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#2408086 11/24/13 07:55 PM
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Hi everyone

I've been a lurker on this forum for a while and have finally got up the courage to post. I have read the books and the rules and have been having trouble applying them to my particular situation, so I am hoping that by outlining things here I am going to get some advice as to where I am going wrong, how I can improve - and a few 2X4s if needed.

My DH and I have been together for nearly nine years, married for four. We have two children - 8 year old and 3 year old. After the birth of our youngest, I was very sick with PPD and PTSD. I believe that is where the root of our problems are - I was working, my DH was a student, and I was angry, depressed, anxious - really taking it out on him. He was basically a punching bag for me, developed his own anxiety and depression issues (I believe) as a consequence of this, and generally withdrew from me. It took me about a year to seek treatment, and I can say that only in the past six months have I started to feel fully recovered. DH has stuck by me in practical terms - he's a SAHD to our children, is devoted to the, and works hard around the house, but he's very withdrawn from me.

I have been persuing him and getting upset when he's been distant - that has led to some really ugly fights, to us both threatening to leave each other, to some very hurtful things said. He says he feels helpless, like he has no power in the relationship, like he isn't respected, I don't care about what he needs, that he doesn't get to have choices about how to spend his time, that he's unhappy, and it is my fault. I haven't been good at validating him, and haven't been good at showing the patience and perseverance that he did while I was ill and recovering. I do believe that we're on the brink of leaving - he's certainly told me several times that he is trapped, and only here because he can't afford his own place, that he doesn't want to leave the children, etc.

I have been trying to give him space, be kind, be calm, and not ask him for anything - not pester, not ask that he spend time with me. It is hard for me to make sure he has time for himself - I work full time, am around as much as possible at the weekends, but I also don't want to suggest things for him to do because I don't want to stifle him or make him feel disrespected or controlled.

I have been reading a book called 'Boundaries'. So far the only Boundary I have put in place is to do with our communication. I won't speak to him in a sarcastic or disrespectful way and I won't stay in a conversation where he is speaking that way to me. I calmly say, 'please don't speak to me that way, if you do I will have to leave,' and then I do. This hasn't had much effect so far, though I have managed to control my own tongue much better.

I think we have issues around money - he doesn't make any at the moment, and though I transfer money into his account each month for the household and his personal needs, he doesn't feel like he is in control - I guess he feels dependent. I have said I will work less hours so he can work outside the home if he wants to, but he hasn't had success at finding work and I can't work less until he does. I pay for childcare three days a week so he can have time to himself and he generally uses that time to work on the house or do some leisure activity.

We also have an issue around sex. He tends not to initiate very often - I believe because when I was sick I so often refused, or had anxiety-attack type symptoms, became very angry and unreasonable when he approached me. I can totally understand that. I have been working on initiating with him more, so we do have some sexual contact, but it isn't really that enjoyable for me. Partly I think due to anxiety on my part, my focus on constantly reassuring him that it is okay, I am not going to get anxious again distracting me, and partly to do with the fact that he does very little foreplay or kissing. I think this might be because he is scared - he will do nothing unless I ask for it specifically, and if I don't respond quickly enough, he will stop. This feels very pressured for me, so it's been easier for me just to make sure he has a good time and forget about me. I think he's angry about this - he tells me that there's something wrong with me, that I need to get therapy, that it isn't his job to make me feel good. I think he's scared and frustrated.

The other problem is with his family. We've been struggling for a while - but it came to a head in the summer. He was giving me the silent treatment and I was beside myself. I confided in his mother. She, at the time, seemed sympathetic (we had, up until that point, been reasonably close) but since then has certainly cooled towards me. I have been ignored by his sisters at family events, and apparently his mother has said some fairly unpleasant things about me to DH. I have not indicated that I want to curtail his or our children's time with them, but I don't feel comfortable around them any more and I do feel hurt that DH hasn't defended me or supported me in this.

Another issue is drinking. DH has always been a big drinker - me less so, though over our first years together I gradually started drinking more as so much of the time we spent together revolved around drinking. After the birth of my second child my drinking and his really got out of control - I think we were both self medicating anxiety and depression. While we both drink a little less than we used to, I still drink more than is good for me - mainly to deal with boredom, lonleyness and stress - and I believe that DH drinks too much too. This often makes him really angry - I certainly don't feel unsafe with him (he has never been violent - punched a wall in frustration once during an argument, but nothing else) but today it is about 8pm, he has been drinking since 2pm in the afternoon and has just asked me to put more money in his bank account so he can buy more. I don't want to do that, but I don't want him to feel I am controlling all the money and what he can do either.

Really I need help with making some specific goals and 180s that I can try because I am lost. Things are most peaceful between us when I leave him completely alone and stay out of his way, but I am not sure if that is helping, or not.

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I am so glad you posted.You will surely get some insights here. There are many long standing issues to address. The best way to immediately set your goals and have a plan in place is to talk to a DB coach. They are the experts and will help you get on track with the support and guidance you need to turn things around. I would be happy to discuss further with you. Take good care.


Karen, Resource Coordinator
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karen@divorcebusting.com

Give me a call if you'd like to schedule an appointment to speak with a Divorce Busting® Coach.
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Welcome to the boards, you'll find a lot of good here.
I don't have any great advice to give at the moment....but I do wonder about your money situation. Why doesn't your H have direct access to both of your money. One thing I did learn in MC is not matter who brings in the money it belongs to you both. Having to ask for money was something that was demasculating fo my H and I didnt realize it (he worked but he paid rent and would sometimes need extra money around that time of the month to do other things). I immediately had my direct deposit changed over to a joint account and stopped saying "my money" and began to say "our money"...."my, mine" seems like a small thing but it definitely aids in being a relationship killer.

So I was curious if there was a serious specific reason he doesn't have direct access to household funds and is instead given the money to pay bills and personal needs? If not then it can be a quick and simple 180 to fix that one issue.


me: 30 H:30
tgthr:7 m:4
no kids
5 counseling sessions initiated by H as a LR: Oct 2012
long distance marriage b/c of work since Nov 2012
official BD: July 2013
nothing filed
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With what you described about the money, him not having a job, supporting his drinking- I think this is a major issue. You are enabling him to not work, by supporting him financially. I know you are treading lightly, but I would reconsider how you are approaching this.

Were the roles ever reversed and he was the sole earner? How did he control the money then? If he wanted the money to go buy illegal drugs would you still give it to him? (Alcohol is a drug but not illegal of course.)

I understand he's a SAHD and that is a hard job, what kind of social circles does he have? Could he do part time work? I think there are examples in DR where the SAHS goes to work just to pull them out of their funk, give them adult interaction.


H: 29
WAXW: 30

Bomb Drop- 9/9/13
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D Final- 5/21/14
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Well Spinning Jenny, what do you really want? Big question, I know.

Ever heard of AlAnon? From your description and words it seems alcohol has become a problem in your house.

I don't believe you can fix a marriage when that's an active issue because no one's relating honestly. What do you think?


Me 57/H 58
M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13

Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do.
I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering.
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Thanks so much for the replies.

Kdog - I might be enabling him not to work by supporting him financially, but then again, he is enabling me to pursue my career by doing much of the childcare and most of the housework, so I guess it works both ways. I know he does want to work and is looking for work, but the economy is bad. I've let him know if he wants to do voluntary work or training, we can afford for him to do that. But I don't want to make this decision for him.

Regarding finances - he's never been the sole earner and we've never had shared accounts. He generally paid a % of his income directly into my account to cover his share of the household expenses and had the rest to do as he pleased with. Now I pay a %of my income into his account for household expenses (food shopping, petrol for his car etc) and extra for his own needs to do as he pleases with. The rest of the bills and my own transport costs are covered from my account and the amount of money I have for personal fun money is probably about the same as his. We could open a joint account - we just never have before - but I would not be adverse to it.

Drinking - yes - this is a problem for us both, I think. I didn't have anything yesterday and nothing today, and I am planning on continuing this. Neither of us are physically dependent, but I know I over-use alcohol to get rid of anxiety, boredom and loneliness and I want to stop that. I think DH uses it for much the same reasons.

What do I want? I want to be more emotionally independent - not reliant on DH or the booze to deal with my negative feelings. I want to get more exercise and take better care of my emotional and physical health. I want to have a better relationship with my children - spend more time doing fun things with them. I want to balance my work and family life better, and spend less time on social media. I want to find a way to treat my husband with respect without stifling him or mothering him or expecting him to mother me. I want to find some actions I can take that will make changes to my life and our relationship, rather than just endlessly having conversations that turn into arguments and don't really cause any change. I want to have fun again.

My DH is isolated - has few friends and not a huge amount of close contact with his family. He's always been this way - he's an introverted person. He used to have many interests, but I don't see that so much now. I think he's possibly depressed, but I also think he feels that so much of his time is spent care-taking me or the children that he has no time for himself any more. That is why I originally suggested we send our youngest to daycare for a couple of days a week - to give him that time. So I suppose I could also say that as much as I want to GAL for myself, I'd like to see him GAL too and I want to stop getting in the way of that, if I am, but I don't want to do it for him, either (of course I couldn't, but I mean, I know I can't and I don't want to try).

How does all that sound?

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I dont recall you mentioning any BDs from your H...so that's great.

I say as far as him not initiating sex....if you feel its appropriate for your sitch, you can do a 180 in that area by not initiating for a while. But maybe start "speaking" his love language more instead (if you haven't read 5 love languages you may want to check that out). "Speaking" his love language may cause him to "wake up" and begin to be more intimate with you in return.

Other 180s for that you can do fornyour self that may also benefit your sex life... working out, maybe go out and buy your self a few new outfits....also some new "night time" outfits for bed if your current ones arent so eye catching wink just do things for your self that make you feel good
, they will help with that independence you want to find and I'm sure he'll begin to see a change and be attracted to that confidence as well.

GAL by yourself a couple times a week and do the things you love...a hobby you enjoy. That will help you with you indepenence as well. Sometimes invite your H...but even if he doesnt want to go, still go with out him. Then also find some GAL activities you can do with your kids since you want to work on the relationships with them as well.

That's great you see where the alcohol comes into play for your self and that you've ready decided to take a break from drinking.


me: 30 H:30
tgthr:7 m:4
no kids
5 counseling sessions initiated by H as a LR: Oct 2012
long distance marriage b/c of work since Nov 2012
official BD: July 2013
nothing filed
1/1/14 I dropped the rope
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Quote:
Neither of us are physically dependent, but I know I over-use alcohol to get rid of anxiety, boredom and loneliness and I want to stop that.


How do you know this?

Does it matter?

How are you going to work on the WHY of your alcohol use?


Me 57/H 58
M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13

Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do.
I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering.
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Originally Posted By: labug

How do you know this?

Does it matter?

How are you going to work on the WHY of your alcohol use?


I know I am not physically dependent because when I don't drink for a few days, or a couple of weeks - whatever - I suffer no physical withdrawal symptoms whatsoever. I have professional experience in this area. And it matters inasmuch as I know while I may need social and emotional support and therapy to control my drinking, I am not in medical need of withdrawal support. Why do you ask? Am I misunderstanding what you're asking me?

The why of my alcohol use - good question. At the moment I am looking for ways to GAL, look after myself, treat myself, care for myself that don't involve booze nor unreasonable emotional demands on my husband. I actually made a list this afternoon!

@Mimi - no, no BDs - or rather, ones said in anger or while drunk, but quickly brushed under the carpet. As was said before, there's no honest communication when drink is involved - for both me and him. But I do feel that it's only going to take one more argument - or perhaps an external crisis - financial, children being ill, something like that - to finish us off. I do feel like he's dangling by a thread, and only in the house because he's not got resources to move elsewhere right now.

I love your suggestions for 180s. I think he does need to be pursued a little. To be honest, I have no idea how to do this. But I can work on finding out. A bit of trial and error. And certainly a hair cut and a new set of clothes never hurt anyone.

I was GALing out with friends this evening. They don't know the situation and I didn't speak about it. They'd just had some good news, so we spoke mainly about them, but it was fun and happy and I felt good when I came home.

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I am back. It has been a very long time since I've posted.

I think we're still on the brink - and perhaps the brink is the only place we'll ever be.

We sleep separately, there's very little sex, we do spend time together when I initiate it, but we don't when I don't make it happen.

His complaints are the same - mainly to do with me being controlling and him not having enough space. I have withdrawn as much as I can while still living in the same house, and the result is that we're having an in-house separation in all but name.

I'm not sure what he wants. I do ask - but he seems to experience my asking as pressure, or control. He seems happier when I leave him alone. I GAL, which means I have friends, interests and hobbies that I really enjoy pursuing, and time alone with both my children - again, which I enjoy. But this seems to drive us further apart. I have worked a lot on my communication and I've been really good with my boundary of speaking respectfully to him and not allowing him to speak disrespectfully to me. Which means we don't talk, because often when we speak he does nasty sarcastic impressions of me, or interrupts me to tell me that I am mentally ill and can't be trusted (I do have a history of a mental illness, which was treated and is resolved and I have tools for maintaining my health which I implement daily - exercise, meditation, etc) or he tells me what I think and feel (not always accurate) and then responds as if that's the truth. It's like he's carrying on a conversation with himself sometimes. So I leave.

There's not really been a BD. He's made it clear to me he does not trust my perception of things, that he wants more time alone and separate lives, and he's here for the kids. This isn't mind-reading - this is what he verbally says to me when I try to initiate conversation about improving our relationship. I am still the main wage earner and he does not work, but is at home with the kids. They're both in full time school now.

I feel like I am heading towards a BD of my own. I believe that he deserves support and patience because many of our problems relate to how I behaved when I was sick, and my refusal to seek treatment for too long. That was my fault. I have corrected it but of course the impact on him isn't just going to disappear because I want it to. I also feel resentful that I am here, willing, financially supporting all of us, ready to listen and make changes, and he seems to be content with the situation as it is even though he knows I am unhappy. He is not having an affair (to my knowledge - I don't believe he is and have no suspicions) but it feels like cake-eating to me anyway. It seems he has all the benefits of being married (the stability, the security, the house, the ability to choose not to be in paid work) without any of the responsibilities of being a husband. But I don't want him to be a husband because he 'owes' me. I want a partner and I want him to want me. I don't think he does, and I am still here, two years later, and that feels hard - like I'm selling myself out and losing my integrity.

I know I am at the very least 50% responsible for where we are and I want to put in 100% effort. At the same time, I resent him assuming that I will continue to financially support him into the long term when the marriage seems to be a practical convenience for him. He very badly wants to do a training course that starts next year. This is a huge improvement for him and really positive. I've not actually seen him want anything for himself and his own enjoyment for a long time. I think it's a good decision and suited to his interests and abilities. I do want him to be able to achieve his goals. But (no mind-reading) it appears his plan is for me to financially support him in that while knowing he is not really 'in' our marriage.

I suppose we could carry on like this for years and years. But I don't want to. I'd prefer to improve things rather than end things but I don't know how to improve things without a basic of respect and participation from him, and I don't have that.

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Welcome to the board

Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.

The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/
http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm

You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!

Get out and Get a Life (GAL).

DETACH.


Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.

Have NO EXPECTATIONS.

Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.

Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.

Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:

I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072

Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095

Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414

Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566

Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096

Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153

For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554

Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224

Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764

Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574

The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619

Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon


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Thanks for the post and the links, Cadet. I think what I really need to work on is validation. He very very rarely tells me what he wants or feels, then gets angry when he doesn't get what he wants or feels. So I think I could look for the rare occasions where he does let me know what is happening inside, and validate that.

I am not sure if all the advice really applies to our situation though. I don't think he wants to leave me - I am sure he's not happy, but he seems to be content enough with me leaving him alone and us living like housemates. I couldn't go more 'dark' and still be a co-parent and live in this house. We have entirely separate social lives and when I go out he rarely asks or is interested in where I am going.

I am going to think this over more - but I wonder if it is me who needs to BD.

I am not okay with a roommates relationship and I'm not okay with us pretending this is a marriage when it isn't. I don't feel okay about financially supporting him. I am not happy with the lack of intimacy. I am not sure I can fix these on my own, but I am willing to own my part in them. I can't read his mind, and I can't meet needs I don't know he has. I don't want to give an ultimatum, but I do feel it would be more honest for us to end the relationship, or have a physical and financial separation. I would be open to that, and to meeting regularly to talk and improve things. But I am not okay with carrying on being his paycheque and nothing more.

If anyone has any advice for me, or thinks I am looking at this in the wrong way, I want to hear it. I can stand brutal and direct feedback and am open to that.

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Pursuit and distance really makes sense to me. We have had the pattern - from very early on in our relationship - that I was the one to initiate meeting, dates, contact, conversations, etc. I don't think I have ever felt or been certain that he'd 'choose me'. When the children arrived and there was less time for him to be alone, my pursuing him used to cause arguments, he'd distance himself, I'd chase him further, and round and round we went.

I really had a lightbulb moment about this a couple of years ago and dropped the rope - not of the relationship - but in trying to get him to spend time with me, pay attention to me, etc. I felt that once he felt safer and more in control of his own time, he would, perhaps, start imitating contact with me. That has not happened. Maybe it was the wrong decision?

I will read more and think about this further but any advice would be more than welcome.

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Jenny,

Get the book Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus. It is an easy read and will give you some perspective as to why your husband acts the way he does.

Good Luck


Me: 30's W: 30's M: 12yrs
EA: Started 3/2015
MC Started: 4/2015
She moved out and served 6/2015
PA: Confirmed 10/5/2015
2 young kids

"If you do not stand for something you will fall for anything."
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Thank you for your reply, @WhyUs. It sounds like you're having a much harder time than me. I hope you're okay.

I read that book years and years ago but I don't remember much of what was in it. I think I will go to the library tomorrow and check it out. I need to get out of the house a bit anyway.

Another horrible interaction this morning. He came to me and asked me to put an amount of money in his account so he can go out and have fun. Well, he texted me. We've just been on holiday (last month) and the budget is in tatters so I went to him (in person) and asked him if we could go through expenses and decide on an amount of 'fun money' for each of us. He said he didn't want to waste any time talking to me, or waste his day on a conversation.

I guess that's the way things are at the moment - I am to fund him. All our physical needs are met - house, car, food, occasional holidays etc. There isn't really that much 'fun money' leftover at the end of the month. What there is, we should split down the middle, I think. But he wants more than is fair and is unwilling to discuss it with me.

I put half of the money he asked for in his account, showed him the budget and explained why. He walked away in the middle of the conversation.

I suppose a 180 would be to put him in total control of the family finances. But to be honest, this feels like I'd be acting like a door mat. And if we're going to do that, we have to have a conversation about the change - for a start - we'd need to go to the bank together to make changes to the accounts. But he won't talk to me or go anywhere with me. He isn't really interested in a marriage, and if we're only going to be housemates, then he can find his own fun money.

I am really stuck as to the right thing to do in this conversation. He's been clear he's only with me for practicalities, and I want better than that. If he doesn't want to be a husband, I don't see why he should get the benefits of being a husband. I don't feel I am getting any benefits from being his wife. But then again - it shouldn't be tit for tat like this, someone has to start, and it may as well be me.

I am just not sure how I am supposed to start.

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Why did you stop after just a few post?

He sounds as if he may feel emasculated. Traditionally, he would be the protector and provider for his family, and the W was most often the parent that nourished the children and kept the home fires burning. You could easily ruin the arrangement (SAHD) by talking to him and treating him as one your kids. Perhaps the kids see Mom as the one in control, IDK. Men have a huge desire to be admired by the W and kids. They also need to be respected as a man. Although our society may be more accepting to men filling these roles, rather than women, trouble can arise between the spouses. If he feels his role is beneath your or less important, it could be the foundation for other problems. That places some responsibility on you to not do things to deflate his male ego.

Tell me, has he ever worked and you stayed at home? If so, how was the MR?


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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I think I might have stopped because I felt like things were getting better. I think the calmness that set in when I stopped chasing him did make things better - less fiery - and I hoped that given enough time, there'd be a change and when he had the space he needed, he'd come to me and start communicating what he wanted. I haven't seen that happen. And I haven't been as diligent as I wanted to be about my own personal goals, so I am back.

I think he might feel emasculated. He says it is humiliating to ask me for money. T change that, we'd need to go to the bank together to get a joint account. He won't do that.

When we met, we both worked. I earned a lot more than him, but we paid for dates and fun activities 50/50. He came to my house and I cooked more often than I went to him because he lived in a shared house and mine was closer to the train station so it was easier for him to come direct from work.

I had a year where I was a SAHM and he had stopped paid work and was a full time student. We lived on freelance income I made from working at home, at night, and savings from when before he went to University and before I stopped paid work.

For the past three years he's been a SAHD. Before our son went to school, he was in childcare three days a week to give him alone time. Now he's at school, for the past year he's been able to have time to himself to do what he wants between 9.30am and 3pm. He does most of the housework and house maintenance though I pitch in at the weekends.

I think my chasing has always been a problem in our relationship. There's a pattern where he's given me the silent treatment, sulked and been very passive aggressive. I have to work out what I've done to displease him. These matters are often, for him, about respect. But because he won't talk to me about them, I am mainly in the dark.

I do find it hard to respect him. For me, it isn't to do with our roles. If he wanted to work, he could - but I think that's a decision for him to make. I don't resent working. I love my job. What I find hard to respect is the way he won't tell me what he wants, won't tell me what he feels, uses silent treatment, assumes he knows the reasons for why I do things, assumes he knows what I am thinking. If he wants to do the money differently, I am totally open to that. But I need to hear what he wants. If I make a unilateral decision to change my working hours, or how the money works in our relationship, then I'm being controlling again.

It is pretty much like living with and supporting another child and I'm sure he's aware I feel like that.

I guess for me to stay in this relationship I'd need to see some big changes on his part and for him to start communicating with me like an adult, even if he thinks I won't like or agree with what he wants to say.

For him to engage with me in this relationship - I have no idea what he needs. I would love to know. I am open to him telling me, and to making changes.

My boundary is that I can't continue as it is any longer. I can only change myself. I need to figure out what those changes would be.

We have a plan to sell the house and move a few miles away to make my work commute easier. I want to tell him that I am not comfortable buying a new house with him while our relationship is like this. I think we should sell the house, bank the money (maybe split it) and live separately for a while.

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I can do more around the house. And certainly, if we live apart I will have to do more around the house.

So I'll get out now and do the food shop. He usually does that and I don't think he enjoys it.

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Worse and worse. Me doing the food shop is being patronising and controlling. I said I thought I needed to do more around the house, and was trying to pull my weight as I am not at work today. He said 'how nice for you,' and is back to doing what he normally does when we're in the house together, which is playing computer games or watching YouTube videos with his headphones on.

What do I want?

Right now, he is not a person I want to be with. I want validation, a partner, someone who is interested in my thoughts and feelings. I want him to initiate conversations with me about the things that are important to him - whatever they are - and participate in plans for our future, if we have one. He's not doing any of those things and he isn't interested in talking about changes that I or he needs to make.

He seems happier when I pretend that I am happy with the situation. When I am bright and breezy, don't initiate any conversation, don't ask him for time, conversation, attention or sex and don't show that I am upset or angry. Doing that has made our daily interactions fairly peaceful, but it has also made me feel like a doormat and like I am selling myself out.

There's no real way for me to sit him down and do a BD. He won't believe me anyway, and at the moment there's no chance for a conversation. I can't force him to listen to me, and I certainly can't force him to talk to me. He seems to experience even me asking open questions like, 'how are you doing?' and 'what would you like to do today? as intrusive and controlling. If I want to listen to him, I also need to put up with sarcasm, nastiness, abuse and gas-lighting. That is a boundary for me - I can't let myself be in conversations where I'm being verbally abused. So I leave, and there's no more communication. I don't know why he can't or won't speak to me like an adult about what is going on in his mind and what he wants, but that is his choice and I can't control it.

I think in my case it is going to be actions speak louder than words. I don't plan on leaving the home, and we already sleep apart. He is legally entitled to live here and he has no financial resources of his own, so there's no way he's going to go anywhere either. We are planning to sell the house. I can call the estate agent in the morning and get the ball rolling on that. I can also visit a solicitor and work out what a financial settlement would be. I think we'd just split the equity and go our separate ways. Spousal support is very rare in this country and would only apply if he was unable to work or we'd been together decades. He's a young man.

My main feeling is that I've been collaborating with him on pretending this is a real marriage and I am content with it. I am not. I feel like this is a breaking point for me and I need to take some kind of action to make a change.

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Jenny, wow! you are in a tough spot. I wonder how many wives feel this way before dropping the bomb on their husbands. We know that for men actions do speak louder than words. You could tell him a 1000 times in 1000 different ways and he may not be hearing you. I am not there so I cannot say for sure.

It sounds like you are starting to build resentment towards him and lose respect for him. To see a woman feel the way you feel hurts my heart because I wonder if my WW felt this way about me. I wish I could go back in time and change the necessary things to fix our M.

I wonder if your husband knows what is coming, what he is doing. I hope he does not get the BD and then realize he has to start trying while you have already given up.

I think you should stay with DB and perhaps get a coach.

I will say that one approach that may help with the money is to approach it as though you need his help. Men like to feel like they are helping fix something. They are problem solvers. Be careful not to criticize his ideas, even if they are dumb. If he has a way to come up with a new budget just say, wow, I never thought of doing it that way. (Your R is fragile so he may not be able to handle the normal debate).

I will post as more ideas come to mind.


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@WhyUs

Thank you. I'm sorry to have hurt your heart - I think I'm going to gain perspective here from husbands to help me understand what is going on in my DH's head.

It has not always been like this. I can trace it back to my illness after my son was born. During that time I was very controlling and emotionally manipulative and I 'trained' him to acquiesce to everything I wanted by big emotional outbursts. He's very non-confrontational. I think he's passive aggressive now because I taught him to be, and because it was safer for him (I was not violent, but I was very very explosive and threatened self harm on occasion) and because he felt my emotional outbursts were damaging to the kids (he was right) and it was his duty to do whatever it took to stop them.

I've embraced what I needed to do to get healthy. I think I've stepped back as far as I can to give him the space he needs as an equal in the relationship. It might be that it is too late.

I've been thinking a lot about the money this afternoon. In the past we both drank irresponsibly and to medicate anxiety and depression. That is no longer an issue for either of us. I've replaced drinking with healthier hobbies like knitting and meditation! He's spending more time alone and because there aren't emotional outbursts any longer, I think his general anxiety levels might be lower too. Money is still an issue.

I think one thing I could do is turn over the responsibility of the money entirely to him. He won't talk to me about working on it jointly, so I take care of it all, and he needs to ask me for money, then he gets angry about that. I know he finds it embarrassing and demeaning. I suppose he might think that I am trying to 'force' a relationship conversation by telling him that we'll have to carry on as we are (me in charge of the money) until we can talk together about an alternative. I believe he might not believe that a conversation with me is safe, or that he will be heard. This is mind reading, but it is all I have at the moment.

So I could just give him all the cards and financial information, give him complete access to my accounts, and stay out of it. I mention the drinking because this is not something I would do if he was still drinking irresponsibly. But he's not. And he's reliable and diligent towards our family in practical ways. He's never been abusive and he's never been reckless with our finances.

Doing this would be a MASSIVE 180 for me, as money has always been an anxiety issue for me. I grew up in a family where money was very very tight and the cause of lots of insecurity. I wonder if doing this would show respect and trust and make him feel less emasculated. My preference would be a joint account and a monthly joint discussion about the budget, but perhaps he needs to initiate that from a position of feeling powerful, rather than me insisting on it before he can have full access.

I don't know. But I can't think of anything else, and it's either this, or the BD. I don't want to do that. Talking isn't an option and an action is needed. His actions tell me that he's not interested in emotional connection, but he is committed to the well being of our children and to his responsibilities as a father. They also, perhaps, tell me that he doesn't feel like an equal and doesn't feel safe (maybe?) in expressing what he wants. So this would be a strong gesture for us.

I am going to devote more thought to it. But I think I could do this and see what happens. If we end up having to live separately, it would be very easy to change back.

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Hi SJ -

One of the things that stuck out to me in reading DR was about how you can change your behaviors that will lead to changes in his behaviors. For example, giving positive reinforcement when he does something good can help give incentive for him to keep doing those things.

I dont know your whole story, but I think before you start trying to make giant changes in financial structure and family life and things like that, you may want to start small. Do some experimenting. You tried grocery shopping, and that failed....what else can you try?

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Maybe starting smaller is right.

The kids are both having sleep overs tonight and it's rare we get a time properly to ourselves. I get the sense that his mood at the moment is because he's dreading being alone with me.

I've just said, 'it would be great to go out for a meal tonight. I've seen this restaurant it would be good to try. I'm going to go at about 6pm and it would be great if you would join me. If you don't want to, that's fine, I'll take a book.' I said it in a nice tone and smiling - not passive aggressive or grumpy.

He said, 'I think there's no point spending the money on a meal out neither of us are going to enjoy. You'd probably have a better time on your own with a book.'

I said, 'well, I think I'd have a better time with you. But it's fine. I'll leave at six so there's no problem if you change your mind.'

He sort of grunted at me and put his headphones on - which is what he normally does when he doesn't want to speak or be spoken to.

To be honest, I'm not sure there's any point to this at all. There's a point where you have to listen to what someone else is telling you, even if they're not telling you in words. The message I am getting is that he does not want a close relationship with me. I am not willing to be a distant housemate any more.

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Originally Posted By: SpinningJenny
Maybe starting smaller is right.

I've just said, 'it would be great to go out for a meal tonight. I've seen this restaurant it would be good to try. I'm going to go at about 6pm and it would be great if you would join me. If you don't want to, that's fine, I'll take a book.' I said it in a nice tone and smiling - not passive aggressive or grumpy.


Unfortunately, I think youre still too big. Going out, spending money on alone time for an hour or two is a lot of pressure (somehow....). Its clear he doesnt want to spend a ton of time with you talking or doing things. So, Id try to avoid the long commitments like a dinner out.

I would start by saying "thank you" or "I appreciate ___" or make a snack for him.....Im not sure exactly. But start by doing something small. Consistently. for a few days. see what changes that imparts. Then add a new thing. Or change that thing. And keep repeating.

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Thank you. That's a really good idea and I understand what you mean now.

I'm pretty upset so I am going to go out on a walk and treat myself to a nice meal out with a good book. I will check in tomorrow.

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Jenny,

You are not the reason it hurt my heart. It is just that I am going through this and feel what I am reading sometimes. I hope that you are able to get through to your husband.

Money is such a stressful thing in many marriages. I handled the money in my marriage and my WW said the same things that your husband says. I hated handling the money. I asked her several times to just take over. She never would. Now, she accuses me of controlling her by not letter her spend money. No matter how many times I tried to tell her something is not in the budget she would think I was trying to control her. She said she hated always having to ask me for money. Yet, she never made any effort to work on the budget or keep up with expenses...so frustrating.


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I know what you mean. It is really frustrating. I feel like I am dealing with a child sometimes and I am sure it shows, which will only feed into the problem.

I can't take responsibility for his passivity, and I am sure you know you can't take responsibility for the choices your wife made and makes now.

It is hard though. I want him to choose me. What that would look like right now is putting in a bit of effort to talk to me about his feelings, ask for what he wants, and address his side in the relationship. It could be there's lots more on my side to work on, but I can't mind-read. Sometimes I think the silent treatment is a kind of punishment for him. Sometimes I think he claims I am controlling him because it is easier for him than facing up to his own decisions awanted the relationship to improve, I would be committed to being in it for the long haul. If I knew he wanted to leave me, we could set that in motion. But he's stonewalling me. It feels really childish and I feel incredibly angry at him for it. Sometimes I think he claims I am controlling him because it is easier for him than facing up to his own decisions and inability to make them.

Then again - he is making decisions. Just like your wife made a decision not to work on the budget or keep up with expenses. He's making a decision to ignore me, to decline conversations, and to speak to me consistently in ways that mean I have to end the conversation to protect myself from the gas-lighting and nastiness.

I am struggling with a lot of anger tonight. I behaved horribly when I was ill, and I do not blame him if there are lasting effects on him from that. I should have sought treatment earlier and I should have controlled my emotions and behaviour better when I was ill. I am sure he was suffering terribly and felt that he was doing the right thing. He was not a bad man. But these days he seems to be enjoying the limbo - of being in the relationship without having to put in any effort to improve it. I think there's a part of him that is punishing me. I don't know what to do about that.

The more I think about it, the more I think things will not improve unless I leave. He's communicating to me he doesn't want me, and for my own self respect I think I need to listen to that and act accordingly. The more I read here the more I think this is cake-eating in another form.

And I am really, really sad. This was a chance for us to spend some time together. We didn't have to have a big relationship talk, or a talk about money, or anything like that. We could have just had a friendly night. But he doesn't want to be my friend.

The more I type here, the more I am coming up against the fact that I think it is over between us and he's too passive and comfortable to actually make the move, which means I will have to.

Sorry to be such a downer. I've been trying really hard to give him what he needs but I think what he wants is to be single.

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SJ -
I agree that actions send a much more powerful message than words. And I certainly understand where you are coming from on your "roommates" concept. Nobody wants to be in that kind of relationship.

Ive seen the analogy on here a lot about a wounded dog. You cant mistreat a dog for years and then be upset with it for biting you. It's kind of the same thing here, in my opinion.

You can walk out and leave him, but what will that really get you. No matter what, he is still the father of your children. You will always have interactions with him. Why not start making those better now. Then you can figure out what you want to do on your R side. If you were divorced right this second, would you jump into a new R? If the answer is no, then Id suggest waiting and trying to improve things.

The way I read your situation, you noticed a problem 2 years ago and thought if you ignored it, it would go away. I read it as you imagined that "time would heal the wounds." I think its time to change your behaviors. It only takes one to tango. Time to start dancing and see what happens!

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Where will it get me?

My self respect, I think. The space to stop feeling like I'm constantly having to perform - to 'earn' a conversation or to 'earn' him treating me with basic civility.

You're right, I did think that time would heal. If I knew what he needed from me, I'd do it. But he won't tell me.

What I need is to know that he's in this. And I believe that he's not. So I can carry on living for, and financing the life of, someone who doesn't want me. Or I can leave and get on with mourning my mistakes and healing from this.

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Originally Posted By: SpinningJenny
What I need is to know that he's in this. And I believe that he's not. So I can carry on living for, and financing the life of, someone who doesn't want me. Or I can leave and get on with mourning my mistakes and healing from this.


SJ -
He's not. I think it's clear that hes not in it. Right now.

That doesnt mean he always wont be. But, you have to change first. As much as it [censored], the onus of responsibility falls on the person that wants more. So start making the small changes.

My guess is that if you BD, or if you file, it wont faze him. I dont think it will "wake him up". I dont think it will save your marriage. If you want to be divorced, fine, get divorced. Its easy to GET divorced. Its a lot harder to BE divorced.

I just "met" you today, but it doesnt sound like thats what you want. Start small. Make changes. Monitor the effects.

Whats another month to try to turn things around?

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By the way. I wish to God that several months ago, someone had given my wife the advice that Im giving you right now. While my situation never got to how you described it, she decided it wasnt worth it and is walking away.

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Thanks, Azzork.

I could do a month. Small things, in a month. He deserves that from me. I can accept he's not in it for now, and I think you're right. Me leaving will probably not make much difference to him and only a little bit for me.

I just have no idea what to do. I have lots of GAL. He prefers me to leave him alone, so I do. I back up his discipline in front of the kids. I am courteous and thank him for cooking, driving us places, etc.

I can look for things to give compliments on and show appreciation on that.

Is there anything else you can suggest?

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Unfortunately....the HOW is not usually my strong suit. Hopefully someone else can chime in.

But have you read DR? There's tons of examples in there!

I'd focus on reinforcing positive behaviors.

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I have read DR, but ages and ages ago. And then I got rid of it.

I know, I know. I've just ordered again.

I had a horrible dream last night. Woke up in the middle of the night really upset. He came in (must have heard me crying out or talking in my sleep) and was kind to me, and helped me put on an audiobook to listen to do drift off again.

I can do this for 30 days and then review. I can.

So today - library, garden, work, time with kids, walk alone. I'll cook, to give him a break.

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Originally Posted By: SpinningJenny
I can do this for 30 days and then review. I can.

So today - library, garden, work, time with kids, walk alone. I'll cook, to give him a break.

SJ -
Great! Lets do it!

First things first. Your marriage is not going to be perfect in a month. So, Id recommend starting with two things.

1) Start with a list of goals. What things are you going to try for this week? Or this month? Some ideas....
- say thank you to H once a day
- cook dinner twice a week
- exercise _____ ?
- say hello/goodbye when leaving the house ?
- something about money ?
- something about PMA ?
- something relating to validation/empathy ?
- something about GAL ?
- and so on

2) I think you should list out some signs of progress. What kinds of things do you hope to see. I think you need some criteria for you to examine in a month to see if things are improving. Some ideas:
- He will say hello to you when he sees you
- He will have a 5 minute conversation with you about anything
- He will smile at you
- He will touch you on purpose
- He will send you a text message about something other than money/kids
- He will say thank you about anything
- and so on...whatever yo think would be the very first actions if you are on the road to "a happy marriage"

Today will be a good day!

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Azzork,
For not being your strong point these are great to get going with.



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These are really great ideas to get on with. And I can see that too high expectations will set me back. I need to think more about this.

Right now, I don't want to waste the sunshine. I plan to get out in the garden with the kids for a while before starting to cook.

These are great ideas and already I feel more hopeful.

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Jenny,

When women have problems they want to talk about it. They want it validated by their spouse or friend. When a man has problems he goes into his little cave and tries to forget them for a while. Men and Women do different things to deal with the stress of problems.

I do not know how long he has been in his cave but my recommendation would be to give him space. Let him come out on his own. I know it is frustrating but the more you pressure him the more he will hide so to speak.

Be polite and nice to him, just don't put any demands on him right now. If you want to talk about things make it seem as though you are asking him for help. Let him fix it in his eyes. This will at least get the ball rolling. I think this is a good way to at least get him back to the table.


Me: 30's W: 30's M: 12yrs
EA: Started 3/2015
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Very good advice WhyUs.

Us guys love our caves and are really grouchy if we are disturbed in them. There's no coaxing us out you've simply got to wait until we've worked the problem through in our heads (and it may take us a while because we aren't female :-) ) and then we'll want to talk about it, so be ready. Don't under any circumstance when we do start to speak interrupt or say things like, it's taken you that long to get to there!? Just listen, be patient and validate you'll be rewarded handsomely.


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WhyUs + Beagley -

I agree with all of the points you guys are saying. The way I interpret this situation is that SJ has had enough of waiting around while her H sits in his cave. Its been two years since her original posting and shes ready to walk away from the cave. I agree that going into the cave and trying to pull him out isnt going to accomplish anything, but leaving a trail of crumbs at the entrance MIGHT work.

You can see some of the goals and stuff I recommended ^^^. Keep it all very low pressure and look for small steps.

What do you guys think?

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Two years???? I did not realize it has been that long. Yes bread crums are the way to go. Follow the advice on interaction with him though.


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Azzork, largely agreed.

The slightly contentious observation I'd make and at the risk of appearing judgemental SJ (which I sincerely don't wish to be) is that it seems like you have not been leaving your H alone for very long, over the 2 years, so he's very entrenched in his cave.

If anything I'd be encouraged as he's still with you, it's just that you've got into some tricky positions that gently need maneuvering out of. Frankly, a BD is acting like someone who is ill-informed and in a fog, which you aren't SJ. Maybe it's better to think of your sitch as being at a point where the Last or Last, Last Resort Technique (LRT) needs to be potentially employed and then you can adapt and fit the DB strategy around what you do, rather than something potentially a bit maverick. Have you got and read the book yet?

The detach element to DB applies here (read up on it on here, or in the book) and until it's strictly adhered to, or as close as you can get given your sitch, you'll not make any real or sustained progress.

You've agreed to one more month before deploying a BD (still think this approach is wrong), make that a month where you go no where near his cave. Keep as big a distance as you can between you and your H, no crumbs, no nothing (sorry Azzork). If you get some movement from him, leave a mere morsel nothing more, be very frugal, to encourage more, but if you leave nothing you'll get more movement anyway IF he's ready to talk. Fight any instinct to reach out or fix him and he may turn around but if you don't give him space he'll stick where he is, almost guaranteed.


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Originally Posted By: Beagley

You've agreed to one more month before deploying a BD (still think this approach is wrong), make that a month where you go no where near his cave. Keep as big a distance as you can between you and your H, no crumbs, no nothing (sorry Azzork). If you get some movement from him, leave a mere morsel nothing more, be very frugal, to encourage more, but if you leave nothing you'll get more movement anyway IF he's ready to talk. Fight any instinct to reach out or fix him and he may turn around but if you don't give him space he'll stick where he is, almost guaranteed.

As for the one month, I agree on some level. But I think one month of seriously doing some work and tracking the progress is better than giving up today and BD/filing.

As for doing "nothing" by his cave, I inderstand what you mean on some level. On an emotional level I DEFINITELY agree. No R talk, no deep convos. But I do think doing things to reinforce his positive behaviors is important. Being appreciative, validating, etc. I'm not suggesting she walk by his computer room in her underwear.

Take a look at some of the goals I listed on the last page. I mentioned I'm not great at it. Add stuff!!

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Your suggested goals are a great scaffold for SJ to work from, I can only think of a few colouring in suggestions, nothing any more concrete.

How do you feel SJ now that you've had a few (former and no doubt future repeat offender) cave dwellers give their 2 cents?


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Thanks so much for the feedback, gentlemen.

How do I feel? More and less baffled. I feel like I can take my husband's cave-dwelling less personally. And yes, while I've been moving away from him and we've been much more distant over the past two years, it hasn't been consistent on my part that I've left him alone.

On the other hand, I want a partner. Someone who is able to speak up for their needs, tell me what they want and don't want, and deal with the fact that I have wants and needs too. I don't want to be babied, I don't expect him to spend his life meeting my every whim. But I do expect someone emotionally robust enough to deal with the normal actions of family life - budgeting, shopping, etc. And I do expect to be able to ask, calmly and with respect, for what I need. And sometimes get it.

I need to think more. And right now I need to sleep. It's been a good day for me today. I was kind and friendly to my husband. I cooked his favourite thing and instead of hiding away in my home office, I sat in the living room and knitted this evening. I didn't expect or initiate conversation. But I feel like a punished child banished to her room these days, and I guess I don't have to live that life if I don't want to. He doesn't banish me to my room, I sneak away there to leave him alone. I don't want to do that anymore though.

I will walk tomorrow and have a good long think. Amazon says DR is on its way.


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The BD book might still be on its way, but you've done quite a few of the things it suggests already. You'll have to retreat to your office to read the book, don't do so in front of your husband thinking it'll intrigue him, let your new behaviour do that for you.

You will feel more and less baffled for quite a while (if not all the time), what changes is stuff becoming less tangled as you'll find a path for yourself through to a better more peaceful and under control (in a nice way) place.

The needs you talk about above are understandable, they are what we all crave, if you put them to one side for a while you'll see some change that's for certain, you are going to have to cast off the need to be right and turn it into doing the right things.

Enjoy your walk and think; try not to let your thoughts get knotted up by over analysing. If you find your thoughts ending up in dark places, become aware of it and gently distract yourself by switching your focus to what your can hear or what you can see and stay with that for as long as you can.


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Thanks, Beagley.

I think I do have a problem with wanting to be right, rather than wanting to do the right thing. That is an issue I could work on.

Part of me thinks, why should I pretend to be less capable than I am, just to get him involved with our lives? Why shouldn't I expect an adult to act like an adult?

But that isn't working and hasn't been working for a long time.

I need to find a way to change my behaviour while keeping my respect for him and myself.

I think I need to reframe things. I've been reading your threads and I see how reframing has been helpful to you.

Perhaps he's not childish or incapable or sulking. The more I think about it, the more I think he's stuck in self-protective mode, and I do need to take a huge amount of responsibility for that. My illness was traumatic to him, the way I behaved was unacceptable to any normal adult, and it took me a long time to get over it (I had PTSD which is resolved or at least under control now). I think I need to show him that I am trustworthy - that I am not going to go back to this place.

Perhaps my leaving him alone has looked like sulking and withdrawal to him. I am certain he's sensed my lack of respect for the way he's dealt with things over the past couple of years. I can work on rectifying those things.

I have some work and errands to do this afternoon, but I will be checking in again later.

Thanks all, so much, for posting. It has actually helped a lot to have a man's perspective on these things.

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Your thinking really is moving in the right directions, you are turning a very significant corner and will benefit greatly from it.

When you get DB the book you'll really start to motor on, even more, as it will give you some subtle changes to what you are doing now if and when they are required.

Looking forward to your update posts.


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Good luck Spinning Jenny and do not forget to get "Men are From Mars, Women are from Venus." I think you have the right attitude and that will help tremendously.


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How would you treat him if you had exactly ZERO expectations of him?

Instead of being disappointed that he doesnt do something, be grateful when he DOES something.

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Thanks, WhyUs, Azzork and Beagley.

I do feel calmer - and I think that is something to work on. I know I tend to get emotional and can let his behaviour trigger an avalanche of feelings in me. I have a tendency to catostrophise (is that a word? make everything into a catastrophe) when with time and patience and some self control things would probably die down and not feel like the disaster I perceive them to be at the time.

We had a nice friendly day yesterday. I was in and out doing errands and getting new school shoes and supplies for the kids. Our son had a play date. I didn't hide in my home office in the evening, but sat with him in the sitting room reading my book. He was learning some new stuff on his guitar and I complemented him on how far he'd come with it (he really has - I never thought of him as musical but it's something new he's discovered he's really good at).

This morning was less good. I came down and he gave me a list of 'rules' for how things should be in the kitchen - where things should go, the right way to do a couple of things. This was out of the blue and not really connected to anything I had done or not done (I hadn't left anything out, hadn't rearranged the cupboards or anything) and I felt like a child being given a list of instructions. I got really annoyed.

I suppose a 180 here would be to apologise for my tone and to let it drop. Usually I'd want to talk to him about how I felt demeaned and controlled and how he shouldn't be treating me like a naughty child. I can let it go. I think.

Still waiting for the book to arrive, and still thinking about personal goals for this month.

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Sounds like you had a great day SJ including adding a new word to the dictionary. :-) Your son doing so well at something you didn't see him as having aptitude for shows he's found something he feels passionate about and so is willing to practise. He probably got that trait from you, so you've got two things to feel proud about.

The kitchen organisation thing does sound odd and it probably caught you unawares so getting annoyed is understandable.

Don't apologise, just letting it go is probably enough of a 180. If you do apologise, it might set him off on something else so the moment has passed.

Maybe next time you find yourself getting annoyed, recognise it early on, then apologise it'll probably shock him as it will seem like a big change and the argument will end quickly.

You are starting to change already as you are thinking about alternate strategies for future use rather than focussing on the hurt of a conversation or comment. Keep it up, you are doing great.


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Have you considered using a debit card? If he had a card, he would have access to the bank account and not have to ask you for money.

You will be greatly challenged this month, b/c both of you are displaying WAS signs. However, you are the one who came seeking help. Your emotional needs are running on empty, and you cannot understand why your H won't open his mouth and just talk. I bet that's how you see the solution for two adults who have a problem in the MR. (I'm right there with you).

You will have times that this feels very unfair, and you might even get tired of everyone telling you what you should, or shouldn't do, while H doesn't have to deal with it and can just hide in his darn cave. (Why don't women have caves? Answer: The world's population would probably die out).


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Originally Posted By: sandi2
...Why don't women have caves? Answer: The world's population would probably die out...

Women do have caves, they a simply light and airy, full of other women talking and there are lots of cushions. :-)


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grin


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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You've gone a bit quiet SpinningJenny, how are you?


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SpinningJenny,

Everything OK. Curious how you are doing.


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I am doing very well thank you, reading and posting on this BB, combined with regular re-reading of the DR book and practising non-spiritual Mindful Meditation means I continue to have wobbles but they are nowhere near as severe or frightening as they once were. Everyday my inner peace becomes greater and life becomes even better, which is something I never thought I'd be able to say when I first found the DR book.

As one of the goddesses on her, Vanilla recently showed me, if you are keen to see how someone else is getting on, click on their name (colored red) to the side of any of their posts and select "view posts" from the resulting menu. Then click "Topics Created" colored red towards the right hand side of the screen above the list of posts.

Keep posting SpinningJenny, it's one of the keys. Even if it's almost like a journal entry the impact it'll have over time is huge.


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Glad to hear you're meditating Beagley. One of the side effects of my situation was a renewed meditation practice. It couldn't have come at a better time. Nor could it be more powerful. If we can use it now when we're going through hell, imagine the power of an active practice when things are "normal"!

Keep up the great work.

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Hi Guys.

Sorry I stepped away - work got a bit busy and I wanted to concentrate on GAL, the kids, and making the most of what is left of the summer. Not much, in my part of the world.

I have DR and I am reading it and keeping it to myself. I've been observing DH a little less emotionally and I think he really does feel a lack of respect from me. I have stepped up on noticing and thanking him for his work in the house as well as making sure the kids pay attention to him - and letting him hear me when I am telling them this. I'm also just ignoring a lot of his criticisms - I don't know if he's tired, or worried, or wanting to pick a fight, or something else. I guess when he wants to communicate he will, and in the meantime I'm not wasting him on wondering why he feels like it's okay to have a meltdown over how and when I put out the recycling.

It's very cold between us. I think me being polite, generally complimentary and otherwise asking him for nothing suits him just fine. Obviously it hasn't been a long time, but I'm not really seeing any changes in his behaviour. I guess I'm feeling calmer because I've just concentrated on GAL and self-care and I'm putting as much effort into our relationship as he is. I can't say we're much more than housemates at the moment.

There is a debit card on my account - and we could get another one for him but that would involve him coming to the bank and giving them his details and signature, and he won't. Which means I either have to give him my debit card to use full time, or regularly transfer money into his account at his request, both of which he says make him feel demeaned, but I can't do anything about it unless he comes to the bank with me. He won't give a reason for not coming to the bank with me. I could argue about it with him, but there's no point. I do a budget, transfer as much money as possible over to him whenever I get paid. When he runs out, he asks me for more. He's not really irresponsible with money, but because he doesn't do the budget with me, I guess he feels like he's getting 'pocket money' and I'm keeping the rest (which isn't true).

I've been reading some of your situations and feeling so sad for you. I know my situation is very mild by comparison - he doesn't gamble, he isn't cheating on me, he isn't abusive and though he's generally withdrawn and irritable with me, he is a committed and reliable father who adores our children and lets them know it. I guess there's just nothing much between us anymore.

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Okay - so, for a journal entry:

goals for today:

finish two pressing tasks at work (working from home today)
take box of old baby things to charity shop
say three pleasant and complementary things to DH without expectation of any particular response from him
read with children
practice for my language class
read a chapter of DR
take a walk (no matter the weather!)


This is a kind of normal work-at-home-day for me (I am an academic, so my time is usually fairly flexible outside of teaching) but I'm wondering if there's something I should add to this?

Also - what does 'truth darts' mean? I've read about them here and there while exploring the boards. Are they a good thing or a bad thing?

Thank you for checking in again

SJ

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Just some journalling and random thoughts. Though I could really do with a response if anyone is still reading...

So - DH has been a little warmer to me today. Last night he came up and laid in bed with me for a while and watched a film. He went to sleep elsewhere, alone. I was cheerful and friendly today and said I liked spending time with him last night. I made sure to thank and praise and compliment him often. I think he likes me doing it. He's certainly been kinder and he accepted a hug from me today. I don't think that was pursuing - I didn't have expectations - I just wanted to thank him for a big job he'd done on the house and show him I was happy about it.

But tonight he's off on his own again.

I have all kinds of thoughts - none of which are helpful. I feel like I am entitled to love and affection and attention and respect because I am his wife. But I don't want it because I am 'entitled' to it. I don't want him to act out of duty. I want him to act out of love. And if he was feeling like doing those things, he probably would. So he's obviously not. And here am I, being an utter mug in showering him with praise and affection. Which he seems to like, but isn't that interested in returning.

I am down and angry tonight. Keeping it to myself though, not pursuing, not instigating any R-talk.

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Originally Posted By: SpinningJenny
Just some journalling and random thoughts. Though I could really do with a response if anyone is still reading...

So - DH has been a little warmer to me today. Last night he came up and laid in bed with me for a while and watched a film. He went to sleep elsewhere, alone. I was cheerful and friendly today and said I liked spending time with him last night. I made sure to thank and praise and compliment him often. I think he likes me doing it. He's certainly been kinder and he accepted a hug from me today. I don't think that was pursuing - I didn't have expectations - I just wanted to thank him for a big job he'd done on the house and show him I was happy about it.


Nothing is going to change overnight. This all sounds like great progress.

But when was the last time he did either of the things in bold?

Try not to get impatient!

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Thank you! I am feeling emotional and pissed off and I am probably just tired. I know I'm feeling lonely, and missing sex, and missing feeling wanted. So all of that is factoring in. It's better typing it here than bringing it to DH.

It's been a good few weeks since we've watched a film together - and last night was at his suggestion, and I can't remember the last time that happened.

I guess I am finding it hard to see it as progress tonight. Mainly I'm angry that he can give so little that those little crumbs feel like a big change.

But I will probably feel better tomorrow.

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Originally Posted By: SpinningJenny
Thank you! I am feeling emotional and pissed off and I am probably just tired. I know I'm feeling lonely, and missing sex, and missing feeling wanted. So all of that is factoring in. It's better typing it here than bringing it to DH.

It's been a good few weeks since we've watched a film together - and last night was at his suggestion, and I can't remember the last time that happened.

I guess I am finding it hard to see it as progress tonight. Mainly I'm angry that he can give so little that those little crumbs feel like a big change.

But I will probably feel better tomorrow.


Day by day, you probably wont see a big change. Like watching grass grow, you cant really see it happening. But looking back over a month or two you might be able to.

So dont get frustrated, just be patient and see what happens.

Its hard, but you can do it!

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Thanks, pal. I really appreciate that.

I keep thinking what I need to stay on in this relationship - or how will I know when I've had enough and it is time to go? I know he's a good man, but he hasn't let me reach him in years. I am not sure how long to wait.

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SJ -
There was a guy on here for several months named Huddy and it seems his situation was kinda similar to yours. He kinda "gave up" last week. He never laid out goals, got frustrated at seeing no progress and left. I really recommend that you lay out personal goals AND lay out what kinds of progress you want to see. Your marriage isn't going to be perfect by the end of this month (likely) so what would be the first signs of progress? A hug? A text? A smile? Calling you a certain name? I dot know but you do.

Get it out there. Otherwise, I fear you will get too frustrated!

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Do you mean goals for me, or goals for him? I feel pretty happy with how things are with my work, kids and hobbies. There's always room for improvement, of course. I am listening.

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Originally Posted By: SpinningJenny
Do you mean goals for me, or goals for him? I feel pretty happy with how things are with my work, kids and hobbies. There's always room for improvement, of course. I am listening.


I mean goals for you. You can't really set goals for things that you have no control over. So what kinds of things will you do in order to instill change into your R?

AND what kinds of signs will you look for to know if it's working? What kinds of reactions will you look for to know if you are making "progress"?

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Got it.

Goals for me:

be warm, kind and cheerful
show appreciation verbally
no pursuing for physical affection or time spent together
cheerful and accepting if he initiates affection or time spent together

How will I know it is working:

he asks to spend time with me
he asks me questions about my day or how I am feeling
he initiates physical affection or sex
he spends evenings in the same room as me two or three times in a week

How does that sound?

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I suppose what I want is to know for sure that he wants me, and isn't just here because of the kids, or because I'm the wage-earner right now.

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SJ, has the book arrived yet? Chapter 3, Page 80 is where you should go if it has.

What you've written above is a step in the right direction in that you are focussing on you and what results you are looking for, although they need to be measureable and have some timing associated with them.


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Originally Posted By: SpinningJenny
...I suppose what I want is to know for sure that he wants me...

We all want that in our sitch's too. When you've figured it out please can you let us all know so we can apply the same wisdom. :-)

Azzork mentioned "Huddy" above, I really recommend you tracking his threads down and taking a read as there are parallels with you and I'd hate things to end up in the same place for you. There is a big difference though in that you are definitely listening more to what you are being encouraged to do. Azzork is awesome, I've learnt so much from him.


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Okay. I will reread chap three, find Huddy's posts and read those, and check in tomorrow.

Thank you so much. I really appreciate both the advice and the company.

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Quote:
We all want that in our sitch's too. When you've figured it out please can you let us all know so we can apply the same wisdom. :-)


The thing I'm learning most of all about being here is that it could be much, much worse. Honestly - I have no idea how some of you guys are coping.

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Originally Posted By: SJ

Goals for me:

be warm, kind and cheerful
show appreciation verbally
no pursuing for physical affection or time spent together
cheerful and accepting if he initiates affection or time spent together

As B said, this is a good framework. But how will you know if you succeeded. What will you look for on Sept 30 to know if you accomplished these? What actual behaviors will you DO?

Originally Posted By: SJ

How will I know it is working:

he asks to spend time with me
he asks me questions about my day or how I am feeling
he initiates physical affection or sex
he spends evenings in the same room as me two or three times in a week

How does that sound?

For a start these are ok too. But I think they may be a couple steps ahead of where you are now. If I told you that you would R, what would be the FIRST few things you'd look for?

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Also, Huddy has about 12 threads. But the last couple had several folks trying to help him set goals and look for progress. There may be some ideas in there!

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Good point, thank you for the more crafted guidance Azzork.


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Quote:
As B said, this is a good framework. But how will you know if you succeeded. What will you look for on Sept 30 to know if you accomplished these? What actual behaviors will you DO?


I'm not sure I understand. I think these goals are specific, actual behaviours - about giving complements and appreciation, about keeping a cheerful disposition, etc. I guess I will know if I have done them, because I'll have done them. I'm sorry, there's obviously something I'm missing.

But yes, I take your point about the other list being too far ahead of where I am now. I need to think about that more. I stayed up and read Huddy's posts last night and I plan to re-read chap 3 of DB tonight so I hope that will help. I will give it more thought - and I am really grateful for your suggestions, and for your pushing me - I'm not trying to be obstructive. I just don't think I've fully got hold of the concept yet. But I will. Give me time. smile

As for today.

Well, I achieved all my goals. I was happy and cheerful and appreciated the work DH is doing around the house. He really is working hard - there are a few cosmetic maintenance type things that need sorting out before the estate agent comes round next week, and he's been working really really hard on getting them done without help from me - I've been marking papers today. So I cooked him lunch (not usual for me) and said how much I appreciated him taking control of this aspect of the house sale prep and what a weight it was off my mind knowing he was in charge of it. He thanked me for the lunch but went into another room to eat it. I didn't follow him or comment on that - which is a change for me.

There have been some moves and changes on his part too. He told me today he was worried about the house sale, and he thought it had been affecting him. I said I could understand why he was stressed. (Inwardly - it just seems like one more excuse to me - we've only been talking about selling the house for six months, and his cold behaviours towards me are not new). He cooked our evening meal and I went into the kitchen afterwards to clean up and wash up.

After that, he asked me to come back into the kitchen. He stood over me and pointed out some food caught in the drainer of the sink. He wasn't shouting or aggressive, but he was cold, critical and treating me like a child. I said I'd try to remember better next time and walked away. He followed me and kept on saying, 'will you remember, will you remember?'. I said, 'I believe I've already answered that question,' and left the room.

I'm not sure if that was good or not. I've been working really hard on figuring out how he needs me to show respect to him. I think the appreciation has made a difference to him. It is early days, of course. But I also can't be disrespected like that in front of my children - talked to like I'm stupid, or like a kid. I can't get into conversations where I'm being brow-beaten and berated - it doesn't scare me but it does upset me and it is a behaviour that disgusts me, and which damages my esteem for him.

It is almost as if he thinks that my respecting him would look the same way as the kind of respect we require our children to show to him. I really don't feel like he sees me as a partner. I've come up to my room to read. He's downstairs with his headphones on again. I'm not hiding. Tonight I actively don't want to be around him. This is the new normal for us.

Right. I am off to read. Tomorrow I have GAL with the kids planned during the day and GAL with a friend (female) in the evening. I have no idea what he has planned and I haven't asked him so he can feel free to do what he likes.

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Quote:
For a start these are ok too. But I think they may be a couple steps ahead of where you are now. If I told you that you would R, what would be the FIRST few things you'd look for


The very first things?

Being spoken to with politeness and respect, and some warmth.
Being asked questions about my day, my work, etc.
Him volunteering information about his day, etc.


This feels like a science experiment in some ways. Stepping right back from him, not pursuing him at all - and watching to see how he responds to small changes in my behaviour. I don't feel like I'm manipulating him - I am only doing things that I want to do, with no real expectation of any change on his part - but I do feel like I'm getting more information.

I'm finding that if I don't initiate conversation, we can spend the entire day in the whole house, in separate rooms, in silence.
I'm finding that if I don't initiate physical contact - arm touches, rubs, hugs, etc - then there isn't any - at all.
I see that he appreciates me complimenting his work.


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SJ,

H pointing out the food thing seems a bit strange. This is the second time he has done something like this. Just curious, does he often show compulsive behavior.

Many times when a person has compulsive tendencies and they are not aware of it they become rude or demeaning. Sometimes they become upset because they feel you are intentionally being careless. This can be misinterpreted as controlling or just being an a-hole all the time.

I know this because I have compulsive tendencies myself. Can you think of other things that seem minor yet he gets angry or irritated about it.


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You are making great progress SJ, some of the things you did today are right on the mark.

I'd hate to think you are being pushed by us, more firmly but gently guided in the right direction. :-)

When you've read the chapter about goal setting you may understand more of what we are saying so let's wait to see how you see them when you've had time to reflect on the MWD text.

Your husband trying to control you in that way is not acceptable and I think you need to set some boundaries for him, one being not to talk to you like that at any time let alone in front of the children. Boundary setting is not covered in any depth in the DR book (someone correct me if I am wrong) but there is plenty on the net about it. You did however deal with the situation well today, the next step is to stop it happening again and being confident about what to do if it does and that's where boundaries come in.

Just curious...you said you were marking papers, what subject do you teach and what level?


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I just thought of an example. For some reason my WW would always decide to wash the sheets and then forget to put them in the dryer. When we went to bed at night she would say "oh no, I forgot to dry the sheets." Honestly this happened about 20 times. That is not an exaggeration. I would get irritated almost every time. I eventually became rude and demeaning about it.

WW was not intentionally trying to irritate me or be careless. It was just one of those things that she did. She had a lot on her plate and drying the sheets on time seemed minor compared to the other things she had to do.

Last edited by WhyUs; 09/11/15 07:35 PM.

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Beagley,

I agree that boundaries need to be set and that he should not speak to her in that way. However, I feel it is important to understand why he is acting that way. This will allow Jenny to approach the matter in a way that will be successful. H may be very sensitive to the wrong approach which could backfire.

Just a thought.


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Originally Posted By: SpinningJenny
Quote:
As B said, this is a good framework. But how will you know if you succeeded. What will you look for on Sept 30 to know if you accomplished these? What actual behaviors will you DO?


I'm not sure I understand. I think these goals are specific, actual behaviours - about giving complements and appreciation, about keeping a cheerful disposition, etc. I guess I will know if I have done them, because I'll have done them. I'm sorry, there's obviously something I'm missing.


Your goals:

be warm, kind and cheerful - what are you going to do exactly - smile? greetings? eye contact? try to be as specific as you can.
show appreciation verbally - add a measurable. Once a day as a target?
no pursuing for physical affection or time spent together - good. Can you try to be a little more clear on this about how? I found for a while that I was pursuing without really knowing or being aware. What things will you not say?
cheerful and accepting if he initiates affection or time spent together - OK.

Just try to be as clear as you can. Goals should be SMART:
Specific
Measurable
Attainable
Relevant
Time-based

You want to be sure that you can measure if they were or were not achieved. How do you measure if you "were warm" to him for the month? Is that giving a smile when you pass him? saying good morning? walking around naked? I dont know - so be specific!

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Quote:
H pointing out the food thing seems a bit strange. This is the second time he has done something like this. Just curious, does he often show compulsive behavior.

Many times when a person has compulsive tendencies and they are not aware of it they become rude or demeaning. Sometimes they become upset because they feel you are intentionally being careless. This can be misinterpreted as controlling or just being an a-hole all the time.


It is kind of normal for him. He gets annoyed and upset (by which I mean he grumbles and complains and then sulks and withdraws - he's very rarely explosive in his anger and I never feel in danger from him) by a variety of minor things - shoes being left untidy at the door, if I use a fresh mug for tea and don't wash and re-use the old one, if I don't get all the hair out of the bathroom plughole.

I do genuinely forget some of his preferences - he likes one of the downstairs doors left open at night, the other open - so the cats can move about the house but not get into the kitchen. He's probably told me a hundred times. And I still genuinely forget - but he seems to believe that I do it on purpose.

I think because a lot of his work is domestic and to do with the house he's clearly going to care more about it - or notice it more - than I would. I also think he believes that these minor domestic mistakes are acts of disrespect on my part. For me - well, I do try, but I am a human being and I resent being on edge and having to walk on eggshells in my own house. There's not much consultation either - his way of doing things is the only right way and because the silent treatment is pretty painful for me, it is often easy to just stick to the 'rules'.

Quote:
Your husband trying to control you in that way is not acceptable and I think you need to set some boundaries for him, one being not to talk to you like that at any time let alone in front of the children. Boundary setting is not covered in any depth in the DR book (someone correct me if I am wrong) but there is plenty on the net about it. You did however deal with the situation well today, the next step is to stop it happening again and being confident about what to do if it does and that's where boundaries come in.


I've read a fair bit about boundaries and from what I understand - boundaries are in place to control me and not him. I can't stop him doing or saying anything. But I've thought a lot about my own personal boundaries. I have some 'rules' for myself.

I don't let people shout at me, call me names or otherwise verbally abuse me.
I don't allow people to talk to me sarcastically.

If these things happen, I end the conversation - leaving the room or the house if it comes to that.

I don't join in with passive aggressive games.
I don't allow myself to verbally abuse other people.

If I need cooling down time, or time alone, I take it - but I tell the other person what is happening so they don't feel walked out on or abandoned. I return to the conversation when I am able to act like an adult.

I ask for what I want clearly and calmly and I accept no for an answer gracefully.

This is what I have so far - they came from the work I did in IC last year and in my recovery from PTSD. They've served me well so far but can always be added to.

I teach English Language at graduate level.

Anyway - thanks for this. LOADS of food for thought. smile

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Originally Posted By: SpinningJenny
Quote:
For a start these are ok too. But I think they may be a couple steps ahead of where you are now. If I told you that you would R, what would be the FIRST few things you'd look for


The very first things?

Being spoken to with politeness and respect, and some warmth.
Being asked questions about my day, my work, etc.
Him volunteering information about his day, etc.


This feels like a science experiment in some ways. Stepping right back from him, not pursuing him at all - and watching to see how he responds to small changes in my behaviour. I don't feel like I'm manipulating him - I am only doing things that I want to do, with no real expectation of any change on his part - but I do feel like I'm getting more information.


If you think those are the very first things, then thats great. Im not sure where you are in your relationship. I might add something like sharing a laugh about something, having him smile at you, offering to do anything together....Im not sure.

It really IS a science experiment! And when you think of it in those logical terms, it starts to click. If you can take your emotions out of it for a little while, and think of it like an experiment, you can figure out what actually works. Thats how scientists operate! Thats not manipulating...thats learning.

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I've just had another thought.

I know I have allowed myself to be controlled by his silence and withdrawing. It is hugely painful and upsetting to me when he walks through a room without speaking to me, refuses to make eye-contact for days at a time, when he sleeps elsewhere for long periods. He knows full well how it makes me feel because I have cried, begged, pleaded, threatened, etc.

I am better in this area - though I still catch myself doing or not doing things so he won't start ignoring me.

I need to think more about a boundary for myself in this area. To try to be less dependent on his affection and jumping through hoops to get it. I want to show him the respect he deserves - I want to be warm and kind and friendly. But I can't go back to being some kind of performing pet constantly apologising for my own shadow just so he'll deign to share a bed with me.

I can't force him to treat me like an adult, but I can certainly make myself act like one.

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Originally Posted By: SpinningJenny
I do genuinely forget some of his preferences - he likes one of the downstairs doors left open at night, the other open - so the cats can move about the house but not get into the kitchen. He's probably told me a hundred times. And I still genuinely forget - but he seems to believe that I do it on purpose.


Is there maybe a nice way that you can help remind yourself? Maybe some sticky notes on cute paper or something taped up in certain places. That way he can see that you are listening and taking him seriously?

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Yes. I can totally do that. In fact, I am going to put a reminder on my phone right now of things to check before bed. It gets on my nerves when he nags me about it - but if the phone is nagging me I can be pissed off at the phone and not him!!

Quote:
be warm, kind and cheerful - what are you going to do exactly - smile? greetings? eye contact? try to be as specific as you can.
show appreciation verbally - add a measurable. Once a day as a target?
no pursuing for physical affection or time spent together - good. Can you try to be a little more clear on this about how? I found for a while that I was pursuing without really knowing or being aware. What things will you not say?
cheerful and accepting if he initiates affection or time spent together - OK.


Okay. This makes sense to me. So - more specific goals.

I will say good morning, ask him if he slept well. I will greet him when coming into the house and say goodbye when I am leaving. I will ask him if there's things he needs when I go out. I'll smile and make eye contact while these things happen.

I will appreciate something he does for me and our family two times per day (very easy thing for me to do - because he does a lot. I do generally thank him for cooking, etc, but I could do it more lavishly. Instead of 'thanks for tea,' I can say, 'I really appreciate you cooking for us all especially after you've been on your feet painting the house all day.' That kind of thing.

Not pursuing. Well - I was in the habit of saying, 'what are your plans for today?' or 'what do you want to do tonight?' which he knew full well was a coded way of me saying, 'please spend time with me. Please tell me you want to do something with me tonight.' So I have stopped doing that entirely. I will not initiate conversations with him if he's wearing his headphones or playing his computer games. I will not interrupt him when he's playing his guitar. I won't ask him to do things for me that I can really easily to myself (like petrol in the car. I don't need him to put petrol in my car - I just wanted him to do something nice to take care of me.)

I think I am getting the hang of this...

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SJ,

Ok. Your husband definitely has compulsive issues if you ask me. I have been your husband. Listening to you talk about it is enlightening to me. I can pretty much guarantee your husband thinks you are trying to be disrespectful or just do not care enough about him. However, I am not sure the way to handle it is meeting his every demand. (Maybe it is to get him back to the table, I'm not sure.)

I am not sure what would have made the light bulb go off for me. I was talking to the psychologist after BD before I realized I had compulsive tendencies. Only now, after reading your sitch am I beginning to understand the real impact of my behavior. I am learning as I am typing.

I wonder if there are books out there addressing this issue. I would imagine it is a fairly common issue in marriages that an LMFT would have suggestions for--don't think your husband is up for that though.

I am going to try doing some more thinking about it. I sure wish I could talk to my WW and let her know I am figuring things out.


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Yeah - I feel like I have a choice, sometimes, between obeying his every whim, being a good little girl, and getting a pat on the head, or by being an adult, and being presented with the silent treatment.

Now of course - lots of the things he asks for are totally reasonable, and I need to do better in remembering them.

But some of them are just preferences - how he likes the tea-towels hung - and to me it seems to feed into a really bad dynamic to obey these kind of preferences as if they were 'rules' just so I can get some measly drops of attention from him.

I don't doubt he feels if only I properly loved him I'd never ever forget to put the chain on the front door ever again. But I don't think he knows that when he treats me like I child, I can't feel comfy in acting like a wife to him.

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Jenny,

I am literally laughing. Eureka!

Two things my WW said at the end, after the A started of course.
1) I feel like I am always walking on eggshells
2) I feel like you are my dad and I am your daughter and have to follow your rules.

It is just crazy to hear a woman's perspective that is going through what my WW was apparently going through. Of course, this was not the only issue in our marriage, but is was one that I am sure led to where we are today.

I really hope I can offer help that will fix this. One day he is going to realize what he did to contribute to the breakdown of his marriage and be very sad. I would imagine the first step will be him recognizing he has a problem. The approach to make this happen is going to be very delicate I would imagine.

You are doing great! Thank you for not giving up!


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Originally Posted By: WhyUs

I really hope I can offer help that will fix this. One day he is going to realize what he did to contribute to the breakdown of his marriage and be very sad. I would imagine the first step will be him recognizing he has a problem. The approach to make this happen is going to be very delicate I would imagine.

You are doing great! Thank you for not giving up!


Thank you!

Do you have any specific ideas? I guess I need some respectful, warm, friendly phrases that will call him on his BS... wink

He's going to withdraw and give me the silent treatment, or he isn't - that is totally up to him, so avoiding that isn't my aim.

My aim is to even out the power balance in our relationship by stepping up and acting like an adult.

The next time he moans and wants to have a discussion (i.e he scolds me) for hanging the tea-towels a different way from the one he likes:

'Adults don't tell other adults how to hang towels.'

'I can see we have different preferences on this.'

Would these be okay things to say? I am totally stumped. It seems like such a minor thing to think about - given the state of our marriage - but to be honest, some days the only time he speaks to me is to complain about the way I've done or not done some domestic chore. The rules changes a lot, and he's unilateral about them, so it's really really impossible to avoid triggering this kind of behaviour just by behaving myself.

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Do not say "Adults don't tell other adults how to hang towels." That may come off as being rude.

The second approach is much better. "I can see we have different preferences on this."

Are there ever times when you feel like you can talk to him. Are there times when he just seems happy, relaxed, and willing to be open with you. Maybe this would be a time to bring up the OCD stuff. I would not harp on it though. You don't want to switch his good mood when you rarely see it.

Honestly, I think a professional would be more suited to address this issue. I think it is out of my league. Have you thought about going to an IC on your own to discuss this issue.

I think I can give you my perspective on how I felt about things but figuring out how to fix him may be tough. I would hate to trouble shoot your marriage when a professional may know what to do right away.

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Hi WhyUs

at the moment - no, there aren't times I feel I can talk to him. We have brief, polite conversations about the kids or practical things - or he criticises something I've done or not done. That is about it.

BUT I think this is an issue for further on down the road - and if he does have compulsive problems, they are his to deal with (and I will support him if I can). Generally, I know he doesn't think he has 'preferences' - that some things aren't really a matter of right or wrong, but just individual likes and dislikes. He's said before it isn't a matter of perspective, it is a case of him being right and me being wrong. Down that road madness lies. He can think he's right if he wants to, and sulk about it if I disagree - that is okay with me for the time being.

I think the thing for now, is to work on the goals I set out.

I think he's noticing something's up. A couple of times today he's asked me if there is a problem, or if I am displeased with something. I am CERTAIN that my attitude is okay - I've been warm and friendly and appreciative. But I'm also making sure I don't pursue him at all. I believe he's more used to me making bids for his attention and I am just not doing that. He can come to me if he wants to, and if he doesn't, well, I can see how I feel and make that decision later.

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It could be that as you are changing he perceives that he's losing control over you so is stepping up the stroppy behaviour in an attempt to get you back in line.

Working on your goals may well stir him up further so be prepared but continue with them anyway, they are the way forward for you.

Asking him not to speak to you in that way when it happens (using a calm and controlled tone, softly spoken), and repeat again if required, stating that you'll not continue the conversation if he persists, then walking away if he does continue unabated seems fair and reasonable to me. It's simple cause and effect psychology nothing complex or something new as you're bound to have used it on your children at some point.

He may have some OCD like tendencies and there are many ways in which he can communicate these to you, his chosen method is seemingly now a habit and gentle but firm guidance from you along with your own self control will win in the long run.


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Thanks, Beagley.

I've been reflecting on this a lot today. I don't think I've enforced my boundary about being spoken to respectfully consistently with him, now I come to think about it. I know I have been really really driven to get him to behave affectionately towards me and to spend time with me by doing all these little things, then getting resentful because the approach doesn't work in the way I want it to. Who knew you couldn't buy affection with washing up and making the bed smile That resentment has led to me getting pissy with him because of it. I think I am dropping the rope. Is that what you all call it?

I think I need to detach myself from this need I have to have his affection and attention. I don't know whether that is positive or not - whether that is the kind of loving detachment you're all talking about. But getting it from him can't be the motivation for my decisions. I have to be prepared to work on my goals even if it makes him sulk - and to enforce my boundaries even if it means I get the silent treatment. He'll do what he wants to do anyway.

I have to think about time limits too. I know this won't be fixed in a month - I know it won't. I know once he starts communicating with me, we're only at the very very start and as soon as he starts telling me what his needs are, I will have a whole lot more work to do. But none of my needs are being met at the moment and haven't been for a long time. My respect and affection for him is dying. I'm not willing to be unhappy for years on end.

We're calling the estate agent on monday. Who knows how long it will take our house to sell? I know right now I am not willing to sign up for another, bigger mortgage with him, nor am I willing to support him financially through another training course - not until I know he's committed to making this relationship work, and not just having his cake and eating it. I feel quite sure about that. But these aren't decisions I need to take today - like I said, it could be months before we come to it.

So I guess my next step is to think more clearly about what I want from him. And how long I am prepared to wait.

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A lot of good stuff here SJ. I'm so glad you've continued posting.

As for time limits, think of it this way:

can you make it through TODAY?
Once the answer to that is 'no', it's time to go.

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I don't really have many problems making it through day to day. I get upset sometimes - and really angry sometimes - but most of the time when I'm at home I'm just low level sad and disappointed and resentful. I love my kids, my work, my hobbies - but home is like some dead, too-quiet place where some man who doesn't want to talk to me or touch me lives.

It isn't the day to day - it's the fear that I could turn around and realise I've wasted my best years living with and financially supporting a man who practically ignores me. I'm not willing to let that happen.

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Originally Posted By: SpinningJenny
...it's the fear that I could turn around and realise I've wasted my best years living with and financially supporting a man who practically ignores me. I'm not willing to let that happen.

That's a tough one and probably only something an IC can help you effectively with.

Could it be that this has been sitting under your R for a long time and is a significant key to finding out to what the future holds for you? Leaving it unaddressed will give it the potential to fester (further).


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Yes - I think it has been sitting there for a really long time.

I know that I've never really felt he's 'chosen' me. I pursued him. I asked him to come live with me, I suggested marriage and planned the wedding. I believe he's been happy to be a husband and a father, but I don't know if any of those things would have happened if I hadn't pushed for them. He's a laid back kind of guy. Rarely shows enthusiasm or ambition for anything - never ever ever for having or keeping me.

If I drop the rope, I don't think he's going to pick it up. I think it would be out of character for him, I think he'd be afraid of my reaction if he did pursue me, and I think at some deep level he doesn't know what to do.

I also think I need to do work on myself in this area. Right now I am not entirely sure what it would take for me to feel 'chosen.' Not a grand gesture, not sex, not a friendly word or two. I need some sign of his love and commitment and I don't know what would be acceptable to me. That isn't fair on him - to set him the impossible task of resolving a bottomless pit of insecurity.


Last edited by SpinningJenny; 09/12/15 03:26 PM.
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Jenny,

I think you are on the right track. It is hard for me to really say what should happen first. I think your intuition will help a lot in this regard. My situation is different as I was the bread winner and my WW and I owned a business together as well. We argued a lot over how to run the business. I think each case has its own uniqueness sprinkled with some generalities, if that even makes sense.

I know that I was also the more affectionate person in my relationship so that is part is much different.


Me: 30's W: 30's M: 12yrs
EA: Started 3/2015
MC Started: 4/2015
She moved out and served 6/2015
PA: Confirmed 10/5/2015
2 young kids

"If you do not stand for something you will fall for anything."
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Thanks, WhyUs. I need to think some more. But not tonight. Tonight is GAL night with my gal-friend, where we will be silly and talk about anything other than difficult men. smile

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Time to start a new thread, SJ!

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Crikey, already? Will do.

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