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Hello,

About 5 months ago, my husband announced he was moving out, a week before our 6th anniversary.  Our daughter was almost-three at the time.

Back story:  I have struggled with anxiety and mild-to-moderate depression for years.  After our daughter was born, I had PPD which was never diagnosed.  On top of that, we moved into a new apartment (with a new mortgage) two weeks after our daughter was born (in fact, our closing took place the same day I gave birth).  My husband had just started a new job 6 weeks before that. Any one of these major life changes could cause stress in a relationship. We had a perfect storm. So, whatever communication problems we had in our marriage just got worse and worse and worse after our daughter was born.  Resentment built up, but was never dealt with, and we became more and more disconnected.

I had asked him several times to start counseling-- he always refused, saying that our problems were not so bad and that I was making too much of every little conflict.

Now he says he just doesn't love me anymore, can't envision us happy together again, and left because he was just so unhappy and worried that our daughter would be affected by the tension and lack of warmth in our home.

I have taken responsibility for my role-- I should have gotten help for my depression and anxiety, but never did, even though he encouraged me to do so.  I recognize many of the ways I contributed to our disconnection.  I am working on myself- therapy, medication to treat my mental health issues (which is working extremely well), reconnecting with friends and other interests. He is unwilling to work on our relationship and has leased an apartment nearby.  

I made SO many mistakes in the last few months-- guilting him, shaming him, screaming at him, trying to logically plead our case, sending him articles, etc. etc.  Oops.

I'm trying to figure out what to do now... I'm torn-- I want to give him space so that he can realize that change is possible.  But at the same time, he seems so content for us to be cordial, even friendly co-parents.  I am so reluctant to let him think that I'm ok with that.  I feel so betrayed and angry. And now, I'm even starting to wonder whether it is worth trying to save the marriage. Why should I bother and care if he doesn't? What's so great about him anyway?

Most days I'm so proud of my progress and strength. I appreciate the support of this forum-- I have read many of the postings and found comfort in them.

Thanks.

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Hi Claire, I am sorry for the difficult time you are having. It is very common to have the issues you are having with all the life chances that have happened. When people walk away without working on the relationship and getting clarity on what they could of done differently and why they are in the situation they are in, unfortunately they go on and have the same issues in the next relationship.It would be extremely beneficial for you to talk to a DB coach, even if your husband won't. Your coach will help you come up with a plan on how to interact with your husband that can help turn your marriage around. If you do nothing, nothing will change. You also want to be sure you are doing what is best for your daughter as well. Take care.


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Claire,

I'm sorry you find yourself here. I know how tough it is, but if you're going through this situation, I don't think there's a better place for you to get support.

My H has said many of the same things yours has said. I love you, but I'm not in love with you, we're better off as friends, etc.

Now he says he just doesn't love me anymore, can't envision us happy together again, and left because he was just so unhappy and worried that our daughter would be affected by the tension and lack of warmth in our home.

This ^^^^^^ is part of the WAS script. You should read Sandi's rules in the newcomers section. One of them is believe none of what he says and 50% of what he does. Just because he feels this way today, doesn't mean he'll feel like that tomorrow.

Have you read DB or DR? They are both great resources.

As for your question, yes, DB is worth it. One of the concepts in MWD's book is that it takes one to tango. Changing what you are doing can change the dynamic of the relationship. There is no guarantee that any of our M's will be saved, but using this time to work on yourself can only be good for you and for future relationships (whether with your H or someone else).

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Claire

Completely agree with above. I read the book and came to the forum desperate to save my marriage and quickly learned that DB was about something bigger than that -saving myself. That will always be worth it.

Don't worry about mistakes you made. We all do it in the beginning. Some of the things I said and did (I sent lots of articles too) make me cringe but you can't take it back so dont worry about it.


5 months is not very long although it feels like forever. I am at 6 months and constantly cycling through phases of anger sadness regret etc. I also suffer from anxiety that my h held over my head ( he would stop X if I got on meds) I did start taking meds after BD and feel so much better now.

Sounds like you have some good plans going. Keep it up. Keep the focus on you and your daughter. Keep coming here for dupport. We are here for each other.

Julie


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Claire, I'm sorry to hear you're going through this. I think most people here have made the same mistakes that you did early on in their situations. I know I did a lot of reasoning, promising change and even a little begging during the first few months after my W left. As Julie said, you can't change it now so try not to dwell on it.

The DB and DR books are both great. I would personally recommend the DR book if you were to pick one.

One thing you will hear a lot of people say on the forums here is to make yourself into the spouse that anyone would be crazy to leave. If you can make yourself the best version of you that you can it's possible your H will notice the changes and rethink his decisions. If he doesn't, you'll be in a great place to have a very happy future without him.


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Claire sorry to hear your in this position.

Divorce busting will save YOU if not your marriage then so i'd say yes is absolutely worth it, have you read the DB/DR books? They will give you lots of tips and good advice on not only trying to move your R with your H to a better place but more importantly how to move forward yourself regardless of your H's actions & choices.

I think we all go through the period of crying, begging, pleading, shouting but there comes a point when we realise that it isnt helping (usually making things worse!) and its time for something different - Divorce busting is that something different, surely its worth a shot?

Good luck!


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Are you still around?


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Thank you all for the words of encouragement! It is so appreciated! Yes I am realizing that this is for me--i can only control myself after all. My new mantra: "I am confident, capable, and strong."

We are going to a mediation lawyer next week. The last time we went, a couple of months ago, I could barely get through the meeting. I told him I needed more time beforewe did that again. He brought it up again but now I am ready to show I am able to stand on my own without falling apart. I'm sure I'll have lots more questions after that.

Btw... does anyone here worry about privacy/spouse recognizing them here?

Thanks.


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Some other thoughts: -- about in-laws.

I saw my MIL today. I used to see her every week (she watches D once/week), but now H relieves her after work and I don't come home until after he puts D to bed (in my home). But H is out of town, so I saw MIL today. She is divorced herself (H's father left H's mother when he was very young), so I know she can relate to my sich. BUT-- even though we were quite close, she completely avoids mentioning it at all. It is just business as usual-- talk about work (we are both in the same line of work), my D, etc. She has always been a confidante and source of support for me (I am not very close with my own Mother), and I miss my relationship with her terribly. She is not willing or able to give me any insight into her own experience dealing with divorce. It's so frustrating. When H left, she told me she loved me, was here for me. But she has pretty much cut me out. I found out my SFIL was having surgery from MY mom, who heard it from our nanny! 2 new babies have been born into their family-- she didn't bother to inform me of that, either.

But-- on the bright side-- I decide to DB her, too. At first, I couldn't see her or my SFIL without breaking down in tears. But, today, I kept it totally light and cool. Came home from work in a great mood, showed friendliness to her and lots of positive love and appreciation to my D. Asked about her family in a genuine way. ("Give them my love!") And then left it with "Not sure when I'll see you again, but take care!" No lingering goodbyes, no "I miss you", no questions about H.

Does she realize what a stupid fool her son is? Has she told him what a mistake he is making? What a great person he is giving up? I have no idea. I'll never know.

How do you deal with losing friends and family relationships? That's been one of the hardest parts for me.
--Claire


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Ok. A new day, and new questions.

For the last few weeks I finally started following the DB rules in earnest-- no contact except related to our daughter, no negative emotions, staying upbeat and positive, slowly getting a life. And feeling quite proud of myself.

But two things: for the most part he still acts quite grumpy around me, even when my attitude is upbeat, as if just the thought of being around me--even if I am happy-- makes him miserable.

But then there are other things too, like "double standard" kind of stuff, which was always an issue in our R. Today, he is working from (my) home because our baby sitter called in sick. It's his night to take care of her, which means he is supposed to relieve babysitter at 5, give D3 dinner, bath and put her to bed (in my home). I come home at 8:30. That is our established plan. He came over at 7 this morning, and on my way out asks, "what is your timing for tonight? Still 8:30?" I guess he is asking because he will be "on duty" with our D all day. He didn't ask me to come home early. But it seemed like that is what he wanted. (He can't come out and ask me but I thought he was being passive aggressive). Am I supposed to offer?? Doing a 180 would mean NOT offering, and putting my own plans and time first. But I can't tell if that makes him resentful or not? I am so confused as to the right thing to do.

Feedback, please! !


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Hi Claire,
First, I know it's tough, but you have to accept that even if your Mil loves you like a daughter, her allegiance is always going to be with her son. Try not to take any of what she's doing personally as she's just trying to navigate how to love her son even while he's making bad choices. Let your H have her on his team and concentrate on getting support from elsewhere right now.

Second, about the babysitter thing. If he was willing to change his work arrangements to work from your house, there is no reason you can't also be flexible on the schedule and offer to come home earlier in the future. The babysitter messed up his plans (to go in to work) so it's not a weakness or flaw to also pitch in and change your plans if you are able to help out.


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That is a helpful perspective, thanks.

The thing that is killing me these days is his "no hard feelings" attitude. In emails, he does not show anger to me, but also no real interest or any affection. He is being generous and nice, but totally emotionally detached. So my DB changes are having no positive impact on our R-- it's just for me and he is done. That makes me sad. I DO have hard feelings! How can I not?


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Originally Posted By: claire7

But two things: for the most part he still acts quite grumpy around me, even when my attitude is upbeat, as if just the thought of being around me--even if I am happy-- makes him miserable.


You do it for you, not for him. Are you addressing the depression you mentioned in your OP? DB'ing is all about fixing ourselves, making ourselves into "the spouse only a fool would leave". Acting "as if" has its purpose, but if you're still depressed underneath then your H will see "as if" as a trick to get him back. What detaching means is that YOU are responsible for your own feelings and you can be happy (and not just acting like it) regardless of his mood.

Quote:
He didn't ask me to come home early. But it seemed like that is what he wanted. (He can't come out and ask me but I thought he was being passive aggressive). Am I supposed to offer??


Absolutely not. In fact, you don't know what he was thinking or why. The above is just mind-reading, don't do it.

Quote:
Doing a 180 would mean NOT offering, and putting my own plans and time first. But I can't tell if that makes him resentful or not? I am so confused as to the right thing to do.


We were all there in the beginning- worrying about how our spouse would respond to anything we say or do. The fact he is DONE with the M. No one thing you say or do is going to change that. You are on a marathon, not a sprint. Work on yourself, quit worrying about what he's thinking, quit worrying about how you're affecting him. Make YOU the best you that you can be. When you get there, maybe he'll be attracted back to you. That's the core principal of DB'ing- you can affect a change in others by changing yourself. Be happy, independent, strong and sexy again. That makes you attractive, even to your WAS.


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Originally Posted By: claire7
for the most part he still acts quite grumpy around me, even when my attitude is upbeat, as if just the thought of being around me--even if I am happy-- makes him miserable.


His misery is NOT related to you, although it may feel like that and he may make out that your the cause of it but the truth is that his misery is with HIMSELF because he's so confused and has no idea what he wants. If he can blame his feelings on you and your M then that means him walking away is the right decision & will make him happy, that isn't necessarily the case though & he'll realise that in his own time.

Keep on being happy & upbeat, do it for YOU!

Quote:
Am I supposed to offer?? Doing a 180 would mean NOT offering, and putting my own plans and time first. But I can't tell if that makes him resentful or not? I am so confused as to the right thing to do.


You can't do things based on his reaction! We ALL do that in the beginning because we are so desperate not the make the situation any worse so please don't take this as a criticism but the quicker you stop worrying about his feelings the better it will be for you - he isn't worrying about your feelings right now is he so you need to do that & protect yourself.

Have you read the Divorce Remedy? What have you been doing for YOU to get yourself a life? You need to be be the best you that you can be, be attractive and confident, show your H what he's walking away from but most importantly do it for yourself so you can get through this regardless of what happens in your M.

Right now it seems impossible, I was there not long ago myself, but it is possible and it has AMAZING results for your confidence and self-esteem if you listen to the advice of the wonderful people here smile good luck, keep up the good work!


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Originally Posted By: Upwards

His misery is NOT related to you, although it may feel like that and he may make out that your the cause of it but the truth is that his misery is with HIMSELF because he's so confused and has no idea what he wants. If he can blame his feelings on you and your M then that means him walking away is the right decision & will make him happy, that isn't necessarily the case though & he'll realise that in his own time.

Keep on being happy & upbeat, do it for YOU!


Thank you for this great perspective. Yes, I agree-- he is in some way conflicted, but he has no imagination and can't believe that things could ever change. He thinks this is his only option, and his own experience with divorced parents tells him that it's not such a big deal.

What's been so hard about this is that just as I am addressing the anxiety and depression that have impacted my life for years, I must do that without the support of my spouse, or his family and friends whom I have become so close to in the last 8 years. And I have to do that healing while also learning to be a single parent, and deal with the reality of my new situation.

And yet, I am doing all that-- reconnecting with old friends, healing my relationship with my own family, learning how strong and resilient I actually am. That feels great and allows me to cut myself some slack for not becoming a completely new, perfect person overnight.


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Progress!! Finally allowed myself to watch the last few episodes of How I Met Your Mother (a show we used to watch together) and I'm not crying! Wow. Going to mediation meeting tomorrow strong and confident!


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I have been reluctant to post for a bit. I am nervous that my H or someone I know will discover this, but I guess that is a risk we all take.

Anyway, I've been doing all my DB'ing (LRT-ville over here)-- not initiating contact, being very positive, GAL. And while there have been some positive changes in our dynamic (he actually apologized for something he said to me recently, even though I didn't act mad or upset (and I certainly didn't say anything about it!).

He emailed me about a tax issue-- he proposed a small change in the way we pay something-- but wrote he was assured by the accountant that it would have no adverse impact on me financially if we file separately next year. He says he was concerned about that, but feels confident it won't affect me. He's offered to babysit our daughter so that I can stay out "as late as I want" even though he doesn't live here.

But at the same time, he seems so at ease and at peace with his decision. He's even said to me he has no anger towards me. He seems to think this can just be a very amicable split, we'll have a great relationship (helping each other out as friends might, even though we are far from friends in the sense that we are not involved in each others' lives at all). He cares about me, he thinks I've handled all of this "remarkably" well, he's proud of all the progress I've made and so happy for me. But still won't let himself believe that he has any other choice.

It's so mystifying and infuriating. All the effort of going through a divorce-- figuring out the settlement (months-long, and big expense), new apartment and furnishings, the effect on our daughter... all of that is worth it to him, he still sees it as his only option. Sigh. It's hard to have hope. It feels like a done deal. And if that's true, he'll just get to walk away thinking that I'm ok with it. SIGH.


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Claire,

I'm sorry you find yourself here. I just want to ask something.....did your h really say he would babysit? I know some may argue semantics but my h has used that term and he means it. H views out kids as " responsibilities and obligations" and he wants neither now. Sorry. Just had to ask if your h actually referred to it that way.

Keep the focus on you. Yes, I know that's easier said than done. However, keep doing what you are doing for YOU!



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Originally Posted By: Georgiabelle
\did your h really say he would babysit?


I don't totally get your question. D is still with me every night. H comes over to spend time with her several days/week. When he comes after work, he puts her to bed and I come home after she is in bed. He offered to stay as long as I would like so that I could go out if I wanted. (D would be asleep). The other night, I asked him to stay a bit later than our agreed upon time. He said he couldn't, but apologized via text that night, and then sent an email the next day apologizing again. I guess he feels some guilt, but that is not enough to get him to reconsider.


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Claire,

I know some may not get this. However, you don't babysit your own child. It's your job. And if a parent actually refers to it that way, that's a bigger issue.

Be pleasant. However, your h is trying to lull you into "isn't this great?" Don't take the bait. Focus on you and your child.



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Oh, I see what you are saying. So, I guess he did not use the word babysit. It is tricky-- it has been nearly six months and she has not yet stayed with him overnight at his apartment (he was subletting but has has his own place for about six weeks. So, he spends time with her at my home, and our agreed upon schedule is that I will come home at 8:30.

So.... technically it is "my" time according to our schedule. This is all so tricky. I should just hire a babysitter...


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I'm not sure if I missed it or not, but did you read the DB or DR books?


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Yes I've read parts of DR. And I've spoken with a coach. I think I'm generally doing what I'm supposed to (I.e. not much with regards to my H, but lots in regards to ME...), but he is so g-d nice about it all, it's frustrating. He is trying to assuage his guilt or make it so that the damage is minimized. You know what would minimize the damage?? Committing to working on our relationship!

And even though I am being confident, strong, detached, and he still seems sad and tells me he doesn't feel well half the time, he is still moving forward with separation-- talking about me buying him out of the house, and other future plans for our D (preschool, vacation), without me.


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Originally Posted By: Georgiabelle
Claire,

I know some may not get this. However, you don't babysit your own child. It's your job. And if a parent actually refers to it that way, that's a bigger issue.

Be pleasant. However, your h is trying to lull you into "isn't this great?" Don't take the bait. Focus on you and your child.


This ^^^

WAS standard operating behavior. Do not trust him with any financial decisions. At all. They like to feather their nests while they can before dropping the final bomb.
I'm glad you have a separation in the works. Finish that up, pronto. Protect yourself and child first.

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Actually you should read all of DR rather than parts here and there. It seems like you've concentrated so much on your H that you haven't written out what your goals and actions are to change your interactions with him.


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Mr. Bond,
I see your point. I have spoken with a coach who told me to skip right to the LRT. I also read the first chapter. I have stated some goals with my coach and some action steps, as well as what a small success would look like. I am also in IC and addressing my mental health issues completely. But I will read the whole book and do the exercises.

Our interactions actually have changed quite a bit. Since I've let go of my anger and detached things are better between us. He has noticed changes in me but still doesn't seem to think there is a future for us (I don't actually know what he is thinking because there has been no R talk for a couple months.)

I wonder now (though I'm trying not to obsess) if he just thinks this will all be la la la like Gwyneth Paltrow and Chris Martin-- "we tried everything and couldn't make it work but we still love each other and are great friends blah blah blah". I do NOT feel that way. If he is incapable of making the changes he needs to make for our M, that is his choice or weakness, but if we get D, it will not be because *I* failed to make the changes I need to make. And i want him to know that. I will be the woman only a fool would walk away from...


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My h actually used that reference the " consciously uncoupling" on social media. It's a lie and well , at this point honesty is just a word in the dictionary to my h. However, don't worry about what your h thinks. I know it's painful, however as difficult as this is , it's imperative to keep a sense of humor.

Don't worry that he seems happy. Take care of your and your child. Focus on what makes you happy.



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I had a thought last night. .. I am doing all this work on myself, making positive changes, but I don't see him doing the same.

Ex: last night I asked him about parent schedule for upcoming holiday-- we still share the car so it gets tricky. He got all bent out of shape, lecturing me--"well how were you planning to do that? I can't even see how you would do that?" Kind of aggressively, and definitely not in a problem-solving, calm way. I know now that he has his own anxieties (I could never really see that before because I was always consumed with my own fears), but I guess what I'm trying to figure out now is... do I even want to be with this man anymore? He does not seem very capable of self-reflection or growth, definitely lacks empathy. I'm not really sure if he is capable of change.

So, do I just wash my hands of it, grieve for the loss of the marriage, family, friends, vision of the future and move on? How do I set a goal of "reconciling" if I am not interested in reconciling unless he changes? I can't control what he does, and I don't want to be with him unless he can address his side of it.

He complained that I pulled away-- didn't make him feel loved. He is right. But he is still exhibiting the behaviors that caused me to pull away.

Good thing I am talking to coach this week. Looks like I need it!


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Claire,

You can't make your h work on himself. That's his decision. The reality is that some people are unwilling to be honest about their flaws and put in the effort to make changes. That's why DBing is for you. You can only control your behavior and actions.

Perhaps some will disagree, however your h said you pulled away. Maybe you did. However, it could be projection as he has done the same thing. Again, make changes for you. Maybe he sees them and maybe he doesn't. No one action is going to turn this around. Focus on being happy with it without him. Maybe you decide of he is unwilling to work on himself that you don't want to rebuild your R. That's okay too.



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"I am doing all this work on myself, making positive changes, but I don't see him doing the same. "

So? The changes you're doing are for you . NOT HIM. This is still control on your part.


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Yes, Mr. Bond. A very helpful and important reminder.


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Ok, so I'm trying my hardest to DB-- detach, be strong, etc. etc. And yet I keep running into situations where I'm totally not sure of how to respond. A running thread in our marriage was my feeling like there was some double standard-- he held me to expectations to which he did not hold himself, but always somehow rationalized that the situations were totally different.

So, tonight, here is the example: He is taking D to see his family for a holiday this evening. On the way out, he asks, "If she is asleep in car when we get back, should i just call you to come out and get her?" (Context: We live in a city, so we have to find parking on the street which can be tricky sometimes.)

Tomorrow, I will be in the same situation (driving D back home by myself at night; she may be asleep in car.) However, I'll have to find parking on my own, and get us and our stuff back into the apartment alone. He doesn't live here. Why is it ok for him to expect me to help him?!?! I won't have that luxury.

So, what do I do? Do I give him a reality check by saying, "Tomorrow I won't have any help when I get home, so you should figure it out by yourself tonight."? (He won't care. It won't make me seem attractive). Do I just smile and say, "Of course I'll help you. No problem." and quietly think under my breath that I am strong and he is weak, instead of resenting him for not having to deal with the same reality of the situation as me? Be the person only a fool would leave, and think "Good riddance" if he turns out to be a fool?

I think I know the answer to this one, but I hate hate hate that he doesn't seem to feel all the consequences of his decision to leave the M. So in his mind, D seems pretty good and co-parenting seems pretty easy. If I do refuse to help him, how do I say so in a DBing way without sounding like a petty B*%#h?

Thanks.


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He may not be feeling the same consequences that you are but he WILL feel the consequences, if not right now then later on.

This particular situation I'd personally let go, your emotion is what's driving you (anger, frustration, resentment) and not your head - you need to choose your battles carefully, have you read the DR book I can't remember if you have?

I know it's sooo hard but try to keep the focus on YOU and not him, every time you think of him try to bring the focus back to yourself & your D.


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Originally Posted By: Upwards
He may not be feeling the same consequences that you are but he WILL feel the consequences, if not right now then later on.


Thanks. I think about this a lot. He believes that a D will have no negative impact on our daughter because he believes that his own parents' D (WA father) had no negative impact on him. Yet, he is much, much closer with his M than his F. And has no relationship with his SM or her 4 kids, even though his dad left his mom for SM when he was very young and has been married to her for over 30 years. He truly believes that the situations are not similar. I'm sure he believes that he won't be like his F. And that is enough to make him feel like D is the right choice.

I just have to let go, I know.

Is he delusional? Or am I??


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I don't get how you say it's a double standard. I mean he doesn't live with you so it's not like he can go out to the car in the first place. It would be a double standard if you dropped her off at his place and he refused to help.

It just sounds like you are finding things to be angry at him for.


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Originally Posted By: claire7
Ok, so I'm trying my hardest to DB-- detach, be strong, etc. etc. And yet I keep running into situations where I'm totally not sure of how to respond. A running thread in our marriage was my feeling like there was some double standard-- he held me to expectations to which he did not hold himself, but always somehow rationalized that the situations were totally different.

So, tonight, here is the example: He is taking D to see his family for a holiday this evening. On the way out, he asks, "If she is asleep in car when we get back, should i just call you to come out and get her?" (Context: We live in a city, so we have to find parking on the street which can be tricky sometimes.)


Tomorrow, I will be in the same situation (driving D back home by myself at night; she may be asleep in car.) However, I'll have to find parking on my own, and get us and our stuff back into the apartment alone. He doesn't live here. Why is it ok for him to expect me to help him?!?! I won't have that luxury.

So, what do I do? Do I give him a reality check by saying, "Tomorrow I won't have any help when I get home, so you should figure it out by yourself tonight."? (He won't care. It won't make me seem attractive). Do I just smile and say, "Of course I'll help you. No problem." and quietly think under my breath that I am strong and he is weak, instead of resenting him for not having to deal with the same reality of the situation as me? Be the person only a fool would leave, and think "Good riddance" if he turns out to be a fool?

I think I know the answer to this one, but I hate hate hate that he doesn't seem to feel all the consequences of his decision to leave the M. So in his mind, D seems pretty good and co-parenting seems pretty easy. If I do refuse to help him, how do I say so in a DBing way without sounding like a petty B*%#h?

Thanks.

claire...my W did the same things for years. I was expexted to show up in the driveway to help her unhitch the horse trailer or unpack groceries. She did not return the favor. Sometimes she would even sit and watch me carry the food in while she talked on the phone and asked me to be more quiet so as not to interupt her. Part of the drill when you spouse is self centered. IMO do not help him. Tell him to bring D in.


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"If she is asleep in car when we get back, should i just call you to come out and get her?" (Context: We live in a city, so we have to find parking on the street which can be tricky sometimes.)"

Hi, just read this and I see this as more about your D than your H. What's best for her?


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Originally Posted By: MrBond
I don't get how you say it's a double standard. I mean he doesn't live with you so it's not like he can go out to the car in the first place. It would be a double standard if you dropped her off at his place and he refused to help.

It just sounds like you are finding things to be angry at him for.


Could be. I have been guilty of that. However, he definitely lacks empathy (that was an issue in our M), so part of what makes me angry is that he doesn't seem to understand exactly what you said-- he doesn't live with his D anymore... therefore when I bring her home tomorrow night, I will have to find a place to park and carry her and whatever stuff we have in all by myself. Whereas he can just call me to run out and get her, and he'll be on his merry way.

Maybe it's just harder to not be driven by emotions on a holiday. I basically have ceased to exist to his extended family. Hard to not be sad about that-- thinking about what I am missing out on tonight, including time with my daughter, watching her play with her cousins, etc.


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"Whereas he can just call me to run out and get her, and he'll be on his merry way."

That's not really what you posted. You posted a QUESTION that he asked you. You just chose to see it as him being unsympathetic on purpose. You just said it's hard to find parking. You are the one who chooses to be angry and have built up alot of resentment.

" I have been guilty of that. However, he definitely lacks empathy (that was an issue in our M), so part of what makes me angry is that he doesn't seem to understand exactly what you said"

Could this just be because the two of you didn't know how to CORRECTLY communicate with each other? It happens alot in marriages and let's face it, there was probably alot of mindreading on both your parts. You EXPECTED him to act a certain way or do certain things and then when he didn't, you would get upset and then he would get upset back, etc.

Learning how to communicate correctly is one of the keys to successful relationships.


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Originally Posted By: MrBond

That's not really what you posted. You posted a QUESTION that he asked you. You just chose to see it as him being unsympathetic on purpose. You just said it's hard to find parking. You are the one who chooses to be angry and have built up alot of resentment.

Could this just be because the two of you didn't know how to CORRECTLY communicate with each other? It happens alot in marriages and let's face it, there was probably alot of mindreading on both your parts. You EXPECTED him to act a certain way or do certain things and then when he didn't, you would get upset and then he would get upset back, etc.

Learning how to communicate correctly is one of the keys to successful relationships.


Thanks, Mr Bond. Yes, this is definitely true. We definitely had communication problems. I was sensitive and insecure, he would get defensive, it was a mess. I have taken responsibility for my role in our problems. I did that immediately upon BD, and have specifically articulated and apologized for my role. I even think we needed to separate for a bit to "reset" ourselves if there was to be any hope for our marriage. I know that I wouldn't have made the progress I've made if we hadn't separated. The difference is that I believe with all my heart that our relationship is very, very fixable. He just doesn't see it that way.

I have been working really hard on taking things he says at face value and not reading it through a lens that would make me angry or upset.

I post here to get perspective. I don't want to get defensive. So, I appreciate the reality check. And in response to labug above, what is best for my D is if I come out and get her. I suppose, too, that if I end up having trouble tomorrow I could call him to ask for help and see what his response would be. He doesn't live too far away, though he may not be home. But who knows, maybe he would be happy to help me in return. Or, I will just park in an illegal spot and if we get a ticket, so be it. Or maybe the neighbors can help. This was a good reminder that it's only stressful if I *choose* to feel stressed about it. (Working on the anxiety issues...)

Thanks.


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Originally Posted By: claire7
Originally Posted By: MrBond

That's not really what you posted. You posted a QUESTION that he asked you. You just chose to see it as him being unsympathetic on purpose. You just said it's hard to find parking. You are the one who chooses to be angry and have built up alot of resentment.

Could this just be because the two of you didn't know how to CORRECTLY communicate with each other? It happens alot in marriages and let's face it, there was probably alot of mindreading on both your parts. You EXPECTED him to act a certain way or do certain things and then when he didn't, you would get upset and then he would get upset back, etc.

Learning how to communicate correctly is one of the keys to successful relationships.


Thanks, Mr Bond. Yes, this is definitely true. We definitely had communication problems. I was sensitive and insecure, he would get defensive, it was a mess. I have taken responsibility for my role in our problems. I did that immediately upon BD, and have specifically articulated and apologized for my role. I even think we needed to separate for a bit to "reset" ourselves if there was to be any hope for our marriage. I know that I wouldn't have made the progress I've made if we hadn't separated. The difference is that I believe with all my heart that our relationship is very, very fixable. He just doesn't see it that way.

I have been working really hard on taking things he says at face value and not reading it through a lens that would make me angry or upset.

I post here to get perspective. I don't want to get defensive. So, I appreciate the reality check. And in response to labug above, what is best for my D is if I come out and get her. I suppose, too, that if I end up having trouble tomorrow I could call him to ask for help and see what his response would be. He doesn't live too far away, though he may not be home. But who knows, maybe he would be happy to help me in return. Or, I will just park in an illegal spot and if we get a ticket, so be it. Or maybe the neighbors can help. This was a good reminder that it's only stressful if I *choose* to feel stressed about it. (Working on the anxiety issues...)

Thanks.


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Ignore my last post my phone went crazy!!!

Originally Posted By: MrBond
Learning how to communicate correctly is one of the keys to successful relationships.

So true! Even by improving my own communication skills alone it's helped my situation a lot! Amazing how just listening or changing a few words can have such a drastic impact!

Quote:
The difference is that I believe with all my heart that our relationship is very, very fixable. He just doesn't see it that way.

He can't see it that way at the moment, the only way he will see it that way if he's going to is in his own space & time. Nothing you say will help or make him see it the way you see it (believe me I tried earlier on!!). That's why it's SO important you focus on you & your D and try to leave your H to it as much as you can, detach!


Quote:
This was a good reminder that it's only stressful if I *choose* to feel stressed about it. (Working on the anxiety issues...)

EXACTLY!! Great you can come on here & find perspective smile


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^^^ great stuff. In looking back at my post to you earlier, I'm not sure my situation and yours with regards to this are the same. Nice to see you reason through what you need.


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Originally Posted By: labug
"If she is asleep in car when we get back, should i just call you to come out and get her?" (Context: We live in a city, so we have to find parking on the street which can be tricky sometimes.)"

Hi, just read this and I see this as more about your D than your H. What's best for her?


THIS^^^^.....what is best for HER?


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Also please don't get wrapped up in whether he sees you "accepting" this as meaning it's fine.

He KNOWS you do not want this. He knows it! And believe me, you being miserable or needy in front of him, or towards him, won't make him miss you more.


He is unhappy himself (depressed even) AND does not trust your changes will last and therefore, if he were to come back, nye fears you'd revert and things would be bad again.

consistent changes + sufficient time = change he can believe in.

Keep at it.


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25yearsmlc, thank you for the great reminders. Just to update-- he found parking right out front and brought her to the door. A quick, easy exchange. So all my worry and resentment was for nothing, and I'm so glad I was able to get support from this forum to remind me to just let it go.

Then, yesterday, on my day, we had a busy morning (playdate with a friend that included painting, dyeing Easter eggs, and lunch), then I got both of us dressed and ready and drove over an hour in the rain to see my family. Was raining even harder on the way home. My brother came with me, which eased my anxiety (I actually wasn't anxious on the way home, even though the road conditions were pretty bad). I pulled into a tight spot right out front, and carried my 32 lb sack of sleeping potatoes, and our stuff, into the apartment, in the pouring rain, without an umbrella all by myself.

And he sent me an email yesterday telling me that he's noticed how strong and brave I've been, and how that is in stark contrast to how he has been (he admitted he was too scared to come in to say hello to my family the other day), and he hopes I feel proud of how I've been dealing with everything. And also that he has a fever and stayed home from work and will have to miss his scheduled time with our D.

I am a bada$$. I am confident, capable and strong. And I'm reaching the point where I feel like only a fool would leave me.
Thanks for all the great advice. This forum has been really helpful to me.


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Oh, also... how do I respond to the email giving me compliments for handling our situation so well and saying that in many ways I've handled it better than he has??? Do I respond? I am letting myself sit on it for a couple of days. Thinking of saying, "Yes, I do feel quite confident and proud. Thank you for the kind words."

After pursuing, shaming, trying to convince him of how wrong he was for the first two-three months, I pretty much completely backed off. I want to show him that I am moving in a positive direction with or without him. That it's not a trick to get him back. The truth is, the changes *needed* to happen, and in a way I am thankful that he jolted me into it. I don't think I would have reached this level of stability and self-confidence otherwise.

I want him to see that I am releasing a lot of my anger (I actually feel more pity for him-- in some ways he is having a much harder time than I am, because he seems to be carrying some guilt around, which I am not). But it also feels too soon to be anything more than casually friendly with him, even though he is opening up a tiny bit. I tried so hard at first to get him to change his mind and it was so misdirected. I don't want to push him away again.


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Oh, also... how do I respond to the email giving me compliments for handling our situation so well and saying that in many ways I've handled it better than he has??? Do I respond? I am letting myself sit on it for a couple of days. Thinking of saying, "Yes, I do feel quite confident and proud. Thank you for the kind words."

Changes are for you, and its great he can see that. You dont need to respond, create mistery around it, let him continue to see the changes despite how he reacts towards them.

You are a new you in a path to a better life, if he wants to be around he is going to have to show more than a few compliments wink

Say thank you to God not to him, God thank you for helping me in this changes and thank you for taking care of H and showing him how to be more healthy!!


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Originally Posted By: claire7
Oh, also... how do I respond to the email giving me compliments for handling our situation so well and saying that in many ways I've handled it better than he has??? Do I respond? I am letting myself sit on it for a couple of days. Thinking of saying, "Yes, I do feel quite confident and proud. Thank you for the kind words."

You want to listen without defending and speak without offending. AND you want to show change on your part, so you handle this with those goals. B/C he won't return to the marriage unless he believes the marriage can be better/different than before.

And that will only happen (in his mind) when YOU CHANGE...

(and yes, later on comes his time, but that's not your job and now is not the time for mentioning it)


After pursuing, shaming, trying to convince him of how wrong he was for the first two-three months, I pretty much completely backed off. I want to show him that I am moving in a positive direction with or without him. That it's not a trick to get him back. The truth is, the changes *needed* to happen, and in a way I am thankful that he jolted me into it. I don't think I would have reached this level of stability and self-confidence otherwise.

This^^^ is absolutely true and shows great insights!


I want him to see that I am releasing a lot of my anger (I actually feel more pity for him-- in some ways he is having a much harder time than I am, because he seems to be carrying some guilt around, which I am not).

The issue about anger is not "whether" you "Should" feel it...it's likely very justified. The issue is, what do you DO with the anger? Does it further your goal or obstruct it?

It's rare that showing anger to a WAS helps anyone. Usually it validates their decision to leave....You're smart & healthy to rid yourself of that anger...

As for the guilt, it's the big BIG reason I'd never want to be a WAS...I would not trade places with them for anything. I see the consequences now, years later, of my h's choices and the damage to his r's with the kids. He still feels alienated all these years later. It takes a toll. We are all seeing a family therapist now. So yes, it does get to them eventually. I won't ever envy them.


But it also feels too soon to be anything more than casually friendly with him, even though he is opening up a tiny bit. I tried so hard at first to get him to change his mind and it was so misdirected. I don't want to push him away again.


Agreed.

There's very little downside to taking it S L O W L Y....but a huge downside to rushing things or taking them too fast....

A little mystery would be a good thing, as well as recalling the DB guidelines assembled & posted by Sandi...With a few additions here & there.

Good luck!


1.Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! This turns the spouse completely off!

2. No frequent phone calls to spouse.......let him/her be the one to call you. Then don't try to hang on to your spouse through conversation.....instead, you say good-bye first.

3. Do not point out good points in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage books, look at your M pictures, etc. Especially, do not get him/her to read the DB/DR book. That is for you only!

4. Do not follow your spouse around the house like a puppy dog trying to get his/her time and attention.

5. Do not encourage talk about the future. They don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, so stay clear of that subject.

6. Do not ask for help from family members or friends. Don't discuss private matters with them that would upset your spouse.


7. Do not ask for reassurances (That is showing neediness and being clingy.) Show self-respect and self confidence.

8. Do not buy gifts to make "brownie points". (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)

9. Do not schedule dates together at this point. (That is pursuing.) Save for later when the R is much better.

10. Do not spy on spouse by checking emails, phone bills, etc. (Not good for you and will make matters worse.)

11. Do not say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to make your spouse say it back to you......he/she will despise you for it.)

12. Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude.

13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times! In other words, be the best you can be and look the best you can look at all times. Even when wearing jeans and T-shirt, wear good cologne, b/c it does cause the spouse to take notice.


14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse to see what kind of mood he/she is in or what he/she is going to do or say – get busy, think of things to do. Go to church, go out with friends, etc. in order to get a life for yourself without waiting on your wife/husband.....but it is okay to invite them, just don't act as if it will change your plans if they do or don't go.

15. When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce or with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing" and have a pleasant expression on your face. Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class. This does not mean to act like you aren’t speaking, but don’t be overly talkative.

16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK THEM NOTHING!! No matter what time he/she comes home! You are giving them space and asking no questions! You enjoy your time with your kids, friends, etc. Remember, you are getting a life, also.

17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.


18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!) This is important! If you do, then you have blown it.

19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. This can confuse some of them b/c it is not what they expected. Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around all the time, somebody that can be attractive and fun to be with. That somebody is you! Don't overkill in your attempts to outshine another person your spouse may be having an A with (if there is OP in the picture) to the point of looking like your attempts are "fake" b/c your spouse will see through all of that.

20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while) so this takes patience on your behalf.

21. Never lose your cool! Don't let your spouse trap you into a fight. Don't take her/his bait.....leave the room or the house for a while, if you have to, in order to avoid a fight.

22. Don't be overly enthusiastic, don't over-kill; in anything you do b/c it will come across as fake.

23. Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.) Only they know how they feel!

24. Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels opposite of what you want to do, but it works!

25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Do not interrupt them when they are speaking and stop what you may be working on to look at them when they talk. This shows them that you really care about what they are saying.

26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out (or scream and yell). Sometimes the right thing to say is nothing.

27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil). This is for your health's sake.

28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. Read self help books, inspirational books or listen to tapes. They are for you only.

29. Know that if you can do 180's, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.

30. Do not be openly show that you are "desperate" or "needy" even when you are hurting more than ever and truly feel desperate and needy. This is a large turn-off for your spouse.

31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse, instead, focus on them.

32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because he/she is hurting and scared.

33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.

34. Do not ask your spouse if he/she has noticed your changes. Those changes are for you and for the rest of your life...with or without your spouse. If it is just to get your spouse back...they won't last and the same problems will return.

35. Do not send several TM's or emails throughout the day unless absolutely necessary.

36. It is best to stay away from the bar scenes where other problems easily arise.

37. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes.

38. Know that in time, you really will be happy again, regardless of your spouse’s choices. Know this, believe it, and let it show.

39. Do not believe that showing your spouse your pain and misery proves your love for them. It just makes it harder to be around you.

40. Don’t worry about how the past is viewed. What matters is this day and “from this day forward.” Learn to let go of the past and what you cannot control. It’s a lot to let go of, but it is freeing.


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claire7 Offline OP
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25 and others--
I have so appreciated all the great advice. I think I am doing a decent job of detaching (took me a few months, but I got there), and starting to move on with my life.

But now...I really need some help with learning how to validate. Here's the story: The schedule has been that H comes over M, W, Th mornings before work 7 am (I have to leave by 7:15, and our babysitter's schedule has always been 7:30). He also comes Sat morning at 7 and spends the day with D on Saturdays from 7-3:30 pm. He also comes M and F after work (5-8:30), and Sunday evening 3:30-8:30.

He emailed me to say that this schedule is leaving him feeling exhausted. He wants to "be fair" to me, and spend time with D, but feels like he wants to cut it down to 3 mornings a week instead of 4, and come this Saturday at 8 instead of 7.

He says he doesn't want my sympathy, but just wants to explain that he is struggling with the schedule.

This is the cliff's notes version, so feel free to ask clarifying questions. But.. please help me figure out how to validate/empathize and respond appropriately, when what I really want to say is: "You POS, you BD and left me just as I was starting to work on major anxiety and depression issues, after not supporting me enough emotionally when I had PPD, and you seem to be completely incapable of understanding how your choice to abandon our marriage has completely uprooted my life, left me scared for my financial future, and made my life much more complicated and difficult. This was your choice! This is what you wanted! You don't want me to be your partner! Darn straight this is hard to do alone! Deal with it!"

I know I can't say that. But I have no idea what I am supposed to say. How do I validate/empathize without being a doormat?? (He's tired so he gets to just release himself from childcare responsibility?? Um, I'm pretty tired, too.) Oh, and to add to my frustration, while he says he is so exhausted, he's also asked me to take his Sunday evening time so that he can go out to a special event with a guy from work.

I am trying so hard to be someone only a fool would walk away from... and most days I feel pretty great about my progress. But this is hard for me too. I'm tired, and I didn't sign up to do this parenting thing alone. I am so angry and sad that he has put us all in this situation.

Please help!
Thanks.


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How about something like

"H, I certainly understand the fatigue factor and I certainly understand the hassle factors involved in getting kids up and ready for the day, then going to work and then coming home, and still having to raise our kids. And I definitely know how hard it is do alone...so let's see what we can work out so we both are better able to manage our time and division of labor. Should we hire an additional someone to assist us?"

PROBLEM SOLVE WITH HIM AS AN EQUAL. Seek out his advice to resolve this.

This demonstrates conflict resolution in a way that you both probably have not done in some time. And it shows change in you.

Make sense?


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Validation means that you validate how he "feels" not how he "acts". Understand and sympathize that he has a right to feel the way he does even though you don't agree with the actions that he's doing.


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claire7 Offline OP
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25yearsmlc: I think I get what you are saying. We all have to adjust to this new situation, and I can either judge him/shame him/throw it in his face, or be someone only a fool would walk away from and handle it in a mature, collaborative way. This is my new reality, and I can't change this reality overnight, so I have to handle it as the best "me" possible.

There is definitely a part of me that worries that this fuels his vision of "won't it be so wonderful to be divorced from her. See, she'll be a great co-parent with me. This is definitely the right call.". In many ways I think he is seeing what life after divorce is like-- and he doesn't seem to love it-- so when I am fine with picking up the slack and saving him from the hard parts, I worry a bit that it reassures him that it won't be so bad after all.

Oh boy. Just when I think I was making such great progress. Sigh!

Ok-- I think I figured out my takeaways: VALIDATE how he feels-- he feels how he feels, and he has a right to feel that way. And I don't have to be a doormat and roll over to every request. I can assert myself ("How can we problem-solve this together, in a way that feels equitable and reasonable for both of us?") without being nasty.

THANK YOU!


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Originally Posted By: claire7
25yearsmlc: I think I get what you are saying. We all have to adjust to this new situation, and I can either judge him/shame him/throw it in his face, or be someone only a fool would walk away from and handle it in a mature, collaborative way. This is my new reality, and I can't change this reality overnight, so I have to handle it as the best "me" possible.

There is definitely a part of me that worries that this fuels his vision of "won't it be so wonderful to be divorced from her. See, she'll be a great co-parent with me. This is definitely the right call.". In many ways I think he is seeing what life after divorce is like-- and he doesn't seem to love it-- so when I am fine with picking up the slack and saving him from the hard parts, I worry a bit that it reassures him that it won't be so bad after all.

we all told ourselves things like this^^ b/c we FEEL bad and we hate acting. We think it 'enables" them to leave us guilt free (as if guilt is a loving goal).

But the thing is, your choice is to be miserable in front of him (super fun to be around...NOT) or to guilt him and say "how do you think I FEEL???" which also won't work. OR

you can be pleasant enough (not silly and guffawing in laughter, but HANDLING things) and capable enough that someone can relax around you without fearing your 'needs' will overwhelm them, (and you build on that ability for him to relax around you)

OR you can constantly show your pain.

Given your history of depression in the past, for which you did not take responsibility til recently, to me, that "handling it" capability, is what I'd emphasize.

Not your "continued symptoms of melancholy" EVEN THOUGH you are saying "but wait, I have the RIGHT to feel bad now!!"

We know.

I'm just saying is, how will showing him more negative emotions on your end, help you? I don't believe it will, at all.

AND IF a divorce were really "all fine", with him, that would amaze me. HE won't believe it and already he doesn't believe that. You have seen HIM showing you that it hurts HIM to do this. That confusion on his end IMO is b/c you are confusing him by not falling apart. He's seeing strength in YOU. That is attractive!

Seeing you functioning, is good. It's NOT going to make him think he did the right thing but rather it will give him second thoughts. But Seeing you mope around miserably and blaming him, would make him want to flee.

Choose which you want to model for him; a woman who got her sh!t together, or a woman who fell apart after being on the brink of it, for some time....

Oh boy. Just when I think I was making such great progress. Sigh!

YOU ARE MAKING PROGRESS~!!!


Ok-- I think I figured out my takeaways: VALIDATE how he feels-- he feels how he feels, and he has a right to feel that way.

Ever see a kid cry and hear an adult tell them "you should not cry about that"...? It almost always fails to sway the child. The child FEELS like crying and so he does.

No one telling him he "Should not feel that way" ever helps. Instead we say, "your feelings are hurt/you feel scared" and then we comfort them. All we do as adults when we want to validate IF WE DO NOT AGREE with their take on things is listen to what they say and not argue it. If they revise the marital history too much, you are allowed to say "I don't recall it that way at all, but I"m sorry you were hurt. If I had it to do all over again, there are many things I'd do differently"...

and you can say something similar when he mentions something you DO feel bad about, like "I am sorry that hurt you and if I had it to do over again, that's one of many things I'd do differently"....

both answers show your willingness to change, neither escalates or defends and you are not being a doormat in either scenario.

And I don't have to be a doormat and roll over to every request. I can assert myself ("How can we problem-solve this together, in a way that feels equitable and reasonable for both of us?") without being nasty.

THANK YOU!


Among the biggest problems in marriages today, in MY opinion, is the inability to resolve conflict without someone feeling that they "gave in/LOST" the round. Or won.

Which is why I detest the "Scorekeeping" done by so many. It never helps a marriage.

Problem solving is what teams and colleagues at work do all the time. Strange that it gets so hard to do in our own families.

I think you're doing very well and there is hope. And regardless, YOU are becoming a woman only a fool would leave and that matters A LOT.

You have children watching you and someday when life throws them a big curve ball, they'll recall YOU


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H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
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GROUND HOG DAY
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Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. You are so so so right.

I told him, shortly before he left (things were pretty bad between us at that point) that I had reached my rock bottom in terms of my emotional well-being and I recognized that I couldn't go on living that way any longer. That's when I finally took action to make changes for myself. It was too late for him. But once I started feeling better, a couple of weeks after he left, I told him that I would never go back to that dark place. And I mean that 100%. To me, getting healthy and getting out of the negative space I was in is a life or death proposition. I could not go on living the way I was. He didn't believe the changes would last and told me so. But there is no going back for me.

For a long time, my neediness made him feel like he was contributing much more to the relationship than I was--and he told me so. And maybe that was true, even though I did contribute in important ways. He just couldn't notice it because he didn't feel loved and supported enough. (And his not noticing made me feel unloved and unsupported. Ack, what a horrible dynamic we had!)

Now that I am so much stronger, maybe he will be more able to see the ways that I contribute to the relationship, and that we can have a more equal partnership.

And if he can't, my next partner surely will.

I am so grateful for this forum. It's given me tremendous perspective and confidence.


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Hi Claire - Your feeling sound like mine in soooo many ways - I too struggle with alot of the same thoughts as you - will H think this is great! Look how easy D will be. Look how nice she is being, etc.

It nice to know I'm not the only one thinking this way and its also nice to see some the the reponses above to help move past these thoughts.

25yearsmlc - you are so right. Great perspective! So right!


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Yep I wonder the same girls, I wonder if by me being so AWSOME (lol!) and so understanding, caring etc won't that just confirm to him that things are better this way & that we're better off apart?!

I know these changes are for ME anyway but it is something that's always in the back of my mind... Any input on this from our experienced DB'ers here?


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Not if you stay the same understanding, caring person you are now when/if he returns. If my W were understanding and caring, wow, that would be a big plus to attract me...

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Add me to having the same thoughts. I'm pretty NC but I'm always accomidating and very polite. So weird! I too wonder if I'm making. This just a little too easy.


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claire7 Offline OP
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Luke-- what I worry my H is thinking is something like, "we care about each other, we can be nice and friendly, we maybe even feel love for each other...but we just don't work as a married couple. And the fact that she is doing so great on her own confirms that to me. We are all (including our D) better off apart. And now I don't have to feel so much guilt about it because she is so happy and capable without me."

And I know that being miserable and needy certainly isn't going to win him back. But damn this is frustrating. The changes are for ME. I KNOW. But sometimes I want to bop him on the head and tell him what an idiot he is.

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I echo the bop on the head sentiment...and then some!


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I have the same thoughts:

If I'm strong and confident and act as if this doesn't bother me, then it will just confirm to H that he's made the right decision. He'll think he was right: we just aren't compatible. And the fact that I was able to adjust so easily proves that we aren't right for one another.

If my choices are to be weak and needy or to be strong and confident, I think I've gotta choose strength and confidence. If he ends up using that as justification for his choice, then there really isn't anything I could have done about it anyway.

I do still wish I could get him to snap out of it, but I've finally gotten to the point where I understand that I have no control over that.

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Claire - oh, at some point that will certainly be appropriate -

Look at it this way, if you (like my W) are not nice, not friendly, not understanding, and/or not caring, does that attract or repel him? Sure there is an element of luck here, but you might as well stack the deck.

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Originally Posted By: claire7
But sometimes I want to bop him on the head and tell him what an idiot he is.


We all know he wouldnt listen!! Thats why we have to SHOW them what fools they are being smile that way there is a chance they'll realise themselves!


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Yeah. Feeling pessimistic about that this week. :-( I don't see him ever being willing to stop this D train, even if he wanted to. It would seem too hard for him to swallow all that pride and face me, my friends and family again. Moving on with D will seem like the easiest path, even if he has some reservations about it. He's financially comfortable, he's not very concerned about the impact on our D3, and I don't know that he ever really loved me with all his heart. (I realize I am mind-reading a bit).

Also struggling a little bit with my GAL. I'm definitely reaching out to friends old and new and going out WAY more than I had been, but realizing that I haven't moved forward on making plans for things like Memorial Day, 4th of July, summer vacation... H would always plan those things. His group of friends and family has way more money and means to go away. I just don't have as many friends to do that kind of stuff with, with or without my D3, so I have to be more creative. I'm definitely feeling a bit defeated in that area.

Trying to focus on the positives-- gorgeous day with my D3 today, and meeting a friend for dinner tonight!


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More thoughts bringing me down a bit tonight. Why am I even bothering to hold out any bit of hope? Why do I even want him back? He is moving on from me so easily. I really only have one friend who truly supports DBing. Everyone else just tells me to move on and to he!! with him. I think most of my friends and family, and most of his friends and family, are thinking the same thing-- it's not such a huge loss-- we could both do better. I don't think I'm all that missed on his side. I mean, they think I'm nice enough, no one is angry at me, but I don't think anyone is telling him he is a fool to let me go.

So am I just delusional? Maybe we aren't right for each other after all. Why am I holding on to this marriage? How do you answer that question? Is it that you have such deep love for the person who has told you they don't love you anymore? Or because you value your marriage vows so much? Sometimes I don't have a good answer for why I am not just letting go and giving up. What is yours?


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I sometimes wonder the same thing: why am I trying so hard? My IC (who I no longer see for a multitude of reasons) actually said to me, "Do you really want to be with someone who doesn't love you?" She did not seem to be onboard with my efforts to try to save my M.

Originally Posted By: claire7
He is moving on from me so easily.


This ^^^^^ is mindreading. During one of our R talks (which I'm now doing my best to avoid, I said something like, "You are just out there enjoying your single life." My H responded, immediately and seemingly sincerely, "who says I'm enjoying it?" You don't know that this is easy for him.

I think these second-guessing kind of thoughts are normal. I'm trying to sit with them when they occur. My guess is that if I get to the point that I'm really done, I'll know. So far, these thoughts tend to be fleeting for me.

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Lots of mindreading Claire, try to stick with what you know otherwise your just giving yourself more stuff to get anxious & stressed about. Just because he's giving the impression that he's getting on with is life & doesnt care, doesnt mean thats the case.

Quote:
I haven't moved forward on making plans for things like Memorial Day, 4th of July, summer vacation... H would always plan those things.

A massive 180 would be YOU planning your own things then! It doesnt have to cost lots, there is loads that can be done cheaply or free that i'm sure you & your D would enjoy.

Quote:
So am I just delusional? Maybe we aren't right for each other after all. Why am I holding on to this marriage? How do you answer that question? Is it that you have such deep love for the person who has told you they don't love you anymore? Or because you value your marriage vows so much?

Codependancy can make you feel this way as you are so dependant on that person that you feel like you cant be happy or live your life without them, this is then mistaken for love (i'm not saying this is the case for you, just an example!). Its always a good idea to deal with any codependancy issues early on to uncover what real feelings are underneath. Its like an addiction to a person, you need to be in recovery before you can make rational decisions.

Also fear plays a big part in how the LBS feels. You need to strip back what your feelings and try to get to the root of whats causing it, thats the only way of knowing whats really going on for you.

Quote:
Sometimes I don't have a good answer for why I am not just letting go and giving up. What is yours?

Letting go & giving up are 2 different things. If you want to try and save your marriage you need to let go but not give up hope.

You arent letting go because your not ready to or your scared that letting go is accepting thats its over, there is no shame in that as its not an easy process. People can tell you to as much as they like but there is only you that can make that decision, for me I hit rock bottom & realised that I didnt want our relationship as it was as we were both unhappy & I didnt want my H right now because he needs to work through his issues so I needed to let go, it was a process not something that happens overnight.


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Originally Posted By: Upwards

A massive 180 would be YOU planning your own things then! It doesnt have to cost lots, there is loads that can be done cheaply or free that i'm sure you & your D would enjoy.


Yes, I agree. Working on it. Also working on gaining more confidence in taking her on bigger trips by myself.

Quote:
Also fear plays a big part in how the LBS feels. You need to strip back what your feelings and try to get to the root of whats causing it, thats the only way of knowing whats really going on for you.


For a long time, I was so afraid that he would leave me. I had so much anxiety about keeping our daughter safe--partly because I knew that if something happened to her, there would be nothing keeping us together. (Wow. Sounds pretty terrible!) But now that that great fear has been realized-- and the world has gone on (and I'm actually handling it quite well), I just don't have that fear anymore.

I know that I don't want to go back to how things were. I was not happy in the R. I guess if he was willing to confront his side of things and work on changing himself, then I'd be very willing to do the same. So, I guess at this point it's worth holding out hope for that.

Two questions:
1) Is it at all appropriate to date while you are DBing? (My hunch is NO, you remain committed to the marriage, but I don't know for sure!)
2) How do folks handle birthdays or special occasions of in-laws? My nephews' birthdays are coming up-- do I buy them gifts? From me? From me and D3? From just D3?? I don't want to come across as pitiful or manipulative--is it inappropriate for me to insert myself in their lives now?? I'm pretty positive I won't be invited to their birthday celebrations (my H and D3 will be, though I'm not sure they will even tell me about it beforehand), so will it seem desperate and lame for me to send them a gift on my own?? I miss them. :-(


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Claire - re: your H being too stubborn/not willing to swallow his pride to stop the D train, I completely understand and I worry about the same thing. My H has outright said things like "changing my decision would be a sign of weakness" and "If I change my mind it will be like you won and you made me do it." How I think about that is that if my H is truly so stubborn that he'd rather stick with his decision despite reservations, that that's ultimately not going to be the type of person I want in my life, anyways. And on the hopeful side, they made a decision to marry us, and they changed that, right? So they could very well change their certainty about this decision, too. That's why keeping the road home smooth is important - don't burn too many bridges or reveal too much to friends and family that would have to be "taken back," for example.


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^^^ right! Only 2 of my friends and my parents know. I have no idea who he's told, but that's on him.

And I did have to lay it on the line for each if them that I'm driving this car until the wheels fall off, so please don't bash him. (I honestly don't even talk about it any more- nothing to report! Lol!)

It was actually one of my friends who suggested I don't tell people. It will be hard for them to not want you to feel better ASAP, instead of working through things in time. If one of my friends came to me with the same sitch, I would tell her/him to cut their losses and move on (BEFORE all of this happened, that is wink )

And if your H is making decisions out of pride, he's gonna be miserable down the road. (Mine is doing the same thing).

Hang in there!


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Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
[quote=claire7]25yearsmlc: I think I get what you are saying. We all have...


Hi 25 - your insight on these boards is perhaps even more valuable than the books (sorry!). I think I'm still in some mode (but off of moderation now, yay!) whereby I cannot PM you. I wanted to see if you'd visit my most recent threads (sorry to the OP for that on this thread) and lend your insight. Again, to all, sorry and thanks.

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artsy-- a bit too late for me for that. Oh well. I can only move forward. I've come to my senses though and have stopped talking about it in a one-sided way--I've actually stopped talking about it much at all with most people. (and most people don't ask much anyway).

Bit of journaling-- trying to stay in the positive... Need to show him consistent change. He's brought up a couple of things recently that seem to indicate that he's not 100% convinced that I'm capable of lasting change, at least in regards to my relationship with him. So... instead of feeling defeated when he doesn't respond the way I'd like him to (when I give him a compliment on his parenting, or ask him how he is feeling), I'm trying to just stay the course. Take a breath. The truth is, if I'm really honest with myself, that I am not a completely different person. I've changed in many ways, but the "old" me still creeps in at moments. So I have to be patient with myself, too.

But man do I hate this detached, friendly co-parenting thing. When he writes, "Hey, thanks for that nice note. That was nice to hear," it sounds to me a little bit like I'm glad you are coming around to our new situation. This will make things easier for all of us in the long run. And I'll respond politely, but I won't offer anything back to you that might make you think I'm starting to change my mind. Because I'm not. Just want to be clear on that. But I'm so glad we can be nice to each other through this, because there are no hard feelings. Sometimes things just don't work out and we will all be better off this way, and I'm so glad you are starting to see that, too.

Argh.


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Originally Posted By: claire7
Originally Posted By: Upwards

A massive 180 would be YOU planning your own things then! It doesnt have to cost lots, there is loads that can be done cheaply or free that i'm sure you & your D would enjoy.


Yes, I agree. Working on it. Also working on gaining more confidence in taking her on bigger trips by myself.

Quote:
Also fear plays a big part in how the LBS feels. You need to strip back what your feelings and try to get to the root of whats causing it, thats the only way of knowing whats really going on for you.


For a long time, I was so afraid that he would leave me.


Please READ THIS^^^ and notice... NOTICE that we often bring about the very things we fear, when we let fear decide things for us or affect how we behave and how we treat others or ourselves. Notice this and learn from it.


I had so much anxiety about keeping our daughter safe--partly because I knew that if something happened to her, there would be nothing keeping us together. (Wow. Sounds pretty terrible!) But now that that great fear has been realized-- and the world has gone on (and I'm actually handling it quite well), I just don't have that fear anymore.

I hope you take the lessons from this, that are needed...enough said (right?)

I know that I don't want to go back to how things were. I was not happy in the R.

The old marriage is dead and gone. Let it go as neither of you were happy. It's okay to concede that. It's crazy Not to concede that. AGREE with your h about the need for that marriage, to fade out... nothing to argue about there, is there? So let him see that you get it!


I guess if he was willing to confront his side of things and work on changing himself, then I'd be very willing to do the same.


PLEASE STOP THIS THINKING^^^^...it's a cop out. It's conditional. It is you saying "I will improve ONLY IF I think HE WILL, AND THEN....I'd be very willing to do the same"....why does he have to change anything before you do?

And excuse me, but he is not here trying to save the marriage; You are.

So it's YOU, the LBSer, who takes the first step, and the next step, and the next 309485 steps if needed. Don't count and don't measure.

You do your work in your sandbox and you stay out of his sandbox.
The LAST thing he needs to hear from you is what you'd "be willing to do IF IF IF he..." anything.

Just Do your work. Let him worry about his own. But trust me, if he were to see real lasting deep change IN YOU, he'd want to do the same. FOR HIS SAKE...

B/C seeing someone who is at peace with themselves, content inwardly and outwardly, is someone to emulate.


So, I guess at this point it's worth holding out hope for that.

Well, your changes are for you, remember? Regardless of what he thinks/feels (which you will not know), it's your work to do. Period. It's NOT related to him. Do you see that?


Two questions:
1) Is it at all appropriate to date while you are DBing? (My hunch is NO, you remain committed to the marriage, but I don't know for sure!)

People here, including some DB coaches, vary in their answers. If you are actively SAYING you want to work on the marriage and you are under the same roof, obviously it's a bad idea to date. \

But when separated, there are arguments that go both ways. For ME, a lot depends on who is trying to prove what, and which party (the WAS or the LBS) is the one dating. It's NOT one size fits all but as I said, it'd be different if you were under the same roof, have kids exposed to it (never do that unless you think the R with OM was getting serious) and who the walk away is...

Sometimes, an LBSer who dates, realizes they are not going to be alone the rest of their lives if their spouse does not return AND OR the WAS realizes that the LBSer really is a good catch and only the attention of OMs awakens that realization. IT VARIES...

But I caution you, do not date solely as a tactic to get the spouse to return.

For one thing, it's not fair to the OM/OW who is essentially being used...so honesty is crucial there...and for another, if the reason you date is as a tactic, it usually shows thru in some way. IOW, it fails as a tactic.


2) How do folks handle birthdays or special occasions of in-laws? My nephews' birthdays are coming up-- do I buy them gifts? From me? From me and D3? From just D3?? I don't want to come across as pitiful or manipulative--is it inappropriate for me to insert myself in their lives now??


are you "inserting" or simply remaining in their lives?

Don't drop off the face of the earth. Make it clear that a gift is from you and D3 and then DROP IT and don't wait around acting as if you expect thanks (and some words of encouragement, etc) from them. If it's a GIFT, then give it. No strings/expectations or hopes, attached...make sense? Let them learn to relax around you. NO neediness from you. Your friends and YOUR family are for that, not your h's.


I'm pretty positive I won't be invited to their birthday celebrations (my H and D3 will be, though I'm not sure they will even tell me about it beforehand), so will it seem desperate and lame for me to send them a gift on my own?? I miss them. :-(



IF your d3 is invited and goes with your h, then I assume HE will buy a gift. If not, or if unsure, ASK your h if he wants you to pick the gift up and then send it with him/them....involve yourself in a helpful way but if he says he's got it covered, LET HIM...

Also here is a list of things I did to GAL when I really did not feel like it but knew I HAD to...

I did these when we lived in the interior of Alaska, even in the winter. And I had 3 kids, including an infant (so you know I don't want to hear about how 'you are 'too busy' to GAL).

Inertia is the greatest enemy to GAL. Overcome that, & you'll be well on your way to a happier more fulfilling life. IMO, the more you overcome inertia, the better your R's will be with all people, including your h. OKAY--

I volunteered at a battered women's shelter.

I coached a girl's softball team, two summers (my older D was on it).

I was on the board of directors for Wrestling, (b/c our son wrestled).

I auditioned for community theater and met some fun creative people. I got cast, too.

I did stand up comedy (and yes, I still do it). I did a whole set once on a MLCs at the Improv. It went very well.

I learned to cross country ski, became a better shooter.

I Learned to hunt big game, to deep sea fish, & I got better at downhill skiing.

I learned to use a snowmobile ("snow machine" to Alaskans)
I loved riding.

Learned to fly a plane, and I got a pilot's license.

Edited a book. (The book ended up on the Best Seller's List. Who knew?)

I Worked out 3-4 times a week, and I really did get in excellent shape. Looking good made a world of difference to me. (Plus I'd just had our last child and needed to lose the baby weight. It was NOT at all easy to do, let alone in the dark, deathly cold of their long LONG winters).

In the winter, I used a tanning booth, which helped me a lot with depression. I felt more energized, and it probably helped my appearance, which also helps us FEEL better.
(I know that those tanning booths post skin cancer risks. But I was facing a LONG brutal winter, again, and made the choice I felt was healthiest for ME at that time).

Saw a therapist and for some months, went on ADs.

Took a pottery class (very odd for me to do, but I liked it a lot).

Joined the Officer's Wives club after 15 years of active duty.

(Wish I had joined sooner! Met two women who are life long friends to this day.)

Joined a writer's group
Took a class in Conversational French
Took a class in Italian cooking

There is more, but I just wanted to suggest to you a few things you can do that do not cost a lot. Other than pilot training, most of these ^^ activities were free, or quite cheap.


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Just read your 'quote' from what you think he is saying to you Claire. I'm in a sort of similar boat. I'm working on the 180 thing. Following Sandi2's 37 Rules. Me and WAW are getting along great when we do talk. But I get the feeling what she's saying to me is "Great. You now agree our marriage is over. Let's just get along as if we are great friends but nothing more".
It seems as if all the changes I'm trying - not contacting first unless with regards to daughter, keeping fit, going out more and when she asks am I going out I say yes, even though I might not be ie to appear more outgoing than before etc - but I feel it isn't working.
I feel like what I'm doing is counter productive. However, she was texting me from daughter's phone earlier pretending to be daughter to joke about something. Then when I rang her they were both laughing. I was too because it was funny. It was like the old days. But I know if I brought this up she's go into her shell and say I need to get over things ie we're over.
This is sooo tough.


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EXCELLENT advice from 25yearsmlc above, I was going to reply but everything I was going to say has been covered smile

Originally Posted By: claire7
But man do I hate this detached, friendly co-parenting thing. When he writes, "Hey, thanks for that nice note. That was nice to hear," it sounds to me a little bit like....


STOP!!! You are mindreading, he was saying that you & that it was nice to hear, thats it, thats ALL that you can take from what he said without mindreading.

What was the note out of interest if you dont mind me asking Claire?


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Upwards: One of my action steps towards my goal is to offer him compliments about his parenting (something he is not super confident about). So, it was related to that. I tended to be pretty controlling with regards to parenting (high anxiety and OCD/perfectionism issues), so it's a big 180 for me to ask for his advice on parenting, or to accept a suggestion from him and say, "Great idea" without saying, "Yes, I know I've already read all about that," or "no, that's not what the experts say" or something superior and obnoxious like that. I was always trying to get him to "read the books" or do x,y, or z... and he never would. But, now he is telling me about the articles he's reading and strategies he is trying. Good for him. Good for our d3.


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I have a similar 180. I always chose/decided everything for our D7 (school, clothing, activities, daycare, outings, etc.) and rarely consulted his opinion. When he offered one, it was usually wrong. I think I'm more aware of this now. I've made a point of saying positive things about his parenting with D7. That has an extra benefit, too, as his LL is words of affirmation.

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Originally Posted By: hope456
I have a similar 180. I always chose/decided everything for our D7 (school, clothing, activities, daycare, outings, etc.) and rarely consulted his opinion.

Please let me use this^^ as a 'teaching point' without feeling as if I am bashing you. But this^^ behavior when it's in a man, is seen as CONTROLLING as heck, and comes off as critical too....b/c the other spouse is clearly not as capable as the one choosing...

so as easy as it is for we women/mothers to "do it all" we have to remind ourselves that it's NOT a quality or attribute to cultivate. It's mainly a flaw we have to work on modifying or eradicating.



When he offered one, it was usually wrong.


and here^^ we have the evidence that it is seen as "WRONG" of them to disagree w/us. Chances are the suggestion or answer is more subjective than "right vs wrong" and that gets hard to admit bc we THINK we have "worked it all out already" and our preferences are the "Right" ones...

but in truth, most of what we choose is not crucial and our spouse's preference is just as good as ours, sometimes it may not be but it's rarely a life and death matter. And if it's not, then why did we insist on having it our way and self righteously demand that it be done our way?

I think it's partly b/c as mothers (esp if we are stay at home mom's) we don't get a lot of positive accolades, and we don't get a "bonus or promotion" for a job well done. We need that...so perhaps we are more insistent than we need be, b/c we need some pats on the back. Too bad we couldn't just tell our h's that!



I think I'm more aware of this now. I've made a point of saying positive things about his parenting with D7. That has an extra benefit, too, as his LL is words of affirmation.


Ah well maybe this^^ is why My DB coach said to "applaud loudly for the 1% of positives they do" and at the time it felt so hard to do, that I had to work hard on it.

In retrospect, I'm embarrassed b/c giving compliments is simply a loving thing to do, and it costs me nothing. You'd never know that however...

Right as she told me that, I heard myself thinking "but if I compliment him for X, then he'll take Y for granted and might treat me worse ....."

It was as if I was risking something by complimenting my h! I was so wrong.


It was really the opposite b/c we risk a lot more by with holding compliments! We empty their love tanks b/c we don't add to it!

My h responds so much more to positives than negatives, I can't believe it took me decades to realize what could and should have been clear to me, much sooner.
I get treated much better b/c I compliment him more than before..
Lesson learned.


Does this resonate?


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^^^ 25yrs: The msg you replied to was written by hope456, not me... but since I could have said a lot of the same things myself, I read your reply closely.

Yes, it resonates a lot. This is definitely something I'm committed to working on in my next R (with my H or whoever else). I'm also working on it with everyone else in my life-- my D3, my parents, my colleagues...


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Resonates so completely! I really am trying to get as much positive as possible from this very painful experience, so I'm taking a long, hard look in the mirror.

Thanks, 25. I find your posts spot-on.

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Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc

The old marriage is dead and gone. Let it go as neither of you were happy. It's okay to concede that. It's crazy Not to concede that. AGREE with your h about the need for that marriage, to fade out... nothing to argue about there, is there? So let him see that you get it!


How do I do this? Just through my behavior? Is there any point at which it is appropriate to just validate and say, "I now understand why you had to leave. We couldn't go on the way we were. That was hard to accept at first since it wasn't a mutual decision. But I see things differently now. If I ever have the chance to start again with you, there are many things I'd do differently. I hope we have that chance, but regardless, I am making these changes for me and for the relationships I have in the future."

When, if ever, would I be able to say something like that?

Quote:

There is more, but I just wanted to suggest to you a few things you can do that do not cost a lot. Other than pilot training, most of these ^^ activities were free, or quite cheap.


I appreciate this, too, 25 years. But I have to say that I've done a lot of work coming to terms with the fact that I am an introvert-- which isn't necessarily a negative thing. But it does mean that while I enjoy the company of people I know, social situations do take a lot of energy for me. It's not that I'm "too busy", but I wouldn't have the energy (or desire) to be busy 24/7. I need quiet down time alone, as well.


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Definitely feel like I've had a setback today. I replied to his reply (in which he shared an article he read and strategies he is using with our D), thanking him for it, and praising him-- he is spending more QT with d, she is responding to him so well (she would never let him put her to bed before; now he does it 3x a week. And even if I am there, she is much more willing to be with H than before.)

So, he didn't reply to that but instead I got a reply to an earlier message asking him about plans for the summer. He (very politely) told me his tentative vacation plans with his family and (no longer my) friends, and requested another meeting with the mediator for next week.

He has opened up to me recently-- complimented me, asked for advice re: our D, shared pictures and little stories about her with me. But shows zero interest in me personally. He is committed to being a friendly co-parent, but wants nothing to do with me otherwise. I am feeling like such a fool for holding out any hope that he will reconsider.

He is done.

He is "I'm relieved she is not so angry and upset anymore because now I don't have to feel so guilty all the time. And I don't have to feel bad at all about letting her know about plans with her former family and friends that she is no longer a part of, because she's ok with it now!"

He is "great for her and our D that she is changing but there is not a chance I want her as my W ever again. There is someone else way better than her out there for me."

Mind-reading, I know. I KNOW. But I think I am misinterpreting his friendliness for ambivalence. But his actions (zero interest in me personally, moving forward with mediation) indicate he has decided that he is done.

Maybe I am having trouble detaching because I don't have closure. I want him to hold himself accountable for his role. I know he won't.

I feel like i am in mourning again, after feeling so much stronger for the last couple of months. I just feel like breaking down and sobbing, which i haven't felt in a while. The energy to keep this up is taking a toll on me, and if there is no chance of payoff... back to my beginning-- is it worth it?? Why am I bothering?

Shortly after he left he said he had to get to know the "new" me. How does that happen if I detach? But then, when I try to actually show a part of myself (like sending a friendly email with a little humor in it), he won't even respond.

6 months in, and I'm still stuck here.


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Originally Posted By: claire7
Definitely feel like I've had a setback today. I replied to his reply (in which he shared an article he read and strategies he is using with our D), thanking him for it, and praising him-- he is spending more QT with d, she is responding to him so well (she would never let him put her to bed before; now he does it 3x a week. And even if I am there, she is much more willing to be with H than before.)

So where is the setback? Praising him wasn't wrong; it was good and right. Did you add in the parts about "whereas before"??? That's not needed, just praise him without comparisons to other times...


So, he didn't reply to that but instead I got a reply to an earlier message asking him about plans for the summer. He (very politely) told me his tentative vacation plans with his family and (no longer my) friends, and requested another meeting with the mediator for next week.

who said these folks are no longer your friends? Oh...YOU said that. So, I assume YOU have no contact with them and thus, they could also assume you cut them off? I mean, you can't have it both ways, where you get to mind read (always negatively, I might add) and no one else is allowed to assume anything negative about you...

hmm, do you see how that sets them up for failure, and allows you to "Do" nothing, by pretending you have been rejected already?

Victimhood allows us to be complacent but with an excuse...but it IS an excuse, and it's often also a lie we tell ourselves -so we can let ourselves off the hook and just not try.


He has opened up to me recently-- complimented me, asked for advice re: our D, shared pictures and little stories about her with me.

These^^ are called positives. Really you MUST stop the "stinking thinking"....good grief!


But shows zero interest in me personally. He is committed to being a friendly co-parent, but wants nothing to do with me otherwise. I am feeling like such a fool for holding out any hope that he will reconsider.


STOP the mind reading...OMG it's really not constructive at all. And you are probably projecting a lot of this negativity to him...


He is done.

He is "I'm relieved she is not so angry and upset anymore because now I don't have to feel so guilty all the time. And I don't have to feel bad at all about letting her know about plans with her former family and friends that she is no longer a part of, because she's ok with it now!"

He is "great for her and our D that she is changing but there is not a chance I want her as my W ever again. There is someone else way better than her out there for me."


I THOUGHT he had SAID these ^^ things to you but you are making it up...OMG stop this now. HOW does this attitude help you?

Do you feel "Safer" by predicting failure? I mean, is that the reason you do this? It must serve you in some way, I guess, b/c you sure do it A LOT....but is it really helping you at all, or are you simply used to it? I think you do a lot of flawed analysis.



Mind-reading, I know. I KNOW. But I think I am misinterpreting his friendliness for ambivalence. But his actions (zero interest in me personally, moving forward with mediation) indicate he has decided that he is done.

I won't even comment on this^^ stuff anymore...like you said, you are mind reading and for some reason you alone might know, you do it all with negatives attached...


Maybe I am having trouble detaching because I don't have closure. I want him to hold himself accountable for his role. I know he won't.


You're not detaching, by CHOICE, and you need to stop pretending you have none. Because you DO have choice here. You are not powerless.


I feel like i am in mourning again, after feeling so much stronger for the last couple of months. I just feel like breaking down and sobbing, which i haven't felt in a while.

Healing is not a linear process.


You'll backslide and have some bad days and then you'll get past them, again.

You'll pick yourself up, dust yourself off and take a step forward, again...



The energy to keep this up is taking a toll on me, and if there is no chance of payoff... back to my beginning-- is it worth it?? Why am I bothering?


You are asking us questions (perhaps rhetorically) that only YOU have the answers to. We won't judge you if you want to quit. DBing is about becoming the best YOU that you can be...is that a worthy goal for you?

But I'll tell you right now, that you DO have a choice here. When I realized I was CHOOSING to stay married, it felt empowering. Realize this....


Shortly after he left he said he had to get to know the "new" me. How does that happen if I detach?

Detaching does not mean you stop caring or interacting at all. It means you are not attached to the results of his actions.

How to detach?

First, Stop making your posts all about HIM, and what HE says or what you think he means or thinks/feels.
Start making your posts about YOU and GAL and the steps you are taking to improve your life and some 180s....what are those?

And being a woman only a fool would leave means HE will want to get to know you and be around you (Unless this is all an act, which he'll see thru)


But then, when I try to actually show a part of myself (like sending a friendly email with a little humor in it), he won't even respond.


THAT^^ is pure 100% pursuit WITH expectations attached! Stop that. Focus on YOU. Only you.


6 months in, and I'm still stuck here.


Get yourself Unstuck. We can't do it for you. But we're all rooting for you.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
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To add to the great advice above by 25, I will share a thought my IC shared with me... It helps put a positive spin on things for me when I feel like H is putting effort in to EVERYTHING else but our M:

Men are very single-minded. They truly work best when focused on one thing. Women are multi-taskers, and can devote our attention to multiple areas. This is especially true when emotions are involved.

Maybe... Just MAYBE he is focused in being the best dad he can be right now. That may mean he can't give you focus. Honestly, though, if that is the case, your D needs him more than you do. Give him some time to work on that R. Even if you don't stay M, she needs her dad.

This stuff is so hard! Hang in there!


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Hi Claire. Yet again, I am struggling with many of the same ideas and issues as you are.

My IC said for me to stop predicting and guessing and own my truth - that is what is fact - not what I think will happen, what he thinks (even though I know my H better than anyone in the world and know how he thinks). Just know what is true.

And there are things that are difficult that are as a result of his choices.

When I start thinking like you are above (which happens ALOT) I say to myself - what is my truth? What are his choices he has made? Truth and choice.

It does help to slow the predicting and mindreading.

She also had me make a list of what would happen if we were to D - basically face the worst case seniario (sp?) and yes it would $uck none of it would cripple or kill me.

For me, putting it to paper made it less scary and made me realize I can do this.

I backslide all the time. But I know I cannot be a heap of tears forever.

And neither can you. Hope this helps a bit...


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Well, it looks like my the lights have been turned on and the music has been cut off on my little pity party! Thanks, 25yearsmlc, I really needed this! You made me laugh at how ridiculous I sounded!

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Praising him wasn't wrong; it was good and right. Did you add in the parts about "whereas before"??? That's not needed, just praise him without comparisons to other times...


Whew-- I did one thing right! I didn't add the "whereas before" part. Just the compliment. One point for me!

Quote:

I THOUGHT he had SAID these ^^ things to you but you are making it up...OMG stop this now. HOW does this attitude help you?

Do you feel "Safer" by predicting failure? I mean, is that the reason you do this? It must serve you in some way, I guess, b/c you sure do it A LOT....but is it really helping you at all, or are you simply used to it? I think you do a lot of flawed analysis.

(Is this what is called a "truth dart"?)

Quote:

You are asking us questions (perhaps rhetorically) that only YOU have the answers to. We won't judge you if you want to quit. DBing is about becoming the best YOU that you can be...is that a worthy goal for you?

YES! YES! YES!

Quote:
[/i] Start making your posts about YOU and GAL and the steps you are taking to improve your life and some 180s....what are those?

Get yourself Unstuck. We can't do it for you. But we're all rooting for you.


Thanks.

My 180s:
--Stopping the negativity. That would be HUGE.
--Pulling the trigger/decision-making. Have made some progress on projects around the house.
--Cooking. Have done a bit. Signed up for a class.
--Exercise (I ran quite a bit before I was married/had a baby.) Have had some physical issues since then so don't exercise much besides walking. (Although I am not overweight). But doing some strength training or yoga would feel great.
--Planning trips

Thanks for the honest feedback and tough love.


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D 3
T 8 M 6
BD 10/2013

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Love the 180s! I'm working on negativity, too.

(((Claire)))

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AFTER READING your 180's I can tell you your doing great.

I am so sorry that you are in so much pain.

You have been doing great don't sell yourself short.


W 53 H 51, S 16, S 21
33 years M 28
DD 3 Feb 11, 2014
S21 and His Fiancée move in with us 8/14
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So much of what you said resonated with me as well. Although at this point I have NC with my H. I too feel like by me "letting him go" it is a sign for him that he is ok to move on with whatever it is he is doing and let go of his guilt and anger.

Of course I have no idea what is really going on in his head. It has been about 2.5 weeks since we've had any sort of interaction between us.

I spend so much of my time with the would've and could've and what ifs that it is consuming all of my energy. My IC also says to focus on today and what I can control which is me.

Quote:
"The energy to keep this up is taking a toll on me, and if there is no chance of payoff... back to my beginning-- is it worth it?? Why am I bothering?"


The problem with so many of us on here is we are doing all this, making changes and focusing on 'the payoff' the problem is we focus on the wrong payoff. The payoff we should focus on, and will hopefully get to is the better, happier self.


Me-44 (45)
H- 50 (51)
M-'96

S-18(20)D-15(17)D-12(14)

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Originally Posted By: lost18
So much of what you said resonated with me as well. Although at this point I have NC with my H. I too feel like by me "letting him go" it is a sign for him that he is ok to move on with whatever it is he is doing and let go of his guilt and anger.

Of course I have no idea what is really going on in his head. It has been about 2.5 weeks since we've had any sort of interaction between us.

I spend so much of my time with the would've and could've and what ifs that it is consuming all of my energy. My IC also says to focus on today and what I can control which is me.

Quote:
"The energy to keep this up is taking a toll on me, and if there is no chance of payoff... back to my beginning-- is it worth it?? Why am I bothering?"


The problem with so many of us on here is we are doing all this, making changes and focusing on 'the payoff' the problem is we focus on the wrong payoff. The payoff we should focus on, and will hopefully get to is the better, happier self.



^^^^^BINGO!!! grin
cool



M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

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Been quiet for a few days because I really have been thinking hard about the advice I've been given. Working on detaching and GAL. And now I can say I'm feeling pretty good about that. Some of my 180s that I've accomplished:

-- leaving work thinking about the good things of the day, not the failures.
-- living in the moment with my daughter-- trying to not be so controlling, enjoying our time instead of just getting through it.
-- not feeling so wistful or worrying/wondering what H is doing. We have very little contact--pretty much just about our D3.

I've had a couple of moments of sadness-- felt like I was tearing up, like "I can't believe this is my life".. but I took a breath and moved on by thinking about something good in my life. I'm just not consumed with feelings of sadness and loss anymore.


Me 38 H 40
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BD 10/2013

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Oh, and I'm also starting to let myself come to terms with the fact that this M is likely to end in divorce. It seemed so impossible to me, but here I am 6 months after he BD and left that day, And we have had no R talk, And almost no interaction beyond our D3, since February.

He has moved ahead with meetings with mediator. I know he has noticed the changes in me-- he has complimented me on them -- but no noticeable change in attitude towards our R or M. I'll go to my grave with a clear conscience that I did absolutely everything I could. I'm actually seeing now in him things he complained about in me! ( Anxiety, negativity). He's got his own stuff to work on (and i have no idea if he is or not), but if he doesn't work on those things then he is not someone I should be married to anyway.


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WOW Claire the turn around in you is amazing, you sound like your doing SO well, go you!!! I think there comes a point when we've done a lot of the grieving & it clicks that we are the only ones that can make this situation better and we can't spend the rest of our lives mourning a relationship that's well & truly dead. It's at this point that we can really start to do the work on ourselves without constantly looking over our shoulder to see if our spouse is noticing.

Originally Posted By: claire7
Oh, and I'm also starting to let myself come to terms with the fact that this M is likely to end in divorce.

Accepting the reality is really good, it shows that your now acting more from a logical perspective & not an emotional one. None of us know what will happen in the future, but RIGHT NOW our marriages are over and we have to accept that before we can move forwards.

Originally Posted By: claire7
I'll go to my grave with a clear conscience that I did absolutely everything I could. I'm actually seeing now in him things he complained about in me! ( Anxiety, negativity). He's got his own stuff to work on (and i have no idea if he is or not), but if he doesn't work on those things then he is not someone I should be married to anyway.

Absolutely, you've done all that you could & much more besides!!

Often the WAS will project their own behaviours onto you as they feel guilty & allows them to put the blame on you, looking at themselves & taking responsibility is too much for them!


Divorce Final: Oct 2014

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Two big 180s today. ..
was 5 minutes into commute to work when I realized I left my phone at home. Old me would have been in a state of panic , fuming at my stupidity, stressing about being late to work. H was at the house watching our D. But instead of coming back in a panicked huff, I came back totally calm and pleasant-- and stayed calm even though I couldn't find it for like 5 minutes.

I felt really proud about that.

Earlier, H noticed a new something I had bought for the house. "Oh, you bought a ...? Why?" Old me would have gotten defensive, felt judged, said something like, "does it bother you?". Instead, I just answered his question calmly

I am confident, capable and strong. He is a fool. I've been thinking a lot more about the things I was unhappy about in our M. I tried to talk to him about them in the past, suggested MC. He always refused. And I was too ill and too afraid to actually take any steps to make a change. Maybe there is someone out there who will be a better match for me. H and I do not speak the same love or apology language. We had so much trouble understanding each other. I certainly can't make him change, and I can't make him want to change. And someone so inflexible and rigid and limited in their capacity to self-reflect is not a good match for me.

I know that my next relationship will be healthier because I am so much more at peace with myself and I know I can change a dynamic single-handedly--i am powerful! That feels really great.


Me 38 H 40
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BD 10/2013

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Do we all do this.?
Focus on the negative,practice failing, mind read, predict.try to control
6 months on and this last week I have been back to the beginning...not sure why. Perhaps a relaisation that this really is real..
It is encouraging to read I am not the only one

Motivation for GAL has been low.. living alone, very little contact..180 is not contacting. Or crying..Great what a sad little list..
Sugar coating the attitude at work..crying heap at home.. separation and marriage constantly in and on my mind..


M 10 T 14

BD 10/13
I really don't get it..
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Re: I've done all I can: I have a couple of friends who were the WAS. In talking with them about their R, it was clear that their LBS did not follow DB! They did not become the spouse only a fool would leave. And it made their decision to leave so much easier, even though it was so painful for them to do that.

But that is not me. I have accepted responsibility for my part in the failures of our M, and have already made significant changes on the 2 biggest issues that H raised. And even though I made lots of mistakes at the beginning, I also took responsibility right away. I said that a separation would be good for us, to help us restart. I was not in denial and I didn't blame him.

But alas.

I'm experimenting in teeny tiny ways-- just friendly conversation in the small moments that I see him. Lately he has been a tiny bit warmer. I am still committed to DB for my daughter's sake, but I certainly don't want him back as is. And since he doesn't want me either, that makes it bit easier.


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BD 10/2013

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Just an update: I started a new thread (not sure when a thread gets locked). Would love some words of wisdom.

Thanks for all the support thus far!

new thread


Me 38 H 40
D 3
T 8 M 6
BD 10/2013

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