Stuck On You

[JuneReN]

Good timing for me hon, thanks <3

[job]

Raine,
I'm very happy for you. Continue to spice up your marriage and do not fall back on old ways. This is a brand new relationship w/lots of wonderful things to come. Enjoy each and every moment because you've worked hard earned them.

[Wonka]

Raine baby!!!

What a wonderful post! I am so proud of you and your courage in plugging ahead in your 'new' M with H.

I am wondering if you are able to recognize your triggers and where they come from. When and how they occur is the key.

As for H working really hard to earn your trust, I am thinking it might be a good time to give H Shirley Glass' book Not Just Friends that, in my view, will aid him in understanding the process of affairs and how it has impacted you.

Another book that I feel H is ready for at this stage is 5LL. I think he's ready to receive tools from you as you are bringing him to your level...as his wingman. As DBers, we're pretty much ahead of our spouses in the persona growth department and I'm thinking that your H may be receptive at this stage to receive some reading material from you. Make sense?

How did putting your ring back on feel to you? How did you arrive at that point?

[AJM]

Always nice to hear from you, Raine. Glad to hear how things are going

AJ

[BrightFuture]

Raine, thank you so much for posting. What your H tells you about his feelings and actions during the crisis helps me to understand what my H might be going through too. Your recent post gave me some food for thought, since I just spent a weekend seeing H every day. This was something completely unexpected and I’ve been trying to explain it. When I read what your H said that he wanted you to be his friend and not hate him, but was also convinced that he could not have a relationship with you, I immediately thought about my H.

I understand what you are saying about building a new relationship with someone you already know and at the same time having the elements of the old relationship mixed in. I’m not in this situation yet, but I often think the same thoughts, about how to reconcile the old and the new.

I’m so happy for you. I almost cried when I read your update. Please keep posting. You are a light house for a lot of people here too.

[Raine]

Considering where you are now this may seem like a silly question, but looking back, is there anything you would have done differently? What's your sage advice for the rest of us still holding on to hope? Thanks so much!

I have thought about this...a lot. A lot of what ifs. And yes I think there are things I would have done differently, just like I could look back at other periods of my life and think, I could have done that better too. But to be honest, I think we would have gotten through this, no matter what. I just think if I had done some things differently, it would have slowed the process down considerably. It's pretty clear there isn't much I could have done to speed it up. Had I taken my moments to lay down my boundaries at any other period of time, it likely would pushed him away. It may have taken years and years. And by that time, both of us would have likely moved on too far to work on coming back.

I do know and feel with all my heart that I was always the one that he wanted, deep down in his heart. Back before my DB ninja skills took over, I made a heck of a lot of mistakes. Needy, clingy, anger, guilt, etc. I pretty much told him we were better off without him and he is just like his loser father. I'm ashamed at how that anger took over and lashed out at him. Sure I can justify it. I'm two weeks pregnant and he is leaving me and the kids "just because." Yeah. I was ticked. There is lots and lots of stuff that I hope he has forgotten...But he didn't divorce me then or seek a lawyer then. So even at my worst and biggest regrettable moments, he was still holding on to me.

So more what ifs...what if I had never called him out on his cheating? He would have never left the house. And maybe that would have been good in someways, but probably not. Remember how it was when he came back home, still in the throws of depression? It was way easier for me to not have him living here while trying to juggle everything. It would have been way too easy to get angry at him, dealing with everything I was dealing with, while he sat around and slept and watched tv and did nothing. I needed that time to get strong myself too.

I proved to myself I didn't need anyone. I was always confident, but now I'm extremely self assured....something that H has said is extremely attractive to him. He always thought I was too, but when he moved back in, he was so amazed by me. So anyway...if he had never left the house, I think this would have taken a heck of a lot longer. I think my sitch moved pretty fast because he got to experience 7 months without me. He got to really figure out what the issue was. I was able to get completely out of his way. It also allowed him to experience some things he felt he missed out on, only to learn, he really didn't miss out on anything.

I asked him last night if there is anything he wished I had changed. He said no. I asked him, what if I had told him that I wanted to work on us, that I wanted him. He said he would have questioned it. He would not understand why. I said, what if I gave you all the reasons, that I loved you, I wanted us to be a family, I cared about him, I couldn't imagine my life without him...He just looked at me strangely and said no. He would not have believed it. He said that he felt there was no way someone like me would ever want to be with someone like him. He felt so horrible about himself. He said there was nothing I could have said or done to change it.

Now there are for sure non-DB moments that happened. But those moments are the ones that H talks about. I went against the DB mindset at those moments, because I felt it. I knew it was what I had to do. And those moments are what became the wake-up calls for H. Those are the moments he hit rock bottom, until the final one where he slammed to the bottom and knew if he did not change things, right now and forever, he would not have me as part of his life. And he couldn't risk that. He couldn't risk losing me as his best friend. Relationship/marriage/intimacy had nothing to do with it. I was the person who could see him. I knew him. I loved him for him and cared about him with no other motives behind it. He could not stand the thought of losing that. He would lose everything else, just for the sliver of friendly connection to me.

I felt like DB goes against human nature. But by golly, with a MLCer, it works. It totally works. No matter the outcome, if you do it right, if you focus on yourself, you're going to come out of this great. Because either the MLC is going to start questioning why the heck you are so happy and why the heck they are not with you, or you just become extremely attractive to others.

Confidence is incredibly sexy.

[Raine]

Hey Beautiful Wonka!

I am wondering if you are able to recognize your triggers and where they come from. When and how they occur is the key.

Triggers are pretty much going away. Mainly they occur when I don't trust what he is saying, that I interpret something the wrong way from how he meant it, if there is a phrase used that I saw/heard him use with one of them, or if we drive near where one of them works/lives. They come from my trust issues, from past snoopings and discoveries, and being reminded of things I haven't closed the door on.

As for H working really hard to earn your trust, I am thinking it might be a good time to give H Shirley Glass' book Not Just Friends that, in my view, will aid him in understanding the process of affairs and how it has impacted you. Another book that I feel H is ready for at this stage is 5LL....I'm thinking that your H may be receptive at this stage to receive some reading material from you. Make sense?

I don't think he's ready for that yet. He does not do too well talking about the affairs. He is extremely ashamed and guilt ridden. I come out of the conversation with a weight being lift, and he will be in tears. It makes him feel sick. He can't believe it was him. It doesn't feel like him. Things don't add up or make sense. We will talk about a few things, and then it's usually a matter of him saying, "I need to stop talking about this," and so we will put it on hold. We've had some extremely good conversations where we talk about things without details. I've brought up things from his teenage years where he has had an "ah ha" moment and said he needs to work through those things. We will talk about things very matter of fact, scholarly, psychologically, and he does really well with that. I can talk to him about things I've read and how I felt things were relevant. Talking about the OW being insecure and the type of women who would get involved with a married man is far easier to talk about than times he should have been with the kids but was with one of them or how I was impacted by it.

H started reading Men in MLC about two months ago. I think he made it about a chapter into it and put it away. He said it's way too hard to read. I still don't know if he agrees he was in MLC. He feels he was very depressed, selfish, and immature and he needed to grow up. We read 5LL together, each with our own copy after BD1, before OWBD. I talked to him about it today and he feels like it would be a good one for him to read now with a better perspective. He is currently reading other more positive books. I've gotten him a few books on happiness and on boundaries. Boundaries is a big one with him, where he is such a people-pleaser and caregiver mentality. This was also part of a really good convo we had, where we talked about that personality type but how it has also strayed into feeling superior to others around him and being the reason for certain people and friends he choices to hang out with. There is a desire to be a mentor and teacher, but there is also the desire to feel better than other people too. That being said, I'm going to get that "Not Just Friends," and start reading it myself and see where that leads.

How did putting your ring back on feel to you? How did you arrive at that point?

I didn't like it. It doesn't feel right. I'm for sure doing it for him. I love him and care about him and have all of those feelings for him symbolic of wearing a ring that links me to him. I've gotten used to not wearing one, so it just is an annoyance more than anything right now. TVS sent me a message about wearing it and that she never stopped wearing hers and what it means to her. That had a huge impact on me. I don't think she'll mind if I share what she said:

I can see how there are negative emotions associated with the ring. I think that too, all the broken promises and hurt...But then I also think when I look at my ring - I kept my vows. I stood by the man I loved when most wouldn't. I loved him at his worst, loved him unconditionally. So in many ways, my ring means more to me than the day I first put it on. Because now, I really do know what for better or worse means.....

Wear it and see how it feels, how you feel. You can always take it off. Each time you look down at your finger, be reminded of the strong and loving woman that you are.

[Wonka]

Raine,

I can see how you feel H is not ready for Not Just Friends. I can so relate to what H is going through for it was painful for me to realize how much I had hurt Ms. Wonka. This is when our empathy chips are now back in good working order and when we do see the pain we've inflicted on you...NOT FUN at all!

Another good book is After The Affair by Janis Spring. She talks about how it takes place, how it affects the betrayed spouse, and how to repair the damage by earning the spouse's trust.

Not Just Friends may bring up painful triggers for you, Raine. Wanted you to be prepared for this possibility. It was tough for me to read this book and I could only get through about 30 pages before putting the book away for good. Since then, I haven't even opened it again and that's been close to 10 years.

Now on to the ring...

I didn't like it. It doesn't feel right. I'm for sure doing it for him. I love him and care about him and have all of those feelings for him symbolic of wearing a ring that links me to him. I've gotten used to not wearing one, so it just is an annoyance more than anything right now

-What is about the ring that you don't like?
-What is it about the ring that doesn't feel right?
-What does "feel right" mean to you?
-In what ways is it an "annoyance" to you?

What are those cues telling you? Perhaps there may be some unresolved emotions that are stuck or not being fully acknowledged.

What are your thoughts?

[Raine]

Thinking about this for a few days, I think what it comes down to is the ring isn't me. I've changed. It's from before. And I did make changes in other parts of me, inside and out. I made changes to the house, the MBR especially after he moved out. The ring is loose and I should get it resized. But, it's just not me. It's something I have to remind myself to put on. It doesn't come naturally.


Some other things that have come out from him that I haven't posted on...

It meant a lot to him that I asked him to be there when the baby was born. He didn't think I wanted him there. He was worried that he wouldn't feel the same way towards the baby as he did the other boys, but he did. He fell in love with him the moment he saw him. He is so in love with all the boys and such an amazing father. He is super involved with all of them. I told him I felt like the baby saved my life. I had to take care of me, because I was carrying him. He said that it just makes the baby even more special to him.

I worry/think about that I am done having kids because that's he always said four? Because the first time he messed up and had a minor physical hookup was when I was in the final months of a very difficult pregnancy (son #3) and my pregnancy seems to be a catalyst for this? Because it may affect my work? I want to feel done because I'm done. And I am having a very hard time feeling "done," because I want that decision to be from me. I don't like that there is a negative feeling there with me being pregnant. I don't like that he abandoned me during that time. And maybe it's a litmus test too. What would he be like now?

He felt that he was a stronger person. That he could be placed in certain situations, like alone with another woman, and be in control and be strong. The first time something happened he felt so much guilt and intense shame. She kept contacting him and wanting things to be more and he would ignore her. That's not what it was or what he wanted. Things started there and spiraled out of control. That was Jan. 2011.

It meant a lot to him how much I involved him and invited him to things when we were separated and when he first moved back in. He had a hard time with it, because they were special moments, moments he knew would be special, but it was hard to share them with me, because he knew he had ruined any possibility of us. It was always me, but I was no longer an option. That's what he keeps saying. He didn't think about things with me, because there was no possibility of me. It wasn't him deciding between the OW and me, it was deciding between the OW and no one. So things like that really meant a lot to him that he could be so close to me, but also caused him a lot of pain and regrets.

He thought it was good that he moved out so me and the boys didn't have to see him coping and dealing with the depression. He worried about lashing out in anger at me or the boys. And he said he was useless. He just slept all the time. He said when he moved back in, he was still in the thick of the depression. There were times I would go to his room at night and listen to podcasts, rub his back, just be next to him, and usually end up falling asleep. He saw those times as me being a poultice for the depression. He said there were times that I would ask him if he wanted to listen to a podcast, and he would ignore it, cause he just felt so bad. Then he would message me later on, and a few times I had fallen asleep. He had a hard time with that. He never once said no. Just sometimes it was delayed. Sometimes when I was next to him, he felt me there, drawing his depression out, making it worse, to feel better. He always had a hard time with me leaving. I would either go because the baby woke up, or because I had woken up and knew I'd need to go up soon for the baby anyway.

He feels that now he knows what he wants. He will never risk losing me again. He knows the other side, and he will never go back to it. He opens up to me, completely, in ways he was never able to open up to anyone before.

The main OW complained a lot to him. He never spent special holidays with her, never this, never that. Wanting him to move faster on his timeline. She is so clueless. As if at the end of all this he was going to want to be with her. She didn't want him around me, moving close to me. He really didn't see at the time how much she was trying to manipulate him. Always a "I think you should do this," followed by "but do what you want." She was very upset with him moving back in, and he would just twist it back on her, that if she hadn't gotten so up in his head, telling him he needed to move forward, and not a place too close to me, and not with roommates, and this and that, she wouldn't have pushed him to the edge where he just shut down and had no options. Now he can see that it was him. His decision. He hoped that when he talked to me that day about not having any options, that I would offer to let him stay here, but he knew he couldn't ask. He also knew that if he did get his own place, I was moving on, and he wasn't ready for that either.

[bluesgal]

Thanks for sharing, Raine. I need to hold onto every thread of hope I can right now. I love that you share his thoughts when possible. It helps me have empathy vs anger