.
I'm absolutely guilty of this^^^^^. I actually spent some time after reading your post justifying that behavior to myself.
Total silence from H today, which is abnormal. I am proud of myself for not spending every moment wondering if I was going to hear from him. It was actually just an hour or so I go that I realized I hadn't heard anything at all. It might not seem like much, but it's really pretty good progress for me.
I was doing much better earlier today when H was in total silence mode. He called me on my way home from work wanting to talk about weekend plans. It is his weekend, but he agreed that I could have D7 from Saturday afternoon until Sunday at dinner time for Easter. He mentioned today that he wanted to be part of the Easter-morning basket thing. I told him he was welcome to come to the house early that morning. He kept saying he didn't know what his plans were for Saturday evening. I told him he could join us for coloring eggs and he brushed the suggestion off. Then, I was stupid, and said he could stay at the house on Saturday so he could see D7 first thing Sunday morning when she saw what the bunny left for her. H didn't saying anything negative, but the conversation became very awkward.
Then, tonight, I went to H's apartment to see D7 and tuck her in. H gave me cash to cover his half of auto insurance and some other mutual bills. He has been just depositing it into my account. He has access since I just kept our joint checking account. I asked if he could just have the money transferred to my account in the future so that I didn't have to go to the bank. You would have thought that I'd suggested he climb Mount Everest or something. He gave me a whole lecture about how it isn't that hard for me to go to the bank and he's been inconvenienced every other month by having to do it. I wanted to scream, "Yes, but you chose this, so you deserve the inconvenience." I did not, but I was in tears by this point. I think it was the two awkward conversations in just a few hours that caused that.
I need to learn not to touch my phone when I'm upset. After I left, we had the following conversation via text:
Me: Please don't act like I'm being the difficult one. I don't want any of this...(embarrassing exchanges of money, awkward conversations about splitting time with D7.)
H: Okay, understood.
Me: ?
H: ?
Me: I don't know what you mean you understand. I'm really not trying to be dense.
H: I understand what you're saying.
In retrospect, I recognize that none of that gets my closer to my goal of R. I need to work harder on not acting out of emotion, clearly. I think this also means that I was building up expectations (again) after our positive interactions recently. His pulling back over the last couple of days bothered me more than I thought.
Hi Hope; I hear you. My wife moved out last Nov 2013 and I discovered her affair a month later. The house is empty and lonely and it's been a long haul over the last 4 months. She's still seeing the OP but claims she's not sleeping with him and I believe her. We see each other almost every day. I've made a plan and am sticking to it as best I can. I wrote the plan out - it's 6 pages longs and includes the 37 rules: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2250607#Post2250607
I reread the plan almost daily. It helps me keep focused. It takes an inordinate amount of self-discipline and self-control. I hear you.
Just remember that this is probably the hardest thing you've done in your life and be proud of your self for fighting for your marriage. You're a good person. Make a written plan. Be Constant, Calm, Consistent and Committed. When your buttons get pushed, just be loving and calm. I know it's hard. I've lost it a couple of time and had to backpedal and apologize. I think we're making headway, but it's a slow process. It may take months. I know that's hard to fathom. I have difficulty with it often. I cry. I scream (when alone). But when in your spouses presence you have to be happy, calm, peaceful, contented. Like it says, be the spouse only a fool would want to leave. That means changing yourself. That's hard to do but absolutely necessary. Keep in mind that if all goes to crap and the marriage ends, that you've improved yourself to the point where you'll make someone else an excellent spouse. Keep the faith. You are worthy of love. You deserve love. You will be ok, no matter what happens. Write a plan. Stick to the plan. Michelle Weiner-Davis has some great material - she's a life-saver. Don't limit yourself though. Check out * Dr Dana Fillmore, Willard Harley and Gary Chapman. Become a student of relationships. Knowledge is a powerful thing and personal power is what you need to endure this turmoil. The only thing you can control is yourself: your behavior, your reactions to your spouse's behavior, your feelings. Learn thought-stopping. Self control is absolutely critical at this time in your life, and the lessons you learn will bode you well now and forever. I only wish the best for you. Keep your chin up.
I have it printed out in a booklet and reread it constantly. It takes
Last edited by dbmod; 05/16/1411:58 PM. Reason: Removed reference that is neither recommended nor allowed
The awkwardness from yesterday did not continue on today. H brought D7 to the house this morning. They are going fishing today and needed to pick fishing gear that is stored in the garage. I'm really excited that H is taking the time to spend some quality time with D7. She has asked him to go fishing many times, but he usually just goes with his friends. Celebrate the 1 percent, right?
So, he called to tell me that they would be over in a few minutes. We talked on the phone about cute behavior from D7. She talks in her sleep and we'd both been entertained recently by some of the stuff she said, so we swapped stories. They got here and he loaded his truck...and then raided my pantry for snacks. The conversation wasn't stilted or awkward. I wished them a good time and they left.
I plan to scrub my floors today (very cathartic for me!), finish reading a book I've been wanting to read (not self-help, for pleasure only ), and then get ready to go out for dinner/drinks to celebrate a friend's birthday. All of those things should help me keep a good PMA.
I had a great night! I went to see D7 at H's apartment before I left to meet my friends. When I got there, H said to D7, "Mommy looks really nice" and then muttered something along the lines of, "She looks too nice." As I was leaving, he asked me to text him to let him know that I made it home safely. I did text him when I got home (a little after 1 am) and he responded almost immediately asking if I had a good time. I told him that I had a great time. He then said, "I saw a pic of you with a bunch of guys and {friend} ." He must have been referring to one of the group pictures that my friends were posting on FB. My H is friends with my closest friends on FB, so he would have seen them. I guess it is a good sign that he noticed.
Trying hard not to mindread and just observe...My H has made two other comments today about my night last night. Me going out with a big group of people without H is pretty atypical for me. He called to find out when I wanted him to drop D7 off today and said something about the group of guys I was with (honestly, the group was split about 50/50).
Then he called a few minutes ago seemingly just to chat. He asked what I was doing and I told him cleaning the house. He said that he and D7 were cleaning his apartment today and washed the sheets. I said, "Oh, I washed sheets yesterday." His response was, "Oh, just in case you met a friend?" I wasn't really sure how to respond to that, so I said, "Yes, that's exactly why." He said he was just giving me a hard time. I didn't act offended or bothered by his questions. He'll be here in about an hour to drop D7 off. I have no idea what he'll say then. Any tips on what to say if he brings it up again?
Sounds like its sparked his interest - ideal opportunity to add a little mystery - if he's asking questions just be a little vague and maybe keep yourself busy whilst he's around.
Glad you had a good night
Divorce Final: Oct 2014
Your struggles today, develop strength for tomorrow...
H dropped D7 off a little while ago. He seemed really upset when he did so. I asked if everything was OK and he brushed off the question. Then he told me that D7 told him she wanted to stay with me tomorrow night, too. I think his feelings were hurt. I validated and told him I was sorry and I understand that it s*cks when things like that happen. I called a few hours later to ask him to drop our camera off so that I could take pictures of Easter stuff tomorrow. He still didn't seem quite himself. I know...not my sandbox. I want to know what's bothering him, but I am at least to the point where I don't assume it must be about me, or us. Maybe (hopefully) that's a step in the right direction?
I'm struggling a bit tonight. Easter will be the first holiday we've spent apart. For me, it is a religious holiday as well as the bunny/eggs stuff. It will be the first Easter in which I play Easter bunny (filling D7's basket with goodies) by myself. She still believes so I find it to be a special, magical time. She wrote a note to the Easter bunny before she went to bed. Then reminded me several times not to stay up too late because she's worried the Easter bunny won't come if I'm still up.
H seemed to be in a better mood when he dropped the camera off. He gave me a hug, but is still acting very distant. I guess I'll try to pretend like it doesn't bother me...until it actually doesn't bother me. That's supposed to happen someday, right?
Hope, I haven't had an opportunity to read your threads yet, but will.
Read the Melody Beattie books. Also there's a very good book on boundaries by Anne Katherine.
lot of the things she talks about I just thought were totally normal behaviors and that's what you did. Like, thinking carefully before you say something to someone to try to make sure you get the desired effect. I thought everyone did that.
This was so me, I manipulated in a soft and subtle way, but it was still manipulation.
Me 57/H 58 M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13
Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do. I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering. Caroline Myss
Thanks, labug. I bought Codependent No More today after I dropped D7 off at H's apartment. I'm going to start reading it tonight.
I had an awesome day with D7. We celebrated Easter with my sister and her family at a friend's house. It was a little odd for H not to be there, especially since he was the only H who was absent. Still, most of the time, that wasn't on my mind and I was really just enjoying the moment.
Afterwards, I took D7 to H for the night. I ran errands. Then, I did something I had been avoiding. I called my mom and told her about my sitch. When my H and I were separated previously, she was not very supportive. In retrospect, I really think it was out of wanting my pain to stop. What really happened is that I shut her out. She is coming to visit in a few weeks. My sister had offered to call my mom and tell her and also tell her that I didn't want to talk about it, but I decided that the right thing to do was to tell her myself. I'm so glad I did. She is more supportive of me trying to save my M than anyone else I've talked to. She said exactly the right things. She didn't try to bash my H. Rather, she said that she sees it from his side, too. I told her the basics about DBing and she agreed that it is the right approach for me. On a related note, I didn't cry when I told her. That's a first.
H still seems distant. I really want to ask him why, but I'm still resisting the temptation. That might be a record. I'm stubborn, but eventually can be taught.
That's so great that your mom is supportive! Sounds like a good lesson in the danger of mind-reading... we never can know what others are really thinking.
And so great that you can now talk about it without crying. A big milestone for sure. You are detaching! It doesn't mean you don't care, it just means that the feelings don't own you. We are both about 6 months into this adventure... I'm realizing it just takes time.
And congrats on resisting temptation to ask him! Good for you. Must feel good to have gotten past that moment successfully.
Thanks, Claire! I still haven't asked him, even though i really want to. Experience has taught me that would lead to R talk and I definitely don't want to go there right now.
I know it isn't my sandbox and all that, but I really wish my H would learn about validating. I found out yesterday that I did not get a job that I really wanted. H immediately started talking about how I need to look at the positive that I have a job and this gives me more time to find the right job. I recognize that he was likely just trying to make me feel better. I finally said, "I realize that I am very blessed and I am thankful for that, but it is ok for me to take a little time to be upset about this." It ended up not being a good interaction. I didn't give in to the temptation to say something like, "excuse me for suffering from feelings of rejection recently. I can't imagine where those come from."
Again, good for you for holding in those feelings! You don't need his validation right now. But I get it... we would all be so much Better off if we could give them a magic pill that would teach them all we have learned, right?!
Thanks for reading, Claire! I know I don't need his validation. I'm usually pretty at doing it myself, but he caught me at a weak moment and just wouldn't let up. Oh well, it's a new day.
Both yesterday and today he has called me at lunchtime just to chat. This is something he frequently used to do whenever he left the office. Maybe that's a sign that he's coming closer again. He still hasn't started his usual daily commute-home calls back up. It's been about a week since he stopped those. Clearly, I still have expectations.
OK, off to take D7 to swim lessons now. She always has a great time and there are usually a few other moms that I know who are fun to chat with for a bit.
25 posted this in response to something I wrote on Claire's thread, but I wanted to move it here, too.
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Originally Posted By: hope456
I have a similar 180. I always chose/decided everything for our D7 (school, clothing, activities, daycare, outings, etc.) and rarely consulted his opinion.
Please let me use this^^ as a 'teaching point' without feeling as if I am bashing you. But this^^ behavior when it's in a man, is seen as CONTROLLING as heck, and comes off as critical too....b/c the other spouse is clearly not as capable as the one choosing...
so as easy as it is for we women/mothers to "do it all" we have to remind ourselves that it's NOT a quality or attribute to cultivate. It's mainly a flaw we have to work on modifying or eradicating.
When he offered one, it was usually wrong.
and here^^ we have the evidence that it is seen as "WRONG" of them to disagree w/us. Chances are the suggestion or answer is more subjective than "right vs wrong" and that gets hard to admit bc we THINK we have "worked it all out already" and our preferences are the "Right" ones...
but in truth, most of what we choose is not crucial and our spouse's preference is just as good as ours, sometimes it may not be but it's rarely a life and death matter. And if it's not, then why did we insist on having it our way and self righteously demand that it be done our way?
I think it's partly b/c as mothers (esp if we are stay at home mom's) we don't get a lot of positive accolades, and we don't get a "bonus or promotion" for a job well done. We need that...so perhaps we are more insistent than we need be, b/c we need some pats on the back. Too bad we couldn't just tell our h's that!
I think I'm more aware of this now. I've made a point of saying positive things about his parenting with D7. That has an extra benefit, too, as his LL is words of affirmation.
Ah well maybe this^^ is why My DB coach said to "applaud loudly for the 1% of positives they do" and at the time it felt so hard to do, that I had to work hard on it.
In retrospect, I'm embarrassed b/c giving compliments is simply a loving thing to do, and it costs me nothing. You'd never know that however...
Right as she told me that, I heard myself thinking "but if I compliment him for X, then he'll take Y for granted and might treat me worse ....."
It was as if I was risking something by complimenting my h! I was so wrong.
It was really the opposite b/c we risk a lot more by with holding compliments! We empty their love tanks b/c we don't add to it!
My h responds so much more to positives than negatives, I can't believe it took me decades to realize what could and should have been clear to me, much sooner. I get treated much better b/c I compliment him more than before.. Lesson learned.
Does this resonate?
25-Thank you for this response. It is so applicable to my sitch. The first time after BD that I complimented my H's parenting of D7, he looked absolutely shocked. Obviously, I did not do this enough before BD.
I remember my sister observing a few years ago that I had all the child care responsibilities. She said that she would not put up with that from her H. My response was that I really didn't need him involved in most of that stuff, as he probably wouldn't do it right anyway. I'm appalled at my behavior now that I look back.
Since BD, if I go to H's apartment to see D7 when she is there, I always end up checking to make sure her homework is done and to see if there is anything from school that needs to be addressed. The first couple of times my H hadn't signed her reading log or something similar, I was irritated. I thought, "Huh. You want 50/50 custody, but you can't even handle a simple task." Fortunately, I didn't say anything. As I thought more about it, I realized that he doesn't know what needs to be done because I always shut him out of those things.
Through a lot of self-reflection, I've found that I have this same negative behavioral trait at work. I take on more and more responsibility because I'm convinced no one else will do it right...and then become resentful that I'm doing more work than anyone else. It's not an attractive thing at all.
Yes! We're in recovery!! I truly do think I've become a lot more self-aware, so I'm able to catch these tendencies before I act on them. It's a work in progress, of course, but I'm feeling pretty confident about it.
Originally Posted By: labug
I'm going to challenge you a little more to think about what you're teaching your daughter (she's learning a lot right now about being a woman)
You're right. She's learning so much about it right now. She's also VERY much like me (puts a lot pressure on herself, is self-critical, tends toward perfectionism). I actually think these traits are very good in moderation, but I know that I've taken them to extremes. I want to teach her that it's ok to ask for and accept help. As I've thought about what I'm modeling for her during this sitch, the conclusion I've come to is that I want her to see me handle adversity with dignity and grace.
A little about H tonight: He called this evening and told me that he and his dad had gotten into a big argument. They've had a strained relationship for a long time (his dad has essentially left 2 families), but had recently started reconnecting. H didn't want to talk about it in detail, but he was pretty upset. Apparently his dad told him that H was to blame for a lot of the problems they've had in the past (dating back to childhood). I validated and told him I understood that would be hurtful. I may have messed up a little. I said, "That's BS. He was the adult. You were the child. None of that is your fault." I know that I'm not supposed to be offering my opinions; it just infuriates me that his dad does this stuff to him over and over again. It messes with his sense of self-worth. I also know that he thinks I'm too critical of his dad. I really didn't say any more than that. I asked if he wanted to talk about it anymore and let the subject drop when he indicated that he did not. Thoughts, anyone? Did I say too much?
And a little about me: I posted the other day about not getting a job that I really wanted. Well, I got a call today about another job that I applied for and they want to set up an interview ASAP. Then, a former boss sent me a link to a job he thought I'd be interested in and it is a perfect fit for me, so I've applied to that, too. I've got my optimism back with regard to the job search.
Also, I realized today that I'm back in a place where I'm happy much more than I'm sad. Ordinarily, I'm a really happy person, but I struggled a lot after BD. I felt sad almost all the time. I don't feel that way now. I'm not on the verge of tears all the time and I smile and laugh easily. I've always known cognitively that I'd get through this, but I'm beginning to really feel it, too.
He was the adult. You were the child. None of that is your fault."
That's a fact, not an opinion. Don't chastise yourself.
About your daughter, your'e right, most things can be good in moderation. With perfectionism, a little goes a long way because we will never achieve it, so we're constantly judging ourselves as not good enough.
When you feel yourself reverting to those characteristics, can you ask yourself "Would I want my daughter to feel this way?"
Me 57/H 58 M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13
Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do. I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering. Caroline Myss
Awesome day today! My sister and I took our girls to feed the ducks. There were lots of baby ducks, so the kids were really excited. Then, we took them to the library. When D7 and I got home, she wanted to play outside with the other kids, so we did. She played for hours and I chatted with a couple of the other moms in our neighborhood while we watched them. My niece came to the house for a sleepover and she and D7 had a lot of fun. Now I'm going to curl up and read one of the books I checked out from the library.
Oh, H called this morning just to chat. Then, came by in the afternoon to see D7 for a minute. He was going camping tonight with some friends. He seemed less distant. It is probably all in my perception. I was in a great mood, so I wasn't hung up on his every cue.
He seemed less distant. It is probably all in my perception.
As is everything-that's why your mind is such a powerful tool. A person can say the same thing to us on 2 different occasions and how we interpret it is based on our perception.
We can choose.
Anytime.
Me 57/H 58 M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13
Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do. I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering. Caroline Myss
Another good day. D7 and I went to church this morning. My sister and I went shopping this afternoon.
D7 was complaining about a sore throat this evening and wanted chicken noodle soup. I didn't have any in the pantry and she didn't want to go anywhere. I texted H and asked if he would mind picking some up for her. He said he'd be right over. While he was here, I asked him to check the washing machine because it has been malfunctioning today. He couldn't fix it and the clothes in it were wet. I made a joke about him taking them with him, washing them, and bringing them back tomorrow. He said he would H never did laundry, so I'm actually pretty amused by that.
While he was looking at the washer, he said, "We can't afford to buy a new one right now." Funny that he said "we" given that our finances are completely separate.
Don't read too much in to the "we", although I also get a chuckle when my H does it. He was so deliberate for the past year to label everything as "mine" or "his". Maybe (hopefully), it means they are processing things, maybe it's just a slip. It is amusing, though!
Keep up the good work! I like these positive posts!!!
Me: 39 H: 45 Second marriage for both H left 12/2013 M:4 T:5.5
Don't read too much in to the "we", although I also get a chuckle when my H does it. He was so deliberate for the past year to label everything as "mine" or "his". Maybe (hopefully), it means they are processing things, maybe it's just a slip. It is amusing, though!
Keep up the good work! I like these positive posts!!!
Not reading into it. Just amused, mostly
I had to pick D7 up early today because she isn't feeling well and was running a fever, so I'll be staying home with her tomorrow and taking her to the pediatrician. H came by tonight to see her. When he was leaving, he gave me a hug. Then, he stopped and looked back and said, "You look good." I was dressed in yoga pants and a t-shirt, with my hair in a ponytail. LOL. Maybe my PMA was just showing through.
I felt my desire to control creeping in again tonight. H was texting about studying for his finals and asked me for help with an assignment. I read the assignment, but it wasn't something I remembered anything about, especially since it wasn't my favorite class when I took it years ago. I told him that I didn't really remember the specifics of the concepts anymore, so I didn't know how much help I would be. He just said, "Okay." I know you can't tell tone from text, so I know that it was my mind, and not his response, that made me read that as him being mad. So, I sent another message that said, "I feel like you are mad at me now." He said that he wasn't and was just stressed about how much he had to do. I also told him that I felt guilty for not just saying yes. He replied that it really wasn't my responsibility. That's absolutely true. Then, he asked if I could keep D7 on Saturday night (it's his weekend). I immediately thought, I don't want to keep her so that you can go hang out with your friends. I was ok with keeping her if it was because he had to work or study. I almost immediately realized that this was me trying to control. Because of that and because I want as much time with D7 as possible, I just responded and told him that I would keep her without attaching any conditions to it. I did ask him if had to take a test this weekend and he responded that he did, but I asked that question after agreeing to keep D7. Still, I think it would have been better for me not to ask at all.
So, I think it is progress that I recognized that I was trying to control what he was doing and a small victory that I didn't act on that impulse. It would have been better if I hadn't asked him for additional information afterwards. I guess I was trying to allay my fears. Feels like a baby step for me, though.
It just occurred to me today that H never shared anything about his IC appointment that was over a week ago. Normally, he calls me after and tells me generally how it went. I don't ask for the information and he doesn't usually offer specifics of what was discussed. I know that he had the appointment because he told me the day before. I'm really surprised that I didn't notice that he didn't call me or mention anything. I'm even more shocked that I don't really feel bothered now that the thought has occurred to me. Maybe, just maybe, that makes I'm getting closer to being detached.
You did really well recognising that you were beginning to try to control him!! Have you read codependent no more by melodie beattie?
I think detachment takes practise, it did for me anyway and I still struggle sometimes when I'm feeling down, main thing is being aware of how his actions and words affect you so you can work on detaching from that and not letting it impact on you - I've also found it helpful to work out WHY certain things upset me more than others, usually because of my own insecurities and fears.
Your doing great, keep on moving yourself forwards
Divorce Final: Oct 2014
Your struggles today, develop strength for tomorrow...
Have you read codependent no more by melodie beattie?
I bought it a week or so ago and have started it. There is lots of great information in the book.
When I posted last night, I didn't mention a phone conversation that I had with H yesterday. I called him because my neice was very unhappy that a particular set of pajamas was left at my house when she was there this weekend. Those PJ's were in the load of laundry that H took to his apartment. D7 and I were on our way home from dinner and pass right by H's apartment and my sister's subdivision to get there. I called H to see if I could pick them up so I could run by my sister's and then go home. He was really rude when he was on the phone. I was calm, but finally said, "Why are you talking to me like this?" He said that he had read the same sentence multiple times because people kept texting him (I was not one of those people) and that he didn't mean to take it out on me. He didn't actually apologize and he was still pretty rude, but I just dropped it. D7 and I stopped by and he brought the laundry out to me. I didn't say anything else about it.
So, a few minutes ago, H called me to apologize for being an "a$$hole" (his word) last night and to reiterate again that it is his responsibility to get his classwork done and that he shouldn't have asked me, even if we were living together. I thanked him for his apology and let it go. That makes two 180's for me: not pressing the issue last night and not continuing to talk about it or explain my feelings when he apologized today. Maybe H thinks more about how he's acting when I say nothing than when I say something...
Yep if you react badly or confront him then he's got even more of a reason (in his head!!) to be an a$$hole - when you don't react the only person he can blame is himself!! Nice work
Divorce Final: Oct 2014
Your struggles today, develop strength for tomorrow...
My mind is in a bunch of different places tonight...
H has changed the schedule for this weekend three times now. First he asked me to take Saturday night. Then, he called and asked if he could drop D7 off with me on Saturday at noon. Then, he called and asked if I could just take Friday night, too. I'm glad to have D7, but pretty annoyed with my H for not planning better.
I'm not really sure how to describe H's demeanor lately. He calls me regularly. He tells me amusing stories when he sees me. He even emailed me the other day with a random joke. Sending the joke felt particularly positive because it was one of the things H used to do a lot to brighten my day, but he had backed off from that over the past 12-18 months. He isn't being flirty or affectionate, though. There were a couple of weeks where he was really flirty and affectionate, and then we ML twice, and now--nothing. I'd be lying if I said it wasn't hurtful.
Today was a great opportunity for GAL. My company hosts a customer event every spring. I attend to help out and just to interact with our customers. It's a fun event and I really didn't think about my H or my sitch much at all today.
Overall (other than while busy at the even today), I feel like sadness is starting to show up a bit more for me again. I'm not back to being a sobbing mess and I'm still feeling pretty strong, but I'm really feeling sad again.
Thanks, labug. I am getting that it is ok to feel sad, but I'm still trying to make note of when I feel really sad, mostly because that has been leading to anger for me...which has then led to me applying pressure to my H. Which brings me to today. I had a huge backslide. I'm actually pretty embarrassed. I know better than this.
The apartment that my H moved into is located right across the street from my sister's subdivision, so she drives by it all the time. She was at my house this morning and mentioned that H's car wasn't there at 6:30 last night. I was keeping D7 on his weekend (again) so that he could study and then take a test for his online class. He was supposed to be at my house before lunchtime today to pick up D7. I sent a text at 11 am and got no response. After my sister made this comment, I left to go to the store, which also requires me to drive by H's apartment. His car wasn't there (at least where I could see it). I called him and he didn't answer. I called him again and he still didn't answer, but sent a text message about 30 seconds later telling me he was just waking up and would be at the house in about an hour. By this point, I was really suspicious about what was going on. He has insisted repeatedly that there is no one else and I haven't seen anything suggesting that there is, but I often wonder, particularly when he stops being flirty/affectionate with me.
So, H finally gets here and is exhausted, supposedly from being up until 2:30 am working on school work. He fell asleep on my couch while D7 was eating lunch. I finally woke him up because we were supposed to be taking D7 shopping for shoes. He was in a terrible mood. He asked me to drive. While in my car, he commented that the A/C was going out. I said that I knew but couldn't afford to get it fixed right now. Then, he said I just needed to buy a new car. I replied that I couldn't afford that right now either. He was really rude and said, "I just won't talk anymore."
So, we got to the shoe store and H was short with both me and D7. He sat down on one of the benches and just had a generally bad disposition. Still, I didn't say anything. On the way back to my house, we were both completely silent. Admittedly, I didn't have a good PMA; I was fighting back tears the whole time. As soon as we got back to the house, he told D7 it was time to go. She gave me a hug and then went to his car. When I got inside the house, I immediately started crying. Then, I realized that D7 needed her backpack and medicine. I wiped my eyes and took them outside to give them to H. He could tell that I had been crying. He said, seemingly annoyed, "Why are you crying?" I said, "it doesn't matter." He mumbled something under his breath and then told me D7 was crying, too.
I then sent to the following text:
There are so many reasons why I'm crying, so I'll just share a few:
I got to hear D7 try to explain twice yesterday why her daddy moved out and it is heartbreaking for her to have to navigate that.
I got my head bitten off because I was honest enough to say I can't afford to get my air conditioner fixed or buy a new car. I'm not sure why that deserved a rude comment.
I don't like having to say goodbye to D7. It isn't right.
I wish you'd have told me you weren't going to make it last night instead of waiting until almost 9 pm.
Mostly, I'm afraid to talk to you about any of this because you don't feel like it, are too exhausted, have too much on your mind, are too busy, or will just tell me again that you want a divorce.
Oh, and it's that time of the month.
And it just felt like two strangers sitting in the car because you are so far away from me.
He responded 15 minutes later:
Sorry was just a little tired. I don't like that D7 has to try to explain that either. Sorry about your car. I understand the frustration. And sorry about last night, I was working on school stuff and lost track of time, then realized my phone was dead.
To put the last night thing in context, H was supposed to come tuck D7 into bed at 8 pm as usual. He didn't show up. I texted him at 8:30 and asked if he was alive. He responded twenty minutes later that his phone was dead and to tell D7 he'd see her today. She didn't even notice last night because she was outside late playing with her friends, but that really isn't the point because he didn't know that. It's really frustrating that his only priority in life right now is himself.
I've had a headache for three days and I'm hormonal, but that just feels like me making excuses for doing something I know I shouldn't have done. I haven't responded to H's text from 20 minutes ago, which is different for me. Normally, I can keep these text arguments going for hours. I'm just so tired of not knowing what's going on. I do not want a D, but some days I think that would be so much easier than trying to make things work. I'm tired and lonely and sad. And I deserve so much better than what he has to offer right now.
I don't feel like being hormonal is just an excuse. It's real. It has the same affect on me.. and it's beyond your control, sadly. The only good thing about it is you can know when it's coming and perhaps learn to pull back during that time.
I don't think that is a "huge backslide". You are human. You told H how you are feeling and he responded. Forgive yourself for what you feel your faults are today and move forward on your path. you are doing the best you ca. keep your head up
me: 47, W:49 M 16.5 years T 17 years Three kids - D17,D14, S13 Heart 2 heart about M 11/8/13 Bomb drop 11/29/13 W moved out 12/5/13 I Retained L 2/20/14 D filed 3/17/14
Thanks, vossy and paul! H has acted completely normal (or as normal as he acts now) in all of our interactions since then and I haven't mentioned anything, so I think it wasn't as big a backslide as I thought.
I need some advice:
D7 hasn't been talking much about the sitch at all and seems mostly unaffected. I don't actually believe that she's unaffected, but she has seemed to adjust far better than I thought. So, tonight at bedtime, she said, "I wish Daddy would come back to our house." She went on to tell me that she's tired of switching back and forth from Mommy to Daddy and it is confusing for her. I validated everything she said and listened for as long as she wanted to talk about it. At one point, she said that she wishes she could spend a month with one of us and then a month with the other. That obviously wouldn't be good for her, but it does make me wonder if there is a better schedule. Right now, we have a 2-2-5 arrangement. I have her on Mondays and Tuesdays. H has her on Wednesdays and Thursdays. We alternate Friday-Saturday-Sunday. I really don't like the idea of a week-on/week-off schedule, but wonder if that may actually be better for her. D7 also said that it would be easier if it was the end of the 4 months and Daddy would just come home. I asked her why she said 4 months and she said that is what Daddy said. H and I never discussed a specific time period; his lease is for one year. We had a conversation about summer camp earlier today and it was clear from the conversation that he still anticipated separate finances over the summer. He's been gone for four months now. I'm really unsure where that timeframe came from.
I think this is something I need to talk to H about. I think we should definitely discuss the schedule. I'm not sure how much of D7's conversation to tell him about. Do I tell him that she mentioned that she wants him to come home? What about the idea of 4 months? I think he should know what she's saying, but I don't want him to think I'm trying to make him feel guilty (which has been a complaint of his). Thoughts, anyone?
H told me a couple of hours ago that he definitely wants a divorce and is filing as soon as he has the money. He thinks it will be easier to be friends now that he has decided. He needs to do this so the healing can begin. Oh, and he hasn't closed the door on us years down the road, but he has for now.
Well, there is a shining light in that sentence: "When he has the money." That does mean you still have time to turn things around. Also, the sentence about he hasn't closed the door. That does suggest he's not as sure as he thinks he is.
hope, I'm sorry. It does s*ck. But, does it really change anything you've been doing? It shouldn't, if you've been acting "as if" you're moving on without him anyway this whole time. You don't have to make any decisions you don't want to make. You don't have to be the one to file. You don't have to be his friend if you don't want to. Reading your earlier posts, it seems like he fluctuated between wanting a D, and then "giving it some thought." So who knows what he'll say tomorrow, or in a week, or in a month? You can still have hope, but maybe set it aside like a shoebox in a closet for now. You recognize it's there, but it's not constantly present.
Me:30 H:29, no kids T:12, M:4 (when D was final) 12/13: "Don't think I want to be M anymore" 6/14: Separated (I move) 1/15: H filed for D 5/15: D final
Thanks for the support, Jenn. I work with a very good friend, so she and I left the office for a couple of hours today and got fries and chocolate milkshakes...total stress-relieving food that I never allow myself! I made plans for tomorrow night, too.
Well, there is a shining light in that sentence: "When he has the money." That does mean you still have time to turn things around. Also, the sentence about he hasn't closed the door. That does suggest he's not as sure as he thinks he is.
Thanks, vossy. He was very specific about the door closing. He said he is closing it for now, but not forever. The time frame that he always mentions is 5 years. He told me that there is no way he will change his mind now because he can't force himself to be "in love" with me and he knows himself and it isn't going to happen. I'm trying not to give up hope, but I'm feeling very hopeless right now.
hope, I'm sorry. It does s*ck. But, does it really change anything you've been doing? It shouldn't, if you've been acting "as if" you're moving on without him anyway this whole time. You don't have to make any decisions you don't want to make. You don't have to be the one to file. You don't have to be his friend if you don't want to. Reading your earlier posts, it seems like he fluctuated between wanting a D, and then "giving it some thought." So who knows what he'll say tomorrow, or in a week, or in a month? You can still have hope, but maybe set it aside like a shoebox in a closet for now. You recognize it's there, but it's not constantly present.
You're right, he's all over the map. He was really hopeful about us right before he moved out, but that was when we were spending lots of low-pressure time together just kind of hanging out. That all stopped when he moved out. He doesn't seem any happier now that he's moved out. I have a theory that he thinks since moving out didn't make him happy, he must need the D, and THEN he'll be happy. I still don't think he's figured out that happiness comes from inside. He's looking for some external circumstance/event/person/thing.
WRT acting "as if," I hadn't been doing a good job of that until about a month ago. It was like I just figured it out one day and started doing it. However, I didn't act "as if" at all today. I didn't do a good job validating.
I don't want him to not be in my life, but I really don't want to settle for a friendship, either. I feel like I would only be using a friendship as a means to an end. I also think any semblance of friendship would be out the window as soon as he started sleeping with someone else. I said as much to him today in a much cruder way today.
I'm just not sure how to act like all I want is friendship. It's not. It feels like settling for crumbs. I like being married. I like having a partner, someone to decompress with at the end of the day. I want to be M to my H, but I don't want to be sitting around waiting for him to figure his sh!t out according to his hypothetical five-year timeline.
I feel like I'm rambling and not making a whole lot of sense today. I'm so worried about my D7. I just heard her tell a friend this weekend that her parents were getting a D.
You sound very similar to me, in terms of your thought process. It's really tough and I have had to make the decision to take things one day at a time. Stressing out about my "next move" and everything just would cause me to break down. Now I try to make sure I am keeping things moving forward at all times, and to treat myself. For instance, if I have a bad day where things don't go as well as I'd hoped in terms of the ex, I find a great movie to watch, or buy myself an unhealthy snack (just like you did) and just make sure that at least *I* am treating myself the right way.
To be quite honest, and I hope you don't take offence to this, but your husband can say he "knows himself" all he wants, but it doesn't sound like he does, given he frequently changes his mind. It just sounds to me like he wants some freedom and independence, all the usual things. It seems to *me* that you are in the perfect position in terms of DB/DR. He seems somewhat sure that in five years, you'll still be in this frame of mind of wanting him back. I wonder what would happen if he could see you "moving on" with life.. even if you're not.. and he could mentally fast forward to 5 years from now. It might scare him.
P.S. Have you ever heard of Leslie Cane? I think you'd find her blog useful.
No offense taken. My H is remarkably un-self aware. I think he's looking for this elusive thing called happiness that he believes you can find and possess.
He did say that if he changes his mind in five years and feels some spark--and I'm not available, then that's his loss. So he has some recognition that the possibility exists that I won't be waiting around. Of course, he also said today that he doesn't want me to sleep with anyone else and that would make him jealous (even a couple years down the line). He literally sometimes contradicts himself from sentence to sentence. It's pretty frustrating. That isn't new behavior, so you'd think I'd be accustomed to it by now.
A friend suggested today that it might be best for me to let the D happen as fast as possible. She thinks when he sees that he's still not just magically happy all of a sudden that he might look back. She also suggested that he might feel that this (a D) is the only thing he has control of that I can't change. So, if I just let it happen, it allows him to feel in control.
I check Leslie Cane's blog every few days and read her posts. I have found it useful and have found that a lot of it lines up with DB.
Your H sounds a LOT like my ex, especially WRT happiness. That has been a key phrase I have heard way too much of.. "I am just trying to be happy," "I just am trying to get my happiness back.." etc.
I read an article the other day that was a little enlightening. Apparently a "study" has found that many Americans, men in particular, feel that happiness is the most important thing, but in actuality, people who search for a "meaningful" life and not a "happy" one are often more satisfied. They used parents as an example. Some parents might not be able to say they are "happy" because parenting is hard, but they do feel that their life means something, because they have a child/children. It is just something to think about, I guess.
I definitely get the impression that your H wants to have his cake and eat it too, a little bit. He sounds very confused, but I feel there are glimmers of hope in there still. It just seems like he's not ready to "come around" just yet.
The one complaint I always had was his words and actions were often not 100% in alignment. He would say I'm the most important thing is his world, but when it was a choice between my needs or something his family needed I was left alone at important times.
When my nan passed, the day after the funeral, before I was even more than half awake, he commented in a huff to me still in bed at 7.30am, "I'm not wasting my expensive holiday laying around a hotel room" stalking off. As the funeral was in another country.
Later he came back, son and me ready to leave, he wondered why I was unhappy. one of my closest relatives was buried yesterday and sight seeing is more important to you than just letting me be, your actions showed me how lowly he thought of me. It's normal to be unhappy and grieve after a major loss. His focus was happiness! Wrong setting wrong emotion. Mlc fun I now know.
M 46 h54 Both married before T 11y Bd 2/14 I must see where ow leads! Ms 18 hs 26
Sounds familiar. My ex probably shouldn't be having his MLC just yet (he's only 36) but that seems to be what it's all about. Say one thing, do another. Move across the world for me, leave 4 days later saying "I tried." Oh, the things we hear...!
I'm really stuck on thinking the getting D is a huge failure. I feel as though I failed as a wife AND as a parent. I really, really don't know how to deal with failure. I don't allow myself to fail. I keep going until I succeed with whatever my goal was.
My D7 will now be going through the same thing I did as a seven-year-old when my parents split up. H says he realizes the effect this will have on her and he's sorry that she will be "collateral damage." I wanted to reach through the phone and punch him in the face.
Hope, everybody fails in life. It's unrealistic to expect perfection. This is not a failure- it's a redirection. I'm not trying to trivialize it- I feel shame, too. But sometimes failure is the only way to learn and change. It doesn't make things easier, but it could make things better. Think of it that way- it ain't over yet!!!
Hang in there.
Me: 39 H: 45 Second marriage for both H left 12/2013 M:4 T:5.5
I don't know how to be hopeful about this anymore. I don't feel like there is any left. If he's resolved in his head that things can't change because he's not "in love" (WTF does that even mean???), I'm not sure how I can hope. He has a mental block that isn't going to allow change. And he's perfectly fine with our family being collateral damage.
Truly, I don't understand what the next steps are. I hear you all saying DB is for me, but that isn't all it is. We all read the book and then came here to save our M's. I hear you all saying stay in your sandbox, but that isn't always what MWD says. She says to experiment and monitor results. I have to look at his sandbox to see if what I'm doing is working. By the way, I was experimenting and monitoring results and it seemed to be working. And now my H wants a D anyway. I don't want to move on. I don't want to make myself great for a future relationship. I want to be M to the man I already chose and with whom I chose to have a beatiful child. I don't want to give up on my M, but I don't know how to go about getting him to stop a D now either.
I don't want to move on. I don't want to make myself great for a future relationship.
Were you 100% happy in your marriage? Were you happy with yourself? Would you be happy to go back to how it was just before BD and live like that for the rest of you life?
Divorce Final: Oct 2014
Your struggles today, develop strength for tomorrow...
I don't want to move on. I don't want to make myself great for a future relationship. I want to be M to the man I already chose and with whom I chose to have a beatiful child. I don't want to give up on my M, but I don't know how to go about getting him to stop a D now either.
We all get stuck in this place at some point. We refuse to move forward or even backward.
You'll be there as long as you need to be there and then something will click and you'll make some sort of move.
The first step is letting go.
Your life is changing whether you want it to or not and you have no control of that. Never did, really.
You do have control of you and at some point hopefully you'll seize that.
Me 57/H 58 M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13
Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do. I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering. Caroline Myss
I labug is right ^^^^. I think we all know how you feel at one point or another Hope, but there isn't a silver bullet. You do the best you can with the GAL, 180's, and being the best you can be but in the end that other person still has to make that decision or they don't. That's why everyone concentrates so hard on the changes being for you. If all of your change is for them and they leave anyways, where does leave us?
M: 43 W: 43 Married 6 yrs. T: 7 yrs. Son 20, 18, 17, 15 yrs. (w/ Autism), 12, 10
I guess the thing to remember is that it *was* working, so even though it feels like two steps forward, one step back, you should keep trying. Just reset and start again. In terms of being "in love" and so on, my mother had an affair when I was about 6-7. She fell in love with the other man and it continued long after she told my dad. My dad made the decision to wait, despite her telling him she was not in love with him anymore. Long story short, the affair ended, she came home, and they are quite the happy couple these days.. after 32 years of marriage. It's not impossible.
Re: feeling like a failure - yep, been there not too long ago. I always succeeded at everything (high school valedictorian! 1st chair flautist! 4.0 student! Accepted to the only grad school I applied to! and so on and so on) so it was hard for me to face a situation where I couldn't make it happen how I wanted to happen. What helped for me? -recognizing that this is not all on us. We didn't make this happen. Did we contribute? Yes. But that doesn't mean we "failed." Our H's contributed to this as well, and were the ones that ultimately walked away. I don't want to blame our H's for everything but we also aren't failures in this. Some things are just out of our hands no matter how "perfect" we may try to be from here on forward. We can influence but we can't make them change their minds. -The book "The Happiness Trap" has a lot of great techniques for helping with negative thoughts like these, and accepting that they are just words or stories - they aren't necessarily reality or true. One example is to distance yourself from the thought - when you find yourself thinking "I'm a failure!" then think "I'm noticing I'm having the thought that I'm a failure." Say them both outloud to yourself - doesn't the 2nd option feel less stressful? Another example is to put the thought to the tune of a song and "sing" it to yourself. These things all help you "defuse" the thought so that you don't take it so seriously and recognize it for what it is - just a thought or words.
-Re: only wanting to be friends up until H dates someone else - I feel the same way. I realized that the reason I had this "condition" on the friendship was because I only wanted to be friends with H if there was still a chance we'd get back together, and in my mind, if he started dating, we wouldn't get back together, so what's the point? I came to the conclusion that if I was only going to be friends under the premise that we might get back together, then that wasn't the right friendship for me, at least at this point in time. Maybe later things might change, but at this point (and this is what I told my H when he still wanted to be friends/still thought I was his best friend) it's not what I want for my life.
Me:30 H:29, no kids T:12, M:4 (when D was final) 12/13: "Don't think I want to be M anymore" 6/14: Separated (I move) 1/15: H filed for D 5/15: D final
I don't want to move on. I don't want to make myself great for a future relationship.
Were you 100% happy in your marriage? Were you happy with yourself? Would you be happy to go back to how it was just before BD and live like that for the rest of you life?
I don't think anyone is ever 100% happy. I'm not sure that is attainable. Were there things about my marriage that I would change? Absolutely. I have worked on changing those things that are within my control. I will continue to work on the things that are in my control. I just have zero interest in doing that to have a relationship with someone, someday. I want a relationship with my H. I fully believe that working on making our M the best it could be would be the best thing for all three of us.
I don't want to move on. I don't want to make myself great for a future relationship. I want to be M to the man I already chose and with whom I chose to have a beatiful child. I don't want to give up on my M, but I don't know how to go about getting him to stop a D now either.
We all get stuck in this place at some point. We refuse to move forward or even backward.
You'll be there as long as you need to be there and then something will click and you'll make some sort of move.
The first step is letting go.
Your life is changing whether you want it to or not and you have no control of that. Never did, really.
You do have control of you and at some point hopefully you'll seize that.
I really don't think of myself as a dense person, but I'm not getting all of this. I understand that I can only control me. I don't like it, but I get it. I just don't see that I'm supposed to let go of everything and not plan and make goals and try to achieve them because whatever happens is supposed to happen. I'm a believer in making things happen. I went to school and established a career and bought a house because I planned and worked for those things. I didn't just wait for things to come to me. I want to make the steps necessary to save my M. I'm trying to figure out what those steps are. I don't mean to sound like it is a tactic. It isn't. I understand where I need to change and am doing so, not just with my H, but with my D7 and at work and with my friends. I have worked hard on letting go of things like judgment. I think all of that is good for me and I wouldn't "unmake" those changes, but my goal here is still to save my M.
I guess the thing to remember is that it *was* working, so even though it feels like two steps forward, one step back, you should keep trying. Just reset and start again. In terms of being "in love" and so on, my mother had an affair when I was about 6-7. She fell in love with the other man and it continued long after she told my dad. My dad made the decision to wait, despite her telling him she was not in love with him anymore. Long story short, the affair ended, she came home, and they are quite the happy couple these days.. after 32 years of marriage. It's not impossible.
This makes a lot of sense to me. I do think things were working. He was responding differently. He was responding differently back in December before he moved out. We were spending lots of time together then. Unprompted, he told me then that he felt hopeful and like he was making the wrong decision, but he still needed to move out just to be sure. I validated that (the still moving out) and told him I understood and did it all exactly as I've seen advised here repeatedly. Now, he's rewritten that and says we were just beginning a good friendship. However, the rewriting has come after 4 months of living apart, spending little time together, and me having emotional meltdowns every month or so. I think (maybe) I understand. Some of my changes haven't been consistent enough for him to really believe yet. Maybe what I need to do is forgive myself for my reaction yesterday and go back to acting like I was three days ago. I was not applying any pressure. I was giving lots of space. H says that it will be easier to be around me and hang out as friends now that he's said he definitely wants a D. Maybe I experiment with that some. If I was getting a good result previously (in December), maybe it will start to work again.
Does that make sense? Or is it just a lot of rambling?
Re: feeling like a failure - yep, been there not too long ago. I always succeeded at everything (high school valedictorian! 1st chair flautist! 4.0 student! Accepted to the only grad school I applied to! and so on and so on) so it was hard for me to face a situation where I couldn't make it happen how I wanted to happen. What helped for me? -recognizing that this is not all on us. We didn't make this happen. Did we contribute? Yes. But that doesn't mean we "failed." Our H's contributed to this as well, and were the ones that ultimately walked away. I don't want to blame our H's for everything but we also aren't failures in this. Some things are just out of our hands no matter how "perfect" we may try to be from here on forward. We can influence but we can't make them change their minds. -The book "The Happiness Trap" has a lot of great techniques for helping with negative thoughts like these, and accepting that they are just words or stories - they aren't necessarily reality or true. One example is to distance yourself from the thought - when you find yourself thinking "I'm a failure!" then think "I'm noticing I'm having the thought that I'm a failure." Say them both outloud to yourself - doesn't the 2nd option feel less stressful? Another example is to put the thought to the tune of a song and "sing" it to yourself. These things all help you "defuse" the thought so that you don't take it so seriously and recognize it for what it is - just a thought or words.
-Re: only wanting to be friends up until H dates someone else - I feel the same way. I realized that the reason I had this "condition" on the friendship was because I only wanted to be friends with H if there was still a chance we'd get back together, and in my mind, if he started dating, we wouldn't get back together, so what's the point? I came to the conclusion that if I was only going to be friends under the premise that we might get back together, then that wasn't the right friendship for me, at least at this point in time. Maybe later things might change, but at this point (and this is what I told my H when he still wanted to be friends/still thought I was his best friend) it's not what I want for my life.
Hey, I'm a fellow high school valedictorian! According to my parents, I have always, since toddlerhood, done what was expected of me. That continued throughout school, college, and into my career. I have very high expectations of myself. It is very hard for me to accept that I have failed at something that is so important to me.
Thank you for recommending The Happiness Trap. I am adding it to my reading list. I put Codependent No More on hold for a bit because I've decided I need to do some reading for pleasure. Reading is my surefire escape and I think I need it right now.
WRT being friends...I'm very torn about this. My H is my best friend. I truly do think he feels the same way. He is the first person I want to call when I hear an amusing story or an amusing joke, have a good day at work, have a bad day at work, need a good laugh, etc. He does the same thing. Yesterday he tells me he wants a D. This morning, he emails me about something funny that happened at his office. I can't imagine not having him in my life in some capacity. In addition to that, I think that having a friendship with my H helps to keep some connection alive. However, the thought of him being physically intimate with someone else is something I'm not sure I can handle. He has mentioned that it bothers him that my mind always goes there (him sleeping with someone else). He claims to have no interest in that. Maybe because my LL is physical touch, it's that thought that bothers me most. He would be giving what I desire so much to someone else. I'm really not sure what to do about the friendship thing. He emailed me today asking if I wanted to come over and catch up on a show we used to watch together. He wants us to do that next week because he's finishing up his classwork this week. I guess it is something I could try. If it is too hard for me, I can always stop it later.
Labug, artsy, Upwards, Bunches, vossy, KGirl - Thank you all so much for bearing with me during my craziness. I really do appreciate your support and advice. In reading my own posts, I feel like I sound very irrational, which is typically not me at all. I am reading what you are saying and trying to take it all in.
My head is still absolutely spinning. To give you a sampling of the kinds of thoughts I'm having today:
-How am I going to afford to send D7 to college? -How am I going to find someone else to date someday? -Should I keep my married name or go back to my maiden name? -How am I going to tell D7 that her parents are getting a divorce? -How am I ever going to be vulnerable with someone again the way that I've been vulnerable with my H? -Am I going to end up being a pathetic person that sits around waiting for my H for five years (his hypothetical timeline)? I really, really hope not. -Should I tell H that he can no longer store his motorcycle in the garage of my house?
As I think you would all advise me, I'm going to try to slow down and take one day at a time. Heck, it might be one hour at a time right now.
So, here are some things I've decided to do in the next week or so:
-Read the 5LL. I know my H's love language and I've been doing my best to use it. I want to actually read the book to get some additional ideas. Even if we're just friends for now, I think it will help if my goal is R and if he hasn't closed the door on us being together again someday. -I'm ordering furniture for our family room. We have two living areas in our house. H took the furniture from the family room when he moved out. I've resisted filling the room because I was so hopeful that he would be back and it would be an unnecessary expense. I need my house to feel homey and complete again and the empty room (first one on the left when you walk in the front door) really bothers me. -Journaling like crazy to get my thoughts out without expressing them all to my H. -Call a DB coach. -Running on the nights when I don't have D7. I find that running outside really helps me clear my mind. It's a habit I've gotten out of, but I'm determined to bring it back up. -Schedule a time to talk to H about the custody arrangements with D7. She has expressed confusion over them and I think he and I need to have a conversation about it. I want to wait a few days as I'm still working through all the emotions from yesterday and I don't want the conversation to be emotionally-charged.
I have some specific questions, that I'd like to get input on. I'll take input on anything I've said above as well. Really, feel free to tell me that I'm being irrational or overcomplicating or whatever. I'm trying to learn as much as I can.
*25yearsmlc (or anyone, really) - Do you think it is a bad idea for me to ask my H if he would consider Retrovaille? There is a session in my city next month. I had already requested all the information. I felt like things were getting better with H and I was saving the idea for when I felt like he was closer to thinking there was hope for us. *In my state, there is only a 60-day waiting period between filing for D and when it could be finalized. So, if H files soon, there really isn't much time. My parents got D when I was 7. It really bothers me that the same thing is going to happen to my D7. I am considering asking H to wait to finalize until after she turns 8. I just can't shake the idea that history is repeating itself. I realize that a few months probably won't make much of a difference in how my D7 handles things. Still, it would really mean a lot to me if my H could respect that request for me. Am I being crazy if I ask for that?
Just to share a little more...I bought a new car tonight. My H has handled car negotiations for us for a long time. This time was no different. He asked me what makes/models I was interested in. He negotiated with the dealership and got my payment to be very close to what it was already. He called me and asked what color I wanted. All I had to do was show up, sign the paperwork, and accept delivery. Despite the conversation from yesterday, we financed the car together. He didn't suggest that we do anything differently. He also mentioned several times how he thought this was a great deal "for us." Maybe it's just habit for him to say that. Maybe he financed with me because he feels guilty. Who knows?
Saw H this morning. He dropped by the house to drop something off. It is the first time he hasn't hugged me when he was leaving. It just doesn't feel right.
H called me after his therapy appointment to tell me a funny story. He called back a few minutes later to tell me that he wanted me to know that he is saying he hasn't closed the door because he still thinks there may be another time for us and he doesn't know what will happen in the future. He says he isn't just saying it because he thinks it is what i want to hear. I'm not sure whether to believe him or not. He said he doesn't know when or if there will be a right time. He doesn't want me to put my life on hold and wait for him because that isn't fair to me. I don't want to give up hope yet, I'm feeling pretty hopeless right now.
And I don't know if I should accept his invitation to hang out next week.
Hope you will stay in this cycle until your ready (mentally & emotionally) & strong enough to move forwards, by "holding on" to your marriage (we all did it, its perfectly natural and part of the process) you are keeping yourself stuck - I know its not what you want, many of us felt the same, but I stand by the saying "you have to be willing to loose you marriage in order to save it".
You have to let go of your H and your M and travel this journey because YOU want to be the best you can, not for your H but for yourself regardless of the outcome. 2 broken people cant make a marriage a success so its your job to get yourself into a really good place for if you get that opportunity in the future, does that make any sense?
Divorce Final: Oct 2014
Your struggles today, develop strength for tomorrow...
I straight up asked my H about Retrouvaille. I convinced him to go, but we got there and he said he "knew everything they said already." Even though he admitted some pretty deep things there.
We slipped back into status quo. He refused to go to POST sessions. I'd love to go again and have him participate, but he's not at the point where he can yet. He doesn't even see his contributions to the downfall of the marriage.
If he's even slightly receptive to any counseling, you might bring it up. Mine had already filed for divorce, and I figured I didn't have anything to lose.
Me- 29 H - 36 T - 5y M - 2y D - 11 months BD#1 June 2013 BD#2 H files 10/28/13 Retrouvaille Nov 13 BD #3 H Files 2nd time 4/22/14 Fires L 7 days later. No court dates set Supposedly he's moving out?
I guess the thing to remember is that it *was* working, so even though it feels like two steps forward, one step back, you should keep trying. Just reset and start again. In terms of being "in love" and so on, my mother had an affair when I was about 6-7. She fell in love with the other man and it continued long after she told my dad. My dad made the decision to wait, despite her telling him she was not in love with him anymore. Long story short, the affair ended, she came home, and they are quite the happy couple these days.. after 32 years of marriage. It's not impossible.
This makes a lot of sense to me. I do think things were working. He was responding differently. He was responding differently back in December before he moved out. We were spending lots of time together then. Unprompted, he told me then that he felt hopeful and like he was making the wrong decision, but he still needed to move out just to be sure. I validated that (the still moving out) and told him I understood and did it all exactly as I've seen advised here repeatedly. Now, he's rewritten that and says we were just beginning a good friendship. However, the rewriting has come after 4 months of living apart, spending little time together, and me having emotional meltdowns every month or so. I think (maybe) I understand. Some of my changes haven't been consistent enough for him to really believe yet. Maybe what I need to do is forgive myself for my reaction yesterday and go back to acting like I was three days ago. I was not applying any pressure. I was giving lots of space. H says that it will be easier to be around me and hang out as friends now that he's said he definitely wants a D. Maybe I experiment with that some. If I was getting a good result previously (in December), maybe it will start to work again.
Does that make sense? Or is it just a lot of rambling?
Totally makes sense - this is exactly what I meant. I think you do need to forgive yourself for those little moments where you forget everything.. it's natural, it can't be helped. But don't let it take you off course. You still have time to work on things and perhaps get things back on track before the D comes around. Sure, you might not get him to come home immediately, but even if you can just postpone the filing of the D (subtly, of course) then you an buy yourself some time.
As for working on things, I am in agreement with your comments about that. You need to work on them for *you* more than for anybody else, but if that also has the side bonus of making your husband see that you can change, then that is even better. You have the same attitude as me about the whole thing.. I feel like you could be me! Haha. I also have full faith that your relationship can be turned around.. so keep trying.
For now, I'm being brief b/c I have not read thru the whole thread...
Originally Posted By: hope456
No offense taken. My H is remarkably un-self aware. I think he's looking for this elusive thing called happiness that he believes you can find and possess. THIS^^ is so common in our society, it ought to be labelled an epidemic.
He did say that if he changes his mind in five years and feels some spark--and I'm not available, then that's his loss. So he has some recognition that the possibility exists that I won't be waiting around. He needs to realize this^^ way more, and he won't by you telling him in words...right now he's merely hypothecating. And btw, my h said the same thing to me. Only when he suspected that I was dating, did he realize he might actually lose me AND "our family"....
WASs seem to be a lot more attentive when some other OP notices their LBS. It may seem like high school (a lot of this does) but it's really common. If it were not so unfair to OPs, I'd suggest renting dates now and then, just to let the reality of another man helping you raise your d, and being in the "family home" and yes, sleeping with you (and you LIKING it a lot), hitting them with truth. Some mystery and the REAL CHANCE of you being with OM needs to air itself out there...not with words but with silence, mystery, GAL activities and vague answers. When he saw the FB picture with other men in it, he commented b/c he's probing. He wants to know the "family fix" he needs every so often will still be there. And he wants to make sure he does not FEEL like he's being the way his dad was.
But I see this SO MUCH I'm wondering if it's genetic or some weird acting out, but it ends up hurting the ones you love the most, or should. MEANING, a lot of men here walk out on their families, but they come from that same background and resent their own dads for doing what they are NOW choosing...I think your h is about the 10th man I've read about, who comes from that background and "vowed" never to do that to HIS kids...and then does it. And regrets it, even while doing it. I believe guilt converts into anger/blame at the source of the guilt, which will usually be the LBS.
So I always tell LBSers NOT to "Try and guilt the WAS" b/c it never ever results in a lasting reconciliation. Shame is not a motivator for genuine lasting change. MY DB coach said something along the lines of "while it's rare that an LBSer admits to wanting to guilt their spouse, all the questions that start with "how can you do..." OR "why did you..." are designed to make the recipient feel defensive.
Those ("Why?" and "HOW CAN YOU...?" are the types of questions to be avoided..." and I think that is a great insight of hers. Keep it in mind, b/c the guilt that you participate in (not that he feels on his own, at night when he used to tuck her in, or knows he missed out on something, etc) is guilt that will backfire on you. The other things, the consequences that LIFE gives him, are his to handle, not yours.
I assume since you met while you were a freshman in college, your h does not have a lot of experience seeing you with OMs. I cannot see how it would hurt the situation, but I'll finish reading your thread... And It helps to know there are good men out there. THIS site has proved that, as well.
Of course, he also said today that he doesn't want me to sleep with anyone else and that would make him jealous (even a couple years down the line). He literally sometimes contradicts himself from sentence to sentence. It's pretty frustrating. That isn't new behavior, so you'd think I'd be accustomed to it by now. 3 things to do/think when he talks about the future or your M or R...(which you do Not bring up unless it's b/c you are filing and letting him know...)
1) pay NO attention to spew or his "thinking out loud;" just don't --- UNLESS
2) you can listen for clues or "intel" about what was missing/"wrong" in the marriage, that you can control or change, AND which you would like change...so you can become a woman only a fool would leave...
IF you act like you are on a recon assignment, gathering "intel", instead of getting defensive or fearful, you LISTEN for useful info for later analysis. If it's not useful or it's too hurtful, you STOP letting it in.
3) IF HE brings up a painful piece of the past, AND IF there was something you did that hurt him, you can say "H, I'm sorry I hurt you. IF I had it all over to do again, there are lots of things I'd do differently."
IF HE brings up something from the past that is not true or you do not recall it that way (and trust me, our memories get foggy too, so don't call him a "liar" like THIS woman almost said to her h...but before I could blurt out something in anger (brilliantly), my oldest d mentioned that it was true! So I really had not recalled it that way at all!)
You can say "Wow, that's not how I recall 'X' at all, but I'm sorry you were hurt, (and then repeat the second clause) "and if I had it all to do over again, I'd do a lot of things differently."
Those^^ responses show YOUR ability/desire to change, your genuine regret about pain you caused, and neither response is overly defensive on your end. They don't escalate matters, but nor are you kissing up for something you don't even recall, so you're not being a doormat.
A friend suggested today that it might be best for me to let the D happen as fast as possible. She thinks when he sees that he's still not just magically happy all of a sudden that he might look back. I understand thinking this^^. It might even be true, but there are other possibilities as well.
She also suggested that he might feel that this (a D) is the only thing he has control of that I can't change. So, if I just let it happen, it allows him to feel in control. You have no control over this.^^ You cannot make it 'not' happen so the statement "if I just let it happen..." suggests you are under the illusion that you do have some control. You don't. You can file, or you can stay in limbo waiting for him to file. That is what you control.
I check Leslie Cane's blog every few days and read her posts. I have found it useful and have found that a lot of it lines up with DB.
More later...meanwhile remember, don't get bogged down in what was or is said today,yesterday or tomorrow.
My h said things he does NOT recall and insists he'd "never say that", but I know he did. I even know where I was when he said it and what I was doing (in the guest bathroom, repairing the drywall)...so how important was what my h said then, if he literally cannot recall it and does not believe he'd "ever" say something like that?? I don't know the answer but the comment he made at the time was when I asked him if he believed I was "bluffing" or if he was "willing to take the chance of losing [his] family" and he replied, "I guess I'm willing to take that chance..." (And that comment killed me.)
but like I said, he does not believe he'd ever say that. But he did. And at the time he may even have meant it. Who knows? Does it matter now? Maybe not but at the time, OUCH.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Life is not always about being happy, or satisfied its about keeping on going. About learning and being better.
I think our purpose of loving and receiving love are happiness generators and working on ourselves to achieve that is our purpose in life. To love, be loved (many of us are not good recipients of love, and that hinders our ability to give it w/o expectation)
to do right by others and ourselves.
I guess my point here is that telling a WAS that happiness is not what life is about, will NOT HELP. It will confirm their choices to leave us, and they'll see us as the competition to happiness...
Be happy, OR BE WITH ME...and we don't want that equation.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
I'm really stuck on thinking the getting D is a huge failure. I feel as though I failed as a wife AND as a parent. I really, really don't know how to deal with failure. I don't allow myself to fail. I keep going until I succeed with whatever my goal was. Then welcome to the world of humanity. WE ALL "FAIL" at somethings...OR do we have "learning experiences" and improve? I choose to see it that way. My D7 will now be going through the same thing I did as a seven-year-old when my parents split up. No, she won't. Your mom married a lot of OMs and you felt she abandoned you. (Did I get that correctly?)
If so, Your d will never know that feeling, will she? Don't equate the two so much. There are similarities- yes, but there are also differences.
H says he realizes the effect this will have on her and he's sorry that she will be "collateral damage." I wanted to reach through the phone and punch him in the face.
He has no idea what is coming. Much of it comes in their teen years or 20s... IF she tells him...maybe they'll just have a very distant r, and that's probably the likely outcome if he doesn't get real help. MAYBE his IC will help but maybe not. (For all we know, the IC delayed the D request so we can't assume the IC is worthless, but a lot of them are pretty much listening boards to tell you if you are insane or dangerous and they leave everything else alone, which isn't helpful to families).
I am witnessing the "collateral damage" now with my own h, and it ain't a pretty picture. (I feel great compassion for my h, NOW, b/c he's in a lot of pain that is self inflicted. I think that might be the worst kind & that is HIS own damage so it's collateral but it's also direct...)
I already feel sorry for your h...but that's not your job.
You're responsible for your own happiness as are all of us. Now is the time to model that for your d. And to focus on her, being in the moment (huge life lesson for me as well).
She's watching you...what's up with the GAL?
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
I don't know how to be hopeful about this anymore. I don't feel like there is any left. If he's resolved in his head that things can't change because he's not "in love" (WTF does that even mean???), I'm not sure how I can hope. He has a mental block that isn't going to allow change. And he's perfectly fine with our family being collateral damage.
he's not perfectly fine and you have to stop that mind reading, which only serves to blame him, anger you and achieve nothing. Plus it is unlikely to even be true.
Anyhow, how terrifying for him to have to hope he's always "in love" when he marries or dates anyone. As if love is not at least partly an act of will/choice.
Gee, guess he'll never remarry b/c there are NO guarantees and love and happiness might not fall into his lap...
Try this exercise for 5 minutes, please. Imagine that back when things were good (as far as you know, that was early last fall). Now, imagine your h had died tragically in an accident.
You grieve, of course. Time passes, and you actually find yourself healing. Let's say a few years passed...
Can you tell me now, what would your life look like without your h, but with thou being happy?
IOW, what would you likely be doing for work? And what about any new hobbies? A class, a new language, a volunteer project, what specifically can you imagine doing as a single mother in that position, that fits into the "I'm happy" scenario? ENVISION THIS with details and flesh out that vision...tell us, what's it look like?
Think about it....and then, and only then,
ask yourself which of those things you can create for your life, NOW?
B/C you do have to learn how to be happy without your h. Whether you D or not, you DO need/want to be happy and only you can make that reality.
So let's hear some ideas...please. I swear this exercise helped me to GAL.
For GAL suggestions, let me mention some of what I did when we lived in the interior of Alaska, even in the winter.
And I had 3 kids including a baby (so you know, I don't want to hear about how 'busy' you are, or 'too busy' to GAL or "I have a child!"). That's more of a reason for GAL!
Inertia is the greatest enemy to GAL. Overcome that, & you'll be well on your way to a happier more fulfilling life. IMO, the more you overcome inertia, the better your R's will be with all people, including your w.
I volunteered at a battered women's shelter.
I coached a girl's softball team, two summers (my older D was on it). I was on the board of directors for Wrestling, (b/c our son wrestled). I auditioned for community theater and met some fun creative people. I got cast, too.
I did stand up comedy (and yes, I still do it). I did a whole set once on a MLCs at the Improv. It went very well. I learned to cross country ski, became a better shooter. I Learned to hunt big game, to deep sea fish, & I got better at downhill skiing.
I learned to use a snowmobile ("snow machine" to Alaskans) I loved riding. Learned to fly a plane, and I got a pilot's license. Edited a book. (The book ended up on the Best Seller's List. Who knew?)
I Worked out 3-4 times a week, and I really did get in excellent shape. Looking good made a world of difference to me. (Plus I'd just had our last child and needed to lose the baby weight. It was not easy to do, let alone in the dark, deathly of their long LONG cold winters).
In the winter, I used a tanning booth, which helped me a lot with depression. I felt more energized, and it probably helped my appearance, which also helps us FEEL better.
(I know that those tanning booths post skin cancer risks. I made the choice I felt was healthiest for ME at that time).
Saw a therapist and for some months, went on ADs.
Took a pottery class (very odd for me to do, but I liked it a lot).
Joined the Officer's Wives club after 15 years of active duty.
(Wish I had joined sooner! Met two women who are life long friends to this day.)
Joined a writer's group Took a class in Conversational French Took a class in Italian cooking
There is more, but I just wanted to suggest to you a few things you can do that do not cost a lot. Other than pilot training, most of these ^^ activities were free, or quite cheap.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
I think that having a friendship with my H helps to keep some connection alive. However, the thought of him being physically intimate with someone else is something I'm not sure I can handle. He has mentioned that it bothers him that my mind always goes there (him sleeping with someone else). He claims to have no interest in that. Maybe because my LL is physical touch, it's that thought that bothers me most. He would be giving what I desire so much to someone else.
This was a few posts ago, but just catching up now...
Ugh, I have that same feeling. I don't know if I could handle him being with someone else physically. I wouldn't want to hear about it or know about it and I'd kind of have to if we were still friends, right? Given when you started dating perhaps you have the same situation but...my H and I started dating when we were 17 so we were each other's only physical partners, and in my current frame of mind, if he were to be w/ someone else and then want to get back together, I would feel so crushed - that status that we had would now be gone forever. I don't know that I could get back together with him without wondering about that/having that image pop into my head. That same thing that is so valuable to me, is part of why my H wants out - he doesn't feel like he's experienced what's all "out there" and feels like he hasn't really lived his life by only being with one person (nevermind the other times he thought that's what he wanted, we broke up, he didn't date anyone else, and then decided I was really what he wanted..?!) I guess that's something I'll have to get over when or if we D, 'cause I probably won't want to be spending the rest of my life celibate...
Also, the thought exercise 25 just posted is so valuable. I do the same thing when I'm struggling with what to do or what new things to add to my life. The only change is that I tell myself H just disappeared off the face of the earth rather than tragically dying, something about that makes me a little sad.. but same concept I guess. If he just disappeared and there was no way he'd ever be around again, what would you do differently? I found this helpful when I'd start to have thoughts like.. should I buy this certain thing 'cause H would like it? Should I try to make dinner at a certain time? Will joining this group take too much time away from whatever else I'm doing (which I then realized really meant "will it take time away from being in H's presence and liking that I know exactly where he is?").
It's funny - my H has also said he has never wanted to be like his dad, but yet here we are in a not so different situation. His dad was emotionally unavailable, just went to work, came home, and watched TV, and justified not being there for his wife and kids because he brought home a paycheck. H's mom has told me about how she had wanted to D him early on when the kids were young but her pastor said that God had a plan for them and to stick with it, and she wished she hadn't listened. He was not a nice person and just avoided talking about difficult issues. H's logic is that he doesn't want to end up in a loveless marriage like his parents, so he wants to get out now because he thinks that will happen to us, too... what I see that I guess he doesn't is that his dad never made an effort to change that dynamic, and if there was an effort, it doesn't have to end up like that. But, not much to do about that now.
Me:30 H:29, no kids T:12, M:4 (when D was final) 12/13: "Don't think I want to be M anymore" 6/14: Separated (I move) 1/15: H filed for D 5/15: D final
one comment about "failure" and divorce. What if you are married for, say, 35 years, and have raised 5 kids who are good people. What if 33 of those years you are happy (according to both partners),
and then one partner checks out, for whatever reason?
So, the whole marriage and family life are all "a failure"?
I'd say they had a good thing going they can be proud of, they raised 5 good kids, and then, one or both of them broke down.
Cars break down. They are not "failures" but they do fail. Sometimes they were poorly made cars that never ran well, but other times they were reliable, fun cars that suddenly hit something and never worked the same. OR they needed repairs, the repairs were made and the car was fine OR the repair was not made...
Sometimes no one changed the oil and the well made, well running car, "fails"...
I think you can be successful and later, not be so successful. It cannot negate the reality that for some amount of time, things were good.
IF that is true, it will always be true. (Meaning, at some point you were happy and the marriage was good, working, succeeding).
Later it stopped. I do get why you say failure, & how badly it feels...(Truly, I get it)
but I don't want you to apply it to your whole existence. That's like saying your beautiful child was part of a mistake.
Make sense?
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Whoa, KGirl and 25yrsmlc!!! I just stumbled on to this thread and unfortunately I am way out of time to devote to reading prior posts, but what you guys have posted here is soooooo valuable to me too! Thank you for the advice! I'll be back this weekend to learn about who you are posting to and check out each of your threads. I've been feeling a little low today, but just reading what you guys posted here has brought me back up and given me lots of food for thought. Whew! Again, thanks!
Me 59 H47 M12 T22 No kids BD&S Apr 2,2013 - ILYBINILWY Filed 2/12/14 OW 11/13 The Universe always strikes you at your weakest point because that’s what most needs strengthening." – Joseph Campbell
I agree with bug and 25. I really like their pint of view on this one.
me: 47, W:49 M 16.5 years T 17 years Three kids - D17,D14, S13 Heart 2 heart about M 11/8/13 Bomb drop 11/29/13 W moved out 12/5/13 I Retained L 2/20/14 D filed 3/17/14
Wow...Lots of awesome stuff here today. Thanks to Paul, labug, 25, KGirl, Vossy, Upwards, LongRoad, and MrBond (and anyone else I may have missed) for reading and for your support. It means so much to me. I've been reading through as stuff was posted today, but wanted to sit with it for a bit before responding.
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Originally Posted By: Ggrass
Life is not always about being happy, or satisfied its about keeping on going. About learning and being better.
I think our purpose of loving and receiving love are happiness generators and working on ourselves to achieve that is our purpose in life. To love, be loved (many of us are not good recipients of love, and that hinders our ability to give it w/o expectation)
to do right by others and ourselves.
I guess my point here is that telling a WAS that happiness is not what life is about, will NOT HELP. It will confirm their choices to leave us, and they'll see us as the competition to happiness...
Be happy, OR BE WITH ME...and we don't want that equation.
25 - First, thank you for stopping by. I'm very grateful for your insight. I absolutely do not want that equation. I actually do think that happiness is a hugely important part of life. I just think they are way too many people out there who see happiness as a thing you find and possess instead of as something that you create.
WRT failure - Several of you have posted about that. The truth is, if I were talking to a friend, or my sister, or my D7, I would definitely tell them what you are saying to me. It's harder to convince myself of the same thing.
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Originally Posted By: hope456
My D7 will now be going through the same thing I did as a seven-year-old when my parents split up.
No, she won't. Your mom married a lot of OMs and you felt she abandoned you. (Did I get that correctly?)
If so, Your d will never know that feeling, will she? Don't equate the two so much. There are similarities- yes, but there are also differences.
Yup, you got it right. My mom has been married 5 times and had a bunch of live-in boyfriends along the way, too. She wasn't around consistently from about age 8 until around 14. To add to that, my dad remarried when I was 13. His new wife was closer to my age than his and couldn't stand the fact that my dad had three daddy's girls who were used to getting lots of his attention. I really do think I've forgiven my mom. I've accepted that she is limited and I love her anyway. Still, I wouldn't wish that experience on my D7, ever. I think it is probably irrational that I'm so focused on the age 7 thing. Two of my very good friends also had their parents D when they were 7. I did ask my H today if we could wait to finalize the D until after her birthday. He acted really irritated, but said that he would consider it. It was pretty clear that he doesn't understand the D process in our state at all. I'm at an advantage there since my sister is a family law attorney. He thought that the D was automatically final 60 days after filing. I explained to him that the process didn't work that way and we either had to come to an agreement as to terms for the decree, go through mediation, or have a trial before the D would be final.
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
He has no idea what is coming. Much of it comes in their teen years or 20s... IF she tells him...maybe they'll just have a very distant r, and that's probably the likely outcome if he doesn't get real help. MAYBE his IC will help but maybe not. (For all we know, the IC delayed the D request so we can't assume the IC is worthless, but a lot of them are pretty much listening boards to tell you if you are insane or dangerous and they leave everything else alone, which isn't helpful to families).
I am witnessing the "collateral damage" now with my own h, and it ain't a pretty picture. (I feel great compassion for my h, NOW, b/c he's in a lot of pain that is self inflicted. I think that might be the worst kind & that is HIS own damage so it's collateral but it's also direct...)
I already feel sorry for your h...but that's not your job.
You're responsible for your own happiness as are all of us. Now is the time to model that for your d. And to focus on her, being in the moment (huge life lesson for me as well).
She's watching you...what's up with the GAL?
I do feel sorry for my H. I believe that what he is going through must be really difficult. He seems to be in denial about some of the effects this is having/will have on our D. He has said repeatedly that leaving is necessary so that he can be a better father and a better man. That doesn't make any kind of sense to me at all. He seems to think she is and will be fine. Oh, and if there is an effect on her, then that is as it has to be because he has to worry about his own happiness for once. My H doesn't talk to me a whole lot about his IC, but some of the things he has mentioned make me doubt her helpfulness. One of the first things she told him was that if he wasn't happy, then he definitely needed to change the situation. To a person who already is almost certain that they want a D, that seems to me to just be telling him that he's doing the right thing. She may have meant that he needed to make a change to the situation (which could have included working on the M, instead of leaving it), but that isn't the way he took the advice.
For GAL, it depends on whether or not I have D7. You'll get no excuses about being too busy here. One of the first things I did after BD was cut way back at work. The amount of time I spent working had a negative effect on my M (love 20/20 hindsight!) and I decided it wasn't worth it to me to keep up the pace I had been keeping. When my D is with me, we're very active. We walk to the duck pond to feed the ducks and turtles, go to the zoo, go to the library, go to the movies, go shopping (she doesn't love shoe shopping yet, but I'm trying!!!), got to the science museum, and a bunch of other stuff. Tonight was a school night, but we want to a favorite restaurant for dinner and then came home and worked on creating artwork together. Without D7, I haven't been as good. I'm determined to start running again and get back in great shape. I'm also going to look for a yoga studio and check out the schedule to see what will work for me. I have started volunteering at the local food bank. I've also become involved in church again. I have a great set of friends who are always around when I need to get out, but I need to be more diligent about planning things with them.
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
he's not perfectly fine and you have to stop that mind reading, which only serves to blame him, anger you and achieve nothing. Plus it is unlikely to even be true.
Anyhow, how terrifying for him to have to hope he's always "in love" when he marries or dates anyone. As if love is not at least partly an act of will/choice.
Gee, guess he'll never remarry b/c there are NO guarantees and love and happiness might not fall into his lap...
I've seen you say on other threads that you wouldn't want to be the WAS. I completely agree. I think his road is likely a lot harder than mine. You're right. He isn't fine. He doesn't seem happy at all. He is moody and seems depressed most of the time when I see him. It's clear that he's being affected. He does not think love is a choice/action. He sees it as a feeling only. He's told me as much. He's also said that he will never get married again. I know not to believe him. He has no idea what will happen in the future. At one point, he told me that even if we got back together, he wouldn't be interested in ever marrying again. I told him that I had zero interest in a long-term relationship where marriage wasn't on the table. He came back to me a while later and told me that he would want to get married again if it was to me.
I have more, but this post is already so long that I'm going to start another one.
one comment about "failure" and divorce. What if you are married for, say, 35 years, and have raised 5 kids who are good people. What if 33 of those years you are happy (according to both partners),
and then one partner checks out, for whatever reason?
So, the whole marriage and family life are all "a failure"?
I'd say they had a good thing going they can be proud of, they raised 5 good kids, and then, one or both of them broke down.
Cars break down. They are not "failures" but they do fail. Sometimes they were poorly made cars that never ran well, but other times they were reliable, fun cars that suddenly hit something and never worked the same. OR they needed repairs, the repairs were made and the car was fine OR the repair was not made...
Sometimes no one changed the oil and the well made, well running car, "fails"...
I think you can be successful and later, not be so successful. It cannot negate the reality that for some amount of time, things were good.
IF that is true, it will always be true. (Meaning, at some point you were happy and the marriage was good, working, succeeding).
Later it stopped. I do get why you say failure, & how badly it feels...(Truly, I get it)
but I don't want you to apply it to your whole existence. That's like saying your beautiful child was part of a mistake.
Make sense?
It does make sense. It really does. I just can't seem to talk myself out of feeling that way so far. I don't believe that my M was a mistake. I wouldn't give up my D7 for anything. It's so hard to accept that I can't fix this, for my sake, for hers, and for my H's.
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
But I see this SO MUCH I'm wondering if it's genetic or some weird acting out, but it ends up hurting the ones you love the most, or should. MEANING, a lot of men here walk out on their families, but they come from that same background and resent their own dads for doing what they are NOW choosing...I think your h is about the 10th man I've read about, who comes from that background and "vowed" never to do that to HIS kids...and then does it. And regrets it, even while doing it. I believe guilt converts into anger/blame at the source of the guilt, which will usually be the LBS.
So I always tell LBSers NOT to "Try and guilt the WAS" b/c it never ever results in a lasting reconciliation. Shame is not a motivator for genuine lasting change. MY DB coach said something along the lines of "while it's rare that an LBSer admits to wanting to guilt their spouse, all the questions that start with "how can you do..." OR "why did you..." are designed to make the recipient feel defensive.
Those ("Why?" and "HOW CAN YOU...?" are the types of questions to be avoided..." and I think that is a great insight of hers. Keep it in mind, b/c the guilt that you participate in (not that he feels on his own, at night when he used to tuck her in, or knows he missed out on something, etc) is guilt that will backfire on you. The other things, the consequences that LIFE gives him, are his to handle, not yours.
I assume since you met while you were a freshman in college, your h does not have a lot of experience seeing you with OMs. I cannot see how it would hurt the situation, but I'll finish reading your thread... And It helps to know there are good men out there. THIS site has proved that, as well.
I also wonder if there is a genetic component. He is so scarred by what his dad did and, yet, here we are. He sees this as completely different from what happened with his dad (and what happened with my mom) because we are different people than my parents were. And then he doesn't show up when he's supposed to. Yup, totally different. I'm definitely guilty of what you mentioned regarding thinking that I'm not trying to feel guilty and then asking WAY too many of those questions. I really do need to work on that. It is more of the same behavior that is obviously not helping the situation.
WRT OM's, no, my H doesn't have a lot of experience with seeing me with them. There were some people who I was casually involved with before we got together that were from the same circle of friends that he was and he has always been insanely jealous of that (even though he was engaged to someone else). He vehemently denies this jealousy, but the fact that he asked questions about specific things that occurred before we got together years into our marriage makes it pretty clear that he was bothered by it.
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
3 things to do/think when he talks about the future or your M or R...(which you do Not bring up unless it's b/c you are filing and letting him know...)
1) pay NO attention to spew or his "thinking out loud;" just don't --- UNLESS
2) you can listen for clues or "intel" about what was missing/"wrong" in the marriage, that you can control or change, AND which you would like change...so you can become a woman only a fool would leave...
IF you act like you are on a recon assignment, gathering "intel", instead of getting defensive or fearful, you LISTEN for useful info for later analysis. If it's not useful or it's too hurtful, you STOP letting it in.
3) IF HE brings up a painful piece of the past, AND IF there was something you did that hurt him, you can say "H, I'm sorry I hurt you. IF I had it all over to do again, there are lots of things I'd do differently."
IF HE brings up something from the past that is not true or you do not recall it that way (and trust me, our memories get foggy too, so don't call him a "liar" like THIS woman almost said to her h...but before I could blurt out something in anger (brilliantly), my oldest d mentioned that it was true! So I really had not recalled it that way at all!)
You can say "Wow, that's not how I recall 'X' at all, but I'm sorry you were hurt, (and then repeat the second clause) "and if I had it all to do over again, I'd do a lot of things differently."
Those^^ responses show YOUR ability/desire to change, your genuine regret about pain you caused, and neither response is overly defensive on your end. They don't escalate matters, but nor are you kissing up for something you don't even recall, so you're not being a doormat.
Thank you for this ^^^. I love this practical advice that I can read everyday and apply to my situation when the opportunity arises.
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Originally Posted By: hope456
She also suggested that he might feel that this (a D) is the only thing he has control of that I can't change. So, if I just let it happen, it allows him to feel in control.
You have no control over this.^^ You cannot make it 'not' happen so the statement "if I just let it happen..." suggests you are under the illusion that you do have some control. You don't. You can file, or you can stay in limbo waiting for him to file. That is what you control.
I really, really don't like that I have no control over this. I do get it though. I think I did a bad job of explaining what she was trying to get it. My friend was suggesting that I don't get in the way at all. Once he files, I just sign the paperwork. We have some custody things to discuss, but this really should be relatively amicable. She thinks I should try to slow it down, but speed it up as much as possible once he files. In essence, just give him what he says he wants without any argument. Yes, I know that's what is advised here, too.
And now for the exercise in envisioning a future without my H...
My D7 would be my #1 priority. I would spend lots of quality time with her, being a girl scout troop leader, or coaching a soccer team, volunteering at her school. I would be involved in the community, volunteering at the children's hospital and the food bank. I would be physically active (running, yoga) and in great shape. I would still be working hard at a career that I love. I would spend lots of time with friends and family. I would be the mom in the neighborhood whose house all the kids want to be at.
So, what can I do now? I have already started volunteering at her school. I also was asked (and accepted) an officer position at her school's PTA. I have started volunteering, but want to commit to a regular schedule. It is very important to me and something I always made excuses about before. I could start running and sign up for yoga right now. I really like my job, but am not so pleased with my company, so I'm looking for a new job. I can start being a better friend. I get "busy" so I don't call or hang out with them as often as I should. I love them and they are always there for me and I need to make keeping those friendships more of a priority.
Ugh, I have that same feeling. I don't know if I could handle him being with someone else physically. I wouldn't want to hear about it or know about it and I'd kind of have to if we were still friends, right? Given when you started dating perhaps you have the same situation but...my H and I started dating when we were 17 so we were each other's only physical partners, and in my current frame of mind, if he were to be w/ someone else and then want to get back together, I would feel so crushed - that status that we had would now be gone forever. I don't know that I could get back together with him without wondering about that/having that image pop into my head. That same thing that is so valuable to me, is part of why my H wants out - he doesn't feel like he's experienced what's all "out there" and feels like he hasn't really lived his life by only being with one person (nevermind the other times he thought that's what he wanted, we broke up, he didn't date anyone else, and then decided I was really what he wanted..?!) I guess that's something I'll have to get over when or if we D, 'cause I probably won't want to be spending the rest of my life celibate...
We were not each other's only physical partners. My H has A LOT more experience than I do. Honestly, it isn't something that has ever bothered me because it was in the past, before we were together. Because we promised to be each other's only partners from the point of M forward, I still can't stand the idea of him being with someone else. Oh, and the thought of me being with someone else? Terrifying. But, you're right. I have no intentions of being celibate for the rest of my life, so I guess I'll have to figure it out.
Originally Posted By: KGirl
It's funny - my H has also said he has never wanted to be like his dad, but yet here we are in a not so different situation. His dad was emotionally unavailable, just went to work, came home, and watched TV, and justified not being there for his wife and kids because he brought home a paycheck. H's mom has told me about how she had wanted to D him early on when the kids were young but her pastor said that God had a plan for them and to stick with it, and she wished she hadn't listened. He was not a nice person and just avoided talking about difficult issues. H's logic is that he doesn't want to end up in a loveless marriage like his parents, so he wants to get out now because he thinks that will happen to us, too... what I see that I guess he doesn't is that his dad never made an effort to change that dynamic, and if there was an effort, it doesn't have to end up like that. But, not much to do about that now.
What is with these guys? My H doesn't see himself as being like his dad at all. It's so clear to me that he is though. Maybe he'll figure his stuff out and not turn out the same way. For my D7's sake, I really, really hope so.
So, H called me tonight to ask if I was completely opposed to having my sister do some of the D paperwork. I couldn't say a lot because D7 was in the car with me. I am completely opposed to having my sister file the petition for D. He wants to have her do it because it is going to be a lot of research for him and a lot of work. He seemed irritated that I wouldn't agree to ask her to do it. I will ask her to draft the divorce decree, but the petition is a different story for me. I talked to her about it later and she said that she absolutely would not file the petition, even if I asked her to do it. She also said that it is really easy and straightforward so she's not sure why he thinks it is complicated.
During our conversation, H said that he has already been researching and the filing fee is only $250 and he's going to start working on the paperwork next week. He's not sure how long it will take him. He did not seem thrilled with the idea of waiting until my D7 was 8 before finalizing. I didn't ask him to wait to file. I just asked him to keep me apprised of the time frame so that I wasn't blindsided. Still, he seemed very frustrated that I would even ask about waiting to finalize. It would really only be 2-3 months later. I can't un-ask it and it would mean a lot to me if he would do it. I guess now I just don't ask again and see what he does.
On another note, I'm still very hesitant to tell people about the S and now impending D. I'm embarrassed about it. I also think I would be embarrassed about getting back together after a D. I'm not sure what to do about either of those things.
Any other thoughts on friendship? Am I still at a place where I should accept some invitations to do things with my H, but not all? I really, truly do miss his company and don't want to lose him in my life.
