Starsky! I'm going to be pulling some things from the pile of information I'm reading today and posting it here in an attempt to get some pointers and clarification.
Remember the "pile of gravel" analogy that OG_Lou gave you in 2007?
Quote:
Choc, I see a big pile of disconnects between you and your W, I will call the gravel pile.
The pile got to its present size, a scoop at a time. You have a shovel and can't get rid of the pile in a few days. No prince kissing the princess and she wakes up. That type of story just sells books.
Okay, so how are those of us who are dim/dark doing ANYTHING that relates to shoveling away the pile?
I see you struggled with how "everything is counterintuitive," too (or at least at one point you asked that question). But how, if we need to "shovel," are we doing ANYTHING by sitting completely still? I mean, I get the "working on us" part. But it still feels we're not actively FIGHTING for our Ms and families like you did, even when you had confirmed an EA.
Anyone can respond, obviously. But I directed this at Starsky because I pulled it from his old thread.
M: 40 H: 44 Married 14 years S11 & D6; D20 & D19 from previous M 2BDs/PAs, 8 years apart Piecing: April 2014
And then this, from NOPkins ... which probably just answered that (above) for me ...
Quote:
There is a time and a place to demand respect from her, but you haven't shown her that you are worth the effort yet.
For a time, at least a short time, you show her what she is potentially giving up (the good Choc), and her intact family.
After that, you confront with the choices. Doing it before you have established that you are the best and the right choice, will almost ensure that she makes the wrong decision.
M: 40 H: 44 Married 14 years S11 & D6; D20 & D19 from previous M 2BDs/PAs, 8 years apart Piecing: April 2014
Remember the "pile of gravel" analogy that OG_Lou gave you in 2007?
. . .
Okay, so how are those of us who are dim/dark doing ANYTHING that relates to shoveling away the pile?
I see you struggled with how "everything is counterintuitive," too (or at least at one point you asked that question). But how, if we need to "shovel," are we doing ANYTHING by sitting completely still? I mean, I get the "working on us" part. But it still feels we're not actively FIGHTING for our Ms and families like you did, even when you had confirmed an EA.
You can't shovel (at least in terms of addressing prior legitimate marital complaints, which I THINK if I remember was the context there??) until the wayward spouse ends their affair, and asks "what will it take?" to come back to the marriage.
In the meantime, sometimes you are "doing" by your "don't do ANYTHING." NOT PURSUING is a core underpinning of DBing, and it's so counter-intuitive that it's probably the #1 thing that newbies question, and I know you've been here before and aren't even a newbie. Especially men I've noticed (so yeah, sometimes you're no lady, lol -- kidding!) have a hard time with this, as we are natural "doers/fixers" and can't stand just standing still.
The other part of it you're missing is that you ARE supposed to be doing . . . just doing on YOURSELF! Cadet always closes his posts with "your husband/wife has given you a gift . . . TIME. Use it wisely," and it's very true. There's a TON of gravel-digging to do, but when the spouse is still wayward, you start digging on your OWN gravel.
And then this, from NOPkins ... which probably just answered that (above) for me ...
Quote:
There is a time and a place to demand respect from her, but you haven't shown her that you are worth the effort yet.
For a time, at least a short time, you show her what she is potentially giving up (the good Choc), and her intact family.
After that, you confront with the choices. Doing it before you have established that you are the best and the right choice, will almost ensure that she makes the wrong decision.
Ha -- yep! BINGO. I hadn't seen that before I responded to you, but NOPkins (and MrsNOP) were my mentors thru my sitch, and a GODSEND. Wise, wise couple and he especially helped me immeasurably. I firmly believe that God put him in my life right when I needed him, and we literally exchanged probably 4,000 emails I'm guessing.
And then this, from NOPkins ... which probably just answered that (above) for me ...
Quote:
There is a time and a place to demand respect from her, but you haven't shown her that you are worth the effort yet.
For a time, at least a short time, you show her what she is potentially giving up (the good Choc), and her intact family.
After that, you confront with the choices. Doing it before you have established that you are the best and the right choice, will almost ensure that she makes the wrong decision.
This ^^^^ is all classic "Plan A/Plan B" stuff by Harley. In DBing it's "shining a light back toward the marriage." You have to work on yourself while drawing your boundaries, and look for ways to demonstrate your positive changes OTHER than pursuing them directly. It's subtle, but there are ways to do it (by your interactions with others, either that your wayward spouse observes or that gets back to them is just one example, but there are others).
Everybody on here (especially men I've noticed) wants to try to fix their marriages WHILE their spouse is still wayward, and prove to them that "I GET IT! I'M A BETTER GUY NOW!" . . . but they are in NO mood to hear you. At worse, they won't notice, and at best they'll RESENT THE HELL OUT OF YOU for making these improvements NOW, after they've gone and done something foolish like having an affair.
Piecing is like an iceberg, and 95% of it comes AFTER they return to the marriage. It took the fetching Mrs. Puppy and I probably 2 - 2.5 years just to get back to a HEALTHY dynamic between us, and fully 3-5 before our marriage was one of those "stronger than ever" ones you hear about on here.
The gravel-shoveling comes later, IF you are fortunate to get a shot at it (by your wayward spouse deciding to end their affair and come back to the marriage). If you start shoveling your marital gravel WHILE they are wayward, they will perceive it as weakness and an alarming lack of personal boundaries that will actually make them feel LESS safe in the marriage, believe it or not.
I described my journal as one of PARALLEL PATHS . . . one was DBing, 180s, becoming the better option and "a person only a fool would leave" . . . while the other was pretty hard-core financial, legal and emotional boundary-setting and enforcing.
It wasn't really pure DBing, and doesn't fit with everyone's personality and stomach.
Train, I thought that I already posted something like this, but it may have been to someone else. Lets put aside DB for a minute. Men are often encouraged to FIGHT for their marriage- to compete for their wife's love. Like it or not, we're programmed as men to pursue a mate, women are programmed to respond. Therefore, a pursuing woman is not percieved to be "attractive" to a man. While wives tend to respond to a husband that changes his ways, the same cannot be said (in general) for a WAH. Men are likely to return only when their options are shot.
Additionally, in your case, this isn't your H's first affair. You cannot treat this situation as if it was a first affair that he just found himself in (ie: he started having feelings for a female work friend vs actually LOOKING for an affair). Your H was a predator in this case. He sought this woman's attention, asked for her number and pursued her. You think you can change someone wired like that by being a tad less critical to him at home?! *cough* *cough* Me neither.
Starsky (or choc, or pup- no I'M confused ) was fighting a different situation than you are. Look at the commonalities, not the differences, in his approach. A plan of action, boundaries, 180's, no "pursuit". Take your lessons from there.
Your husband deserves to get his butt kicked. He has a way of looking at life in a very selfish way. He gets what he wants, who cares who gets hurt in the process. For some reason certain women are drawn into men like that. Perhaps it's some sort of urge to be the one that changes them? Who knows. I can tell you, however, that unless he has a mind to change the way he approaches the world he will always be the same jerk that abandoned you. Changing yourself to somehow re-attract a man that abandoned you twice? Who will you have to become to maintain his interest? Is it even possible? Tough questions....
Wait!.... I have one more 2x4 in the 'ole tool box!
Please be very careful hanging out with a married man- that's how affairs begin. You don't have to be looking for it, it just happens. Sneaks up on you, if you will. Teaching someone something new, especially with an element of danger, can be quite the aphrodisiac.... Maybe you have no interest, but that doesn't mean that it might not mess up HIS head and affect HIS marriage.
I hope you don't take what I wrote as hurtful- that's not my intent.
