Sorry for the confusion. I did ask her to leave and she was with a friend, and she has now moved to her own place. Part of the problem has been to spend time with the kids she was coming to the house. She has not been allowed back to the house. I set conditions which she has not met before that's even discussed. I said she had to have NC with OM, and want to work on MR. Of course, these are far off right now
With respect to hurting herself, she has had thoughts before but never acted on them. She has seen a psychiatrist before , and has taken meds before. To be honest, I think she experienced post partum with our second that was never diagnosed. I didn't file a police report, but I am going to contact our doctor. I do worry that I shouldn't be helping her, but her safety is my concern. Totally agree she has poor coping skills. Very apparent one the last several years.
Our conversations haven't been about our future, but you are right, consistent avoidance of any relationship talk is what I am striving for. At the same time, consistency is the key. My ring is off, pictures are up . This won't be changing until any reconciliation or divorce occurs. I feel strongly about this. If my wife is having an A, she has made a choice and there are consequences.
Totally agree, the schedule resistance is because she wants to be involved when it is convenient, and disappear when it isn't. I've had enough of her just popping in and out. I'd like to change the locks to the house, but the lawyer has advised against this. Right now, the kids live with me full time, and she is over a few nights a week to make dinner etc, predominantly when I am at work. She also helps out with activities on the weekend. She is not living at the house in any way
I'm trying to detach, and a struggle I'm having is how much to help her . For example, she is taking the bed that the bunk beds replaced. I don't really want to help her move it, as I feel she isn't my wife, why should I. I struggle because I have always been there for her, and still want to , but I realize she needs to find her own way.
Hope that clarifies things Sandi2, and as always, thanks for the advice. So helpful in so many ways
Just to follow up, I realized I didn't completely answer. No the kids did not witness it, they were asleep. I didn't call the police, but I have let her doctor know. She feels I violated her trust by doing this, but personally, although I agree with you on her wanting to be rescued and see my response, I felt its a serious thing to threaten.
Should I not be allowing her in the house period, or should I continue to allow access with the kids? She doesn't want the kids at her new place, which is fine with me. They mean the world to me, and the thought of having a night away from them devastates me......
Just to follow up, I realized I didn't completely answer. No the kids did not witness it, they were asleep. I didn't call the police, but I have let her doctor know. She feels I violated her trust by doing this, but personally, although I agree with you on her wanting to be rescued and see my response, I felt its a serious thing to threaten.
First of all, she is in no position to declare violation of trust!! Secondly, she kind of told off on herself by getting angry at you reporting it to the doctor, b/c that was not her intended purpose of the incident.
Quote:
Should I not be allowing her in the house period, or should I continue to allow access with the kids? She doesn't want the kids at her new place, which is fine with me. They mean the world to me, and the thought of having a night away from them devastates me......
Here is what I observe in like situations. WAW has A and H kicks her out, or she decides to leave. But he gets bogged down in co-parenting issues. You say you want her to stick to a schedule and help with the kids activities. You say you won't allow her to stay at the house, and you really would like to change locks.......but she comes in and cooks a few times a week. You take off your ring but leave pictures up on the wall. You still have a desire to help and recue, but ponder over moving a bed for her. So, these are common complexities I see in other stitches, as well.
I think there are two basic avenues people take when the W is in an A and has left the home. One is more the tough love approach with very definite and clear lines drawn in the sand. No cake eating allowed, etc. The life she once had as your W stops immediately and you basically keep her out of the picture until she ends the A and is willing to reconcile and work on the M. And I can't emphasize the latter part enough. Too many LBH'S take the W back "before" she is ready to roll up her sleeves and begin the hard, hard work on the M.
The second approach is the more common one I see here on the board, but IMO, it is not necessarily the best. I think the idea is for the LBH to show her how wonderful he can be, and try to inspire her to choose him over the OM. That is the extremely short version. This is a very difficult lifestyle b/c it can continue indefinitely. The WAW gets her needs met by OM/A and H/family. She has the best of both worlds, so to speak. In the meantime, the LBH feels like a doormat while he watches his W constantly eat cake and never warm up to him in the MR and especially romantically.
There are many who try to mix the two approaches and get very confused over its complexity. B/c when you have children, especially old enough to be in various activities, you soon realize just how tough it is to do it all by yourself. Plus, most men want their W to continue being a parent, if for no other reason.....for the sake of his kids. Yes, it can get quite complicated. One reason being, the WAW and LBH seldom agree on anything.
My personal opinion, and I believe MWD teaches, that when the bomb is dropped.....you go straight into the LRT. In her DR book, she even says that if the LRT does not work and the WAS refuses to end the A, get a lawyer. So many people seem to overlook that little sentence in her book. Plus, many LBS are just not ready to file for that step, so she gives her advice on how to coop while the S is having an A. I suppose that's why DBing is misunderstood by some to think it is doormat tactics. But it isn't. It is the choices of the LBS.
So while I tend to take the tougher side, it is still your life and your choices to make. I will try to help where I can. So that leads me to your current situation. If it were me, I would first ask her if she would participate in family therapy. I have no personal experience with it, but if Starsky encourages it (and I've seen where he does quite often), it is good in my book. I have had personal experiences with just common counselors, and It never helped.
I do believe you need guidance in establishing some of these boundariesn while separated from your W. There again, if I understand it....Starsky may know of FT helps with these issues.
I can give you a close VP of the WAW in an A. Your W resorts to using dramatic tactics to get her way, or to escape a difficult moment....or be rescued. As long as it "works" to get the desired effects, she will continue. So, I suggest you discuss some of these tactics either here or in therapy, to get an unbiased VP. It can be difficult for the one closest to that individual. And I certainly advise you to follow up with the doctor for advice regarding another incident where she threatens to harm herself.
If this was my spouse, I would have concerns about my children and how they may be affected with her threats of bodily harm. I would take it under serious consideration when drawing those lines (her have access to the home, keeping the children, driving the kids, etc.). I think it should be a very serious issue in a child custody case. Whether she really intended to harm herself or not isn't the point, but rather how responsible she is as a parent. She wasn't thinking of the kids!
Anyway. If I were your WAW, I would not see any clear lines drawn by you. I would think you were pi$$ed about OM, and this was a temporary fallout. In time, I will be able to come and go in the home as I please. I mean, what can you do about it? And I see you aren't wearing your ring. Is that suppose to upset me? Big deal. I notice the pictures are still up. (Now I'm talking as though it is your W. it's not my advice.). So now you don't think you can help me move one lousy bed, but I can come to the house three times a week and cook and keep the kids b/c that helps YOU! I am not allowed in "our" house when it is not convenient for YOU. Oh, and about that so called schedule you want to have. You simply want to control my life! Well I will do whatever I please b/c I am done with this M. Now I'm crying b/c you are so mean, you kicked me out of my own home, with no place to go, which proves you never loved me. You never cared about how I felt about anything. As long as you got your way about everything! Blah, blah, boo-hoo........I will cry and if it doesn't move you to comfort and reassure me, then I will do something more drastic to make you feel sorry.
Not so nice, huh? If you feel conflicted, just know she is much worse. Even without her other mental issues, she would be operating out of sheer emotions b/c that is what a WAW in an A does. What a mess, if the H doesn't get his head screwed on straight and operate from his moral and spiritual standards, instead of his emotions. My heart just hurts for those children! Yes, it is a disfunctional home. Guess who needs to be the one in charge? This family needs a leader. The most assurance you can give those kids is to let them see you standing tall, demonstrating to them how to apply stength, integrity, and leadership during these bad times. You don't have to be a super hero, but if you can apply these characteristics, you will definitely be "their" hero. And that is the most highly valued position any of us could ever hope to have in life. Btw, do the kids know why their mother is not living with them? Do they know she doesn't want them at "her place"? What have they been told?
I think that men have a window of time that they can get things into place, so to speak, that can have positive influence on the WAW's decisions. But if he doesn't know what his own standards are and questions everything to the point he is getting buried in all her "stuff", I personally believe he will loose a lot of ground. The sooner you know your own self.........I mean you know what you cannot and will not tolerate in your life..........and you are honest enough to know what you cannot live without, the sooner you will have a clearer picture of where to draw those boundaries.
Get yourself straightened out. Fix your bad stuff. Get help with it. Whatever it takes to be a better man and father. Those are the two top priorities. Then becoming a better H will be much easier.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
That's incredible advice. I really realized when you spoke as my WAW, I have been completely inconsistent. I'm sending mixed messages all the time. Doesn't make any sense to me, how could it to her.
After reading your post, and the last few days thinking a lot, I have decided to go with the tough love approach. We had a conversation again today regarding scheduling, and I structured it as providing space for her and myself, and she is now receptive to it. We are meeting with a FT on Thursday.
I have taken down the pictures, and although my children have not been told exactly what is happening, they are not oblivious. I have suggested we have a family meeting where we explain what is going on. My wife is adverse to this, as she does not want to receive blame.
Our conversation today revolved around the kids. She keeps bringing up relationship conversations which I strive to avoid at this point.
My lines and boundaries have been set.
At this time, out only interaction will be around the kids transferring etc. We will be polite, but no friendship or support At this time, I have no interest in a relationship with her, we are not even close to that She will do activities certain days, and me the others. I am fortunate and have support most all the time. She will not, but I cannot be concerned
She was upset today that the rest of my family didn't interact with her at skating lessons. I said that I was no longer going to be protecting her. And then, she said I will be sorry , and again hinted at suicide. As we have noticed, she tends to threaten this to try and get a response that I care I believe. She was also suggestive and flirtatious as well. I think this is what you referred to as "tempt checking". I avoided any conversation and her advances, as tough as it was. I left the room to go for a cold shower. My plan is to implement the schedule starting Friday.
Perhaps the thing that spoke the most to me from your post, is as the LBS, I have no interest in being a doormat. You were spot on in how you get distracted into having your WAW around to help out. And I have been bending over backwards to make sure house is always clean, lunches made, laundry done etc. I need to stand up for myself, and make changes for myself
The things I have been working on are my parenting style, communication with my kids, and I guess my WAW, as well as improving my confidence and self-esteem. Part of that stems from the rejection I have just experienced. I have also become a much better listener, and am appreciating other peoples viewpoints a lot more. I have also determined that I would like my WAW in my life. I still care very deeply for her. However her A is a non starter for me. Nothing will happen until that is ended etc. I am starting to realize I can only control my own actions. This is so key. It's really about me!
My wife agreed with lots of the things we discussed today. This was a change from normal. However, I have no expectations that anything will change on her end.
There's not much I can add to Sandi's EXCELLENT advice, and I'm in a bit of a rush at work this morning, but I did want to add this:
You should have called 911 when your wife threatened to cut herself. "A", she needs help, and "B" you will have established both a police and a medical file which will be useful if there is ever a 2nd attempt. You need to protect your kids right now, and if you're wife is willing to be some combination of not-well-enough and foolish enough, let her play into your legal hand.
All you need to say was "I was understandably alarmed at your behavior, and I'm not equipped to help you."
You're still protecting her, and she's going to continue to play that card until such time as she learns that it's no longer effective.
In retrospect, I do wish I had called the police. The risks are far too great, and it's my kids at risk. Good advice
Just had a question, I've noticed there is huge variation on exposure. I believe the DB technique is to not expose the affair. I have wrestled with this a bit. While her family and my family immediate know, I would like to expose her in the online world where the two interact, and professionally as well. However , I haven't done this as I feel I am doing this to get a reaction out of her, as well as stop the affair, taking away some of the secrecy etc. Anyone that has asked I have told, and I am telling more people as time goes. This follows along with not protecting her anymore.
My DB coach has also advised against outing them. I have followed this advice as well. Any thoughts from people out there?
Thanks again for all the help . It's so nice to bounce ideas off others who have been through this type of thing
In retrospect, I do wish I had called the police. The risks are far too great, and it's my kids at risk. Good advice
Just had a question, I've noticed there is huge variation on exposure. I believe the DB technique is to not expose the affair.
You would be correct -- definitely not in the DB catechism. It worked for me (and others), but I do wish I had exposed to a smaller circle of people.
You can google it, as it's certainly not some fringe method -- it's well within the mainstream infidelity movement. Just very strong opinions on both sides.
Since she has "threaten" again (saying you would be sorry), I believe you should not expose her to everyone at this time. I think you need a professional's advice b/c your W is emotionally abusing you with her frequent threats to harm herself (or maybe others). I doubt seriously any DB coach will tell you to expose, ever. Exposure is not part of their program, but there are other programs that have it. And, whether she's serious or not, you still have to take responsibility for how you respond. If she threatens one minute and flirts the next, the girl is obviously unstable. Who knows what she might attempt if she felt exposed to her entire world? I sure don't know.
Exposure is a controversial subject on this board. DB doesn't encourage it. I believe some former members were banned due to trying to help, or encourage, others to expose, but IDK. But the mods watch some of us old timers, and especially those of us who believe using a tougher approach. I'll just say, we have to be careful how we word things.
Exposure worked well in Starsky's stitch. However, in my stitch it would not have worked well at all. I was not quite in the shape your W seems to be, but if I had been exposed to everyone, I believe I would have reacted badly and made some very poor decisions. I'm not saying you should buckle under emotional blackmail, but I'm telling you to be wise in this. I for one, will not encourage you to expose her while she is threatening to do harm.
Another thing to think about is how quickly and extensively you switch to taking a tough love approach from the softer stand you've had. Don't bite off more than you can swallow at one time. Now if it were not for her mental instability, I would probably be telling you to turn up the heat. However, due to the state she's in, I strongly suggest you slow your fast planning down some. I know you said you've done a lot of thinking, but you need to do more before acting. I often see a LBH go from one extreme to the other too quickly, and he doesn't get the results he thought he would......then says DBing didn't work for him. I'm not backing down on anything I've said previously, don't misunderstand, but I don't want you to fire the gun and then come back and ask what to do next. KWIM? Get your plan down pat before you act! And wait until you have more advice & information under your belt.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Yes, I see the wisdom in a soft changing of stances, and really getting my plan down. I am taking the kids away for a week, in a week, where I expect NC, which will help enforce a bit of this I think
Today, she was at the house while I was at work. We have a nanny as well, so she does not have to be here. When I got home, I told her she could go, I was good. I said this because I didn't want her to think I need her. She got very offended, and told me I was giving her mixed messages, not thanking her for making dinner etc, but then telling her to leave. Talk about reinforcing how I need to send a consistent message. However, coming to the house to make dinner for the kids etc is her need.
She feels guilty as she has made herself unavailable tomorrow to go visit the OM. I'm just putting it out of my mind at the moment as I can't control it. It will be harder tomorrow. It kills me to think that after all that has gone on, the pain that has been caused, she is so confused and scared that she escapes to the OM. My wife has a history of some OCD, some anxiety, and some depression. She avoids lots of things because of her addictive personality. My fear is her A has become addictive. She agreed with me when i brought it up when this first broke. I have not brought this up or months now, as it is not appropriate anymore.
On a side note, she hired people to move the bed, a couch and some other stuff today while my two older kids were in school, so that is solved.
I will take more time to reflect and plan, but I'm really leaning towards tougher love. The consistent emotional fragility card that is being played by her will reduce for now any exposure options. I feel I did too much of this early on when I first found out. I know how badly that did for me, so I need to be cautious and continue with my plan.
As always, thanks for the advice. It helps me reflect and keep my head on as best I can. As I have said, it is life saving in many ways. I appreciate the posts very much.
Just to clarify, I am not suggesting you go soft. I am saying you need to get your priorities in order. First on your list should be protection (physically, mentally, financially. Etc.) of your children, as well as yourself.
Have you chosen a FT and made an appointment? Have you received legal advice? Have you taken steps to protect your finances? Established an activity schedule around the kids and some type of visitation schedule? You will need to decide if their mother can come to the house to visit and how that will be handled. See where you stand legally and look at your options.
As she said, she is obviously confused about your signals, and that is why you need to give your attention to the most important things first........before you jump into exposure and those type issues, but that's just me. Starsky's experience was more extensive and he can advise you better than I can.
Remember, you are not dealing with rational person. You better be serious about your decisions b/c you will be playing with fire! Never think she wouldn't wipe you out financially, leave with your kids, or anything else she may decide. That is why I said to use wisdom. And you have to admit, you have let your emotions dictate your decisions up to this point.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
I'm not backing down on anything I've said previously, don't misunderstand, but I don't want you to fire the gun and then come back and ask what to do next. KWIM? Get your plan down pat before you act! And wait until you have more advice & information under your belt.