She gave you a good list of things to consider on your 180 plans, which it sounds like you already have. Some of those things will need to change for any future relationship to be successful, so obviously those are the ones to start with.
WRT her "I was never attracted to you" complaint, that's a very tough one. A lot of people get "I'm not attracted to you anymore", which is something you can work on, but "I was never attracted to you" can be a more difficult landscape.
There are two ways you can respond to it:
1) You can start running down the road of trying to be more attractive, or more in line with what she wants
-- or --
2) You can decide that you are who you are, you're willing to work on you, and if that's not good enough for her, that's her loss versus your shortcoming.
Personally I think you're much better served with the second approach. If you buy into her complaint that you're "not attractive enough" or otherwise deficient, that acknowledgement alone will sabotage any efforts you make to be more attractive.
When people fall in love, it has a physiological effect, it releases brain chemicals that diminish your ability for rational decision making and make you feel wonderful. This romantic "in love" period cannot last -- it has a shelf life, and is eventually replaced by a more conscious love, a decision to love versus a "feeling that is just there". i.e. if you act loving toward your spouse, you feel loving toward your spouse.
For people who were initially "in love", echoes of those feelings will resurface over the course of your relationship in response to life events. You will get little "hits" of feeling in love, and that brings a lot of comfort. You tend to see your spouse as a composite of how they are now, how you remember them when you met, and how they make you feel.
If this initial "in love" was *truly* missing, then the echo effect is also missing, because there is nothing to return to. That can leave the relationship feeling very empty for the one without the "in love" feelings, which seems to be what your wife has been feeling.
Now personally I don't believe that your wife was never "in love" with you. I think she's convinced herself of that due to things that have happened since the "in love" wore off. Therefore, I do believe it can be reignited, but not if you chase it.
The only way it comes back is if you seem to no longer care, to have moved on, and to be confident in your new path.
The great irony here is that the WAS generally is not interested in returning until you no longer care if they do or not.
Acc
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
"The great irony here is that the WAS generally is not interested in returning until you no longer care if they do or not."
this is key.
Originally Posted By: Accuray
She gave you a good list of things to consider on your 180 plans, which it sounds like you already have. Some of those things will need to change for any future relationship to be successful, so obviously those are the ones to start with.
It was disturbingly similar to the laundry list of typical "nice guy" behaviors outlined in Glover's "No More Mr. Nice Guy". It at least outlines a path forward towards breaking some of the preconceptions and typical behaviors. The key to all of it, however, has been not just reading and understanding the book, but actually implementing what it suggests. All too often it's things that are outside my comfort zone, but I can see how following it to its conclusions (along with the supplemental work/readings that are recommended on the website) will pay off many times over.
Originally Posted By: Accuray
WRT her "I was never attracted to you" complaint, that's a very tough one. A lot of people get "I'm not attracted to you anymore", which is something you can work on, but "I was never attracted to you" can be a more difficult landscape.
It wasn't quite "I was never attracted to you", but "I was never all that attracted to you". Its subtle difference, but one I feel is worth noting. Maybe she was comparing me to what she felt during the affair. Maybe she was trying to rationalize all the times she strayed during college and graduate school. Maybe she was telling the truth and I'm wasting my time with her. I won't bother trying to read her mind here.
Originally Posted By: Accuray
There are two ways you can respond to it:
1) You can start running down the road of trying to be more attractive, or more in line with what she wants
-- or --
2) You can decide that you are who you are, you're willing to work on you, and if that's not good enough for her, that's her loss versus your shortcoming.
Personally I think you're much better served with the second approach. If you buy into her complaint that you're "not attractive enough" or otherwise deficient, that acknowledgement alone will sabotage any efforts you make to be more attractive.
Believe it or not, I'm actually willing to become more in line with what she wants, so long as it's consistent with where I feel I want to be anyway. I'm not willing to accept that I'm the spineless recluse that I had finally morphed into about six months ago after years of being walked all over. What I finally realized was that I hadn't allowed her to make me feel bad...that she was neither responsible for my emotions or my needs. I've spent way too long and lost touch with too many friends chasing after her approval. During college there wasn't a shortage of people who found me attractive...it's too bad I didn't stumble across NMMNG back then. There are only a few deficiencies that I'll never be able to fully address...I'm not getting any taller, my voice is never getting any deeper, and I'm never going to be a "social" maven.
Originally Posted By: Accuray
When people fall in love, it has a physiological effect, it releases brain chemicals that diminish your ability for rational decision making and make you feel wonderful. This romantic "in love" period cannot last -- it has a shelf life, and is eventually replaced by a more conscious love, a decision to love versus a "feeling that is just there". i.e. if you act loving toward your spouse, you feel loving toward your spouse.
For people who were initially "in love", echoes of those feelings will resurface over the course of your relationship in response to life events. You will get little "hits" of feeling in love, and that brings a lot of comfort. You tend to see your spouse as a composite of how they are now, how you remember them when you met, and how they make you feel.
If this initial "in love" was *truly* missing, then the echo effect is also missing, because there is nothing to return to. That can leave the relationship feeling very empty for the one without the "in love" feelings, which seems to be what your wife has been feeling.
Now personally I don't believe that your wife was never "in love" with you. I think she's convinced herself of that due to things that have happened since the "in love" wore off. Therefore, I do believe it can be reignited, but not if you chase it.
The only way it comes back is if you seem to no longer care, to have moved on, and to be confident in your new path.
The great irony here is that the WAS generally is not interested in returning until you no longer care if they do or not.
Acc
I did notice how quickly her path changed from "I was never really all that attracted to you and regret marrying you" to "Okay, I'll go NC and see a MC, I don't just want to give up" when I told her that I was already aware of most of the issues, had been working on them, and would continue working on them regardless of what she did. Whether or not she was attracted to me was her issue to deal with. If she didn't want to be with me, I'd find someone who would. I didn't say it in a mean way, just as a statement of fact.
There are times where I feel like I'm just not acting like myself...like I'm just faking my newfound self-esteem and I wonder wtf am I doing. Last weekend I was out with a couple of friends until 2am (that's unheard of for me). This weekend I'm going out a cage fight with a friend from work (one of the guys from the gym is fighting...just call me Lloyd). I've been going out to eat with friends from work twice a week now. Whatever it is it seems to be working. I'm getting a life outside of my marriage and actually enjoying myself. At some point she'll be essentially irrelevant.
I'm getting a life outside of my marriage and actually enjoying myself. At some point she'll be essentially irrelevant.
That's the starting point for your future, and there can be no starting point until you get there. The future after that may be with her, or it may not be, but it will be on *your* terms.
My favorite quote from Fast Times at Ridgemont High:
Mike Damone: That's the idea, Rat. That's the attitude.
Mark Ratner: The attitude?
Mike Damone: Yeah! The attitude dictates that you don't care whether she comes, stays, lays, or prays. I mean whatever happens, your toes are still tappin'. Now when you got that, then you have the attitude.
Get the attitude.
Acc
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
me: 47, W:49 M 16.5 years T 17 years Three kids - D17,D14, S13 Heart 2 heart about M 11/8/13 Bomb drop 11/29/13 W moved out 12/5/13 I Retained L 2/20/14 D filed 3/17/14
It's been a little while since my last post...I feel that an update is overdue. When it comes to the relationship I suspect I've taken a few steps backward, but individually I've made a bit more progress. Taken as a whole it feels like it all evens out.
Since my DD was born I've gone out of town for a day or two, but never for the entire week until last week. Prior to leaving I'd gone out with some friends to see some MMA matches (one of the guys from the gym was fighting in a headlining match). My WW had made a comment about me "going along with the guys"...I'd told her that I'd been the one to actually plan the event and get everyone together. She was pretty surprised.
While out of town I ended up going out with my coworker pretty much every night. It gave my wife an opportunity to have a trial run to see how things would go on her own if we did the 50/50 custody (it was essentially 4 nights on her own). During that time the garage door came off the track and the key fob for the car stopped working, but in both instances she was initially flustered and eventually able to fix things on her own. What she WASN'T prepared for, though, was my DD getting up a few times each night. By the time I came home, she'd been gotten up four times and six times over the previous two evenings. While I expect being able to take care of the things that went wrong and not being scared at night was probably empowering, she wasn't the most pleasant person to be around after getting so little sleep those two nights.
When it was time to come home this past Friday, my coworker and I decided to forgo the later direct flight in favor of a much earlier flight with a brief layover. I ended up getting home about seven hours earlier than she was expecting (flowers in hand). She was annoyed that I had gotten home so soon...she hadn't done much to keep up with the place. The living room looked like a toy chest had exploded, dishes were piled on the sink and counter, the floor obviously hadn't been swept. I don't know if she had planned on doing all that before I got home or what...but I was rather pissed that my DD was having to live in this mess!
The interesting thing about while I was gone. I imagined that she would be beyond excited about having a break from me. She never asked why I was going down before I left or what I had done when I came back home. While down there, though, she was constantly texting or e-mailing throughout the day. One morning I hadn't said anything by noon...so she e-mailed me asking why I wasn't talking to her. When I come home, however, she's suddenly quiet again and ignoring me. It seems like she only wants me when I'm not available.
WW came home last night from the session seeming a little bit happier and calmer. All that I asked was whether she liked the counselor or not (seeing as how the one this past January was pretty lousy). She didn’t volunteer anything that they had discussed, but said that she really liked this woman a lot better…she offered a lot more insight into what they discussed. Before she could really make any decisions about whether or not she would want to stay and work on things, she wanted at least one more session. I’m not even going to both trying to read her mind here. At this point I’m just waiting the week until I find out a little bit more.
Yeah, I am not a fan of IC for M couples. I just think there shouldn't be any more secrets and she doesn't seem willing to share what goes on in the sessions. It puts you at a disadvantage not knowing how your W is spinning things. So, all it really accomplishes is helping your W solidify her position only. It is too one-sided.
Plus, these C's are worthless as MC; they are more like D facilitators. I think the only halfway decent marriage counseling is actually spiritual; as in speaking with a priest. WAS tend to avoid that though; probably too ashamed to try to run their con on a member of the clergy.
From what you have posted so far, I don't see her doing anything unless it benefits her alone.
You should have told her she looked a little chunky in her little rompers. Too harsh? I don't think so. She certainly doesn't hold back telling you she "is not attracted" to you.
Yeah, I am not a fan of IC for M couples. I just think there shouldn't be any more secrets and she doesn't seem willing to share what goes on in the sessions. It puts you at a disadvantage not knowing how your W is spinning things. So, all it really accomplishes is helping your W solidify her position only. It is too one-sided.
I was disappointed with how things went. I'd picked the practice because the MC's primary focus was adult couples dealing with infidelity. Because my WW went on her own, she was sent to someone else entirely. While it's a good thing she's getting her issues worked out (perhaps?), I was much happier when I wasn't back in limbo.
Yesterday afternoon was my WW's third meeting with the IC. Shortly after finishing the session she texted me and told me that she had scheduled an appointment with the MC for this upcoming Saturday. It's annoying that she still assumes she's the only one making decisions on the relationship. I'm sure she imagines she's doing me a favor by considering to try.
I hope that because we're seeing someone different in the practice that I won't be starting three sessions behind everyone else, but I recognize it's just as likely that notes from IC could be referenced to help move things along initially. Although this could put me might put me at a "disadvantage" early on, I think that I've pretty well recognized my role in the problems in the M and have no problem owning up to them. What could be more important (and interesting) is any spin my WW may have put on her own past behavior. She might acknowledge the affair, but what about the Craigslist thing, her conduct and lack of support immediately after discovering the affair, her contribution to the dysfunctional dynamic of the relationship?
A question that has been asked is what will it take for me to want to move forward. Four months ago I basically just wanted NC, transparency, honesty, and an open dialogue about what had happened. Instead it feels like I've been put through an emotional meat grinder (several times over, just for good measure). It's easy to emotionally detach when I'm not at home or not around her. I was having a lot of success detaching the rest of the time when I thought I was going to be single again soon and able to move out/on. Now that she's interested in trying to work things out, I'm stuck with the decisions of 1) whether I also want to work things out and 2) what would it take.
Do I want to work things out? Maybe, but only if she hit all the points raised in the "what will it take" question. The original points of NC, transparency, honesty, and an open dialogue still stand. She needs to get tested. I also want to know the deeper answers to why she let it go on for so long, why she cheats, what these "issues" she mentioned might be and what role they contributed to all this, and why she wouldn't cheat again in the future. She's always said how she doesn't have any regrets in life...she never wastes her time looking back and second guessing her decisions. This will be a very unique experience having her past hauled back into the present.
