My apologies for this being so long. But I need to provide the details around different events that have gotten my wife and myself to the place where we are at. Back in July 2011, my wife and I were having some communication issues and some intimacy issues. Making love was pretty much non-existent (about 5 times/year; The last time we made love was Oct 2011). In terms of communication, we still talked and laughed, but we no longer confided in one another in terms of our hopes, dreams, fears, etc..We talked about, and both agreed to go to counseling. However, we never made it. On July 17th 2011, my stepdaughter's (wife's daughter) husband left her. My wife and I put our relationship on hold to tend to her. She was devastated and we helped her to put the pieces back together. Right after that, my wife's father became sick. He was 88 at the time and had aortic valve replacement surgery. He was never the same after the surgery. As a result, my wife's mother (age 87) decided she no longer wanted to live. From Oct 2011-Feb 2013, my wife, her sister, and myself took care of their parents as they needed 24 hour care. Her mom passed in Aug 2012 and her dad passed in Feb 2013. It was a very trying time for all involved. In Sept 2012, I had been emailed by my ex fiance from 20 years ago. We emailed several times and it became more consistent as time passed. After my father-in-law passed away, I became more involved with her in terms of spending time and seeing her. I had an affair that started in March 2013. In May 2013, my wife found out that I was seeing her (I lied about being intimate with her). My wife said I needed to stop seeing her and we needed to get to counseling. I agreed, and in June we started counseling. However, approx 2 weeks after we started counseling, I began to communicate and see the OW again. I continued to go to counseling with my wife, but lied about seeing the OW. On July 27th 2013, I told my wife the truth about still seeing the OW and that I did have an affair. I asked for her forgivness (and have continued to do so). I entered counseling of my own and continue with this as well. My wife and I had some dialogue and she eventually asked me to move out. I moved out on Aug 7th. At that time, my wife said she still loved me and needed time and space. I did not want to move out, but I did. On Sept 7th, my wife told me she wanted a divorce. That she would never be able to trust me again and she needed to move on without me. She also said she no longer loved me. I did the begging and pleading, but to no avail. As days passed, she did not bring up the divorce. I felt hopeful, but scared to bring it up myself. On Oct 19th, she told me she had retained an atty and was in the process of completing the paperwork to file for divorce. That she had not changed her mind. That she would always care for me, but she did not love me. She told me she was the victim in this and that it was my fault (and I agreed with her). I asked if she would consider counseling with me again...that I would remain moved out while we went, but she said no. Not sure what to do now. Through my own therpay I have realized the pain I have caused. I have broke her heart. I had my own issues to work through from the pain I had from seeing her mom & dad pass (I loved them like they were my own parents). I realize there is no excuse for the affair and I have done nothing to deflect blame from me and I have done nothing to place blame on her. I own my choices and the hurt it has caused her and our families. We have been married 16 years and together 18 years. My wife is 12 years older than me. She in her mid 50's and I'm in my early 40's. I love my wife and my prayer is to reconcile. But I'm not sure what to do at this point. It feels helpless...like all I can do is sit back and wait for her to file.
Allow her to make her decisions. If you are no longer involved in the affair (ie you have told OW you no longer want to see or communicate w her because you love your wife and want to reconcile = burn the bridge between you and OW) and you acknowledge your contribution to the deterioration of the relationship and you are willing to wait patiently (average 4-7 years) for your wife to heal from your betrayal then simple tell your wife that you respect her decision to divorce you but you strongly believe that you can work things out. Say this every now an then and leave it at that.
Again, allow her to make her decisions.
Take care.
M 42 H 39 T10 (-2yrs separation) S8 D5 DD 7/30/11 (EA&PA) Reconciled 6/2013 Separation in works 1/2017
So what assurances does she have that you have changed? I mean you promised her before and she took you at your word while you still fooled around on her.
Be honest here.
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
Yes, the affair with the OW has ended. Back in September when wife first stated she wanted the divorce, I had a huge meltdown. After a couple days, I contacted OW and we talked. Told her how much I loved W and that I had to end contact with her (OW). OW understood and wished me the best. W has no assurances right now. In her mind, she doesn't feel she can believe what I say or that she can trust me (and I completely understand this). She is aware I am still in my own IC. I have communicated to W that affair has ended. I was over at the house on Saturday and she did not hand me the divorce papers or say anything about it. Trying not to be too hopeful.
Thanks. I'm trying to be transparent. There is hardly any contact at all between us. We work in the same office about 20 feet away from each other. But she does not speak to me all day. We do walk out together each night as we share a parking pass for the garage at work. but, again, conversation is pretty non-existent. It usually goes something like me asking her how her day was and her giving 1 or 2 word answers. I'll tell her to have a goodnight when we leave the garage...she'll usually just say "you too". She does not call me at all outside of work. She'll usually let me come over to the house on the weekend for a couple of hours to spend time with our 2 cats. That's it. Not sure if there is anything else I should be doing...trying to give her the time and space she asked for, while praying I'll have the strength to handle the situation with grace once she serves me with the divorce papers.
Yes, still around. Under moderation and my last post from last week has not showed yet. Nothing new to report. Wife still has not given me the papers and I have not asked. I'm trying to work on myself and be strong, esp in front of her. I started going back to church a couple weeks back, which has helped too. It has been hard since the people at the church have asked questions about where the W is. these are people we have known for a long time, so it is difficult to say the words that W and I are separated and then see their reactions, like they can't believe it.
I'm still around. I have posted 2 posts...one from last Thurs or Friday that is still not showing; Another one from a few days ago. I understand the moderation needs, but over a week for a post to be showing can defeat the purpose for people who are looking for guidance and feel they need it as soon as possible.
Well, I hate to say it but your wife is doing the right thing. She set a boundary (stop seeing the OW) and you crossed it. You have to accept the consequences.
I think you need to be very open with your W that you understand she will have a very hard time trusting you and that right now you don't even expect any trust, just the chance for forgiveness if you work hard enough to deserve it.
Taking additional steps to give her access to your email accounts, passwords, tracking software on the computer, GPS tracking on your phone, etc are very strong indications that you are ready to come clean for good and that you don't want any more secrets from her.
me-35 WAS-37 T-16 1/2 Son-14 (HF Aspergers) BD,ILYBINILWY,"I met my soulmate": Oct5,2013 "Letting go because I love him, holding on because I love him."
Thanks tigerlily...I understand the consequences of my actions. It took me way too long to see it. And I agree that she is dealing with it as she feels she needs to for her.
I wish W had continued with her individual counseling, but I can't do anything about that. But it worries me she will not deal with the situation effectively, even if she files for divorce.
I have been as open as I can be with her. She does not call me at all...we see each other at work for only about 5 minutes, so conversation is limited. Outside of work, I do go over to the house for about an hour or 2 on the weekend to see the cats. W and I have conversation, but it is usually about the cats or small menial items.
Have sincerely asked for forgiveness several times over the past 3 months since she asked me to move out. No response each time.
I left my computer at the house when I moved out...she has the passwords for emails, etc...I'm not sure what more I can do while living apart to be transparent. She never asks about OW or about what I am doing, and hasn't since the end of August.
I'm going to be brutally honest here, so please keep that in mind.
"I wish W had continued with her individual counseling,"
Why? She wasn't the one with the problem.
"But it worries me she will not deal with the situation effectively, even if she files for divorce."
Why does it worry you? You didn't care about it when you were having your A. These are the consequences.
"I have been as open as I can be with her."
You said that before and then you betrayed her again.
"She does not call me at all...we see each other at work for only about 5 minutes, so conversation is limited. Outside of work, I do go over to the house for about an hour or 2 on the weekend to see the cats. W and I have conversation, but it is usually about the cats or small menial items."
Understandable.
"Have sincerely asked for forgiveness several times over the past 3 months since she asked me to move out. No response each time."
You did that the last time and you cheated on her again. Fool me once...
"I left my computer at the house when I moved out...she has the passwords for emails, etc."
This proves nothing. She knows you could always have a hidden email that she doesn't know about.
"I'm not sure what more I can do while living apart to be transparent. She never asks about OW or about what I am doing, and hasn't since the end of August."
Because she doesn't care. You've made her numb. She dropped her defenses the first time and opened up to you to trust you. You broke that trust again.
So being honest here, putting herself in your shoes, what reason does she have to go out with you? If you were her, why would she want to be with you? Write it down here.
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
In terms of the counseling, we had communication issues for a while along with lack of intimacy issues. Please don't take this as me using these as excuses...not at all, again, i own my decisions and their consequences. W is also a person who doesn't deal with emotional issues well...this has been a constant as long as I have known her (18 years). She doesn't face issues and likes to sweep them under the carpet. This is not a slam against her at all, so please don't take it like that. I'm just trying to establish why I wish she would continue with her IC. Whether it's me or a future relationship with someone else, IC can help her deal with the issues inside her...and deal with the hurt I have caused her.
I guess I'm not sure how to be transparent...what more can I do? With virtually no contact and no communication, how do I show that?
Honestly, if I were her, I would not want anything to do with me. All she has to go on is the prior 17 years together in terms of what I have to offer. Which is, understandably, not enough to trust me again.
"W is also a person who doesn't deal with emotional issues well."
And I'm sure your A helped her alot with her self-esteem.
"I'm just trying to establish why I wish she would continue with her IC."
Again, you cheated on a woman with insecurity and self-esteem issues. You don't get to decide what she needs any more.
"Whether it's me or a future relationship with someone else, IC can help her deal with the issues inside her...and deal with the hurt I have caused her."
Part of this is your own guilt talking. You didn't care for her before so you shouldn't care about her now.
"I guess I'm not sure how to be transparent...what more can I do?"
I'm not sure why you keep focusing on transparency. She doesn't care either way any more. She's done with you for now.
"With virtually no contact and no communication, how do I show that?"
Again, transparency has nothing to do with it. It has to deal with TRUST. That involves more than transparency.
"Honestly, if I were her, I would not want anything to do with me."
That's not what I asked. WHAT REASON would she want to stay with you? Think hard.
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
There is no reason...any reason I give that she would want to saty with me, your reply will be something to the effect of "you had the A, so you're obviously not that". And your reply would be accurate.
For instance, she always said I was her rock and the person she came to for security. So your reply will be something like "nice job, with the A, you are no longer that to her".
Another example would be integrity and honesty. This was always a huge reason for her to be with me. And your reply will be along the lines of "are you kidding me, you had an A and you think the reason W would want to stay with you is your integrity and honesty, she will more than likely never trust you again".
And, again, your replies would be warranted. So my answer would have to be that I can't think of any reason W would want to stay with me.
First of all, stop playing the martyr. You had the A and these are the consequences.
I'm not the one married to you. You don't have to worry about my replies. But if you can't think of a single good point as to why your W would want to stay with you, then WHY even bother trying to get her back?
If you don't know what good points you have to work and expand on, then you can't DB correctly.
So stop being the martyr and write down what good points you have from your POV.
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
No children of my own, but i was a good stepfather to W's daughter while she was growing up and into adulthood (she is 28yo now). when she went through her divorce a couple years ago, W and I helped her through.
W and I have 2 cats who are like our children and I am a good "parent" to them.
Love W's family very much and get along with all of them. They are wonderful people. I can laugh and cry with all of them.
As mentioned before, I loved her parents like they were my own. They were role models for me and always stood by my side. W always said she would never forget what i did for her parents the 2 1/2 yrs they were sick and how i was there for the family after her mom passed and then her dad.
W's family has a summer home & boathouse. I put a lot of blood, sweat, and tears into maintenance, etc. to keep the place in good shape.
I enjoyed the same interests as W. She would always laugh that I was the only guy she knew that would take her to the mall and not complain about being there for 6 hours.
I volunteer for several Special Olympic events throughout the year.
I volunteer for church functions and serve as a trustee.
I volunteer at our local zoo.
I have been mentoring my 15 year old nephew.
I'm active into running and exercising. goal is to run a marathon.
She called it...he was an alcoholic. they were married about 4 years. their daughter was 2 when W moved out and divorced him. W tried to stay with him, but he started becoming violent, so she left with her daughter and moved in with her parents.
Honestly I can now see that it is going to be extremely difficult to fix this right now. Not impossible but it's going to take awhile.
Her H broke her trust by drinking and getting violent. She tried to fix it but ultimately couldn't. I don't think you realize how important your relationship was to her. It probably took alot of strength and courage to open herself up to being loved again so the fact that you not only cheated on her once but twice is a tough sell.
I can only imagine all the emotional and psychological damage your W is going through right now.
I can now see why she doesn't want to contact you at all. She doesn't want to get hurt any more.
Right now begging and pleading your case isn't going to do any good because you betrayed her twice. How old is your step-D? Do you get a chance to talk to her? Did your W have any contact with her XH?
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
Thanks MrBond for all your insight. Right now, it feels impossible to me that the marriage can be saved or this can be "fixed" at all. I appreciate reading your email that it may not be impossible. I'll do whatever I can do and need to do and be as patient as I have to be (not my strong suit, but I'm working on it).
I didn't realize how much the relationship meant to her or how important it was to her. the last 2 and 1/2 years, I was self absorbed with anger and bitterness that I held inside and didn't deal with effectively.
Haven't begged and pleaded since the day she told me she wanted a divorce (which was 9/7). When she mentioned the divorce again on 10/19, we talked matter-of-factly and there was no begging. Still no word on the divorce from her since 10/19.
Step-D is 28. She will not talk to me anymore and hasn't since August. Since W told her about the A, step-d has said that I am no better than step-d's first husband (who left her for another woman 2 1/2 years ago after they were married for less than 2 years). Neither myself or W have had any contact with step-d's XH. We did talk to him for a few weeks after he first left, but he made it clear he no longer loved step-d and was moving on.
W only had contact with her XH while step-d was growing up. but it wasn't much contact at all. There were child support issues, visitation issues, etc...with XH. W always was reluctant to have any type of confrontation with him.
"I'll do whatever I can do and need to do and be as patient as I have to be (not my strong suit, but I'm working on it)."
This is your ego talking. You say you don't have the patience. Well I guess your family and relationship to your W and SD means anything to you.
"I didn't realize how much the relationship meant to her or how important it was to her. "
Seriously? You didn't think she cared that much about you MARRIAGE to her which is why you cheated on her? TWICE? You both went to counseling which is more than others get around here and you cheated again!. Get some b@lls and start taking responsibility for what you did. Stop blaming her.
And before you argue that you're not, go back and read your post. It's very telling. You were being selfish and still are.
This is where you are failing. It doesn't matter how much the relationship means to your W. It matters how much it means to you.
" She will not talk to me anymore and hasn't since August. Since W told her about the A, step-d has said that I am no better than step-d's first husband '
And how does that make you feel? Proud? Be honest here.
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
didn't say i don't have patience...i said it is not my strong suit, but i'm working on it. I don't think it's my ego talking at all. The relationship means enough to me to do whatever I can to save the marriage. If that means wait and do nothing, then I will wait. If it means to do something that I'm not seeing, something that someone such as yoruself points out, then I will do that.
my post was meant to convey that i didn't know how much the relationship meant to her in the past couple of years because of what we'd been through with her daughter and her parents. I had a lot of anger and bitterness which consumed me and, as i stated before, I was very selfish.
Prior to the last couple of years, there were issues between us which we both had discussed. The lack of communication and the lack of intimacy. We had discussed going to counseling way back then, but we didn't. However, even with those issues, I knew back then how much the relationship meant to her and how much it meant to me. But neither one of us knew what steps to take to "fix" it, so we both buried our heads in the sand. Once everything happened with her daughter and her parents, we both placed our relationship on the back burner. That's not blaming...that's fact. W would attest to that too.
The affair is 100% my fault. I have taken responsibility; not sure how, in your view, I haven't. I have never once pointed to anything about W to say "this is why I had the A"...and I wont't. The A is on me and always will be. At no time have I ever blamed W for me having the A.
I have re-read my post several times, I fail to see where I have pointed any blame at her. I also fail to see how I'm still being selfish. I'm here and I'm trying to save my marriage. I may not have all the "correct" answers and I may be failing at saying/doing certain things, but I'm trying to learn.
The relationship means the world to me. I don't want to lose W.
It makes me feel very sad that step-d feels this way. We had a wonderful relationship and W told me that once she told step-d about the A, that step-d would never forgive me and that relationship would end for good. That appears to be exactly what has happened. And yes, I'm well aware this is a consequence of my actions.
"The affair is 100% my fault. I have taken responsibility; not sure how, in your view, I haven't. "
Because before you even wrote this part you spent a whole paragraph discussing problems your W had or your "shared" problems. She might have had communication problems, but she didn't go after another person. And you did it TWICE. That's the telling part that you were and are the one with the problem.
Bottom line is that no matter how badly your M is going you don't find comfort in someone else's bed. AND because your W was betrayed by her XH, you did worse by betraying her twice.
I have no doubt that your M can be saved, but I'm not sure it's worth it. I mean, how does your W know that you aren't going to cheat on her again? How do YOU know that you're not going to cheat again?
You say that you've suddenly understood why you did the things you did, etc. But words don't mean anything. Actions do. And your actions showed that you couldn't keep your word. So what assurances does she have that you aren't going to do it again if she comes back?
That's what she's afraid of. Transparency means nothing for now because it's the fear of FUTURE hurt that she's afraid of.
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
In none of my posts have I once pointed the finger or blamed W. If you have taken my posts that way, then I have not conveyed how I feel correctly to you. In fact, it has been quite the opposite.
In addition, when I post, I am trying to give as much info and facts as I can. I do this so that anyone who replies to me will have as complete a picture as I can provide. By stating the issues in the M prior to the A, I am not placing blame, I'm simply trying to provide facts.
Also, the therapist W and I saw together and my own psychologist that I see in IC have both said the same thing: The affair is 100% my fault, but the issues in the marriage prior are 50%-50% between both W and myself. Did those issues give me the green light to have the A? Absolutely not. The A was my action only and not attributable to anything W did or did not do.
I never once said I suddenly understood the whys of my actions. I have been in IC for 6 months now, once a week, sometimes twice. It took me a good 3 months to figure out the whys with lots of "homework" done outside of the sessions.
I don't know what assurances W has that I won't cheat again. When she asked me to leave, I moved in with my parents (and remain there) so she would see that I'm not out to get my own "love nest" with the OW. She knows I continue my therapy. She is aware I have gone back to church. I joined here for people to assist who have been through the same situations.
I'm here because I don't know what to do or how to assure her. I'm here because I don't want the M to end and I don't want to lose W.
Same thing with W knowing I will not cheat on her again. I don't know how to assure her of that or what actions to take.
I know I won't cheat again because the OW was a significant part of my past. I know now and have discovered in the last few months that I was caught up in old feelings and looking to recreate a past that, at the time of the A, I felt I wanted based on MY poor view of the marriage. The A was about the memory of past, old feelings at a time when I thought (no blame, it's on me) M would not survive.
So while I'm glad to read your "I have no doubt that your M can be saved"...when it's followed up with "I'm not sure it's worth it", I really don't know what actions to take.
"I know now and have discovered in the last few months that I was caught up in old feelings and looking to recreate a past that, at the time of the A, I felt I wanted based on MY poor view of the marriage. "
That's all fine and well, but to be honest, you don't know if you're going to get caught up in those feelings again if your M goes south again.
While it is true that marriages can be saved after an A, it's the fact that she opened her heart to you again and then you broke that trust a second time that's the issue.
In what ways have you exhibited trust? Showing her phone records and emails don't mean anything because you can always have a secret phone and email somewhere else. Many cheaters on here do.
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
What do YOU suggest that JFred can do in order to demonstrate that his wife can trust him? All I see you doing is shooting down everything he says or even does. Has he screwed up? Yep -- he's admitted that. SHOULD his wife trust him again? Probably not, but he's trying to save his marriage and we HOPE she can find it in her heart to try.
Full transparency -- especially for us guys -- is NOT easy to agree to do. It's almost humiliating and emasculating (but yet it's fully necessary). I think our advice to ol' JFred here needs to be "keep doing what you're doing, but know that it's going to take a long while before she believes your changes are genuine."
" All I see you doing is shooting down everything he says or even does. "
Not really. What was written is what's going through his W's mind.
JFred, here are your biggest challenges.
1) Your W's XH cheated on her so already it took her alot of strength to give her heart to someone else. Those of us who deal with infidelity know how tough it is to trust someone again after being betrayed even once. As much as you try, you never feel like you can totally trust someone again. Your W was willing to try with you.
2) You cheated on her twice. She gave you a chance the first time and you broke that trust again. Double whammy.
3) Your SD just got a D. I don't know if it was because of infidelity, but either way, she was betrayed by her father and then her H and then by you. She's been betrayed by three men, so she won't be playing cheerleader in your corner and is probably telling your W that you can never be trusted.
Transparency alone isn't going to work in your case. People who cheat have shown to have hidden phones and email addresses, so showing that to your W now won't do any good.
The reason why I asked if there were a reason why your W would want to stay with you is to see if you could point out any good traits or actions that your W had responded positively to and possibly could again. If you can't think of any, then it's harder for us to find a starting point for you.
My suggestion would be to start with your SD. Have you apologized to her? Tell her that you're sorry for how badly you've hurt her and betrayed her trust. Tell her you love her and while you don't deserve her forgiveness, that you ask for it any way. Start off small with a comment here and there and then increase interactions.
Next, if there was something you were responsible for in your marriage that required trust, such as finances, continue to show that you can be trusted in those areas. Ask your W questions and keep her updated. Don't go overboard with the interactions but keep them business like. Then slowly turn them friendly.
You have to show your trustworthiness through actions and time.
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
3) Your SD just got a D. I don't know if it was because of infidelity, but either way, she was betrayed by her father and then her H and then by you. She's been betrayed by three men, so she won't be playing cheerleader in your corner and is probably telling your W that you can never be trusted.
Transparency alone isn't going to work in your case. People who cheat have shown to have hidden phones and email addresses, so showing that to your W now won't do any good.
The reason why I asked if there were a reason why your W would want to stay with you is to see if you could point out any good traits or actions that your W had responded positively to and possibly could again. If you can't think of any, then it's harder for us to find a starting point for you.
My suggestion would be to start with your SD. Have you apologized to her? Tell her that you're sorry for how badly you've hurt her and betrayed her trust. Tell her you love her and while you don't deserve her forgiveness, that you ask for it any way. Start off small with a comment here and there and then increase interactions.
Next, if there was something you were responsible for in your marriage that required trust, such as finances, continue to show that you can be trusted in those areas. Ask your W questions and keep her updated. Don't go overboard with the interactions but keep them business like. Then slowly turn them friendly.
You have to show your trustworthiness through actions and time.
This is excellent advice, and the SD angle is very insightful ^^^.
I attempted to call SD twice back in Aug and in Sept. Left message both times, no return phone calls. I sent her an email in late Sept. No reply. She told W about it and W asked me to please not contact SD again. I did send a b-day card to SD in Oct, but no reply from that either. So at this point, I'm not sure if I should send another email or try to contact SD again.
In terms of good traits, W always talked about how she loved my dependability and strength. That she could rely on me in tough situations. That she always new I would be there if she needed to lean on me. That I was her "rock".
I have asked W in terms of help with the finances. She has said no each time. SD sat down with W in Aug after I moved out and helped her in terms of what needed to be paid and when.
The only interaction we have is based on our 2 cats. One of them has been sick and we have had several vet appts that both W and I have gone to together. In actuality, the cats are 90% of what W and I talk about now. And if it wasn't for W allowing me to come over on the weekend for about an hour or 2 to see the cats, I would imagine W would not have me over at all.
By now you are aware mom wants a divorce and wants to move on from the marriage based on my actions. I take full responsibility for my horrible decisions and the hurt and pain I have caused your mom and you (as well as the rest of the family). There are no excuses for what I have done.
I have been blessed to have you in my life and I'll always love you as my own daughter.
Know that I do love your mom and my solemn, sincere prayer is for our reconciliation. I understand reconciliation is a process and not an event and in that regard, it will take time. I will pray for this and I will pray that one day, you can forgive me.
I can see why she didn't want to respond. You made it all about you in the email. This isn't about what YOU understand and what YOU want and what YOU will pray for. You have to make the emphasis on them.
By starting off by saying that her mom wants a D because of your actions is wrong. You should have just started out with the apology.
How old was your SD when you M'd?
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
The first 3 years we got along very well. We established a strong bond. She had never had a father figure in her life, and I believe she looked to me to fill that void.
The next 4 years were so-so. Things had changed with her dad (W's XH). He had become unreliable in terms of child support and visitation. He frequently gave W a very hard time over these matters. This strained the relationship between all of us. SD had overheard several conversations between W and XH...along with conversations between W and myself. The conversations were centered around XH's attitude and actions. This put SD on the defensive a lot. She felt like she had done something wrong.
After that 4 year period, SD went to college. Her and I gradually got back to a very good spot within a year or so. Our relationship continued to get better and really flourished in the last few years. We were getting along better than ever until this past Summer.
Thanksgiving was nice, albeit difficult and a little odd. First Thanksgiving that both of W's parents were gone. W's mom's b-day would have been on Thanksgiving day this year. And first Thanksgiving spent without W in 18 years. But many blessings to be thankful for and glad to have spent the day with my family.
I sent W a Thanksgiving card...not a mushy "wife" card, but just a "Thanksgiving Blessings" card. She worked from home on Wed and sent me an email (at work) that she had got it and thanked me for the card. She asked me to pick up some food and things for the cats and said I could come over Sunday after Church to see them and drop the items off. I went over on Sunday for about 2 hours. W and I talked mostly about the changes here at work and some things about the cats. No personal discussions about Thanksgiving or anything like that; and no mention of the D. I did notice W had the card I sent her displayed on the table with her other cards. Other than the email Wed and the visit on Sunday, no other contact from W.
Called SD on Wed and got voice mail. Left a message for her to have a Happy Thanksgiving.
That's a good interaction. Slowly increase the positive interactions and drop little hints about what you've been up to. Personal tidbits to help show that you trust her with your info.
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
Yesterday leaving work, W asked about where I had gotten our big desk calendars and small calendar refills last year...I told her where I got them. Last night, I was in the plaza where there is one of the stores that carries them, so I picked up a big one for W as well as a refill for her.
Told W this morning at work that I had picked them up for her since I was there. She thanked me and wanted to pay me for them (cost was approx $15), I just said it was no big deal. Made a "Merry Christmas" joke out of it and she (i think) smiled a little.
Also, yesterday, W emailed me and asked what I wanted to do regarding my AAA membership. She said I could get my own or she would renew me as an associate member under her's. I asked her what option she preferred and she said it didn't matter...she said she was fine keeping me under her's as an associate member for now and that it would be cheaper for me. Kinda surprised me that she didn't just tell me to get my own membership. She just asked for the money to renew it, which I gave to her today.
Quick update....W just sent me an email that says she really wants to pay me for the calendars and if i don't tell her how much, she will have to find out on her own.
i emailed her back that it was no big deal and it was around $13 and change.
not sure why she is being adament about paying it back. if she does, do i just accept it and not say anything further?
Just wanted to drop a note and wish everyone a Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays.
I know we all have our situations, and sometimes it seems hopeless or futile. Hang in there...may the Grace of God be with you all not just at this time of year, but everyday.
Thank you MrBond (and the others) who have commented on my situation and offered insight. May your holidays be blessed.
Met with W this past Sunday...she is still intent on D. Said that she didn't do anything with the D since it was holiday time, but that she has not and will not change her mind. She has the papers filled out and just needs to submit to attorney.
Christmas was tough as was New Year's. One phone call from her on Christmas morning, which lasted about 10mins. On Sunday, she said the only reason she called was because the week prior she told me she would and she didn't want to be a liar...so she called out of obligation on Christmas. No contact over New Years. Nothing from her family or from SD.
When I was over there on Sunday, I said I missed her and I loved her. Said that I respect her decision to Divorce, but that I strongly believed we could work through it. She shook her head and said her heart was no longer in it. That she wasn't going back. I said it wasn't about going back but moving forward. Talked about some articles that I've read in regards to couples who have made it through affairs. She just said she would never trust me again and it was over.
She did say a couple times that she has moments where she is sad and moments where she hates my guts. That if she had an affair on me, I would want a divorce too and not want to try.
There was no arguing as we talked. It was more her stating she was moving forward with the D.
I've been very sad since Sunday. Wishing there was something I could say or do. Not sure where to go from here. Just wait for the papers, I guess. Seems like I should be doing something more for the M and for W. But it seems like it is just giving up to do nothing.
When she called on Christmas, she asked if I would come over on Sunday to help cut the cats' nails (this is normal for her to ask as she likes it done every 3 weeks). I agreed...when I got there W and I sat down and she brought up that she still wanted the D, which led to our conversation.
In your brief description of the conversation with your W, you didn't mention anything about you VALIDATING her reason for wanting a D. It showed that you were still interested in what YOU wanted and not her.
" Said that I respect her decision to Divorce, but that I strongly believed we could work through it."
See? This isn't validation. At that time, you need to show her that you understood why she was doing what she was doing and how she feels and was sorry about your actions. Then said you respected her decision to D and then ended it.
"I said it wasn't about going back but moving forward. Talked about some articles that I've read in regards to couples who have made it through affairs."
How many times have you mentioned the word 'I'?
"She did say a couple times that she has moments where she is sad and moments where she hates my guts. That if she had an affair on me, I would want a divorce too and not want to try."
That is another point you should have validated. But when she mentioned that you would have wanted a D, you could have just told her you didn't think so.
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
I see your points...in replaying the conversation in my head, I did not do much validation of her reason for wanting the D. I don't do that out of fear...fear that if I don't tell her how I feel about her and that I still want the M, that she will think I don't care and proceed with the D much quicker.
In my mind, to validate her decision for the D tells her that I want a D too. Or that I'm not interested in saving the M. Since I don't want her to think that, I go to the opposite extreme and tell her how much I don't want a D. In doing that, I make it about me and my feelings.
Last Fri, W asked if I would pick up some cat food and bring it over on Sun. When I got there on Sun, I was prepared for her to give me the d papers.
We had some conversations about the cats and she asked me to look at/fix a couple things around the house. She talked a little about her D (my Step-d) and some business trips that SD has been taking.
Was there about an hour and a half. She did not mention the divorce papers and I did not bring it up. No contact since Sunday.
Outside of a couple work questions, there was no contact last week and no contact over the weekend or yesterday. Today, I sent her an email asking how the cats were (one of our cats has been dealing with an undertermined illness for many months). She responded they were doing ok, but the one seems to be regressing. W said she was stressed out and discouraged by this and didn't know what to do. I replied back trying to reinforce the positive and reiterating what the vet has been saying all these months. Said for her to pray about the situation daily, esp when she was feeling stressed. She replied and said "Thanks for talking me down". It felt good to read that...like I was able to be there for her. W has made no mention of the D or the papers being filed.
Went over to the house on Sunday. W had asked me to bring over some cat litter and to cut their nails. She had me look at our taxes and look at the taxes for her father's estate. We took some time and looked those over. She then said that she had not filed the D papers, but planned to soon. We did not argue, she was very matter of fact. She said with it being 6 months since we've been separated (next week), she felt it was time to file. That she has not changed her mind once in those 6 months that the D is the answer. Also told me that in the last 6 months, she has not ever had one thought about getting back together with me. (that was heartbreaking to hear). She reiterated that her heart was not in it anymore and that it was time for her to move on. I validated her feelings and apologized for my actions again. She also said she could never forgive me for what I'd done. I told her I understand. She brought up the finances and said she still felt I should walk away with just the clothes on my back and that's it. She feels I should not get 1/2 the equity or anything else. That she can't afford it, esp with their summer home expenses. She also said she felt this way since this was all my fault and she was the victim of what I'd done. I was calm and explained that I understood why she felt that way and for us to leave that piece of it to the attorneys. Before I left, she asked if she had further questions on the taxes or her 401k, if I would be ok with her asking me them and I said of course. That if she had any questions at all, i would be happy to help. She also told me she is planning some vacation time in June and July...asked if I would be able to take care of the cats during those times. I said yes, that would be fine. That was about it. I must say, validating her feelings like I did made me feel like it truly is the end. I was very upset after I left...did a lot of crying and was very sad. I'm not sure what to do at this point...therapy appt tonight.
Why on earth did you let her walk all over you? You should have told her that while you made mistakes, you apologized for them and her constant "punishment" is not going to help any. That she also made mistakes and while you've worked out why you did what you did and apologized for it time and time again and even tried to atone them with her, she has not once looked at why she may have helped contribute to the downfall of the M and not the A itself.
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
Before I had caught up to your w's present position, my first thought was what I would do if I were in her shoes.
you did have an affair but if I'm not mistaken, YOU confessed it, as opposed to her discovering it? IS that accurate?
I'd have seen that as something. If my h had a short term A, and I knew also that our sex life needed...more...I like to think I'd consider a recon.
But it would mainly be one of two obstacles. The old me would have said "no way, too angry and will never trust you again. Boom!"
the new me would wait and see a bit. And for ME, being swept off my feet is what I'd need to trust that my h was SURE he wanted me and only me. I'd need to know all the things he loves about me, and how fun I am to be around, etc.
Originally Posted By: JFred
Went over to the house on Sunday. W had asked me to bring over some cat litter and to cut their nails. She had me look at our taxes and look at the taxes for her father's estate. We took some time and looked those over. She then said that she had not filed the D papers, but planned to soon. We did not argue, she was very matter of fact.
She said with it being 6 months since we've been separated (next week), she felt it was time to file. That she has not changed her mind once in those 6 months that the D is the answer. Also told me that in the last 6 months, she has not ever had one thought about getting back together with me. (that was heartbreaking to hear).
And rather stubbornly prideful. But whatever...tell me the truth though. BEFORE the BD, and well, BEFORE The A, did you feel she loved you very much?
What was the C about if not the sex issues? Her grief? What? What were you two working on apart from the A?? Are ANY of those problems being addressed?
She reiterated that her heart was not in it anymore and that it was time for her to move on. I validated her feelings and apologized for my actions again. She also said she could never forgive me for what I'd done. I told her I understand. She brought up the finances and said she still felt I should walk away with just the clothes on my back and that's it. She feels I should not get 1/2 the equity or anything else. That she can't afford it, esp with their summer home expenses. She also said she felt this way since this was all my fault and she was the victim of what I'd done. I was calm and explained that I understood why she felt that way and for us to leave that piece of it to the attorneys. You gave the Perfect answer.
Also, Some of her "Clarity" in wanting the Div so much, may be based on her mistaken belief that just b/c you are wearing the hair shirt so long, that she actually believes she'll get more than half. Not so...imo. And financial motivators are fine if it also comes with some work.
Before I left, she asked if she had further questions on the taxes or her 401k, if I would be ok with her asking me them and I said of course. That if she had any questions at all, i would be happy to help. She also told me she is planning some vacation time in June and July...asked if I would be able to take care of the cats during those times. I said yes, that would be fine. That was about it. I must say, validating her feelings like I did made me feel like it truly is the end. I was very upset after I left...did a lot of crying and was very sad. I'm not sure what to do at this point...therapy appt tonight.
If it were me, and it's not and I don't know your w, but here is what i would wonder.
DID I love this man and do I still? Okay if so, then the only reason I cannot take him back (if that is the case)
is FEAR of being hurt again AND OR the desire to punish him some more...
Assume that instead of fear, she's just really angry and so furious that she cannot see ever being with you again. You simply don't bring much to the table, for HER.
IN TIME< I see that changing if you continue to be her friend...and maybe in time, if she sees you as the new man you wanted to become
and now some other woman gets the new improved YOU, that would make me take a second look. NOT if it's with the same OW again!!...
but if I were to see my h after I pushed a divorce thru and he was openly sad and expressive but still a good reliable friend,
and then I saw him understandably moving on and that he was attractive to OWs and was perhaps making other changes I had wanted all along, it would be hard for me to Not second guess my choice.
I would have to vilify him ("he's still a cheat!!") to justify my recalcitrance.
OTOH if I did not love my h anymore and the A was a great way to blame him for that, then I'd be totally done. And that might also explain why I was willing to only ML 5 times a year, before hand....
If it is FEAR and Fear alone that keeps her from "Ever" trusting you again, that may be just a real big tragedy. Only time with her seeing you as a stable guy, NOT necessarily pursuing her,
"b/c you want to abide by her choice".
At some point, let her know that you don't want to be alone the rest of your life and you intend to date IF & Only IF, she is certain it's over w/you now.
If she says it is over and done, and you end up divorced, then move forward.
I can actually imagine you two getting divorced, then her feeling she did the "tough love" thing and then you two reigniting. It might take you dating others, or planning your own vacation, or it might take just TIME
...but HER dating others (IF) is not necessarily the death knell of anything. It will more likely help you than hurt. Once she sees what is out there and that you are compatible (assuming you are) and a good catch,
she may well reconsider her stance. That is my take on it anyhow.
Please make sure you take GOOD care of yourself. The healthier you are, and I include physically healthy there, the more appealing you are.
Especially since she just saw her mom and dad get sick and die...who wants to be alone later in life? Are there grandchildren from her d?
Take care of yourself and start being more upbeat around her. Wear new cool clothes (do the "Rules" for Newbies and all that. New cologne, etc). Be a man only a fool would leave, Despite the A.
and ask yourself this: "IF I had not had the A, where would we be now?"
Sure, you can say "all better IF ONLY I had not done that" and you will never really know.
What we do know- is that there were issues other than the A, which you both seem to be ignoring and one of them is the SSM.
Has she ever been asked what SHE was thinking would happen, eventually, when she said "no" to sex to her h, a younger man, for that long?
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Went over to the house on Sunday. W had asked me to bring over some cat litter and to cut their nails. She had me look at our taxes and look at the taxes for her father's estate. We took some time and looked those over. She then said that she had not filed the D papers, but planned to soon. We did not argue, she was very matter of fact. She said with it being 6 months since we've been separated (next week), she felt it was time to file. That she has not changed her mind once in those 6 months that the D is the answer. Also told me that in the last 6 months, she has not ever had one thought about getting back together with me. (that was heartbreaking to hear). She reiterated that her heart was not in it anymore and that it was time for her to move on. I validated her feelings and apologized for my actions again. She also said she could never forgive me for what I'd done. I told her I understand. She brought up the finances and said she still felt I should walk away with just the clothes on my back and that's it. She feels I should not get 1/2 the equity or anything else. That she can't afford it, esp with their summer home expenses. She also said she felt this way since this was all my fault and she was the victim of what I'd done. I was calm and explained that I understood why she felt that way and for us to leave that piece of it to the attorneys. Before I left, she asked if she had further questions on the taxes or her 401k, if I would be ok with her asking me them and I said of course. That if she had any questions at all, i would be happy to help. She also told me she is planning some vacation time in June and July...asked if I would be able to take care of the cats during those times. I said yes, that would be fine. That was about it. I must say, validating her feelings like I did made me feel like it truly is the end. I was very upset after I left...did a lot of crying and was very sad. I'm not sure what to do at this point...therapy appt tonight.
JFred,
Let me ask you a simple question: do you still want to try to re-attract your wife, and save your marriage?
It's a serious question. My advice as to what your tactics should be at this point are slightly different based upon what your current goal is. But either way, this whole "supplication" thing isn't going to accomplish anything, I'm afraid, either in the form of re-attraction or just in simply feeling good about yourself.
Starsky: Yes, I still want to save my marriage and re-attract W. When I moved out back in August, W was worried about finances. Based on that, I said I would pay for any costs associated with the cats, or help out with them anyway I could. Not having children of my own, they are my "girls", so to speak. Based on that, I do whatever is needed of me to take care of them. The questions about taxes and 401k, etc are natural since finances are my forte. If I were to say no to helping with the cats or answering her questions, wouldn't that tell her that I don't care?
25years: Wife found out I was seeing the OW first and so I broke it off with OW. That only lasted a little over a week or so and I went back to seeing OW again. After a few weeks of seeing OW again, I then confessed to W (and broke it off with OW for good). W sounds like the old you...angry and hurt, "it's over". The fear of trusting me again and being hurt again appears to be how she is feeling (based on what one of her close friends told me). W and I had been very close, but drifted apart in the last couple years with taking care of her parents. After W found out about OW the first time, we went to C to discuss OW as well as how we had drifted apart, the sex issue, and the lack of communication issue. We only got in 5 counseling sessions and then I confessed about still seeing the OW. After that, the C ended as W did not want to continue with it. So we were never really able to get into working on any of the issues. There are no grandchildren from her D. The counselor did ask her about the lack of making love. What she felt was the reason. She had stated she was gong through menopause and just figured that it killed her sex drive. he then asked her how she felt that made me feel. She said she figured it wouldn't make me feel too good, but that since we would joke about it, she didn't think it was a big deal. I'm staying physically active and eating good. Sleep is very tough. The nighttime is the worst time for me because I think about everything so much. My C has some things we are working on to try to alleviate my thoughts. Hopefully, they will work...so far, not much luck.
Starsky: Yes, I still want to save my marriage and re-attract W. When I moved out back in August, W was worried about finances. Based on that, I said I would pay for any costs associated with the cats, or help out with them anyway I could. Not having children of my own, they are my "girls", so to speak. Based on that, I do whatever is needed of me to take care of them. The questions about taxes and 401k, etc are natural since finances are my forte. If I were to say no to helping with the cats or answering her questions, wouldn't that tell her that I don't care?
Fred,
Basically, she has "fired" you as her husband right now. You should treat her accordingly (kindly, like you would a neighbor whom you took in to board) -- no more, no less.
She needs to feel the consequences of the decision she's made, and "putting on her BGPs (big-girl panties) as we used to say around here is called for. That doesn't mean you act MEANLY towards her, it simply means that you stop doing things a husband would typically do.
Tough call on the cats, as they are like kids to a childless couple (or to me, and I have four kids!) Personally, I'd say "yes" to helping with the cats, but "no" to rescuing her with the financial stuff. But that's just me.
I strongly suggest that you speak to a Divorce Busting Coach. Many people use DB coaches in addition to counselling. Our coaches are Pro Marriage and can teach you what you need to say and do to get your marriage back on track. Please call me to discuss our coaching program 303-444-7004.
Roberta, Resource Coordinator The Divorce Busting Center 303-444-7004 Roberta@divorcebusting.com
Thanks Starsky...I see what you are saying. I have to continue to take care of the cats, my girls! But I will pull back on answering the other questions and fixing things around the house. It's hard because she has always looked to me for these things. For me, to continue doing these things makes me feel like I'm still wanted in that husband role. But after reading what you wrote and really thinking about it, as you said, I do need to stop.
Thanks Bond...I didn't see it as her walking over me, but in thinking about what you wrote and the conversation W and I had, I do see it now. I will try to employ the discussion points from your email if/when W goes down that road again. It's difficult, in that, while I continue to work on dealing with the guilt from my actions...when I see W hurting from my actions, that guilt becomes massive and I roll over and take the blame for everything in some misguided effort to not step on her toes or make things "worse".
it's good to get other opinions. I don't feel strongly about all of this but I remind Starsky and Bond, that YOU had the A. Not once, but twice, even after seeing how hurt your w was from the first discovery, you repeated it shortly thereafter!
Starsky, would you advise a woman in these shoes (i.e. the woman who had the A, twice) the same way you are advising JF?
I'm NOT accusing you of a big bias, but I am exploring this, b/c this situation is pretty different to me than some MLC WAW blurting out orders to her doormat h.
I don't see that here. I see a lot of confusion in her and possibly the reality that she had checked out of the m before...also sensing major depression in her.
I agree that being too supplicating can make you unattractive, but there IS some room for you to compensate for the hurt you caused.
A lot of this is a balancing act.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Starsky, would you advise a woman in these shoes (i.e. the woman who had the A, twice) the same way you are advising JF?
Yes, absolutely. Pursuing/placating/supplicating behavior is unattractive in EITHER sex, and any spouse claiming to want divorce should be allowed to begin to feel the consequences of that decision. If we shelter them from it by continuing to act as their spouse in every way that entails, they will never be forced into the "crucible" that Schnarch wrote so brilliantly about.
I'll go read the citation Starsky, (b/c you say it's "brilliant' and that means something to me). Also I don't mean to hijack this thread, but perhaps clarification will be good or useful
Starsky, You wrote:
Yes, absolutely. Pursuing/placating/supplicating behavior is unattractive in EITHER sex, and any spouse claiming to want divorce should be allowed to begin to feel the consequences of that decision. If we shelter them from it by continuing to act as their spouse in every way that entails, they will never be forced into the "crucible" that Schnarch wrote so brilliantly about. My question relates to this^^^....
"ANY spouse...want divorce should be allowed to...feel consequences".
So, a beaten spouse who finally wants to end the abuse, gets what from her LBS?
A SSM in which the spouse who feels chronically rejected, who finally realizes the M won't ever have enough affection for their needs, will never "speak in their'love language"', and wants their painful situation to end, files or says they want to.
My question is, why wouldn't you want to advise their LBS to pursue or work on their m?
Why not allow the LBS (in that situation) to be validated for being hurt so often that they'd feel the need to end the M?
What's with holding back on a spouse who already felt rejected or denied?
I think elaboration is probably what I'm seeking.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
"but I remind Starsky and Bond, that YOU had the A. Not once, but twice, even after seeing how hurt your w was from the first discovery, you repeated it shortly thereafter!"
For me, while he hid the affair the first time, he admitted it the second and felt genuine remorse for it. His W didn't address any of the problems that caused their problems in the first place (lack of sex, intimacy, etc.) and chose to constantly concentrate on the A.
For those of us who have been on here awhile, we know that when it comes to A's many times there are false starts. But often the cheating spouse doesn't stop until they are caught. In this case he fessed up to it and tried to set things right. The remorse and not just regret that has been shown is why I think he deserves a second chance.
But if his W continues to just concentrate on A, then he should stand up for himself.
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
"but I remind Starsky and Bond, that YOU had the A. Not once, but twice, even after seeing how hurt your w was from the first discovery, you repeated it shortly thereafter!"
For me, while he hid the affair the first time, he admitted it the second and felt genuine remorse for it. His W didn't address any of the problems that caused their problems in the first place (lack of sex, intimacy, etc.) and chose to constantly concentrate on the A. Usually it's the betrayed spouse who comes on here. And we tell them that the cheater must earn their trust again, be totally transparent, not expect to regain the trust anytime soon, ETC ETC ETC so I feel as if the same ought to be said TO the person who had the A.
OTOH, Bond, just so you know, there are lots of times to me, the betrayed spouse comes here and what we tell them to expect, just sounds a lot like punishment, which might not ever end...
So I get what you are saying.
For those of us who have been on here awhile, we know that when it comes to A's many times there are false starts. But often the cheating spouse doesn't stop until they are caught. In this case he fessed up to it and tried to set things right. The remorse and not just regret that has been shown is why I think he deserves a second chance. I think it means there is real remorse. And I think there ought to be some point in time when the A does Not get to keep being thrown in anyone's face (not that she did that). It cannot be held over the head of the wayward spouse who is trying to move past it.
I wonder if SHE thinks she gave him a second chance. Maybe she was just waiting to see if HER feelings magically came back (which rarely happens) and maybe that is what she called the "second chance", or the originally short time in which she attended counseling with him..
But if his W continues to just concentrate on A, then he should stand up for himself.
I agree.
I just don't know when that time period is. Everyone knows it takes SOME time.
So how long is that? What is our criteria for assessing "enough"?
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
"ANY spouse...want divorce should be allowed to...feel consequences".
So, a beaten spouse who finally wants to end the abuse, gets what from her LBS?
A SSM in which the spouse who feels chronically rejected, who finally realizes the M won't ever have enough affection for their needs, will never "speak in their'love language"', and wants their painful situation to end, files or says they want to.
My question is, why wouldn't you want to advise their LBS to pursue or work on their m?
Because "pursuit" doesn't work, it leads to clinginess which kills attraction, and because it totally disrespects the other spouse's decision. It's basically saying "You say you want a divorce, because _________ , but I disagree and I'm going to keep pursuing you."
My advice to the LBS is to say "I don't WANT a divorce, but I respect your decision and I won't stand in your way. I acknowledge the hurt(s) I caused you, and I've asked for your forgiveness for them and I've owned up to them myself and am working on myself to make me a better person. But I won't stand in your way."
My advice to the LBS is to say "I don't WANT a divorce, but I respect your decision and I won't stand in your way. I acknowledge the hurt(s) I caused you, and I've asked for your forgiveness for them and I've owned up to them myself and am working on myself to make me a better person. But I won't stand in your way."
What I'm asking relates NOT to the typical "give me space!" WAS comments. I agree that if a spouse says they need a time out or some space, you STFU and give it to them.
I'm talking about situations in which there was little or No pursuit IN the marriage OR in which another approach might fit. We all know the "rules" are not for all situations (and I think some of the rules conflict with each other, so they're given as guidelines, not "rules").
We know that this couple (so "they", not "she") had a SSM. Until he broke the vows with the A, perhaps he did not make HIS needs clear enough to her for her to realize the importance of ML and maybe, maybe, he did not make his needs known to her before. All I know is THEY did not ML often.
Might his wife simply want some passionate pursuit or to KNOW she is desired and wanted by him? Could their sex life need a little tuning up? Menopause can effect sex drive but it's not the only factor and there are things women can do to ameliorate the factors that negatively impact intimacy.
Also, Might this be a test? (The answer is of course it MIGHT be).
What I'm suggesting is that some women (and probably some men) who feel rejected or unloved by a spouse, need to be pursued. An A is a big fat rejection in the most intimate of ways. It makes a woman feel insecure as heck (and that does Not increase the libido!)
In those situations, I'd argue that going cold is more of the same, or worse.
I do NOT know if THIS is one of those situations.
(I fear it's NOT one of those. I fear he needs to move forward in his life and to see if later on, down the road, their friendship and the bonds of the past can resurface and reveal the love I think they both have for each other). Only time and perhaps a divorce or a lot of distance, will tell.
But I pose those questions anyhow, partly b/c Bond and Starsky are here and that's convenient and it COULD apply to this. And partly b/c I think there are LBSers who want there to be nothing THEY Can do to change their situation. B/C to them, it makes it all the WAS fault. Know what I mean?
Hope this does not muddy the waters more. Not my intent.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
What I'm suggesting is that some women (and probably some men) who feel rejected or unloved by a spouse, need to be pursued. An A is a big fat rejection in the most intimate of ways. It makes a woman feel insecure as heck (and that does Not increase the libido!)
In those situations, I'd argue that going cold is more of the same, or worse.
Yes, it's possible, and if he feels that's the case here, he should let his wife know that he "gets it" (by acknowledging where he fell short), and commit to her that he will work on those issues as soon as she ends her affair.
"End your affair and return to the marriage, and I think you will find that I am willing to work on any and all issues -- including my own. But make no mistake, in the meantime, I am NOT willing to live in an open marriage" should be his position.
In my opinion.
On a final note, there are more than one kind of "test". It's far more likely (again, in my opinion, but let's just say "JUST" as likely for the sake of argument) that his wife is testing him to see if he will strongly enforce his own boundaries, and remain firm in them and ALSO remain firm in exhibiting new behaviors that he is a changed man who "gets it."
25Years: Yes,I had the affair twice. When I ended the affair the first time, W insisted on counseling, which I agreed to. After the first 2 sessions, it appeared to me (because of my state of mind) that the sessions were solely about my A and not about the communication and lack of intimacy issues W and I had. After the 2nd session, I checked out mentally/emotionally from the counseling. I took the easy way out and went back to the OW where I could get validation. I went to 3 more counseling sessions with W, and then finally confessed to W after we had gotten home from the 5th (and final session).
In terms of compensating for the hurt I caused, I agree with you. I believe there is room for me to do that. But as Bond said in an earlier post, I have asked her (as well as her family)for forgiveness. I have apologized many, many times to her in our conversations. W believes my regret and remorse is sincere as she has told me she believes it is. But in every conversation she always tells me how this is all because of my A and that she is the victim of what I did. Based on that, I don't know how else to compensate for the hurt caused. I continue and will continue to take care of the cats. But as Starsky pointed out, should I really be helping her with matters that I had previously done in the H role? I'm not sure.
With regards to the lack of ML. Last time W and I ML'd was Feb of 2012. I believe I pursued her in that regard. Flowers, telling her how beautiful she was. I don't mean to share too much info, but there were many times I tried to get her to shower together with me. Things like that. We had always been compatible until about 5 years ago. So perhaps it was the menopause. But I do believe that I tried what I could in regards to showing her she was wanted and desired in a physical and emotional way. Where I failed in that regard is by not talking to her about it more. As I said before, we would laugh and joke about it....I don't think either one of us knew how exactly to handle it. I share in that responsibility. When her parents became sick and we took care of them before passing, all our issues were placed on the backburner.
Thanks to you and Starsky and Bond for the prior posts. It gives me lots more insight and helps me to look at the situation in different ways.
W got news this past week that her aunt (mom's sister) is not good. Aunt fell at her home and bruised her back. While she was in the hospital, found inoperable lung cancer. W is upset as she said A is wasting away and not eating much at all. Everyone feels the end is close. I was close to A as well, so this was very hard to hear. Told W I am praying for A and if she or the family needs anything, to let me know. Hard to draw a line on something like this and to know what to say or what not to say.
Yesterday (2/20) was the one year anniversary of W's father's passing. W took yesterday and today off from work. I did send W an email yesterday telling her I was thinking of her knowing it was a tough day. Also told her a funny story about her dad that always made her laugh. I saw W last night as we got our taxes done together...she mentioned she got the email, but that was it. Not much other dialogue except around the taxes.
Feeling pretty sad today and helpless. Wishing I could be there to comfort W. But I know I lost the right to do that by having the A. Just wish I could be with her.
Met with my attorney on Friday. Looked over the D papers that W filed. My attorney said, "it should be pretty simple". My atty knows I don't want the D, but she also said there is nothing we can do to stop it. If W is intent on D, then I have to accept it.
W had me over yesterday to cut the cats' nails. No mention of the D from either one of us. She filled me in on her entire family, which was nice to hear since it was the most info she has given to me about them since I've been gone. She also told me she is going on a vacation with her sister (and her S's family) to Florida in May.
I continue praying, but at this point, not sure what else there is for me to do. This is horrible...
It wasn't just to cut their nails...she knows how much the cats mean to me, so it was an invite to come over and spend time with them. She has been clear that she wants me to spend time with them and will not restrict my access to them.
Her initial email to me was to see if Sunday was a good time to come see the cats. When I was there, she asked if I wanted to cut their nails. Since I probably won't be back for another couple weeks, I figured it was a good time to do so.
W and I discussed prior to my moving out. She loves them too...they are our "kids". Anyway, I felt it better for them to stay in the only house they've known. One is 13 and the other is 11, so I didn't feel uprooting them at this stage of their lives would be fair to them. The 13 year old has some health issues, so that was another reason. I didn't want to add any additional stress by moving them.
D is in the negotiating process. This is the worst thing I've ever gone through.
W's birthday is tomorrow...so many plans and dreams just gone. Sad. First time in 18 years I won't be with her to wish her a happy b-day. And I know it's my own poor decisions and choices that got me here. I realized, just too late.
Been with W since I was 24 years old. Not quite sure how to move on. I seem stuck in this fantasy that she will somehow decide she wants the M. But deep down, I know it's not going to happen.
Twin, Train, Dev...I've been reading your sitches...I'm praying for each of you. Being on the other side of what you are going through, I'm sorry for what you have all experienced.
JFred, thank you for the prayers. Want to call my H and tell him what a huge mistake he is making? LOL! I understand your pain about the birthday thing, H's birthday is in 2 weeks and knowing he will be spending it with his family and her/her kids is ROUGH. Just keep moving forward!
Me: 35 husband:39 Sons 16 and 11 from my first marriage Twins 5 (boy/girl) Daughter 3 Affair bomb 2/27/14 He moved in with ow 3/13/14 OW kicked him out 6/15/14 4/2016 he seeks help for sexual addiction
W's b-day came and went; that was a very hard day. D is still in the negotiation process. W does not bring up the D. when we do talk, which is rare, she only talks about the cats.
W went to FL with her sister (and sister's family) last week and then up to the family cottage over Memorial Day weekend. I did take care of tha cats and it was nice to see them, albeit hard to be over at the house. W came over to me at work today and thanked me for taking care of the cats while she was away.
I'm strugglng this last month or so. The realization that the M is over and she doesn't want it. Tough days. Have my IC tonight, which I suppose is good. Still find myself wishing W could just try...but I know I crossed a line and broke the vows and the trust.
Just checking in to see how your holding up? Can only imagine the difficulty and struggles you are going through. Hopefully everything you have learned and continue to learn, will help you as you travel through the next few months, on whichever road you end up on. Stay strong, and continue to improve yourself!
Holding up ok....it's been tough the last few weeks. With W's b-day, Memorial Day, the D itself, and my B-day coming up in a couple weeks. It's like there is a big piece of me missing.
I've learned a lot about myself and about the pain I caused W. Lots of guilt still there for me to get through too. Doing the best to stay atrong. IC helps, but I feel like I have taken a couple steps backward within the last couple months.
I'm following your sitch, as well as Trains, Twinmom, mdu, and others. You are all in my thoughts and prayers daily.
Glad to hear your holding up ok. It's definitely a tough time around the holidays. Myself, I imagine Father's Day will be very tough for me. Stay strong, good luck and thanks for the prayers. Still pulling for you.
Really hard day again today. W came over (we work together for the same company just down the hall from each other) to confirm I could take care of the cats while she is on vacation. She leaves tomorrow and will be back on the 15th. Hard to have a conversation with her as she talks like we're friends; no emotions, just very matter of fact. She also talked about the Dish account they have on her family's summer cottage...it's in my name right now. She talked about how next time I was over we would call them to get it switched over to her name. Again, very matter of fact when discussing. Part of me just wanted to yell "no, i don't want to do that", but I just agreed.
D is tough now too...My atty sent our proposal almost 2 months ago. We have yet to hear from W or her atty. My atty contacted W's atty, who just said that she had not had a chance to put W's responses in writing yet. That was 3 weeks ago. So I don't know what to think about that. In one way, it gives me hope that maybe W won't go through with the D. But then, W has not giving any indication she wants to do anything other than D.
Sorry, rambling, Father's Day coming up, my b-day is the day before. First one in 18 years I won't be with her...and she didn't say "have a happy birthday" or anything like that to me when she left my desk today. Hard to take. I'm a wreck these days and not getting any better.
Been thinking a lot today...on Wed 6/11, it will have been 10 months since I moved out at W's request.
So, taking into account the following:
-separated for 10 months -W moving forward with D (even though I still have not heard from her atty in almost 2 months) -W does not talk to me except about the cats -W has not wavered from wanting the D...she has not said anything in terms of reconciling or saving the M -W has said all along she can't forgive me -W has said she will never trust me again -W said back in Sept 2013 that she will always care about me, but does not love me anymore.
Am I foolish for being hopeful and for still wanting the M? Outside of continuing to work on myself, is there anything that I should be doing? I continue to pray for the M to be saved, but lately, I wonder if the R with W is over and I'm just being an idiot for hoping.
I understand W has every reason to feel the way she feels and to take the D action based on how badly my actions hurt her. Just wondering at what point do I give up hope?
Thanks Bond...that's exactly what I've been doing is letting it constantly consume me. I'm not sure why I've gone back to feeling that way. Could be the birthdays, etc or the Summer season upon us when W and I would do so many things together. It could also be being served with the D papers...that was harder on me than I thought it would be (even though they are just "papers").
Weekend was horrible...celebrating b-day without W for first time in 18 years. No card, no "happy b-day" wishes from her. I didn't expect it, but was hoping.
Haven't had a reply from W (and her atty) regarding my atty's proposal in over 2 months now. W avoids discussing D with me.
I'm headed over to W's tonight to help with the cats. Do I ask about the D? or do I just (try to) play it cool and keep conversation at a minimum? Any advice on anything I should/shouldn't say or do?
I'm all over the map these days with my emotions. Trying to keep Bond's reply in mind to detach...don't think I'm doing too good with that right now.
Met with W on Saturday. She apologized for the delay in responding to the D. She said her atty is horrible. Anyway, we had a nice, civil conversation, but she has not changed her stance. She wants the D and does not want to reconcile. The delay has been financial. She is scared and worried about whether or not she will make it from a money standpoint.
We did talk about the A some. But for her, it comes back to the fact I had the A and failed the M. She acknowledged the other issues we had in the M, but ultimately the A is what ended it for her. The A was her boundary...once I had it, that was it for her.
I did hold her hand at one point when she was crying about the financial situation, and she held mine back. First time that has happened in almost a year since I moved out. I said take a deep breath...it will be ok. Asked her to try and focus on the blessings in her life...her wonderful family, her daughter getting engaged.
Tough weekend....hard to hear about her family and her D getting engaged. A stark reminder that life is moving on and it is moving on without her and I in each other's lives. Hard day today. No idea where to go from here or what to do.
That sounds like it was really hard but your kindness was the right thing. Reminding her of the blessings in her life was loving. I'm sure this is really hard for her and your response showed generosity and unselfishness. That's a big deal.
Best wishes to you.
Me42, H40 D12, S8, S7 A revealed: 7/13 Sep 4/14; Agreed to D 1/15
Do you have any family you can focus on? What blessings do you have in your life right now? Make a list! Focus on these....
Me: 35 husband:39 Sons 16 and 11 from my first marriage Twins 5 (boy/girl) Daughter 3 Affair bomb 2/27/14 He moved in with ow 3/13/14 OW kicked him out 6/15/14 4/2016 he seeks help for sexual addiction
I have been spending a lot of time with my nephew in his summer lacrosse league. My niece is starting grad school in a few weeks and is moving into an apartment, so have also been helping her shop and get ready for the move.
I still am living with mom & dad and helping them around the house and yard. It's nice to be able to help them out. I am blessed with a wonderful family who has been supportive for the past year.
My struggles mostly come at night and in the morning. When it's just me...bedtime, getting ready for work, etc...It starts with thoughts of W and how much I miss her and love her. It goes into the guilt over the A and how much I hurt W. Then it goes into where I go in the future. In between those thoughts, there's moments where I am hopeful that M will be saved, but also thoughts that W would be better off without me. Then after all that, there are prayers.
I try to think of what do to to save the M, but after a year like this, she's made her mind up. One of our coworkers here yesterday said as much...that even though W is scared of the financial aspect, that W knows she will be ok and the D is the right thing to do.
I miss her so much. I don't know where to go or what to do from here. Sorry...another bad day.
I understand the bad days. Maybe you should try and get out more with people your own age? Meet some new people, try some activities out of your comfort zone. I went on a solo vacation, it scared the crap out of me but I proved to myself that I could be alone. For me just being alone is the hardest part (being with the kids doesn't count)
Me: 35 husband:39 Sons 16 and 11 from my first marriage Twins 5 (boy/girl) Daughter 3 Affair bomb 2/27/14 He moved in with ow 3/13/14 OW kicked him out 6/15/14 4/2016 he seeks help for sexual addiction
Yes, being alone is the hardest. I do need to expand my comfort zone.
Got a letter from atty yesterday...divorce is just about settled. It was a punch to the gut I didn't need, but knew was coming. Agreements will be drawn up, signed, and filed in the next couple weeks.
Starsky, Train, Wonka, Twin, and Bond...I'm at a loss right now. I have the utmost respect for all of you. So be honest with me, is there really any hope left? Or is this truly it?
Starsky...I know you said in another post that 20-25% get remarried...did you mean to their same partner? How does that happen if W wants nothing to do with me?
