Take Two ...

[Starsky309]

Train,

I hope you won't take this the wrong way, but I've been trying to put my finger on what it is about your posts that keeps gnawing at me. I mean, first off, you are obviously a very bright, articulate, funny, insightful woman, and that comes thru loud and clear.

Usually, I am having to advise people to care a little LESS . . . become more detached. But you seem like maybe you need to care a little . . . more?

Your descriptions of your sitch come across to me as almost FLIPPANT, even though there are obviously big issues on the table here.

In any event, I WOULD urge you to try to get back to that DB principle of "having the mind of a beginner." Much of your DBing seems "too cute by half" to me, and I'd just like to caution you that you may not know HALF of what you THINK you know about what your husband is thinking or doing.

Or, maybe you do, and you're just that good and I'm all wet.

Peace,

Starsky

P.S. HS is the best . . . you'll get GREAT advice from him!!

[Train]

Thanks, hs. I know you are exactly right.

I swear, the battle between heart and head is REAL! Hahaha.

And, yes, on the ML. No doubt. I have set a boundary with myself that it will. not. happen. while he's still communicating with her. It wouldn't happen until or unless I'm convinced he's genuinely remorseful. H and I have, indeed, always had a great sex life ... when we make time. And that certainly makes resisting HARD. Fortunately for me, he's not trying right now. I might have to go for a quick run ... or take a cold shower or something ... if that changes.

But the truth is: I'm kind of having fun viewing MYSELF as the "OW" right now. (Funny how the tables turn, eh?) So, being able to doll up and be a little flirty, and watching his eyes and his sexual tension grow (even if only a little right now), then telling him "bye," is actually kind of invigorating and fun. (Sad what constitutes as "fun" these days - ha.) Shameful of me, maybe. But that's a little bit of an "unfair advantage" that women have in these sitches; might as well use it. Besides, it's making me feel better. And that's all that matters right now.

And as for those darned teenagers: with two daughters, 16 and 17, I have some REAL experience with that relationship-rebellion, especially with my poor D16. Just last summer, I gave her all the words of wisdom I had about a guy she wanted to date. She broke up with her long-time BF for the new guy. I warned her about that being shaky ground, but I told her I wouldn't stand in her way. She made the choice to take the plunge. And she paid the price. Thankfully, it didn't take long.

So you're right: Sounds about the same as with H. Hopefully it won't take long for his fog to lift, either, so we can at least constructively talk about our R and the breakdown of our M. I'd *at least* like some closure on that. And there are things I know I should probably apologize for and improve about myself as a partner, whether that's with HIM ... or someone else ... eventually.

That is, if I don't swear off romantic love forever.

[Train]

Starsky, I TOTALLY feel you, and *I think* I know what you're sensing. (And thank you for your kind words about me, by the way.)

I could be wrong. But see if this puts your finger on my pulse: Indecisiveness. Trying to be one way. Feeling a different way. Not wanting to totally commit to saving my M ... because I failed once ... and I'm deathly afraid of failing again.

And I'm deathly afraid my H won't even want to try. That this could really be "it." But he's sending too many mixed signals for me to be sure.

I assure you, I'm taking this super-seriously. And I care an awful lot. But I'm not a beginner at this, which might be why you're not having to tell me to care less and detach like you do most people. I threw my DB hat on immediately. And perhaps I'm taking that too far. I am MAD this time. I am insulted. I am heartbroken. And I am completely confused about what I want. Or what I can have. Or what I can do to get it.

I'm also dealing with unresolved issues from last time.

And I'm also likely struggling to be completely honest about my deepest feelings here because anyone I've confided in "out here" has told me I'd be crazy to even THINK of taking him back this time. So I've built up walls; I'm a little guarded, for a number of reasons. I understand that if I'm GOING to be honest with myself - and I need to be - that this is the perfect place to do it. But I'm also having a hard time picking everything apart to DECIDE what I want. That's why I came back here. To write. To receive feedback. And to try to sort it all out.

I may not know half of what H is thinking or doing; you're likely right about that. Heck, if I can't even figure out what *I* am thinking or doing, who am I to try to figure that out in HIM? I just re-read my book this week, but I'll absolutely go back to that chapter and read it again.

I just don't know if it's worth it to try. So I'm doubling-up my "I don't care" efforts because whether he comes back or not, that's sort of where I need to be, mentally.

I could be totally wrong about any and all of that, and I am depending on you guys to help pull ME out of a possible fog. I'm certainly not above being in one. And thank you for that. I do not mind - in fact, I appreciate - being held accountable.

Does any of that make sense?

[Train]

(I should also add: I'm a writer by trade. And that could very well be why my descriptions of my sitch seem flippant.)

[Train]

Okay, Starsky. I went back and re-read the 1st chapter. I didn't glean anything new from it; in fact, it (and all my underlining and highlight-marks from my previous read) kind of reenforced everything I've been thinking/doing, instinctively, from the bomb-drop: communicating differently than normal (differently, for me, is NO talking/communicating), looking at things differently/changing things about myself (for me, I'm a SAHM, so showing confidence - and taking care of myself - is really a change from how H has seen me lately); "it takes one to tango" (although I'm detaching from him while separated, I'm being polite to him and validating him at times when, as sh says, it's heartfelt and genuine), noting that "small changes matter," and "thinking small" (H texted me, just because, about my car today), etc. etc. etc. The chapter even says that the focus might not be to fret over the CAUSE of why we're not getting along ... but to figure out *what to do about it*. Right now, H and I are S. We don't see each other. There's not much I can do, besides GAL/180s/detach/"act as if". And that's what I'm doing.

I am TRYING to re-think EVERYTHING with a beginner's mind. It is driving me CRAZY. If I'm missing something, pleeeeeease let me know; I'm sincerely desperate for feedback, even though that might not come across in my posts.

There is some specific feedback I might be able to use from you all, because this could actually help me tons:

My writing-style is very conversational. As I said, during my working-years, I was a writer. I write the way I think. Especially on this forum, I just write what I think, as I think it. It's like journaling for me. But if people could SEE me when I write/communicate, they'd see I'm *feeling* things - very deeply. But from the other side of a computer screen, I can see how my true emotions may not come across succinctly. In fact, I might come across as too direct, too confident, too strong, too uncaring, "too cute by half" etc.

Here's the problem: Because I write like I think/talk, I can imagine that perhaps having a conversation with me in person, or over text, might be a tad overwhelming if/when I'm at odds with someone or really trying to relay something about which I feel passionately.

Here's my "eureka moment" when I read what you posted: I think this may be why my H has been accusing me of being a "sarcastic b!tch" lately; all we did, after he left, was text. So, as you can likely imagine, I came down with a heavy - and, he's right, probably seeming sarcastic - hand. It's my way of masking my pain. Because I've dealt with this before, I *do* feel stronger. But I'm feeling lots and lots ... and lots ... of overwhelming pain. I feel pain looking at my children. I feel pain looking at my teenagers. I feel pain when I see my H. I feel pain and anxiety about how I will lead this family of (now) 5 when I depend on my H sooooo much, especially financially. But I also depend on him as a companion, my best friend; I just probably never expressed that enough to him. Allllll I feel is pain. But I don't SAY that. I haven't even told him that. Not even once. And, in the aftermath of his betrayal, I'm trying to take back *just a little bit* of control. *Just a little bit* of integrity. *Just a little bit* of power. Just a little bit ...

But I DO NOT want to look weak. Or in pain. Or dependent on him.

I have many friends. And I have many who seek out conversations with me. So it's not like I'm a crappy conversationalist. Even my H actively seeks me out when he needs "advice." We had one such conversation right around Christmastime. He approached me and told me that he had always watched me be so "giving" to people; I'd take the shirt off my back for anyone in need. He's NEVER been that way. He said he used to look at me and think I was ridiculous for feeling good for giving so much away for absolutely nothing in return. But he was in a position to help someone at Christmastime, and he wanted to talk to me about the pros and cons.

Without knowing this was around the exact time he had initiated contact with OW, btw, I spent 45 minutes to an hour talking with him. Let me rephrase: Talking TO him. I hate to admit that. Even as soon as the conversation was over, I felt I had talked it TO DEATH, even though he has asked me to talk with him about the pros and cons of the decision before he made it. Even *immediately* after I talked it to death, I started beating myself up. I realized that probably all he wanted was to receive validation from me ... and a pat on the back ... even though he had *asked* me to weigh the pros and cons with him. I don't think he was looking for me to *kill it* with the up-sides and potential pitfalls of his choice. I mean, that's what he ASKED for, so I gave it to him.

At the end of it all, I encouraged him to give, despite the potential "cons." I told him to give with a "giving heart," without expecting a pay-back. And that's what he chose to do. I was over-the-moon happy for him because it made him feel like a million dollars. I liked to see that happiness in him. And I told him so. But I was even happier that it was HIS decision to give, even after I had delivered the potential "cons."

I just think I talk (write) too danged much. I over-think ... and maybe over-type ... EVERYTHING.

I have always praised my husband, privately and publicly, for "getting me out of my head." I've praised him for being my very best friend and someone who reminds me to be spontaneous and not take life so freaking seriously. In fact, I did that again on our Valentine's anniversary ... on my Facebook page, which is followed by many people. He seriously asked several times that night how many "likes" it got (self-esteem issues much?).

Yet, he spent that night, after we had both fallen asleep (but he awoke), texting OW.

Maybe I'm just too "aggressive" of a communicator? Too direct, perhaps? Do I come across too strong??

Just to be clear: I never write my H letters. In fact, if I'm ever having a disagreement with *anyone*, I try NOT to write letters. Because I know I come across as a focused, non-caring, "too cute for half" pit-bull.

But now I'm afraid maybe that's how I come across face-to-face, too, especially when I'm mad and/or nervous and/or anxious and/or in a corner. And that seems it could be VERY intimidating to others if I am at-odds with them. And that makes me feel really crappy because I don't want to be such a heavy-handed communicator ALL the time when I'm uncomfortable or angry.

And here I am, likely over-thinking this, too ...

Or am I?

[Train]

What's more, guys:

He worked 5 days and nights a week, and on Saturdays, when he didn't have to. For our finances, he could have worked half that time in the evenings. His time at his 2nd job - at least most of it - was all about his ego. And, beyond finances, he didn't think of me/us. He inconsiderately stuck me at home with the kids during "second shift" - after I had already been with them ALL day ... and even slept in the same room with them at night - while he worked and, often, spent hours drinking beer in the shop with his "partner," without making a dime.

In other words, I'm spinning my wheels, trying to figure out how *I* contributed to the breakdown of our M. And all the while, he's blaming me, too. It alllllll becomes about ME and MY inadequacies. And I'm SICK of it.

He supposedly worked so much that he didn't have time for me. Any time he was home, he was either playing with the kids or asleep. He even slept at home during his lunch break. I thought it was because he was working all the time, so I accommodated that. I didn't bother him while he slept. I rarely complained because of my stupid compassion.

In the aftermath, I discovered he slept all the time because he was up all night, texting OW.

So maybe that accounts a little for my feelings of independence and strength, too.

Big problems are on the table. But mostly, that's because of him.

(Another) Vent over.

[Train]

UGH!!!! I HATE this crap. Hate it. Hate it. HATE it!!!!

H usually calls the little kids every night. (He avoids me and my daughters, his stepdaughters - 16 & 17 - who he's raised since they were 4 & 5.)

He missed calling the "babies" one night last week. I didn't say a word. He missed last night. I didn't say a word. (He texted me at lunch "just because" today; it was a pleasant exchange, detailed in an earlier post, which is still in moderation, I believe.) He didn't call tonight, either. But he texted after 10, freaking out because he lost track of time. He said: "Hey! Calling S7 at least. Had no idea what time it is ..." (I'm sure he's working, but who's to say he isn't with OW, right?!??)

1.5 hours later, I texted back: "Hey. Kids and I had an impromptu snuggly movie night, watching Frozen. Didn't have my phone on me. They're sacked."

I knew this would bother him. I also know he needs, as sh said, to FEEL what he's left. It was the truth, though. I know he misses our time together as a family. It was always one of his favorite things to snuggle together on the couch as a family and watch a movie. It was one of OUR favorite things.

Sure enough, he just wrote back: "K"

I wrote: "Trying to keep my phone on me until 9:30ish in case you call." (Setting a boundary.)

And, again, he wrote: "K."

He's ticked.

Yay. (I say that sarcastically.) Can't wait to see how he "pays me back." (I say that sarcastically, too.)

This crap seems so backwards sometimes.

[Train]

Just found out OW's H has retained legal counsel ... at the same firm that would represent me. My L told me OW's H has "a lot" of information ... "much more" than even I was able to gather. That means he's been getting more over the past few weeks since H has been gone and, clearly, still carrying on his EA/PA. I assumed that was the case and have been dealing pretty well with detaching from it.

Apparently, the legal partners are wanting to work together to share information, and OW's H has acknowledged he's willing to work with me and share information. My L said he wouldn't tell me the extent of OW's H's information until I signed a waiver, acknowledging I don't mind the firm representing us both. That will happen in the next two days.

To know that information feels the equivalent of snooping. It might help me eventually, in a legal sense. But I JUST NOW started feeling better after all the information *I* had uncovered. (Not snooping, for the record, is the absolute best medicine for anxiety; it has saved my sanity.) I'm not sure I'm ready to see what OW's H has; my L said it is "bad" and would really help solidify/further my case.

I am literally sick. I had given my H a "golden ticket" out of this nightmare when I sent him an e-mail that OW's H sent to me, saying he was going to work to repair his M. That "forgiveness" literally took H off the hook, legally, for his part in this. I told him if he stopped talking to/pursuing OW at that time - which was about a month ago - he would be legally clear from a suit from OW's H. I'm such an enabling fool.

My H is now a sitting duck, apparently with stacks of evidence against him.

L said even if the OW's H files suit against H, courts will always consider alimony and child support a precedent ... even if OW's H's judgment against H comes down first. So I'm still protected and okay to "hurry up and wait" with filing.

I think I'll just tell my L to hold onto this new "evidence," though. I don't want to see it now. And there's no need because, for now, I'm just letting things ride ... until H withholds money from me or substantially decreases what he's giving me now. At that point, I'd have to file for a S. And then I guess I'd HAVE to see what evidence he has because I'll have to use it.

I had *just* started feeling better.

Someone remind me to breathe ...

[HopefulStill]

And here I was thinking that the OWs husband was being dismissive and burying his head in the sand!

Whatever the OH gathered may help you down the road, if you need it. In the meantime, like you said, no need to do anything.

I'm going to predict that the A with the OW will crash and burn sooner than later. This means that you can take your time and give your husband all the rope he needs.... Enforce your boundaries and meet none of his needs. Let the OW to try to meet ALL of his needs- I don't think this grocery cashier will be able to.

Way too tired to write more (long day). Sorry about the news, though I'm sure it's not a total shock!

Oh, and *breathe*

Hs

[unbidden]

Hang in there. I admire your strength in not looking at the info. It will get better.