Here's my story, hope it's in the right place. Very glad I've found this site, great suggestions and great insight from people in similar situations.
I've been with my wife 18 years, married ten with three little children 3,5,7
January 1, my wife admitted to an internet/phone affair, and then after digging I found email that she was meeting with the OM the next day. I made several mistakes, freaked out, went into shock, told her if she met him it was over etc. lots of threats that I had no intention of keeping. I also asked her to leave the house.
She did agree to do a counselling session, we set one up for four days from then, and she said she would leave, but didn't know if she would meet up him. No communication for a few days, saw her again on Sunday, I continued to ask question etc. In counselling, she admitted to affair.
Obviously I went into shock, hugely. Also awakening for me. I realize our marriage had some issues, but it was always happy and had no precursors for me. I.e. Lack of intimacy, constant fighting etc. However, most importantly, we had communication issues regarding things that were important to each other. We also had a miscarriage two years ago that wasn't dealt with properly . I also didn't listen enough to my wife's voice. Of course, none of this changes or deserved her actions, I am just acknowledging the role I played in this.
We are still doing counselling, and initially my wife agreed to no contact with the OM, but she didn't follow through. And before I got ahold of DR, I made mistake after mistake, pleading, begging, following around house etc. I fear I probably pushed her away. I realize she was already a WAW, but I didn't give her space.
So now, I have given a ton of space. I have made improvements in myself with respect to appearance, mindset, and have become a better father and person. The shock caused me to lose 20 pounds, but I am now stronger, and have the best health of my life physically. I am no longer obsessing about my situation. I am following Sandi's guidelines. Thanks Sandi, life saving . Generally I feel pretty good.
Where it gets complicated, is with our kids doing so many activities, we see each other almost daily. We are ferreting kids back and forth etc. Our interactions have been pleasant, lots of smiles, and a few flirty jokes etc. We have not been intimate for a few weeks, but were in the aftermath. I have not pursued this at all now for fear of destroying progress.
She has been staying with a friend for almost two months, and is now preparing to move out to her own place. After refusing to give up contact with the OM, I know she has been sexting and visiting him occasionally ( he lives a few hours away). I think, and her friends think she is having a MLC, and she is emotionally a mess. She does have some mental health/ depression issues. She is frequently crying around me, and told me she thinks she is a bit delusional.
Where I am struggling is with the trial separation coming up on March 1. Do I cut off finances, restrict time with the kids to certain days for each of us, or what. Feel like I need to do LRT, as she will just continue her relationship with the OM.
My questions are:
-should I show her the book, she saw it accidentally, and was curious, but I don't think it would help. Although one of the success stories talked about a WAW reading the book and then returning - I am acting as if, and giving appearances of moving on. Where do I draw the line. help her move, be nice etc? -her family and friends all support me, which is leaving her feeling like she has no one except OM to turn to. Not good -I have discovered I have a great capacity for reflection, and I am not believing anything she says right now, or does. However, lots of it hurts tons - friends have told me she is amazed at the changes I have made, and it is making her decision very difficult. I don't bring them up though, I just keep doing. -I have been doing DB coaching by phone, should I involve her?
Thanks for all you help and patience. This is definitely one of the hardest things I have ever had to deal with. I'm also not sure how to start a new thread, but I will notify the moderator.
I realize this sounds funny, but there are positive aspects to this occurring. I have made significant life changes that are making me a better person, and my relationship with my children is amazing. Regardless of what happens, none of that will be changing. The problem is, I still love my wife and have strong feelings for her. I am in a bit of denial, because I have hope that if I am patient, the affair will blow over, she will come to her senses, and our new relationship will be amazing. Time will tell I guess
Yes, on a occasional basis, but they talk every day. He lives a few hours away. She won't classify the relationship or admit it is anything, and refuses to believe it affects us in any way
From our sessions in counselling, and the talks we have had, she felt like I never listened to her, and we didn't have the same vision for life. She is/ was overwhelmed with our three children, and she feels like we don't bring out the best in each other the last few months, and she's skeptical we ever can ( not surprising as she is involved with OM right now
Hi, hope you will stick with the board while you apply DBing to your stitch.
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January 1, my wife admitted to an internet/phone affair, and then after digging I found email that she was meeting with the OM the next day. I made several mistakes, freaked out, went into shock, told her if she met him it was over etc. lots of threats that I had no intention of keeping. I also asked her to leave the house.
I also had an Internet A. So I can identify with so e things your W is doing, but she has carried it further by meeting him in person. Do you know anything about him?
When you have a WAW in an A, you have to approach the stitch with a different attitude and do a different style of work than you probably had in mind. I think the first thing you need to try to grasp is this is no longer the girl you M. You will need to train yourself (for the time she is a WAW) to not think/treat her as you would your "wife". I will comment more on that later.
Have either of you been involved with another person while together in your R?
Remember, never give threats or ultimatums......unless you fully I tend to carry it out. Never say or do something to get a desired reaction from her. It will backfire on you!
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She did agree to do a counselling session, we set one up for four days from then, and she said she would leave, but didn't know if she would meet up him. No communication for a few days, saw her again on Sunday, I continued to ask question etc. In counselling, she admitted to affair.
I know counseling sounds like the logical thing to do to fix this problem, but MC at this point will not help. She is not in the right frame of mind to desire working on the M. As long as she is in the A, she will not be ready to piece the M back together. So in other words, nothing will work to fix her....or the MR until she ends the A. Do you understand?
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Where it gets complicated, is with our kids doing so many activities, we see each other almost daily. We are ferreting kids back and forth etc. Our interactions have been pleasant, lots of smiles, and a few flirty jokes etc. We have not been intimate for a few weeks, but were in the aftermath. I have not pursued this at all now for fear of destroying progress.
Make out a schedule regarding the kids activities.
Don't act like her H when you see her at any of the activities. Do you know what i mean? Just act as if she is a neighbor or co-worker. Be nice, speak or wave. Don't expect ANYTHING from her. The more you expect, the more you will feel let down. Do not get into a R talk while at any of these activities.
My advice would be to not plan for intimacy while she's in an A. However, if it should happen, please use protection. Don't accept only her word that she has not had sex with OM. If she has been sextingng and going to "visit" him, then it would be highly unlikely there has been no physical sex involved.
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She is frequently crying around me, and told me she thinks she is a bit delusional.
Be careful when she does this. She acts out of her emotions. She will also do what we call "tempt checking". It is a way that the WAW uses to assure herself that you are still her backup plan.....if the OM doesn't work out.
Just let her cry and act pitiful. Do not tell her to move home and let you take care of her. You don't act like a jerk when she cries, but neither do you try to rescue her from what she is feeling. The sooner she faces her new reality, the sooner she may be able to end her A. Do not invite her to move home as long as she is still contacting OM! She needs to have him completely out of her head before making that step.
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Where I am struggling is with the trial separation coming up on March 1. Do I cut off finances, restrict time with the kids to certain days for each of us, or what. Feel like I need to do LRT, as she will just continue her relationship with the OM.
Get your lawyer's advice about the finances. As for the LRT, yes.....definitely! -
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should I show her the book, she saw it accidentally, and was curious, but I don't think it would help. Although one of the success stories talked about a WAW reading the book and then returning
No, it is for your eyes only!
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I am acting as if, and giving appearances of moving on. Where do I draw the line. help her move, be nice etc?
Not sure I understand what you are asking, but as I said before, don't think of her as your W, but maybe a friendly neighbor or co-worker. As long as she is contacting OM, I advise you not to try act like her BFF. When you fall into the trap of being best friends, you will never know where to draw lines. I have seen it happen to much here on the boards. You cannot think of her as your friend or as your W, while she's involved with OM. I hope you brain will stay balanced when I say not to think of her as your W.
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-her family and friends all support me, which is leaving her feeling like she has no one except OM to turn to. Not good
Is there a question there? Listen, most WAW's turn from those who don't support the new love interest. You should not protect her from the consequences of an A.
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-I have discovered I have a great capacity for reflection, and I am not believing anything she says right now, or does. However, lots of it hurts tons
The main reason behind not believing what she says or does.....is a way of protecting you of greater hurt. And that is why I suggested to try to think of her not being your W. That may seem impossible, but try.
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have been doing DB coaching by phone, should I involve her?
What does your coach say? Personally, I believe your W is not emotionally invested enough to benefit from it. DBing are tools for the S who wants to save the M. It would be placing pressure on her.....just as asking her to read material on marriages.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
So yes, I have determined a lot about the OM. He is in the same profession as my wife, and vey active in the union as well. They are both active on twitter where they first met. I have found out more details about him, believe he is divorced, but not sure. Think he has two kids that don't live with him.
I'll try to answer your questions here, and thanks again for the advice, it is much appreciated.
Neither of us has been involved with anyone else during our relationship.
I like the advice to approach her as a neighbour. This change of tact would be the hardest to implement, but I see the benefit.
I was confused if I should be doing LRT, so that helps as well
I have sought legal advice, and been advised to keep things status quo for now. I have the kids with me. And once a financial burden is created, I will have to pay spousal most likely.
With respect to family and protecting her from affair, yes, I probably have been, but I will no longer.
My coach hasn't offered an opinion on including her in counselling, but I would agree with you, it's not going to be effective at this time. My wife wants to maintain counselling to work on our relationship going forward and our communication. We aren't working on reconciliation. Especially at this point.
I will try to implement your suggestions, and keep you posted. Yesterday was a bad day for me with a bit of backsliding. We were having a relationship conversation that was initiated by her. I like to avoid those at this time.
Thanks so much for your help and advice. These forums have tons of great info and support. Life saving!
One more thing I forgot, my WAW is the ACOAs and has a lot of resentful compliance that has been ingrained in her from her childhood. She felt like she raised her siblings. Our individual counselling has been focused on each of us, and the MC more on our interactions.
Thanks so much for your insight. It's much appreciated
When a WAW just comes out and tells you she is not going to end the A, it is comparable to a rebellious young adult. They are determined to do what they want to do and the more you try to change their minds.....the more they rebell. Therefore, life has to be the teacher by putting them through hard experiences.
It is not you job to administer punishment or shame, but neither should you try to shield her from it. That means you have to put yourself into a new role for awhile. You are use to being the protector of your family (and will continue to protect you a d the children), but you will need to step aside and let things hit her as though you are no longer in the picture. After all, that is what she thinks she wants, so let her have it. When a M woman wants to play around like she is single, there is a price. I personally believe that the WAW in an A has to be able to see some of that cost before she starts coming to her senses.
The more you struggle to get her to do things your way (trying to save the marriage), the harder she will fight you. That's why some WAW's say they want to be good friends with the LBH, b/c she wants to take the arguing out of the picture and everyone just be one happy family. However, the family unit is broken b/c of her decisions and it can't be a happy family until she ends the A and is willing to work on repairing the MR.
I know it is so easy to get your attention focused on the third party, but many WAW's end an A and still do not want to R the M. But for sure, nothing.......and I mean nothing will be accomplished toward your MR as long as she continues the A. The first step she has to make before you even consider reconciling is end the A and get through the withdrawal period with no contacting OM. She would need to be willing to be fully transparent in all her activity. And transparency really tests the rebellious spirit of the WAW. However, that is a ways off yet.
I said all of the above mainly to emphasize that giving her material to read on M or getting her into MC really is a waste of effort b/c she is not interested in saving the M. Her reasons of "better communication" is flimsy, at best. I can almost guarantee you that no ground will be gained. Now, once she is ready to R, then I suggest a good pro marriage counselor who will work with you both.
Starsky is a succeful DBer, and he could be a lot of help to you. He usually hangs around this forum when visits the board.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
When a WAW just comes out and tells you she is not going to end the A, it is comparable to a rebellious young adult. They are determined to do what they want to do and the more you try to change their minds.....the more they rebell. Therefore, life has to be the teacher by putting them through hard experiences.
It is not you job to administer punishment or shame, but neither should you try to shield her from it. That means you have to put yourself into a new role for awhile. You are use to being the protector of your family (and will continue to protect you a d the children), but you will need to step aside and let things hit her as though you are no longer in the picture. After all, that is what she thinks she wants, so let her have it. When a M woman wants to play around like she is single, there is a price. I personally believe that the WAW in an A has to be able to see some of that cost before she starts coming to her senses.
The more you struggle to get her to do things your way (trying to save the marriage), the harder she will fight you. That's why some WAW's say they want to be good friends with the LBH, b/c she wants to take the arguing out of the picture and everyone just be one happy family. However, the family unit is broken b/c of her decisions and it can't be a happy family until she ends the A and is willing to work on repairing the MR.
I know it is so easy to get your attention focused on the third party, but many WAW's end an A and still do not want to R the M. But for sure, nothing.......and I mean nothing will be accomplished toward your MR as long as she continues the A. The first step she has to make before you even consider reconciling is end the A and get through the withdrawal period with no contacting OM. She would need to be willing to be fully transparent in all her activity. And transparency really tests the rebellious spirit of the WAW. However, that is a ways off yet.
I said all of the above mainly to emphasize that giving her material to read on M or getting her into MC really is a waste of effort b/c she is not interested in saving the M. Her reasons of "better communication" is flimsy, at best. I can almost guarantee you that no ground will be gained. Now, once she is ready to R, then I suggest a good pro marriage counselor who will work with you both.
Starsky is a succeful DBer, and he could be a lot of help to you. He usually hangs around this forum when visits the board.
Devaste, you are getting spot-on advice here, and I agree with everything Sandi has said. Considering she is a former wayward (EA) wife, and my wife had an active PA (and I saved my marriage and today we couldn't be happier) . . . you're getting agreement from BOTH sides of the fence here.
It's really hard for us, especially as men, to NOT shield our wayward spouse from the consequences of her decisions. Especially when they're so destructive. But YOU CANNOT CONTROL HER (this was the single hardest thing for me to get!!!), and she's going to have to put on her BGPs (Big-Girl Panties) and begin to feel the loss of you.
Until she ends her contact with this other man, you really can't begin to make any demands much less try to reconcile your marriage. Right now you should be in the "protection" phase (financially, legally -- even your physical health); hopefully you will have a chance later for what we call "piecing" (reconciliation), and letting her know what your dealbreakers would be for her to come back to the marriage.
In the meantime, WORK ON YOURSELF. Work on those things that YOU know you honestly need to work on, and any of her PRIOR (pre-A) marital complaints were. I say "prior" because a man or a woman caught up in an affair will often re-write marital history, and distort current truth in order to justify what they are doing. But YOU know, in your heart, which of her earlier marital complaints were legitimate, and which jibe with those things that you yourself know you need to work on.
This will be the hardest thing you ever had to do in your life, but it CAN be done.
Wow, I am so grateful for all the support and great advice. I have come to realize that this is the only way that I have a chance to save my marriage. I also have realized that I need I focus on me and my children. I am doing well physically and mentally (as well as can be). I am focusing on GAL, and continuing on.
Where I have not done well is with the separation. We had a big fight last night because I would like to set up a schedule, and she wants no part of this. I may have to move past this, and go legally, because she seems to think she can just come and go as she pleases. This does not work for my children, or for me.
All of your advice and support makes so much sense. Yes it will be hard , but I am strong enough to follow through. Either way, I will be better off. I have truly begun working on my me, and bettering myself. I also recognize which complaints are legitimate , and I am working on those as well. This will be a long and difficult journey, which I plan on coming out of a better person and in a better relationship whether it's with my WAW or someone else. Of course. I hope it's my WAW
Thanks again to Sandi, broken, and starsky. It's a real lifesaver to go through this with DB help. I will keep everyone posted. Going to try and get this schedule set up today or tommorrow
Where I have not done well is with the separation. We had a big fight last night because I would like to set up a schedule, and she wants no part of this. I may have to move past this, and go legally, because she seems to think she can just come and go as she pleases. This does not work for my children, or for me.
Instead of the marriage counseling you've been going to to work on your "interactions," would she agree to see a good FT (family therapist) -- "to learn to work thru this phase with what's best for the kids" ??
Any good FT worth their salt would point out to her the importance of structure and schedules in your kids' lives with this stuff.
I've been trying to get a schedule established , but she is refusing , and says I'll have to take her to court. Any disagreements we have had are revolving around this. I have pulled back and am not mean, but am much less supportive. I have also removed wedding pictures and am no longer wearing my ring. Any thoughts on this? I look at it as we are separated, and I need to move on myself. Trying to change my role as both starsky and Sandi2 have recommended. It is indeed hard as I am tempted to keep her close to me as much as I can.
I'm not snooping, spying etc, just trying to go on with my life. Will take time for sure. Thanks again for all the advice
Do what feels authentic to you regarding the pictures and your wedding ring. Do NOT do it to get any sort of REACTION out of her (which is what I've seen most people do). It's an intensely personal decision, and tough to counsel someone on -- right up there with "should I still have sex with my wayward spouse?"
Will she not agree that a schedule is in the best interests of the KIDS?
I still wear my wedding ring and have our wedding pictures up. W and I still living together during D proceedings ...i think if I took the pictures down she would love it. But the way I look at it is if she doesn't want the pictures up she can take them down. Most of them are on our masterbedroom dresser and that room is hers now and out of bounds for me.
I'm interested in hearing others opinion on whether I should take pics down and not wear my ring ..would that be part of lrt ...detaching and letting go.
Me: 47 Her: 45 M 18 years T 22 years S-6 D-9 Separate rooms 1/5/14 Wife filed for divorce 2/5/14
It is a tough decision. Part of me wants to take the ring off because I feel if I leave it on, then I'm showing her I'm waiting around, and it feels like I'm protecting her from questions. The one thing is the pictures up is good for my kids. My three year old just asked me why mommy isn't coming home. It's tough to hear from them. I wish they would ask her
I think I ultimately have been taking it on or off to get a reaction out of her. Which is completely wrong. In fact the first time I did it it backfired, and she took hers off, and hasn't put them back on. Lesson learned the hard way. I understand it's a personal decision, and a tough one. In terms of moving on, it's tricky to know what is and feels best. I'll wrestle a bit with this.
Starsky, she doesn't seem to think a schedule is a good idea. Really, I think she's being selfish, as she has a rotating schedule, so it will be a nightmare for her, with absolutely no support. I worry about the safety of my kids a bit. I don't want them being used as pawns to have her realize what she is doing. However the reality of a divorce is she will not have my support when she has the kids. They are my number one concern. Another tough thing to think about. No one said this was easy
Thanks again everyone for the advice and comments. Sure is nice to bounce things off the people here
I still wear my wedding ring and have our wedding pictures up. W and I still living together during D proceedings ...i think if I took the pictures down she would love it. But the way I look at it is if she doesn't want the pictures up she can take them down. Most of them are on our masterbedroom dresser and that room is hers now and out of bounds for me.
I'm interested in hearing others opinion on whether I should take pics down and not wear my ring ..would that be part of lrt ...detaching and letting go.
Not sure about the rings, but why did YOU leave the marital bedroom??
Starsky, she doesn't seem to think a schedule is a good idea. Really, I think she's being selfish, as she has a rotating schedule, so it will be a nightmare for her, with absolutely no support. I worry about the safety of my kids a bit. I don't want them being used as pawns to have her realize what she is doing. However the reality of a divorce is she will not have my support when she has the kids. They are my number one concern. Another tough thing to think about.
One of the first things the family court will have you do in ANY divorce (or even legal separation, if your state has them) situation is SET UP A CO-PARENTING SCHEDULE/PLAN.
She might as well get used to it now. I would insist on seeing a good FT together, and tell her you will defer to what the FT thinks.
In hindsight I should have made her leave the marital bedroom instead I just went and slept in the other room ...now I don't want the fight to tell her I'm taking our bed back ...but maybe I should tell her that ...i would hate for her to move out because I think with her around its better for the kids and for her to hopefully see my 180 and maybe have a change of heart ...
Me: 47 Her: 45 M 18 years T 22 years S-6 D-9 Separate rooms 1/5/14 Wife filed for divorce 2/5/14
WAW was at the house helping this evening. She tried to put the kids to sleep, couldn't, and then started crying, saying kids would be better of without her. I didn't say anything, kind of detached, and let her wallow in self pity.
All was fine, until as she was crying, her phone went off, and I saw the text messages that had been sent. I know I shouldn't have looked, but I couldn't resist. It was all sexting etc between her and the OM.
I managed to put it out of my mind, but then as we were building bunk beds for the kids, it came to a point where I asked my wife if she really thought I was happy about the sitch. Of course she proceeded to tell me she had been unhappy for years etc. At this point, I lost it and used several inappropriate words that described her activities and what I had seen on the phone. Yes, snooping does not help.
Regardless, she freaked out, began bawling, and then it got scary. She took a knife, and made like she was going to slit her wrist. I managed to calm her down, and get the knife out of her hands. She was extremely emotional, and took a long time to settle down. Of course I felt horrible.
I am concerned about her mental health, but I was so distraught by what I had seen on her phone, that I couldn't help myself when I got hurt by her comments. Now I feel like I have lost any progress I had made, although really, she has already moved out . I just want to be better than that
My message to myself is that no good comes from snooping. This is a painful realization. Continuing on this bent, no good comes from asking a WAW R questions. You all have told me as much
On a positive note, we are supposedly setting up a schedule. I'll believe it when I see it. Tomorrow will be a fresh start and a return to my DB and WAW skill development . Hard not to beat myself up because of a backslide
I'm a little confused. Is she living in the home now? I thought you asked her to leave and that she was staying with a friend...and preparing for her own place. Did she come back home? If so, would you explain.
You really must work hard not to say and do things in an attempt to get reactions from her. If you told her to leave b/c she was cheating........and then you let her come back home without resolving any issues, do you know the message you gave her? A LBH might as well put an ad in the newspaper that says, "Weak and needy H who will tolerate cheating W.".
I say to apply the same to things like the rings and pictures. If you do take the rings off and put the pictures away......keep it that way untill full reconciliation has occurred. It would not be good to do it......only to turn around to put the rings back onand hang the pictures up again. Reversing the decisions are telling her, "it is okay to have an affair, honey, I don't you worrying about losing me.". On the contrary, she should worry about what this A has cost her. And not only do these wishy-washy actions tell your WAW how weak and undecisive you are, but it tells your family, friends, etc. And talk about confusing kids! So really think it over thoroughly before doing it.
Has your W ever attempted to hurt herself in the past? I usually wonder when people threaten suicide in front of the other person........so as to be rescued. To me, their threats are saying, "Look at me, I have a knife and I am going to slit my wrists....so you better stop me." I don't believe they intend to take their life at all. They have a different outcome in mind. They threaten for other reasons. I think she may have poor coping skils and trying to get certain results........just as you do. However, the experts say to take threaths of suicide seriously. Did you call the police, take her to the hospital, shield the kids, .......what? Did your children witness this? Aside from not knowing her true intent, her behavior is not rational and that should be dealt with. Has she been, or Is she currently under the care of a psychologist?
Just a comment about her resisting a schedule. Implementing a schedule requires a certain amount of stability and responsibility. Where you may see the sensibility in having one, she may see it as pressure.......the means of accountability of her time and whereabouts. I think that may be what she's really fighting against.
You really must stop the R talks! Every time you try to convince your W that the M can be saved, you shoot yourself in the foot. The WAW in an A will not hear what you say. She watches what you do.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Sorry for the confusion. I did ask her to leave and she was with a friend, and she has now moved to her own place. Part of the problem has been to spend time with the kids she was coming to the house. She has not been allowed back to the house. I set conditions which she has not met before that's even discussed. I said she had to have NC with OM, and want to work on MR. Of course, these are far off right now
With respect to hurting herself, she has had thoughts before but never acted on them. She has seen a psychiatrist before , and has taken meds before. To be honest, I think she experienced post partum with our second that was never diagnosed. I didn't file a police report, but I am going to contact our doctor. I do worry that I shouldn't be helping her, but her safety is my concern. Totally agree she has poor coping skills. Very apparent one the last several years.
Our conversations haven't been about our future, but you are right, consistent avoidance of any relationship talk is what I am striving for. At the same time, consistency is the key. My ring is off, pictures are up . This won't be changing until any reconciliation or divorce occurs. I feel strongly about this. If my wife is having an A, she has made a choice and there are consequences.
Totally agree, the schedule resistance is because she wants to be involved when it is convenient, and disappear when it isn't. I've had enough of her just popping in and out. I'd like to change the locks to the house, but the lawyer has advised against this. Right now, the kids live with me full time, and she is over a few nights a week to make dinner etc, predominantly when I am at work. She also helps out with activities on the weekend. She is not living at the house in any way
I'm trying to detach, and a struggle I'm having is how much to help her . For example, she is taking the bed that the bunk beds replaced. I don't really want to help her move it, as I feel she isn't my wife, why should I. I struggle because I have always been there for her, and still want to , but I realize she needs to find her own way.
Hope that clarifies things Sandi2, and as always, thanks for the advice. So helpful in so many ways
Just to follow up, I realized I didn't completely answer. No the kids did not witness it, they were asleep. I didn't call the police, but I have let her doctor know. She feels I violated her trust by doing this, but personally, although I agree with you on her wanting to be rescued and see my response, I felt its a serious thing to threaten.
Should I not be allowing her in the house period, or should I continue to allow access with the kids? She doesn't want the kids at her new place, which is fine with me. They mean the world to me, and the thought of having a night away from them devastates me......
Just to follow up, I realized I didn't completely answer. No the kids did not witness it, they were asleep. I didn't call the police, but I have let her doctor know. She feels I violated her trust by doing this, but personally, although I agree with you on her wanting to be rescued and see my response, I felt its a serious thing to threaten.
First of all, she is in no position to declare violation of trust!! Secondly, she kind of told off on herself by getting angry at you reporting it to the doctor, b/c that was not her intended purpose of the incident.
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Should I not be allowing her in the house period, or should I continue to allow access with the kids? She doesn't want the kids at her new place, which is fine with me. They mean the world to me, and the thought of having a night away from them devastates me......
Here is what I observe in like situations. WAW has A and H kicks her out, or she decides to leave. But he gets bogged down in co-parenting issues. You say you want her to stick to a schedule and help with the kids activities. You say you won't allow her to stay at the house, and you really would like to change locks.......but she comes in and cooks a few times a week. You take off your ring but leave pictures up on the wall. You still have a desire to help and recue, but ponder over moving a bed for her. So, these are common complexities I see in other stitches, as well.
I think there are two basic avenues people take when the W is in an A and has left the home. One is more the tough love approach with very definite and clear lines drawn in the sand. No cake eating allowed, etc. The life she once had as your W stops immediately and you basically keep her out of the picture until she ends the A and is willing to reconcile and work on the M. And I can't emphasize the latter part enough. Too many LBH'S take the W back "before" she is ready to roll up her sleeves and begin the hard, hard work on the M.
The second approach is the more common one I see here on the board, but IMO, it is not necessarily the best. I think the idea is for the LBH to show her how wonderful he can be, and try to inspire her to choose him over the OM. That is the extremely short version. This is a very difficult lifestyle b/c it can continue indefinitely. The WAW gets her needs met by OM/A and H/family. She has the best of both worlds, so to speak. In the meantime, the LBH feels like a doormat while he watches his W constantly eat cake and never warm up to him in the MR and especially romantically.
There are many who try to mix the two approaches and get very confused over its complexity. B/c when you have children, especially old enough to be in various activities, you soon realize just how tough it is to do it all by yourself. Plus, most men want their W to continue being a parent, if for no other reason.....for the sake of his kids. Yes, it can get quite complicated. One reason being, the WAW and LBH seldom agree on anything.
My personal opinion, and I believe MWD teaches, that when the bomb is dropped.....you go straight into the LRT. In her DR book, she even says that if the LRT does not work and the WAS refuses to end the A, get a lawyer. So many people seem to overlook that little sentence in her book. Plus, many LBS are just not ready to file for that step, so she gives her advice on how to coop while the S is having an A. I suppose that's why DBing is misunderstood by some to think it is doormat tactics. But it isn't. It is the choices of the LBS.
So while I tend to take the tougher side, it is still your life and your choices to make. I will try to help where I can. So that leads me to your current situation. If it were me, I would first ask her if she would participate in family therapy. I have no personal experience with it, but if Starsky encourages it (and I've seen where he does quite often), it is good in my book. I have had personal experiences with just common counselors, and It never helped.
I do believe you need guidance in establishing some of these boundariesn while separated from your W. There again, if I understand it....Starsky may know of FT helps with these issues.
I can give you a close VP of the WAW in an A. Your W resorts to using dramatic tactics to get her way, or to escape a difficult moment....or be rescued. As long as it "works" to get the desired effects, she will continue. So, I suggest you discuss some of these tactics either here or in therapy, to get an unbiased VP. It can be difficult for the one closest to that individual. And I certainly advise you to follow up with the doctor for advice regarding another incident where she threatens to harm herself.
If this was my spouse, I would have concerns about my children and how they may be affected with her threats of bodily harm. I would take it under serious consideration when drawing those lines (her have access to the home, keeping the children, driving the kids, etc.). I think it should be a very serious issue in a child custody case. Whether she really intended to harm herself or not isn't the point, but rather how responsible she is as a parent. She wasn't thinking of the kids!
Anyway. If I were your WAW, I would not see any clear lines drawn by you. I would think you were pi$$ed about OM, and this was a temporary fallout. In time, I will be able to come and go in the home as I please. I mean, what can you do about it? And I see you aren't wearing your ring. Is that suppose to upset me? Big deal. I notice the pictures are still up. (Now I'm talking as though it is your W. it's not my advice.). So now you don't think you can help me move one lousy bed, but I can come to the house three times a week and cook and keep the kids b/c that helps YOU! I am not allowed in "our" house when it is not convenient for YOU. Oh, and about that so called schedule you want to have. You simply want to control my life! Well I will do whatever I please b/c I am done with this M. Now I'm crying b/c you are so mean, you kicked me out of my own home, with no place to go, which proves you never loved me. You never cared about how I felt about anything. As long as you got your way about everything! Blah, blah, boo-hoo........I will cry and if it doesn't move you to comfort and reassure me, then I will do something more drastic to make you feel sorry.
Not so nice, huh? If you feel conflicted, just know she is much worse. Even without her other mental issues, she would be operating out of sheer emotions b/c that is what a WAW in an A does. What a mess, if the H doesn't get his head screwed on straight and operate from his moral and spiritual standards, instead of his emotions. My heart just hurts for those children! Yes, it is a disfunctional home. Guess who needs to be the one in charge? This family needs a leader. The most assurance you can give those kids is to let them see you standing tall, demonstrating to them how to apply stength, integrity, and leadership during these bad times. You don't have to be a super hero, but if you can apply these characteristics, you will definitely be "their" hero. And that is the most highly valued position any of us could ever hope to have in life. Btw, do the kids know why their mother is not living with them? Do they know she doesn't want them at "her place"? What have they been told?
I think that men have a window of time that they can get things into place, so to speak, that can have positive influence on the WAW's decisions. But if he doesn't know what his own standards are and questions everything to the point he is getting buried in all her "stuff", I personally believe he will loose a lot of ground. The sooner you know your own self.........I mean you know what you cannot and will not tolerate in your life..........and you are honest enough to know what you cannot live without, the sooner you will have a clearer picture of where to draw those boundaries.
Get yourself straightened out. Fix your bad stuff. Get help with it. Whatever it takes to be a better man and father. Those are the two top priorities. Then becoming a better H will be much easier.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
That's incredible advice. I really realized when you spoke as my WAW, I have been completely inconsistent. I'm sending mixed messages all the time. Doesn't make any sense to me, how could it to her.
After reading your post, and the last few days thinking a lot, I have decided to go with the tough love approach. We had a conversation again today regarding scheduling, and I structured it as providing space for her and myself, and she is now receptive to it. We are meeting with a FT on Thursday.
I have taken down the pictures, and although my children have not been told exactly what is happening, they are not oblivious. I have suggested we have a family meeting where we explain what is going on. My wife is adverse to this, as she does not want to receive blame.
Our conversation today revolved around the kids. She keeps bringing up relationship conversations which I strive to avoid at this point.
My lines and boundaries have been set.
At this time, out only interaction will be around the kids transferring etc. We will be polite, but no friendship or support At this time, I have no interest in a relationship with her, we are not even close to that She will do activities certain days, and me the others. I am fortunate and have support most all the time. She will not, but I cannot be concerned
She was upset today that the rest of my family didn't interact with her at skating lessons. I said that I was no longer going to be protecting her. And then, she said I will be sorry , and again hinted at suicide. As we have noticed, she tends to threaten this to try and get a response that I care I believe. She was also suggestive and flirtatious as well. I think this is what you referred to as "tempt checking". I avoided any conversation and her advances, as tough as it was. I left the room to go for a cold shower. My plan is to implement the schedule starting Friday.
Perhaps the thing that spoke the most to me from your post, is as the LBS, I have no interest in being a doormat. You were spot on in how you get distracted into having your WAW around to help out. And I have been bending over backwards to make sure house is always clean, lunches made, laundry done etc. I need to stand up for myself, and make changes for myself
The things I have been working on are my parenting style, communication with my kids, and I guess my WAW, as well as improving my confidence and self-esteem. Part of that stems from the rejection I have just experienced. I have also become a much better listener, and am appreciating other peoples viewpoints a lot more. I have also determined that I would like my WAW in my life. I still care very deeply for her. However her A is a non starter for me. Nothing will happen until that is ended etc. I am starting to realize I can only control my own actions. This is so key. It's really about me!
My wife agreed with lots of the things we discussed today. This was a change from normal. However, I have no expectations that anything will change on her end.
There's not much I can add to Sandi's EXCELLENT advice, and I'm in a bit of a rush at work this morning, but I did want to add this:
You should have called 911 when your wife threatened to cut herself. "A", she needs help, and "B" you will have established both a police and a medical file which will be useful if there is ever a 2nd attempt. You need to protect your kids right now, and if you're wife is willing to be some combination of not-well-enough and foolish enough, let her play into your legal hand.
All you need to say was "I was understandably alarmed at your behavior, and I'm not equipped to help you."
You're still protecting her, and she's going to continue to play that card until such time as she learns that it's no longer effective.
In retrospect, I do wish I had called the police. The risks are far too great, and it's my kids at risk. Good advice
Just had a question, I've noticed there is huge variation on exposure. I believe the DB technique is to not expose the affair. I have wrestled with this a bit. While her family and my family immediate know, I would like to expose her in the online world where the two interact, and professionally as well. However , I haven't done this as I feel I am doing this to get a reaction out of her, as well as stop the affair, taking away some of the secrecy etc. Anyone that has asked I have told, and I am telling more people as time goes. This follows along with not protecting her anymore.
My DB coach has also advised against outing them. I have followed this advice as well. Any thoughts from people out there?
Thanks again for all the help . It's so nice to bounce ideas off others who have been through this type of thing
In retrospect, I do wish I had called the police. The risks are far too great, and it's my kids at risk. Good advice
Just had a question, I've noticed there is huge variation on exposure. I believe the DB technique is to not expose the affair.
You would be correct -- definitely not in the DB catechism. It worked for me (and others), but I do wish I had exposed to a smaller circle of people.
You can google it, as it's certainly not some fringe method -- it's well within the mainstream infidelity movement. Just very strong opinions on both sides.
Since she has "threaten" again (saying you would be sorry), I believe you should not expose her to everyone at this time. I think you need a professional's advice b/c your W is emotionally abusing you with her frequent threats to harm herself (or maybe others). I doubt seriously any DB coach will tell you to expose, ever. Exposure is not part of their program, but there are other programs that have it. And, whether she's serious or not, you still have to take responsibility for how you respond. If she threatens one minute and flirts the next, the girl is obviously unstable. Who knows what she might attempt if she felt exposed to her entire world? I sure don't know.
Exposure is a controversial subject on this board. DB doesn't encourage it. I believe some former members were banned due to trying to help, or encourage, others to expose, but IDK. But the mods watch some of us old timers, and especially those of us who believe using a tougher approach. I'll just say, we have to be careful how we word things.
Exposure worked well in Starsky's stitch. However, in my stitch it would not have worked well at all. I was not quite in the shape your W seems to be, but if I had been exposed to everyone, I believe I would have reacted badly and made some very poor decisions. I'm not saying you should buckle under emotional blackmail, but I'm telling you to be wise in this. I for one, will not encourage you to expose her while she is threatening to do harm.
Another thing to think about is how quickly and extensively you switch to taking a tough love approach from the softer stand you've had. Don't bite off more than you can swallow at one time. Now if it were not for her mental instability, I would probably be telling you to turn up the heat. However, due to the state she's in, I strongly suggest you slow your fast planning down some. I know you said you've done a lot of thinking, but you need to do more before acting. I often see a LBH go from one extreme to the other too quickly, and he doesn't get the results he thought he would......then says DBing didn't work for him. I'm not backing down on anything I've said previously, don't misunderstand, but I don't want you to fire the gun and then come back and ask what to do next. KWIM? Get your plan down pat before you act! And wait until you have more advice & information under your belt.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Yes, I see the wisdom in a soft changing of stances, and really getting my plan down. I am taking the kids away for a week, in a week, where I expect NC, which will help enforce a bit of this I think
Today, she was at the house while I was at work. We have a nanny as well, so she does not have to be here. When I got home, I told her she could go, I was good. I said this because I didn't want her to think I need her. She got very offended, and told me I was giving her mixed messages, not thanking her for making dinner etc, but then telling her to leave. Talk about reinforcing how I need to send a consistent message. However, coming to the house to make dinner for the kids etc is her need.
She feels guilty as she has made herself unavailable tomorrow to go visit the OM. I'm just putting it out of my mind at the moment as I can't control it. It will be harder tomorrow. It kills me to think that after all that has gone on, the pain that has been caused, she is so confused and scared that she escapes to the OM. My wife has a history of some OCD, some anxiety, and some depression. She avoids lots of things because of her addictive personality. My fear is her A has become addictive. She agreed with me when i brought it up when this first broke. I have not brought this up or months now, as it is not appropriate anymore.
On a side note, she hired people to move the bed, a couch and some other stuff today while my two older kids were in school, so that is solved.
I will take more time to reflect and plan, but I'm really leaning towards tougher love. The consistent emotional fragility card that is being played by her will reduce for now any exposure options. I feel I did too much of this early on when I first found out. I know how badly that did for me, so I need to be cautious and continue with my plan.
As always, thanks for the advice. It helps me reflect and keep my head on as best I can. As I have said, it is life saving in many ways. I appreciate the posts very much.
Just to clarify, I am not suggesting you go soft. I am saying you need to get your priorities in order. First on your list should be protection (physically, mentally, financially. Etc.) of your children, as well as yourself.
Have you chosen a FT and made an appointment? Have you received legal advice? Have you taken steps to protect your finances? Established an activity schedule around the kids and some type of visitation schedule? You will need to decide if their mother can come to the house to visit and how that will be handled. See where you stand legally and look at your options.
As she said, she is obviously confused about your signals, and that is why you need to give your attention to the most important things first........before you jump into exposure and those type issues, but that's just me. Starsky's experience was more extensive and he can advise you better than I can.
Remember, you are not dealing with rational person. You better be serious about your decisions b/c you will be playing with fire! Never think she wouldn't wipe you out financially, leave with your kids, or anything else she may decide. That is why I said to use wisdom. And you have to admit, you have let your emotions dictate your decisions up to this point.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
So yes, I have made a FT appointment on Thursday. I have met with a lawyer, who has been giving me guidance in what to do to keep my kids, as well as my finances. They have also been advising me as we go down this road with respect to staying in the family house, and the ramifications of her leaving. I have taken over mortgage payments etc as per her recommendations.
Our activity schedule is going to be developed on Thursday. I worry about the kids safety on their own with their mom. I have not decided how to approach this. It is very difficult, as my kids emotional health and physical health is key as well.
I don't think I have gone soft. I agree with you, it's a matter of not reacting with emotion, and dictating based on my plan. Totally agree, poor emotion based decisions and non rational person equals fire for sure.
Slow, steady, and smart is the way to go. I need to slow down and be smart with my interactions and decisions. Gut wrenching and scary times for sure.
When I got home, I told her she could go, I was good. I said this because I didn't want her to think I need her. She got very offended, and told me I was giving her mixed messages, not thanking her for making dinner etc, but then telling her to leave. Talk about reinforcing how I need to send a consistent message.
This one's easy, Dev -- treat her as you would a neighbor that you've decided to let room at your place. Would you say "thank you" to such a person if they made you dinner? OF COURSE YOU WOULD! Be civil, even polite. Just don't act like her HUSBAND right now (she has fired you from that role for the time being), or her BFF.
So yes, I have made a FT appointment on Thursday. I have met with a lawyer, who has been giving me guidance in what to do to keep my kids, as well as my finances. They have also been advising me as we go down this road with respect to staying in the family house, and the ramifications of her leaving. I have taken over mortgage payments etc as per her recommendations.
Our activity schedule is going to be developed on Thursday.
Our activity schedule is going to be developed on Thursday. I worry about the kids safety on their own with their mom. I have not decided how to approach this. It is very difficult, as my kids emotional health and physical health is key as well.
Considering your wife's recent (and past) emotional instability, I worry about this as well. It's why I wish you had called 911 when she threatened to cut herself. If it were me, I would make legal moves to push for supervised-only visitation, but THAT'S JUST ME. You may have to just monitor the situation very closely to make sure your kids are being properly cared for. They DO make these things like voice-activated recorders and nanny-cams, y'know. Just sayin'.
If you are working when W comes to cook dinner for the kids, does the nanny ever stay while she's there? I was just thinking it would be another adult around.
You will discuss this concern with the FT, right?
I'm relieved to hear you have accomplished these things.
Don't be surprised if she tries to cancel the last minute on FT.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Yes, I currently have the nanny there with her at night, because of the concerns we have all noted. Having the access at my house allows a bit of safety and control over anything else happening, particularly if the nanny is there also
I have purchased a Dropbox camera, and I will look for a voice activated recorder. .
Feel like I am making slow safe and steady progress. Now to distract myself while I know she is going to see OM tonight .....
Thanks again Sandi2 and Starsky. Always much appreciated is your expertise (that was my yoda voice).
So just to confirm, tomorrow when I see her at my daughters soccer wind up dinner, I should treat her as a friendly neighbour? Even though inside I am devastated that she went to see OM. I will not of course bring any of that up, just difficult to wrap my head around this detachment as being a positive thing, but I know it is. I can put on my happy face anyways, as tonight has been much harder to stomach. My kids keep me distracted and happy, they are my angels
She also sent me a text while she was there. I was torn if I should respond, but I feel it didn't warrant a response, as A) I didn't want to talk to her and B) I felt she was trying to check in with me. I worry a bit that she will feel " see, I text him, and he doesn't respond, he never cared about me". This is opposed to the message that I am trying to send that I do not accept or approve of her A.
I'm unsure where to draw my line still, as I do want to talk to her, but I know any conversation I would have got into tonight probably would have not gone well. As well, I would have felt worse if I responded and then heard nothing back.
Ah, sometimes the frustration of this sitch can be overwhelming. I cannot control it, only me. So hard to implement what I want to do, but I'm trying
Your ideas and concern over what your W may feel or think are logical, however, she no longer thinks with the same frame of mind that she once did. She has entered another zone altogether.
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just difficult to wrap my head around this detachment as being a positive thing, but I know it is. I can put on my happy face anyways, as tonight has been much harder to stomach.
It works in a very positive way. The detachment has a couple of purposes. One, it helps the LBH to stop putting all his focus on the stitch and start focusing on getting better, GAL, etc. Second, when he steps back, it takes pressure off her. It may not stop her A or fix their problems, but I would say it is the first step in that direction.
One word about putting on your happy face. Until you can actually feel it from your heart, just practice looking as if you are please with yourself. You are "happy-giddy" over seeing her. The whole PMA is so that "you" start getting stronger and happier with your life with or without her in it. And, if you can do it right....she will notice, but the point is to do it for yourself and not her.
Here's what a lot of guys don't understand about the heart of a WAW in an A. Once, it would have thrilled her to see your face light up when you saw her. But now, if you act like some love-sick pup, or you get all giddy when she gets around you....it will turn her off like you wouldn't believe! This is not the girl you married!
"If you were doing it for her (and I'm not saying to do that, but I know some of you do), then I would use the old expression we used back in my dating years and say play hard to get. Believe it or not, that will work better with a WAW than almost anything you could do.
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She also sent me a text while she was there. I was torn if I should respond, but I feel it didn't warrant a response, as A) I didn't want to talk to her and B) I felt she was trying to check in with me. I worry a bit that she will feel " see, I text him, and he doesn't respond, he never cared about me".
Do not respond if she doesn't ask a direct question, or if it's about the kids, house, etc. Even though she's in an A, some WAW's still want to keep tabs on the H, b/c somemost all of them want to eat cake.
The later part--" see, I text him, and he doesn't respond, he never cared about me"--applies to what I said above. She may even say that out loud, but it will be to justify what she's doing....not b/c she is wanting you to show how much you care. She is not in that zone now.
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I'm unsure where to draw my line still, as I do want to talk to her, but I know any conversation I would have got into tonight probably would have not gone well.
I would suggest not trying to have a conversation at games and other public events. You don't have to ignore her or act mad/cold, etc. But that's not the time or place for a couple on the brink of D to even try to have a conversation past a few words about the game or weather. Don't try to sit with her or act like you are still a "couple". Let her "feel" her decisions.
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As well, I would have felt worse if I responded and then heard nothing back.
Oh, did you mean a conversation by texting? Well, here's the thing, don't set yourself up for disappointment by having expectations of her.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
When she texts you, DO respond -- just not right away (assuming it's not urgent/about your kids). In an hour or two, just reply with something "sorry, busy day -- just saw this. ____________ (then respond to whatever was asked)."
As for how to be around her, if she was just IMMEDIATELY with OM, you don't want to send a vibe like that's perfectly ok. You want to send a vibe that your upbeat-ness and cheerfulness is that you're upbeat about YOURSELF, and that while you never would have wished these recent events upon yourself, you are learning to grow as a man and you're becoming more content with who you are.
I know, that's tough to pull off.
In both instances, try to plow the fertile middle row. No more passive-aggressive, wild swings between "neediness/pursuit" and "anger/scorn." RESOLVE. CONTENTMENT. PERSONAL GROWTH. And a little MYSTIQUE. That's the vibe you want to give off.
Time to get your mojo back, Dev. What "guy" things are you doing for YOU these days??? Any old passions (music, sports, hobbies, volunteer work, etc.?) you gave up that you've always thought about re-pursuing??
Thanks again for the advice. It's mostly what I thought, which is a relief. It's incredibly challenging to change that mind frame of my WAW not being my W. Especially around people that have known us for a long time.
Yes, having no expectations is key. I'm nervous about her cancelling for the FT appt, as you said Sandi2. Guess we will see tomorrow.
Starsky, I have started to reconnect with some friends that I hadn't seen for awhile. Life kept us busy and kids added to that. Also started to play a bit of golf, but currently , having the kids with me all the time makes that a bit tricky. I do need to go out at night more. I've hesitated against that because before it was my WAW who would come and look after the kids. I don't like that setup. Definitely a goal for the next two weeks. I've got better support now from my family, so that's also a plus. Time constraints have been removed and they can help more if needed.
My friend is going to Vegas for a week, I may go down for a few days, if I'm up for it. I hesitate to leave my kids right now as they need me, or so I feel. At the same time, I want to be strong and show leadership for them.
Thanks for the help on how to act tonight, and I'm feeling a lot of what you both are saying is the way to go. Guess your vets for a reason .
Haha, I was confused about that but I figured it out . Took me a few reads
So last night was fine , we took seperate cars to wind up , but she left early to take two kids back to house against my wishes, and then left while I was putting them to bed.
She's noticed I have changed my interactions with her, and I'm sure she will be watching. She came right out and asked me if I had changed the way I was treating her. Saw a relatives phone number on call display, and assumed I had told my whole family . Started to get mad. I didn't respond or say anything except that I had not told my extended family anything.
Then the evening got interesting. Her cousin called me for information due to rumours he'd heard, as did her sister . While I spoke with them a bit, I directed them to Lindsay for more information if they wished.
Meeting with the FT in a few hours. Not been cancelled by her yet.
Her birthday is coming up next week . I plan to be out of town. I don't plan on making a card or giving her a present. She had he nerve to ask me to buy her a new laptop?? Not sure what planet she's on, but I have little interest in that.
With respect to GAL, I have also enrolled in a climbing course and a photography course. Two interests of mine
Next two weeks will be interesting. However, this is not a sprint , and I'm starting to realize that . The pressure from people in the know continues to build all the time. I just put it out of my head. I realize they just want to see me out of pain , and think a divorce is the easiest way for that . Don't think they realize how I would grieve even more with a divorce
Ok, so yesterday after our FT, my W asked to go for a walk. I should have declined, as she proceeded to tell me that I controlled her and prevented her from achieving her goals by having kids with her . This was both shocking and frustrating to me. It also shook me to my core, because it gave me some insight into her viewpoint right now, and where I am perceived in this. I know you already showed me this Sandi, but man, that stung last night. I was called manipulative, controlling and all kinds of bad words . I really just need to not spend any time or have any convos about anything at this time
We are establishing a schedule, and the FT is not concerned about her self harm. Not sure why, but she seemed to think my W was more stable than I think. Doesn't really make sense to me, and made me feel like I was imagining this was a risk.
I came away feeling like there is no hope, at all. I can't see anything positive on the horizon, which is depressing. My tough love approach that I have begun to slowly implement is working to provide space and distance, and reduce pressure, but she is really just getting further into her affair.
I am not really sure if I should now go through the process of formalizing a separation agreement, as I feel that that is part of LRT, but I understand that once I begin that process, it cannot be an idle threat. But then again, aren't I already facing a divorce?
Is starting the formalized separation agreement a good idea? Or should I just try to keep status quo with an established schedule?
Also,on a side note, she really wants to purchase new cars right now, because everytime she sees the minivan we have, she said she despises me for buying it. So difficult. I do need to get a new car, by I feel that it would be ridiculous to buy a new car until our situation is clarified a bit more. She also said yesterday she has noticed my changes , but feels they may be too late. I am really trying to avoid relationship talk etc, but she frequently brings this up
I'm just going to have to a avoid any contact I think. Argggggh, no one said this going to be easy, but I have to realize I'm not going to see any signs for awhile. I'm usually so results oriented, it's hard to change that
PATIENCE, Dev -- patience. It is WAY too early for you to expect much more than what she's spewing right now. Just put on the spew raincoat and steel yourself, as it's going to be a bumpy, messy ride.
It's PERFECTLY SCRIPT what she's saying right now. I've seen literally THOUSANDS of stories that vary very little from just two or three basic scripts, and while I know that doesn't make the sting burn any less, it IS nevertheless "normal" for someone in an affair (not to mention her other mental/emotional issues).
As for the cars, I would just suggest you tell her "considering our current marital and financial situation, I don't think that would be wise right now," and talk to your atty about it. ANYTHING NEW you provide for her right now is going to just be folded into her "customary lifestyle" should you two D or LS.
Avoid the R talks, keep focusing on your GALs, and defer to your atty on anything legal/financial . . . and protect those kids.
Most women worth their salt can see through the BS of another female. So give the FT a chance. She probably knew not to come down too hard on your W in that first meeting, if she wanted her to return.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
I appreciate your advice and realize I need to be patient.
This weekend has been interesting. It seems like she is trying to control who I see and what I do. Her cousin dropped in on Friday night for an unscheduled visit. To my chagrin, sat AM when I was out, she phoned and my kids mentioned they had seen her cousin. My phone started buzzing with repeated phone calls. I picked up finally, only to be lectured about why I didn't tell her that her cousin was coming over and ok it with her. She had noticed I put a six pack of beer in the fridge, so she assumed that I knew he was dropping in. I explained I was having a friend over on Saturday, and she demanded to know who etc. She said I am driving a wedge between us. I calmly stated her actions are doing that, and we got off the phone.
On the Friday night before this happened, she had again flipped out on me for buying a present for our nephews birthday, as I was seeing them on Saturday. She told me to stay the F .$&@ away from her family yada yada yada. Blamed me for her strained relationships with her family right now.
I think the real issue here was she was picking up the OM later that night on Friday, and I think the angrier she is with me the easier it is to justify what she is doing. Just a guess on my part. I think she picked a fight to get angry and then justify what she was doing.
I awoke the next AM on Saturday, after she had flipped out on me Friday night, to a text about how lucky the kids are to have me as a father. Not sure if that was a guilty text or what , but it is somewhat different from the tune she was singing in January when she was explaining why she was leaving. Obviously, I realize whatever she is saying she has motives.
Both times she got angry on Friday night and Saturday AM, I stayed calm, and I realized that my PMA was being affected by her attitude. No one likes to be yelled at, but I also realize arguing is pointless. As Starsky says, put on the spew jacket and suit up.
Anyways, her conference continues, more distance right now, which I think is positive. Too bad we've had an outbreak of Norwalk at my house, or I might be able to enjoy some quiet time with the kids
Thanks again for all the advice. I do realize this is long ride.
I'm obviously aware that patience will be required, especially as my WAW wife is still in an A, but I am curious to hear some people's stories of what was the breaking point for their S to either end their A, or for the LBS to move on. I'm sure everyone's timeline is different based on their individual needs. Just curious if there are some common threads out there.
Seems like A's are so common, I'm just curious if there are some commonalities for when they end and what happens to the MR
I know the typical success stories require the WAW to be remorseful, have true transparency etc, but I just wonder what gets them near that point
I came down pretty hard and swift, so my results may not be typical. My wife's affair pretty much fizzed after I exposed, and was done for good within three months. It took us I'd say two years or so of fits-and-starts piecing in order to fully reconcile and get to the "now it's better and healthier than ever" stage that we've enjoyed since.
She was interested in "doing whatever it takes" when she came back after that 3-month affair. However, like I said, we had a bunch of fits and starts for awhile thereafter, and didn't even mutually withdraw our divorce action until about 6-7 months later, instead putting it on two different 3-month temporary stays.
Here's a link to my sitch, if you want to read any of it. It's loooooong, LOL. My username used to be first "Chocolateeyes" and then "Puppy Dog Tails," and as reference my wife's affair was May-Aug 2007.
I will definitely read your thread. The fact your W was willing to come back and work on it doing whatever it takes to get it done is great . My fear is my wife will not do that . It's hard to know at this time . It's been 2 1/2 months since she was kicked out. But I have just started asserting my boundaries. Time will tell I guess . Thanks so much
So the last few days have been fine. We have taken much more space, and there have been no conflicts so to speak. I'm not really looking for anything yet, and just trying to follow LRT.
My tough love has been going OK. I have been consistent which is probably best. Also very focused on kids and me. The kids and myself are going on a holiday next week. I can't wait. The problem is my wife's BD is on the Saturday we leave. Pretty sure everyone's advice would be no card, no gift, nothing, but just wanted some advice? If we speak I will say Happy Birthday, but if I am GAL and moving on, I don't need to be providing BD Cards and gifts. Pretty sure that will just aggravate her.
Interestingly, the OM has been away this week, and I have been tempted to try and pursue when I "have my chance" so to speak. I have managed to avoid this. I have also been very tempted to expose their affair in the online and professional world in which they interact. It's very tempting, but again I know it will do no good. So frustrating to watch this happen and feel helpless beyond what I can do for myself
I'm not up to date on your sitch, but I think a simple birthday card from the kids would be fine.
I've realized that it takes a lot to be the bigger person when you're the LBS. I've often thought of how easy it would be to expose the A to friends/family if I chose to be a bitter person. But you're right- in the end, it gets you no closer to your goal.
Agree with respect to the BD card. It's hard not to do actions that you expect to get a reaction from. I need to keep doing things for me. And expect nothing
Tempting as it is to expose the affair everywhere.....definitely the wrong call at this time
The problem is my wife's BD is on the Saturday we leave. Pretty sure everyone's advice would be no card, no gift, nothing, but just wanted some advice? If we speak I will say Happy Birthday, but if I am GAL and moving on, I don't need to be providing BD Cards and gifts. Pretty sure that will just aggravate her.
I would agree with this ^^^, esp. considering you think it will only aggravate her. Other way to go (and this is what I did in my own sitch) is a "Shoebox" type (funny) card, with something practical like a $15 Starbucks gift card or something in it, and just a handwritten "Happy Birthday, Devaste" (no "Love" or anything) in it.
Either one is fine, I think. Just nothing overboard.
Starsky, who for once isn't on the hard-ass side of this one
Wow, so I've had a crazy few days, with some real despondent times here. My W is really frustrating me. I need to go to NC with her myself. I just have had enough.
Unfortunately my oldest was rushed to hospital today due to breathing difficulties, which after some meds etc. he began to fortunately stabilize.
While we were in the ER, my wife mentioned that she needed a computer. In retrospect, a 180 for me would have been to say ok, but with our current shared finances and muddled separation agreement, I hesitated. I don't really want to take on more debt pre divorce if it comes to that.
My W took this as a chance to reinforce for her how I controlled all the financial decisions etc in our house before. Looking back, she's right. I wish I had just said great idea, but I argued it a bit, and tried to get a feel for the next few months, saying maybe we should wait till our picture clears up
Unfortunately, this was perceived as controlling, and this was hammered into me and all of a sudden I am to blame for everything again. Ah, good thing I have Starsky's Spew Jacket....
I went to the gym to try and get some anger and frustration out, but to no avail. I backslid a bit when I met her to get the kids. Explained some of my frustrations, and then she left the house. I know some times these days will happen, but now, I am left to regret that I didn't recognize a great opportunity to do a 180. Man, this is tough sledding. Focus on self, focus on self, focus on kids.....my mantras.
Personally, I think you might the right decision on the computer. "A" you're correct -- considering the state of the marriage right now, it's not take to take on any more debt or major new purchases; and "B" she most likely would use it to carry on her affair with OM, online.
I forget -- does your wife work outside the home? Remind us of your financial situation, Dev.
So my W works half time outside the home, and we have a full time nanny. She is a professional, and her job allows her to do that. Currently, our finances remain linked, as per L advice.
Yes, that's the same realization I had as well. She just wanted to check with me first before doing it. It will go on the LOC. We have never carried any debt, but with floating two households here, we have taken some on.
I was wanting to argue with her on the other financial stuff she complained about. She was able to purchase whatever she wanted really. But I realize arguing is pointless right now . My actions speak louder than my words. Need to constantly remember that.
One more thing that I'm questioning. Wife has birthday dinner with kids tonight at restaurant. I've been invited, not sure if I should go or not . Anyone have thoughts. It's just my W and kids. I'm pretty torn.
I don't see why you wouldn't go. Might be nice for kids to see you together. But cut your tongue out and leave it at home before you go. Practice smiling and nodding.
Things have been going ok, but not great. I've been doing my GAL, and 180s, and they have been noticed. My WAW said something about now living with 100 ironies because I am so different. I just brushed it off, and didn't get into it.
I've been away with my kids, and came back. Minimal contact with my WAW wife and kids. She had been off on holidays as well, but had returned to work this week.
Now, as we are physically separated, I have been doing LRT. She complained she feels vulnerable when I don't respond to her texts, but I don't care. I've gotten advice from a L, who told me to maintain finances the way they are. However, I feel this really contradicts with LRT. I also know time is on my side according to lots of vets, but I'm not sure if I should be pushing to file, get a mediated agreement etc. I have determined what I want, and that is my kids. Of course it may not be that simple.
I'm trying to be aloof and mysterious as well. Bit of a funny question that I think I know the answer too already . Any harm in meeting women for coffee etc. Just as part of getting out. I understand I'm not in an emotional state to offer anything, but I just want to go out and feel good about myself. With the kids staying with me all the time, I don't get out much. I do know the bar scene violates Sandi's rules, and that's not me anyways. Of course if I was only doing it to make my WAW jealous, there would be no point I know.
So with respect to LRT, given where I'm at, I know this may take awhile. I need strength, courage and a belief that I can achieve my goals. I am trying to measure my results. I feel I had better results when I was playing nice before, she was questioning her decisions more . However clearly not enough . She still moved from her friends to her own place. So the strength and encouragement to stay on the LRT path is what I need , and continued detachment. Thanks to everyone for reading my rambling thoughts.
I've been following your thread because it seems so similar to mine, and we seem to be having the same questions at about the same times.
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I've been doing my GAL, and 180s, and they have been noticed. My WAW said something about now living with 100 ironies because I am so different.
I'm in the same place here - WAW says she sees suddenly I've become an interested parent - wonders where I was for the last 10 years, and she thinks it's all fake.
I think all we can do is keep going. Maybe they will eventually accept that it is real and not fake. That may not affect outcome of M, but it never hurts to be a better man.
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I've gotten advice from a L, who told me to maintain finances the way they are. However, I feel this really contradicts with LRT.
I did the same last week, and got the same advice. Being a harda$$ will soothe your ego, but it will be bad in D proceedings if you get there.
I don't know that it contradicts LRT - in my case, I think it makes her life entirely comfortable without me, and she can cake eat all she wants. I feel I want her to feel consequences for A, but that has to happen in a way that isn't me punishing her, it's got to be the consequences of her actions. I am still confused on this.
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Any harm in meeting women for coffee etc. Just as part of getting out. I understand I'm not in an emotional state to offer anything, but I just want to go out and feel good about myself.
Yes, you are right, you know the answer. Slippery slope, my friend. What I did was join a wine/dinner club. There are singles, solos, and couples. I enjoy it immensely. You will meet other people, women included, but it is in a safer environment. To stay honest, I imagine bringing my wife with me some day, if we get to that point. That helps me keep any relationships with the individuals in that group in bounds.
In my case, anyway, I know my WAW is still convinced that we are dysfunctional and cannot fix things. She has no interest in doing any MC together. She is working on herself and discovering bad behaviors that predate me in her life, but I am still to blame. She is fixing herself for her future without me. I have to give W time to get to a better place with herself; it can only help.
Meanwhile, I am becoming a better parent. I need time to perfect this.
I am becoming a more supportive H. It seems to be working. She sees it but doesn't believe it. This needs consistency over time.
I'm GALing and building my future support group. That needs time.
So, my advice is to use the time wisely. Is there a need to rush to an undesired outcome?
I'm not rushing there until I know that time is no longer helping.
Figure out for yourself how the time is helping your situation, and apply yourself to those areas.
Thanks for your insights. I have been following your stich as well. Quite a few similarities, except my wife has physically left .
I couldn't agree with you more on the time factor. I also do not want to rush things at this point. It's very difficult to be so patient, but becoming a better father and future partner are things that take time
Like your W, my W has had several issues predating us, as well as when we were together. In her mind, her IC will be done when she doesn't blame me for everything. This tells me she recognizes that she has a responsibility in what has happened. But right now, she said previously, she is skeptical that we can bring out the best in each other. Sounds very similar to your sitch
Meanwhile her escape to her A in relationship Disneyland continues, and I just focus on myself and the kids. As easy as that is
Thanks again for your insight, and best of luck with your continued DB ing!
In her mind, her IC will be done when she doesn't blame me for everything. This tells me she recognizes that she has a responsibility in what has happened.
Well this sounds positive actually.
I think in my W's case, she thinks her IC will be done when she's figured out why she let me make her unhappy for so long. [even though I can pull out last year's love letters that she wrote, or fb posts about going out to dinner with her love...]
BTW, did you say English was not your first language? It's very good -- wondering what your primary is?
Thanks for the English nod Zew, but while I am fluent in Spanish and Portuguese, English is my first language
I was just thinking to myself, probably the biggest problem for me is that my wife thinks she could just come back if she choose to. I don't think she feels like she has lost me at this point. Not sure if that means more GAL, and tough love. It's a fine line, that's for sure.
Noticed the computer and finances. Too funny! Not really going so well. Seems like the separation has really just allowed her more time with the OM. The schedule for parenting duties is complicated by the fact I don't trust her with the kids, and I prefer her to have them here when she is parenting. This means I'm here with them every night. I don't mind this at all, but it makes GAL very difficult.
I've been away keeping busy. Great time with the kids. Unfortunately picked places we've spent time as a family. Many memories flooded up everywhere.
When I was reading your thread, I noticed Starsky's post referring to the three things his wife didn't want to miss. I liked the first one so much, because its exactly what I have said and feel, that I decided maybe I should remind my W of this when I saw her today.
Of course, 2x4 myself , after I said it, I realized its kind of a threat, even though its a truth dart I think.
So I've been trying to do tougher love, but I fear there is too much cake eating. I'm open to any suggestions as to how I can stop this from happening.
She did say today although I've changed, she doesn't think our interaction could ever change, and then she used the example of not buying new cars a few weeks ago, which she wanted. I called her on it, saying with the current state of our relationship, I don't feel it's prudent to stretch ourselves financially, and we are not in a relationship right now, so judging my actions as they would be in a relationship is unfair. I am standing up for myself, or at least trying to. I do not wish to be a doormat. I am figuring out what my own tolerance and boundaries are.
I do worry about the loss of attraction that occurs if the W knows I know she's in an A, and she feels I am just waiting for it to end. That's why I mentioned the whole thing about not maintaining a friendship if it ends that way. Looking back, totally threat based.
I am working on the legitimate complaints about my marriage that I needed to work on, but applying them when we are separated is very hard. It's tough because its about validating her interests, her concerns, and listening to her voice and recommendations in such a way that she feels valued. Hard for me to I while I'm detaching and setting up my own life.
Her family continues to call, but she really is not listening to anyone. I struggle daily to detach. I have snooped periodically, which just confirms ongoing contact. Helps me assess if she's being truthful. I really also would like to confront the OM. But I know this is not a good idea.
I think I need to focus less on her and more on me. Easier said than done
I may switch my thread to Newcomers, seems to be much more activity there.
Really feel like there is no way this will change. I struggle daily to resist the urge to file as a last last resort technique. I fear this is the only way my WAW will change. Arghhh, the frustration is deadly. I know I need more time and patience, but I truly see her slipping away. When I listen to what she is saying compared to two months ago, it's getting more negative.....
Really feel like I've been too much of a doormat, and she's gotten her way. Time will tell I guess. I'm also starting to feel like I should just move on, and I don't need someone like her. Who knows
When I was reading your thread, I noticed Starsky's post referring to the three things his wife didn't want to miss. I liked the first one so much, because its exactly what I have said and feel, that I decided maybe I should remind my W of this when I saw her today.
Of course, 2x4 myself , after I said it, I realized its kind of a threat, even though its a truth dart I think.
This should have been brought up IN CONTEXT, preferably a response to your wife saying something about remaining friends. To initiate this convo on your own, out of the blue . . . yeah, gonna come across as a threat, or at least as some tactic.
Really feel like there is no way this will change. I struggle daily to resist the urge to file as a last last resort technique. I fear this is the only way my WAW will change.
You should never treat something as serious as divorce as some sort of DBing tactic. Even the AFTER-the-Last-Resort-Technique doesn't necessarily include filing for divorce.
Filing for divorce should be a legal, financial and even spiritual decision that you only enter into when you've tried everything else, in my opinion.
I realized too late, unfortunately. I agree with what your saying. It's not what I want to do at all. I'm just having a few down days. It will get better.
I really also would like to confront the OM. But I know this is not a good idea.
Ya, you really don't want to do that. I talked to a PI once who said people have ended up dead that way. You have no idea how OM will react when confronted. He may have a lot at stake. Could be anything from emboldened because he sees your fear, to violence, to cool calculated retribution without prejudice. OM is not your business. Besides, it will immediately get back to W, who will see it as controlling.
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I know I need more time and patience, but I truly see her slipping away. When I listen to what she is saying compared to two months ago, it's getting more negative...
Yep, mine too. Described dinner out with me and the kids the other night as "painful". It's to be expected, I guess. They are going to get better at rationalizing their actions, and it will be at our expense. And while I'd like to optimistically think that it is their fog and that it will lift, I have to admit that it might be the new reality. And if that is her new reality, the time will come when I really won't want any part of it.
So our early stage in this is to fix ourselves and determine what we really want out of a W, R and M. I think you and I are not out of this stage yet, so yes, we need time and patience. And I'll say that I think each of us has turned that focus from ourselves to W in the last week, and it's hurting us.
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I struggle daily to resist the urge to file as a last last resort technique.
Once we know what our new confident selves want, then comes the endurance test to see if W's reality can or will in any way align with ours in a timeframe that's reasonable to us. Only when you are really ready to walk would you file. And in my mind, at that point, if W wants back in, there's going to be a really high bar. And I don't mean in a retribution kind of way, but if I'm that ready to go, what would it take to get me to re-engage her demons? And if she comes back only after you filed, will you ever trust her motive? So I think filing comes when you are really, really done.
And if I'm really honest about that waiting stage, it is about me accepting that I am ready to move on, more than it is about waiting to see if she changes. [And I'm not ready to think about this yet, so I'll stop now.]
So, we have to get you out GALing more, because you need to cheer up. It has to be really hard given the age of your kids. Got any options there? Getting occasional evening kid coverage sounds like a good plan for this week, no?
My wishes to confront the OM were only in a non threatening way, more to show I am a real person, exist, and my family is real and important to me. But I totally agree it would be pointless. It would serve me for about 2 minutes, and then I would regret it. And it would be seen as controlling for sure. As I have been told, the WAW watches everything, and that would not be good for her to see
She already knows where I stand because of my little discussion yesterday. Totally agree I have turned the focus on her in the last week. Fighting to get the focus back on me.
I am trying to arrange sitting, getting out for some night activities. Friday night I had her watching the kids, and went out. I had fun, but really, she didn't ask one question about it. I know it's for me, not to expect a response from her. Just disheartening.
My short terms goals:
1)Continue to detach with zero extraneous texts not regarding kids this week 2)Exercise 5 times this week 3)Avoid any relationship discussions 4)Go out of the house twice this week 5)No snooping
We will see how these go, but should help me to work on myself and not focus on her.
Thanks for the comments. Always so refreshing to have someone's input
I had fun, but really, she didn't ask one question about it. I know it's for me, not to expect a response from her.
If you do it more often, I guarantee you won't even think about writing anything past the first three words.
BTW, mine didn't ask about it either. But she was overheard to say "I don't care. Just curious. He was probably out with his girlfriend." and two days later I caught her snooping on my phone.
Even if you got a response, it would be impossible to make sense of.
That's a good list of goals. Can't tell you how much 2) has helped me.
In FT today where we are working with a mediator to set up a schedule, W arrived late crying and "saying hates her life, how did she get here, married, divorced it doesn't matter". Although concerning for me, this took up 30 min of our session , meaning our schedule development was put off once again. This seems to be a regular tactic. I'm not sure why she keeps doing this, and I wonder if she is being sincere or stalling
I've been sticking to my goals, and have had to work hard to avoid a R discussion as W has brought it up a few times. In FT she said for me to think that our M is over, and that it is over. I realize she is saying this right now, because that is how she feels. It hurts, but it's how she feels. I fear I may have pushed her to say that. I'm trying not to do anything that pushes her. I also fear the schedule will push her away. Looking for some thoughts on this.
I have been making attempts to detach, and she has noticed, and has threatened that punishing her by detaching ( not her choice of words, but that is what I am doing), will only drive her further away. I am prepared to take this risk I guess, but it's hard, as we actually have fun when we spend time together. Of course this is cake eating.
I'm not really guessing anymore what she is thinking, and to be honest, if I hD to guess, I would assume she is scared and confused. I am. The mediator is establishing a schedule for the duration of the separation. It's not pushing towards divorce. More a way to set up boundaries for me. Projecting the reality of a divorce may be a fringe benefit, but really, either way I am realizing that I can only make my choice for me. Regardless of what my W decides, I will stop DB and make my choice as to how I proceed when I am ready. I trust I will know, instead of basing it on what my W says. Having some control helps me feel better a bit.
I can think that she has confusion and isn't sure about what she is doing all I want, but it doesn't matter. Her actions are what she is doing, and as far as I know, she is still involved in her A. I haven't snooped because there is no point right now. And I haven't asked her either.
The frustration of not being able to attempt a relationship with better communication etc and having more needs met is tough. But I am aware that I can only control myself. I find if we even talk, it is easy to get on tangents and I want to slip towards questions etc. She would like to talk tonight, but I'm worried. I don't want to get into a R talk.
Sandi, I think her mental health has stabilized as she is doing her own IC. Tough love is occurring. I'm more comfortable now with the way things sit. I still would like my kids with me at all times. I have set up precautions to monitor the situation in my house, and Nanny will be there when she is, although this is not a reality if our relationship does not rebuild
I am interested in establishing the boundaries for me, to help me GAL and detach further. My fear is that it will drive her away, but this has to be about me. I need to feel confident enough and secure enough to take this risk. Probably the biggest 180 I could do, is strengthen the appearance that I am moving on with or without her. This will take a realization by me that I can do that either way.
Anyways, enough self reflection for today. If anyone sees any areas I could improve on or change, I'm all ears. Thanks for reading.
I'm just looking to confirm the obvious, but my wife has been telling one or two people that she wishes she had fought harder for our marriage . It's tempting to tell her she still can if she likes.
However, I feel that would be pursuit, and fall into the begging and pleading that I don't want to get into. Also, falls into the category of a relationship talk.
I'm thinking it is not a good idea to open this discussion even if she brings it up tonight. What to do, what to do??
I am NO expert but my coach told me it would be ok to say "I don't want a divorce but I won't stand in your way if you do"......... Maybe someone else here can give you better advice but I really hope she means that and is willing.
Me: 35 husband:39 Sons 16 and 11 from my first marriage Twins 5 (boy/girl) Daughter 3 Affair bomb 2/27/14 He moved in with ow 3/13/14 OW kicked him out 6/15/14 4/2016 he seeks help for sexual addiction
Thanks Mr Bond, totally the way I'm leaning, and I won't, but it's tough to hear that kind of stuff from third parties.
Twinmom, thanks for your insight! I think she already knows I am willing to work on our relationship, and she knows it's not what I want. If I hadn't mentioned it already when I got sucked into previous relationship discussions, I probably would.
I think that's actually the problem. She thinks she still has me.
Thanks for the comments both of you! Wish me luck! Mantra: only talk about schedule, only talk about schedule, only talk about schedule
So last night when I got home, she was trying to get the kids to sleep. Her night at the house. However, First time in ages that she was trying to put the kids to sleep. My D had been upset earlier, and it appears that they were all having a rough time.
I wrestled with stepping in, and then decided I should not rescue her. However after an hour, she got frustrated. I did offer to help, and she stormed out saying nothing had changed in the house , she still couldn't put the kids to sleep etc. I tried to validate her, but at the same time I was thinking what the heck do you expect, you rarely put them to sleep anymore!
She stormed out, frustrated, and left to her place. I know I'm not supposed to rescue her , and she is not my friend right now . But when the kids are involved it's tough. Part of me wanted to get the kids to sleep because I had stuff to do that night. Dismissing her makes her feel ineffective as a mother, which is one of the things she struggles with right now. In fact, I've realized she needs to do much of her own work to improve herself . That's out of my control.
Still working on accepting that. It's a daily struggle
Although she is not living at the house, we try to be consistent. Whomever is putting them to sleep will read to the kids in bed, and then I will usually sing them to sleep. They all sleep in one bed due to our house size. She used to nurse our youngest until the fall when she stopped that.
After reading, I will then sit at the end of the bed, and I am also working on them falling asleep themselves. However, given the turmoil in our life right now, I give them lots of flexibility. They need the security of me.
Our previous sleeping arrangement was a disaster, with musical beds and often co sleeping. I thought it worked ok at the time, but obviously it created other problems. W and I often were in different beds.
The main issue last night was my D was seeking cuddles, and playing with my W's "milk". Although there is none, that's what she used to do, and she would often fall asleep with them. Understandably exhausted. W just got more and more frustrated, so by time I came home from work, she was close to exploding
She's a big believer in breastfeeding. It was fine with me, and I supported it, it was only at night.
It did make it difficult for me to put the kids to sleep, as I don't have milk Probably one of the issues that made my W feel trapped. We discussed stopping several times, but she was never able to wean them completely. I now realize when she did , in November, it was probably in preparation for eventually leaving. Who knows? Just a guess on my part. No mind reading here
It probably is a combination of everything. First, her extending the nursing bedtime habit, which was comforting for the kids.......and the only way they had been trained to know how to settled down to sleep, and it seemed easier for her as opposed to weaning.
Secondly, I would think the ones who were nursing would psychologically connect the loss of mother's nursing/milk with her leaving them and the home. So when she shows up to tuck them in bed, of course they want what they remember as being emotionally secure.
Her trying to get all of them to sleep in the same bed, while fighting off the one who wants to hold her breasts to go to sleep.......well, no wonder she was frazzled. Seems she would have learned on the first child. But that was her choice and now she is having to deal with the results.
Switching beds during the night or allowing kids to sleep with the parents is very difficult to overcome without the shedding of tears at some point. I know when a parent is exhausted, you will do most anything just to get some sleep, but you set yourself up for months, or years, of nightly negotiations and/or interruption of sleep.
Have you considered bunk beds for the kids? The oldest one, especially, needs to sleep without his siblings. All of them in the same bed is establishing another emotional situation that will be more difficult to break later.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
When this all first happened, I recognized this was a problem. We actually bought bunk beds and I set them up. They are working on sleeping in them. Just a matter of consistency. They've been set up and working on it for about a month now. Own beds is happening 90 percent of the time now. My W has just rarely put them to bed, so they were very excited etc. Regression to old habits. My D is very upset the last few days.
They still are unsure about what is happening beyond the immediate. The uncertainty is not good for them. Just trying to keep a schedule so they know when they will see W
Continuing with my detaching and tough love. Waiting and watching. And moving on. Keep monitoring the results of what I'm doing. Definitely created more confusion for her when she was more welcome in the house, but it was total cake eating. Makes me sometimes feel like I should go back to that. But I think I need to continue with my journey as is. Is it normal to feel so torn? Hah, I hope so
When it affects them it's very hard. Almost makes me backslide into allowing her more cake eating, but of course the whole situation affects them either way. It also won't help her realize what she is losing if I backslide. I just try to be the best I can for my and myself, and continue my journey, and try and DB my M.
Little update, thought my weekend was going pretty well , had a busy day with the kids on Sat, and spent the day shuffling around . W left the house after bringing D back to house, and then said she was meeting up with her girlfriend, was it ok if she wasn't available till Sunday AM, and I could take Sunday afternoon . I agreed, as our weekends are usually split depending on activities.
Everything was fine until the next day when my sister called me and told me she saw my W picking up OM the night before. That set me off, a bit of despair and frustration. Some mind reading on my part. It had seemed to me like contact had stopped or changed. She had even started a conversation about how she needs to feel better about her parenting and self before she is able to come back. I validated her, but made no response to indicate her coming back or anything like that was a possibility. Not sure if she was trying to check where I was at or not. We have previously discussed those conditions, and I haven't brought them up for a few months.
I had sent a text that evening regarding discussing kids schedule the next day . She said she didn't want to talk at that time. Now I know why . The next AM when she showed up, she asked if the kids could sleep over that night.
While I'm not adverse to it, as long as I know they are safe, I had changed my plans, and didn't appreciate that she wouldn't discuss it the night before. Long story short (not really ) , when my sister told me on Sunday what she saw the night before, I understood what happened. W had a crying fit saying I was mean etc when I said I'm not adverse to it, I just need more than 10 hours notice
Ultimately, I was wrong for thinking maybe she was coming around. Anytime I see or think there is progress, she runs to the OM. Has to be something there psychologically for her, but I need to not worry about her
Today and yesterday were better. I was out with a friend, and worked out. GAL continues
Things have been rolling along, I've been focused on myself as much as possible with GAL and detaching. As well as my physical fitness. I feel great, and I'm trying to knock things off the home clean up list. It's tough with my kids being so little, but whenever I get a chance, it gets done
My W has been acting pretty strange lately. Seems she is stuck between what she wants to do, and committing. She told a friend she isn't sure what she is doing. I'm obviously confused, trying to detach and move on.
She doesn't want to end her A, and she seems to want to be around the house more, but I don't allow that. Is she trying to figure out how she feels? I just don't see any good coming from her A, and can't see how she will ever change. I know that I should mind read, but it's hard not to look for little signs. This is my challenge to avoid.
Apparently, she was online at the house, left the window open, and I unfortunately looked when I got home. I need a 2x4 to stop this. As witnessing real time sexting between your W and the OM is healthy in any way. I'm still trying to forget what I saw
There is a lot of concern and interference from her family. I am not involved in this in any way. I don't save her from this, as I feel it's her own mess she has created
Probably what I am trying to do the most, and struggling with the most, is making sure that I validate her interests , but continue to detach and do what I think is LRT. I am interested if she tells me about her work, but I don't ask. I rather make sure I listen. Several texts go by from her with delayed or no response from me.
The D has not been discussed in detail at all. Out of the blue, my W brought up that if she was to come back, she would be number 5 on the needs list at our house, which was a realistic concern pre A. She also told me she right now has no interest in sharing a bed with me etc. Had to bite my tongue, and I just told her that I think there would have to be a lot of work that was done before that was even a possibility, as that I understood that was how she felt. I didn't offer anything else about how I felt. Good move or bad move?
I'm just going to keep going with my activities and keep working. This is going to take a long time. Will be interesting to see how I feel if /when I reach a point where I decide what I would actually like to do. For example, do I really want to be M to someone that has treated me like this.
One thing I forgot to add. Complete mind reading by me, but I can't figure out why she isn't telling people. Is she embarrassed , hedging her bets, scared to say what is going on, or unsure? Or all of the above? Or none. Who knows
Things have been rolling along, I've been focused on myself as much as possible with GAL and detaching. As well as my physical fitness. I feel great, and I'm trying to knock things off the home clean up list. It's tough with my kids being so little, but whenever I get a chance, it gets done
My W has been acting pretty strange lately. Seems she is stuck between what she wants to do, and committing. She told a friend she isn't sure what she is doing. I'm obviously confused, trying to detach and move on.
She doesn't want to end her A, and she seems to want to be around the house more, but I don't allow that. Is she trying to figure out how she feels? I just don't see any good coming from her A, and can't see how she will ever change. I know that I should mind read, but it's hard not to look for little signs. This is my challenge to avoid.
Apparently, she was online at the house, left the window open, and I unfortunately looked when I got home. I need a 2x4 to stop this. As witnessing real time sexting between your W and the OM is healthy in any way. I'm still trying to forget what I saw
There is a lot of concern and interference from her family. I am not involved in this in any way. I don't save her from this, as I feel it's her own mess she has created
Probably what I am trying to do the most, and struggling with the most, is making sure that I validate her interests , but continue to detach and do what I think is LRT. I am interested if she tells me about her work, but I don't ask. I rather make sure I listen. Several texts go by from her with delayed or no response from me.
The D has not been discussed in detail at all. Out of the blue, my W brought up that if she was to come back, she would be number 5 on the needs list at our house, which was a realistic concern pre A. She also told me she right now has no interest in sharing a bed with me etc. Had to bite my tongue, and I just told her that I think there would have to be a lot of work that was done before that was even a possibility, as that I understood that was how she felt. I didn't offer anything else about how I felt. Good move or bad move?
I'm just going to keep going with my activities and keep working. This is going to take a long time. Will be interesting to see how I feel if /when I reach a point where I decide what I would actually like to do. For example, do I really want to be M to someone that has treated me like this.
As if witnessing real time sexting between your W and the OM is healthy in any way. I'm still trying to forget what I saw
Not something pleasant for sure, but you know it's happening. My suggestion is to learn to deal with it now, so you don't have an emotional response to it later at an inopportune time. That's part of detachment.
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Is she embarrassed, hedging her bets, scared to say what is going on, or unsure?
Yes to all. And who she tells what also has to do with how much respect she has for that person.
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I didn't offer anything else about how I felt. Good move or bad move?
Good move, of course. WAW is total narcissist. She doesn't care an iota about how you feel. In fact, you probably can't feel bad enough to satisfy her. If you had mentioned your feelings, she would likely complain about how you make this "All about you"
Another update in the soap opera that is my life it seems these days:
Had a funeral for a young child, my cousin's three year old who battled cancer. It was a big wake up call for myself when he passed, as I realized what was important. My W was at the funeral, as our kids were close, and she has been around the family for a long time obviously. I had to bite my tongue at several instances just to avoid saying anything, as I listened to one mom discuss the loss of a child, while my W sat and listened to the same thing. Kept thinking ironic she has chosen to leave her children. Of course, that's me mind-reading. After the funeral, she came to the house as it was her night to put kids to sleep, broke down in the car as usual, and then was saying sorry to me as she was leaving. She sent a text last night:
"I know today was really tough for you. Thanks for letting me be there with you. Good night"
I cant make anything out of this other than what it said. I saw it later, because I was so busy GAL on the phone. I just replied with a simple thanks for your help. Good night
I am getting tired of these breakdowns, as I feel they are guilt based. I unfortunately take pleasure in watching her breakdown, and letting her suffer through her emotions. I know that sounds horrible, but I can admit it to myself. I feel like she is not in pain from this mess that we created ( I'm taking responsibility for my part in the M failure) Of course, I think it's something I also think to prevent myself from rescuing her each time it happens. I hate seeing her in pain, when I feel there is so much that could be done to fix it.
As I approach 13 weeks since her A was first discovered, I question of course whether anything will change with that situation. Daily, I wrestle with detaching further and creating more separation distance. I am doing LRT, but she still sees the kids, and I truly don't think she feels she has lost me. And then my fear is she doesn't care if she has. I know at this time, she truly believes she doesn't care about me. Scratch that, I don't know how, she feels, only what she says.
I keep hoping that I will get some kind of sign, and I know that the situation is still young. I know it will take a long time, and nothing can happen till she wants to end her affair. I will not be proceeding with any action for a long time, as some things coming up in the fall will help my situation should it proceed to D. I continue to have some fun with GAL. My W asked who was texting me so late the other night when she was leaving the house after looking after the kids on her night. I didn't answer, as I want to maintain some mystery about my current life. But I do fear she no longer cares.
Do you think she has any credible fear of losing you? Or does she perceive that you're "always right there" if she changes her mind about what she's doing?
I don't think she has any credible fear. Unfortunately I take my vows seriously , value keeping my family together, and I still love her. She has told me she knows all this. Not recently of course.
She has told others she knows she could come back if she wanted to. That's not what I wanted to hear that she thought. Made me feel like I had failed my LRT
I don't think she has any credible fear. Unfortunately I take my vows seriously , value keeping my family together, and I still love her. She has told me she knows all this. Not recently of course.
She has told others she knows she could come back if she wanted to. That's not what I wanted to hear that she thought. Made me feel like I had failed my LRT
Then there's your problem. Unless you can credibly add in a "but not at all costs" to that "value keeping my family together" thing, you're going to remain mostly in "Plan B Zone."
So true, that's what my goal is for the next few weeks here. I need to move towards that mentality in my head and with my actions, more importantly. I think if I can overcome the fear of the destruction of my family, because who are we kidding, it's in shambles from that perspective right now anyways, and move myself forward with the expectation that I am going ahead with or without her, I think I will be in a good place.
It doesn't mean you have to break your vows, Dev, nor take the saving of your family less seriously. It's just that there's a HUGE difference between projecting "I'll always be here for you, no matter what" and "I don't want a divorce, and while this isn't the path I would have chosen for me OR the kids, I realize now that we'll be okay regardless of what happens."
Your wife needs to understand that at some point, you are moving on, and that she may be losing you if she wants to continue the path that she's on. She may or may not then turn back, but I can guarantee you that if she DOESN'T credibly fear losing you, she WON'T turn back.
I agree with you. I haven't been giving the "I'll always be here for you, no matter what" But my W does know how much I care. I think it's just a matter of projecting consistent actions that send a consistent message that I don't want this, but I am moving on
I'm not sure what her "realization point" will be, or if it even ever occurs, but at some point, I imagine I will hit one of them, and then I may have some decisions to make on my own, should she decide to end A and try to work on marriage.
Just going to keep working on sending that consistent message of I'm moving on with or without you. She knows the boundaries I have set that would encompass "with her" , Up to her to meet those if we move forward together. Tricky to do
Great question. At first I was seeing her daily. We have since set up a pseudo schedule which gives a bit more regularity to when she will be at the house. Initially, due to concerns for my kids safety, I have been keeping her visits to when I am work, at my house. She didn't really want the kids to spend a lot of time at her house.
This appears to be changing, but her living situation is now up in the air. We are probably both hesitant to introduce the kids to a new house and then have her change homes. Too confusing for my kids.
Whew, I guess the simple answer is yes, I see her probably 4 days out of 7. I try to treat her as a "friendly neighbour" Nothing else, nothing more. Sorry, I often add too much detail, and go on all kinds of tangents
The main reason I was asking is because I've learned that creating some serious space with my H has helped me (immensely) send the message that I might already have one foot out of our "marital door." And it happened rather quickly.
I was saying as recently as last week that H knows he always has a heart to come home to. Now - after a week of going as dark as possible with kids involved - not only do I feel H has to be questioning whether he could lose me ... but I'm questioning whether I'd want him back if he ever decided to come home. And I'm just now getting started!
It's amazing what time without seeing/hearing from them will do. It still hurts, but it helps with perspective.
You're in a crappy situation, though, and probably not as easily able to distance yourself from her for now. The "friendly neighbor" approach is good.
But this?:
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She has told others she knows she could come back if she wanted to
I know you have it in you to make her question that.
M: 40 H: 44 Married 14 years S11 & D6; D20 & D19 from previous M 2BDs/PAs, 8 years apart Piecing: April 2014
You are so right. When I heard that, and then she told me that as well, it burned me up inside to think that she feels she could just waltz back in to my/her life and our M
That's when I realized I was doing something wrong if my message wasn't being received. More I wasn't sending it, or aligned with what I was doing. I can say anything, but if my actions don't align, it's meaningless.
Going to try and ensure she is aware of where I stand with my actions, and establish some more space
Thanks again Train. Best of luck with your situation. I'll be watching and hoping your reduced contact continues to make you feel better.
I'm really only putting this out here to prevent myself from doing it, as I know you can't reason with a WAS, but I'm fighting the urge to have a very controlling judgemental discussion with my W
I'm tempted to explain how the OM wants nothing really to do with her, is using her for sex, and that she will regret what she has done and is doing. Her cost for all this will be so high, her family, kids.
But of course, instead of having this discussion I wrote it here, to prevent it from even being an option. Sometimes it makes so much sense when it pops in your head, but I know reasoning will not work. Instead, I'm off to coach my son's baseball team.
So I just got hit with a dose of reality. Yesterday was my S3's BD and today we went to the mall to get a present from the Lego store. Walking past the Apple store, I thought I saw the OM sitting outside, but I didn't really think about it. I assumed my WAW was away.
On the way back from the Lego store, we went into the Apple store to look at a laptop for myself, and sure enough, my S8 said "Hey, there's mommy"
She was shocked, and so was I. I was even more shocked when she asked if I wanted an introduction. I politely declined. In fact, it took a lot for me to resist physically hitting him, which I know would do no good, and verbally accosting him. He slinked away into the background. I'm glad he realizes I'm a real person, and the family he is screwing with is real as well, but it doesn't change things.
My WAW apologized, and walked the kids out of the store and back into the mall. It just cements for me the reality of the situation. My WAW has moved on and left. I just can't believe she had the balls to start showing up in public places with him.
I have to realize that I need to move on, even though I am DB and doing LRT. She is not the W I married as so many wise vets have pointed out.
Onwards and upwards, continue moving forward with detachment and maintain my boundaries. Not fun to have that in front of my eyes.
Any thoughts on how I handled that situation?
I'm off to do an Easter egg hunt with my kids, what truly matters
You handled it with strength. You shouldn't ever have to feel embarrassed or avoid going somewhere because your W and her OM are there. You did very well my friend. Enjoy Easter with the kids.
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
The more I think about it, the better I feel about how it went. Short term gains with verbal accosting would have just led to long term pain. Thanks for the support. Happy Easter to you as well
So I've had a great few days with my kids, and my W is now coming to get them in the AM. She will be taking them away for the night. I'm pretty nervous about it as I'm worried about them with her. This will be the first night in almost four months that they won't be with me, but I trust she will keep them safe. She will be with her sister. For anyone who hasn't followed my stitch, her mental health has been a concern
After the run in with her and the OM at the mall, I'm a bit worried about seeing her again. I plan to make no mention of it. Act like it didn't occur, and let her get the kids ready and get on with my day. Big day planned with a lot of GAL
I plan to call the kids tomorrow night to say goodnight, as I always do. I'm a bit worried that will be a problem but her sister and I get along fine.
Still in shock over seeing her on the weekend like that. Id like to think it affected her as well, but it doesn't really matter. Have to keep telling myself, what she thinks, feels etc doesn't matter at this time. And don't mind read.....
Hopefully all goes well, and sadly, looks like I need to make another thread, so maybe I can figure out how to do that tomorrow too.
I realized yesterday after spending some time with my wife that I twice had given the I will always be here for you, and noticed in her eyes those tears of he still loves me, but also the you see I have total control over him still look on her face.
It made me realize that I will never ever say that again ever. She also believes that putting up with my extended family for so long she deserves part of my inheritance even if we are divorced!
This is all due very last bit of it for her believing if we divorce and she marries her OM and it fails I will rescue her...AND WHOSE FAULT IS THAT? It's all my fault!
Don't let yourself fall into that trap...I don't think it's helped me any and it won't help you any.
W 53 H 51, S 16, S 21 33 years M 28 DD 3 Feb 11, 2014 S21 and His Fiancée move in with us 8/14 http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...965#Post2477965
Thanks Sandi it was a tough one for me to see like that, but I'm proud of how I handled it, and this morning, I gave my kids hugs and kisses, she came in, I said hello, and went out the basement door to get on with my day. Smooth with no backsliding. She has texted me to know where I want the kids tomorrow, but I haven't responded yet, and won't for awhile
Oxford, I understand what you are saying completely. I have felt that my wife believes that she still has me as an option if she needs it. However, I have not said a word leaning towards this except for the two weeks after BD, when i was in a teeny tiny bit of shock. With my actions, it should be becoming clearer to her that she has lost me. I do not contact her about anything really, minimal with the kids as required. When I see her, I'm showing my PMA, singing songs, happy go lucky, but conversation is at at a minimum. I no longer protect her from her actions in any way. I am just trying to be consistent and maintain my current boundaries.
I know the danger of her feeling that she still has me, that is no good! Thanks for the advice. The reminder is critical and much appreciated
Devaste, I just wanted to say I am so incredibly impressed with your strength as I read through this thread, I really admire it. How you're handling things shows your true character. Sending you continued strength and wishing you many great things in the future, you clearly deserve it.
M: 42 H: 43 M: 8 years S7 and D4 H has D19 and S25 from previous M Bomb: 3/6/14 OW discovered, EA & PA 1st separation, 10 days, decided to reconcile & moved back in. Fail 2nd separation: 5/1/14
I'm not backing down on anything I've said previously, don't misunderstand, but I don't want you to fire the gun and then come back and ask what to do next. KWIM? Get your plan down pat before you act! And wait until you have more advice & information under your belt.
