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#2428685 02/06/14 04:22 PM
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labug Offline OP
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Time for a new thread.

We need some robust discussion here. smile


Me 57/H 58
M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13

Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do.
I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering.
Caroline Myss
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labug Offline OP
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Wonka, this
Quote:
Depression does not hurt you or any other people but the person who experiences it.
is not supported by the evidence.

I can't do a real answer right now (real life needs my attention right now) but will be back later.


Me 57/H 58
M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13

Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do.
I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering.
Caroline Myss
Joined: Nov 2011
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labug Offline OP
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I'm going to try and make my response brief because these are really big, multifactorial issues.

I think there were 3 questions, the one above and do I equate depression with cancer and can people give boundaries to people with cancer (or people with other illnesses).

For the first question, depression does affect the family a friends and there are a lot of good studies that indicate this. Spouses who are married to partners with depression have an increase in depression and stress. This leads to an increase in stress-related illness. There is also a 9 (I think that's the number) fold increase in divorce in marriages with a depressed spouse. I guess that's the ultimate boundary.

Children are also affected by a parents depression and have various behavioral and stress issues, including depression of their own. We could also link the effects of divorce on children to this. There studies that show the negative effect of PPD on the cognitive, social and physical development of infants/young children.

In a marriage where depression is a factor that is negatively affecting the family and the spouse is in denial or refuses to get treatment, I think it is acceptable to have a boundary that protects the family. If my H had an STD, I would have a boundary until he got treated and had a test of cure. If I lived with someone with a communicable disease, there would be a boundary until they were successfully treated. Why would we treat depression differently

In the case of depression, I would get guidance and support from a T.

About depression and cancer...this one brought back memories cause I pulled out that chestnut with my H when he dropped the bomb "If I had cancer would you leave me? I'm depressed, I can't help it!" Yeah, I got all victimy.

He did exactly what he needed to do to protect him and to wake me up to how far in a hole I was. I was a depressed, angry, resentful b!tch. I was already in T but his boundary made me take a really long, honest look at myself and kick it into high gear.

Cancer itself doesn't make people be disrespectful to other people but depression can result from cancer treatment, pain and the prognosis. We have to compare apples to apples, not cancer to depression but rather depression to depression. Cancer patients can become abusive. Caretakers often have to have boundaries about verbal, and even physical, abuse. There's lots of stuff out there about caretaker stress and there is also some support for families of people with cancer. There's very little support for families of people with depression.

The bottom line is, no one has to live with abuse. Being ill with anything doesn't confer carte blanche to abuse others. The way we deal with people who abuse is to set and enforce strong, clear boundaries.


Me 57/H 58
M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13

Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do.
I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering.
Caroline Myss
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Bug,

I'm glad that there's room for some good, robust discussion here.

Spouses who are married to partners with depression have an increase in depression and stress. This leads to an increase in stress-related illness. There is also a 9 (I think that's the number) fold increase in divorce in marriages with a depressed spouse. I guess that's the ultimate boundary.

This seems to suggest, to me, that it applies to long-term depression. Perhaps clinical, chronic depression. Not the short-term depression that is in tandem with MLC.

In a marriage where depression is a factor that is negatively affecting the family and the spouse is in denial or refuses to get treatment, I think it is acceptable to have a boundary that protects the family.

My issue is the type of boundary that you suggested in Melissa's thread. If I recall correctly, it was this: "I cannot be with you until you seek treatment." To me, you are implying that you will divorce your spouse unless he/she seeks treatment. It does not show unconditional love. The spouses do NOT choose depression. They don't go to the local store to buy liquor nor seek a dealer to get street drugs. A huge difference right there.

Cancer itself doesn't make people be disrespectful to other people but depression can result from cancer treatment, pain and the prognosis. We have to compare apples to apples, not cancer to depression but rather depression to depression. Cancer patients can become abusive. Caretakers often have to have boundaries about verbal, and even physical, abuse.

One needs to separate the condition (cancer, depression, etc.) from behaviors. Rude and disrespectful behaviors do need to be nipped in the bud irrespective of the person's situation. Which is why I urge the LBS in their posts not to tolerate such rude behavior out of fear. See the difference?

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I dunno, Wonka. I see what both of you are saying and agree with points made by both of you.

Since my XH's family is littered with diagnosed but untreated depression, I see some huge similarities between them and my heroin addicted brother. Yes, they are illnesses, but yes, they can be treated with medication and therapy. I'm going to leave illness created depression, which is kind of a different horse in this corral, out of my discussion.

I will not have a R with my brother any longer while he's using. That's my boundary. I also will not stay at my parents' house when he moves back with them. Another boundary. Fortunately for all of us, he's in jail somewhere. My mom finally found her limit and kicked him out. I can't tell you how awful it had to get for her to do it - he did something heinous and criminal and she couldn't handle it anymore. Anyway, back to the discussion at hand.

Unconditional love should first go to ourselves. If the depressed person negatively affects the family, I have to agree with Bug that it's acceptable to place boundaries there. I didn't hear her advise Melissa or anyone else that they'd have to D someone. Maybe separate for awhile isn't a bad thing, though.

I say this from experience. My XH was horribly depressed when he walked out. He engaged in negative behaviors (drinking too much and driving), he avoided me and the girls, and he was generally snotty and resentful to a lot of people close to him. The court forced him into C after his DUI, and I really knew it was rock bottom. Only I thought he would continue to explore why he was unhappy and chose to drink himself to death. I was wrong. He chose to run away. The man who walked out on me was a shell of a man I used to know. His eyes were vacant, and he just appeared to be a soulless body surviving in the world.

He's much better today, but to say he's not still depressed would be a lie. He still drinks too much and too often. Though he doesn't drive while doing it (he has a sober GF who is now his personal taxi), he has truly not stepped up to the plate to get treated. He's told me that his doctor suggests his high blood pressure and high cholesterol has everything to do with his lifestyle and choices, and had long advocated making some changes - to include counseling. Yet he refuses to do it.

My brother also does not stick with his own sobriety program. Usually about the 12 month mark, he thinks he's smarter than everyone who holds him accountable and he stops going to meetings. One day, my parents are going to get the visit from the boys in blue to let them know he's been found dead and rotting in some back alley in the bowels of drug infested DC.

So I guess I'm saying that we all deserve to protect ourselves. Depression and addiction ARE illnesses. But if they didn't negatively impact and affect others, there would be no reason for Al-Anon or any other codependency programs out there.

And I don't know if I've ever said this on this BB before. While I genuinely like my XH and consider him a friend and good father, I am truly, TRULY grateful that I am no longer married to him. His unwillingness to heal himself is unattractive to me from a partner aspect, and I no longer want that kind of R with my lover. It's hollow and empty.

While I also consider my XH to have suffered from MLC at the same time, I think the depression made it much worse than it already was. Maybe that's what's different - he no longer acts like he's in MLC. I don't think it's black and white, and I also think it's the case of a barrel of monkeys.


"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."

Albert Einstein
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labug Offline OP
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Great thoughts, ladies. Much to ponder.

Wonka, I think you might have me confused with someone else. or at least what I said.

This is what I said on Bluesgirl's thread: it's within reason that you set a boundary that says, "I can't be with you if you don't get treatment."

Depression like addiction, affects the whole family. Recognizing that and protecting ourselves with boundaries is a step in our healing process.


Divorce may follow that if the verbal/emotional abuse and the inability to seek help continues.

Originally Posted By: Wonka
It does not show unconditional love. The spouses do NOT choose depression. They don't go to the local store to buy liquor nor seek a dealer to get street drugs. A huge difference right there.
I didn't mean to imply don't love them. It takes a lot of love (and courage) to set and enforce boundaries. Not setting boundaries and allowing people to abuse us doesn't show love either for self or the other.

I've come to learn, via the school of hard knocks, that if I don't first love and respect myself, I can't really love or respect anyone. All I did was pile on resentment on resentment.

Originally Posted By: Wonka
One needs to separate the condition (cancer, depression, etc.) from behaviors. Rude and disrespectful behaviors do need to be nipped in the bud irrespective of the person's situation. Which is why I urge the LBS in their posts not to tolerate such rude behavior out of fear. See the difference?

Do I see the difference? Maybe.
And yes, I think I agree but depression often comes with disrespectful, sometimes abusive behavior and is often very treatable. I guess my question is, what boundary would you have had BG set? How would you have worded it?

A spouse can't determine if it's situational depression associated with a life crisis or if it's going to be clinical depression. At the outset they look very similar. I think limits are important from the outset and can include getting treatment.

we need some amaretto and scotch wink


Me 57/H 58
M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13

Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do.
I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering.
Caroline Myss
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 9,676
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labug Offline OP
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Meant to add this, from Lynne Forrest today:

Taking care of ourselves emotionally includes refusing to make someone else's maltreatment of us as being at, against, or about us!

Why would w decide that their confused, unhappy thoughts, are our fault? How kind is it to tell ourselves that they don't care about us? Why would we hurt ourselves with such unkind thoughts just because THEY say, and act the way they do out of THEIR own unhappy story?

And the real question is ... how can we treat ourselves so unkindly, and expect them to treat us any better?! I'm just saying... the world is a mirror - only every time.


Me 57/H 58
M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13

Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do.
I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering.
Caroline Myss
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Bugsy hope u don't mind I butt in smile. Depression is depression. I don't diffirentiate situational from clinical. There are specifiers and criterias that one must have in order to be diagnosed as depressed. Irritability is one of them. And yes a depressed family member will affect an entire family especially if they live together. Imagine seeing a love one sleeping all day not eating not bathing unable to concentrate or answer you? I have read over and over that our WAS are depressed. Now that I have been at this for a while I have to disagree. Their affect maybe be depressed but internally I don't believe so. That makes it very incongruent to me. I think it's something else. They may have some sadness mixed with some euphoria mix with confusion. Sounds more bipolar to me lol.. If a person is truly depressed they wouldn't have an interest with OP or OH (other horse). Since it's my birthday I can Whateves smile


M 53
D 20
Separated 6/22/11 moved out 10/24
Together 26 yrs
Married 16
W Filed for D 7/21/11
Served 9/6/11
D final 8/28/12

“Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be.”

John Wooden





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labug Offline OP
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It made all kinds of sense, Gineen. You know too well the effects of living with depression, self-medicating, addiction. ((( )))

Rick, you're welcome to my party anytime! I don't believe all WAS are depressed but some are, some have substance abuse/addiction issues. I think it's a disservice not to point out that being a WAS is very different from a WAS with addiction. Or MLC vs this person is an abuser.

I didn't want to have to tell my H (several years ago), "Get help or find another place to live." But I did for my kids and me.

I don't want to have to tell S21 there are certain rules about living here and one is, you remain in IC.

We have such stigma around these issues. I think that's a driver. that's why I try to share freely about my depression, there is no shame in having an illness and seeking treatment.


Me 57/H 58
M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13

Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do.
I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering.
Caroline Myss
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 9,676
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labug Offline OP
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Quote:
I think it's a disservice not to point out that being a WAS is very different from a WAS with addiction. Or MLC vs this person is an abuser.


Just to cclarify, I'm not making a determination or diagnosis, just going with what posters say and letting them decide if S's behaviors are a problem for them, just like all the -Anon groups do.


Me 57/H 58
M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13

Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do.
I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering.
Caroline Myss
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