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http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...163#Post2392163

Good morning DBers smile

Just checking in.

My title reflects my current stage on my journey. A daunting discovery if ever there was one. To learn the only person stopping me is me. To learn I need to figure out what I want because it's all up to me.

Family update.

H is at the casino atm. I am growing ever so tired of this routine. When he told me yesterday, as I was leaving for work, "I probably won't be here when you get back" I was sorely tempted to respond with "Ok. And I probably won't be here when you get back." But I'm not ready to go, and I don't make idle threats.

When H isn't thinking blackjack is going to make him rich he's thinking he wants to open a pizza place.

OW is still in the picture, as far as I know. Another epiphany I recently had is that I don't actually want H to drop OW. At least not just because I say so. No, I want him to THROW her away. If he were to stop only because I want him to then there would be pining. If he can't come to the realization that his marriage is more important than OW, then I see no point in a marriage. Amazing what new perspectives detachment can bring.

S20 currently thinks he's dying of lung cancer. He doesn't even smoke. We don't smoke. Its just the current manifestation of his anxiety.

D19 is in love with a 32 year old felon - who is currently in jail for DUI. She is living at home again, and has finally found a waitressing job but has not yet received a paycheck.

Ss17 are in the final days of football/soccer. I must admit I have shed a small tear over the end of this era. But it is good. They are getting closer to beginning their own journeys. They are doing well in school and have plans to go to college.
(Amazing differences in my kids, they run the spectrum.)

MWD had a FB post asking if her followers would marry the spouse, if they had it all to over again.

My answer was "No." I was wondering what my DB friends would answer?

Have to run. I hope you are all doing well.

Peace

~ smile ~

Jaye


Me 46 H 56
M 22 yrs
S22, D20, Twin Ss18

You teach people how to treat you by what you allow.
What you stop.
And what you reinforce.
~~~~~~~
A lack of boundaries invites a lack of respect.
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Hi Jaye!

I'm so sorry that OW is still a part of your H's life. Sigh. You've been doing such a great job holding ev'rything together smile

Interesting question to pose: would we marry our spouse all over again?

My initial reaction is NO!!!!

But then again....you've got the choice then to always be alone or marry an imperfect person. Everyone is going to have issues sooner or later.

I look at other M's and think I wouldn't want to put up with some things other people do. And the parts of my life that aren't directly related to my R with my H are great. We live in the country, money isn't a problem, kids are healthy, smart & good lookin' and my H has never prevented me from chasing my dreams.

So....possibly yes. Just wish life didn't have so many twists & turns sometimes. But looking back on this side of MLC, I think H & I are experiencing a M that's really special...a depth of love that I never imagined could be real.

So maybe....I'd do it all over again!

Thanks for provoking thought this morning.

I still love your tag line smile

Hugs to you today,
rH


Me54/H47
'08 H is "done"
March '12 H moved out
Brink of D, December '12
2014 totally reconciled!
......
"I firmly believe in the...absolute possibility of marriage renewal."
Jim Conway
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Originally Posted By: mizjjd

My title reflects my current stage on my journey. A daunting discovery if ever there was one. To learn the only person stopping me is me. To learn I need to figure out what I want because it's all up to me.

Agreed! You hold the key. What an empowering feeling! smile

-----------
Hmmm.. your question about if you could do it all again.... my answer would be that if I could do it again I don't think I would be in such a rush to marry. When I was young I placed such importance on getting married. Looking back, I don't see any reason to rush. I guess you come to realize that over time.


M: 8 yrs T:14
Twins:7 S:5
BD:'NLILWY': Feb/2013
Mar/Apr/May: MC
June: "living in limbo"
Sept 12: H moves out
Oct 20: reconciling
Jan-Feb 2014:MC
Feb 2014: separating, and H moved out.

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Hi RH & CP,

and "the rest" here on Gilligan's Isle wink

Just checking in.

H has added roulette to his casino adventures. And he is talking to local people about a pizza place. Item of interest. H was talking to some acquaintances about working out in the casino gym. But he never described it that way to them, he just said he was "out of town" at a hotel one weekend. Idk what if anything this evasion means, just a thing that makes me go "hmmm".

I have the feeling H is "trying". Nothing has been said, and no earth shattering changes have been made.

But I have the feeling that it doesn't matter to me. It is only a surface change - to me he is still a leopard even if he wears a tiger suit. This mindset makes me ponder myself, my morals, my expectations, my limits.

S20 is now dying of a blood clot. And possibly gangrene. This last bit was suggested to him by H when S20 was moaning over a skinned knee. H dismisses S20's anxieties and following the role-model-of-the-day Richie Incognito is attempting to "toughen up" S20. (And the spots are revealed...)

D19 has moved out. Well, she kind of snuck out. Very strange. She told me she was "staying with a friend" but really she had found an apartment - she told me this after a couple days. I'm not sure why she went about it this way. But she has a little one bedroom apartment, a fluffy kitten, and soon, the return of her 32 year old ex-con boyfriend. I think this must really be bothering me on a deep level because I've had a couple nightmares about it. The boyfriend was indirectly involved in a girl's death about 8 years ago. He was not convicted for that, but was for drugs. Now he's serving an OVI sentence and is to be released Wednesday. D19 has stars in her eyes for this guy. I have never seen her act this way over anybody else before. Sigh. I hope he's not violent, that is my biggest fear.

Ss17 are bouncing merrily along. Thank goodness for that lol.

I am mulling, pondering, waiting and watching. Really trying to narrow my focus to the here and now. And am feeling a lot of anger, a lot of hate for H. Maybe for me too? A difference (thanks to DB and the fantastic folks on the boards) is that I'm not ignoring this feeling. I acknowledge it, I own it. It is just a feeling, and I know feelings are temporary, so I am waiting for it to pass. And while I wait I watch the scales, weigh out the good and the bad, take some I once thought was one or the other and place it on the opposite scale.

smile The waters are dark, swirling and foamy here lol. Sailors advisory in effect.

And now its time for fastfoodland job.

Peace to all! Take care!

~~Jaye~~


Me 46 H 56
M 22 yrs
S22, D20, Twin Ss18

You teach people how to treat you by what you allow.
What you stop.
And what you reinforce.
~~~~~~~
A lack of boundaries invites a lack of respect.
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Jaye

How wonderful to hear from you!

I have been thinking of you.

Life has been more than a little full for all of us these days. And I think the stress cracks are beginning to show. Mine are more like stress craters.

You have lots on your plate. And I am finding that life doesn't stop so that we can deal with the crap. Life is the crap.

Love to you, my friend. I will throw you a lifejacket any time you fall overboard.

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Hi Jaye - good to hear from you smile

Was thinking about your question, a very interesting one to say the least.

My answer is absolutely yes - and not just because of our children together.

My H has hurt me deeply, more than I ever thought possible. He's treated me quite terribly at times during this crisis.

Yet, I have asked myself - is that really him? The guy I married?
Definitely not.

I have wished a lot of things. Wished I handled some things differently in my M and in my life. Wished that my H didn't have to suffer with his health problems. Wished that I had worked on me a lot sooner than during this.

But I can honestly say I never wished I didn't marry my H.

I really have no idea how this is all going to go, how my story will end with H.

I know the waters are stormy right now J, but it will pass. You can do this.
Glad to see you still have that sense of humor smile


Bomb January 2012 - doesn't feel the same about me

~ "There is nothing love cannot face; there is no limit to its faith, hope, and endurance."
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You've have a lot going on in your life these past few weeks. You do sound more detached and grounded. You are absolutely right about living in the here and now because you sure can't change anything that happened in the past and the future...well, it's not here yet.

I think you are handling your situation quite well. I'm sorry to hear that your S20 fretting over his skinned knee. Your h shouldn't suggest things to him to make him feel even more fretful. I do hope your son can move on from this situation.

Well, your daughter certainly went about moving out in a very strange way. Maybe she thought someone would talk her out of it...it'll be interesting to see if she actually tells you why she moved the way that she did. Oh, my, I don't think this guy is going to be any good for her, but she's got to learn the hard way. I do hope she'll be okay.

Ss17 sounds like he's in a good place. How is he doing in school?

What about you? How are the jobs coming along? How are you doing?


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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Hi TVS, Portia and Job!

TVS and Portia I just visited your threads and my goodness but you both are having a time of it. Things have, on the surface, been quiet here. Probably just means we're over due for a storm.

Job, I'd check on your thread but you're of course way too cool for a thread cool

But, I'll answer your questions here, and thank you so much for asking!


S20 is about a 5 or 6 on his anxiety scale right now. His fears are of course irrational, H feels he should be able to talk S20 out of them. The only person in H's world entitled to issues of any sort is H. The rest of us are just defective. X "shouldn't" bother us. S20 would benefit from therapy of some sort I am sure. He is a bit of a worry. And there is such a tension between him and H cry Its very hard for me to witness.

I think you are right, or close to it regarding D19's move. I'm sure she felt there would be disapproval of some sort. When she mentioned a possible move out several weeks ago my only comment was it would be best if she saved up some money first. She of course didn't do that lol. But she's always been a learn by experience kind of person. Tell her the stove is hot and she'll find out just how hot.

Ss 17 are doing well in school. S17B (the one who went to Florida) got straight A's for the first 9 weeks. S17B had all A's but one C. They are busy with school and their own fast food jobs while on break from school sports. But S17B does play on an indoor soccer rec league.

And about me. I am still at both jobs. Wonderfuljob has amped up a bit in the responsibility part. It seems the boss is, to many, difficult to work with/for. (Really? I hadn't noticed! Lol, you wanna see a difficult person? I can show you a difficult person...) 2 people have quit since I have been there, and another declined an opportunity because she'd heard too many rumors.

I am not thrilled with the status quo because I am always tired and rarely have down time. While I resent H's leaving at his convenience for the casino I do enjoy the break from his presence. H prattles on about future plans; I don't think he's planning on going anywhere. Although its only been a few weeks since a blow up with S20 ended with H yelling "I'm outta here the first chance I get! Just say the word and I'm gone!" (Eye roll. As if!)

I identify strongly with TVS's most recent posting. I have the feeling as long as I continue to pretend everything is hunky dory the sitch could go on indefinitely. Somehow this comes down to being on me, this break up/continuation of the M. Abdication of responsibility on H's part? Assumption of responsibility on my part?

I'm left pondering all the rights and wrongs. And just what is right? And what rights do I have? I did have an epiphany while doing dishes at fastfoodland today. It comes down, at least in part, to me determining whether or not I can be happy, or at peace, with whatever decision I make. (Fast Food Filosophy?) And I don't have an answer yet. I can, on some days, see living unhappily ever after with H. But would I be happier without H? I really don't know. I'll save you the keystrokes Job "Wait quietly and the answers will come to you." Sigh. But I wanna know NOW! I know something will happen sooner or later, things will shift, my perspective will change and those "answers" will surface. But by then I'll probably have different questions....

Oh, and here's an interesting update on the in-laws. They seem to be doing somewhat better of late. But MIL still has excruciating pain that has not been successfully addressed by therapy, medication or acupuncture. So, they are now experimenting with medical marijuana. grin Because of my brother's addiction issues I am pretty far in the anti-drug camp. But ya know, I can't think of two people who more need to get stoned.....

Ah well. I need to get some laundry done. Thank you everyone for stopping by. This board is so very awesome. I don't feel I "need" it like I did in the early days, but I'm so glad I found it and am welcomed back when I drop in now and again.

Blessings smile


Me 46 H 56
M 22 yrs
S22, D20, Twin Ss18

You teach people how to treat you by what you allow.
What you stop.
And what you reinforce.
~~~~~~~
A lack of boundaries invites a lack of respect.
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I wanted to check on how you're doing, and found your "new" thread Jaye, sorry. Holy cow you have a lot going on in your life. I can see you have got the DBing down pat with handling your kids. Poor S20, I remember in nursing school certain students always thought they had which ever disease we were currently studying. It must be so frightening for him. And...D19's new relationship must be so frightening for YOU. Your in-laws experimenting with medical marijuana (is that legal in Canada?). The twins, although seemingly doing well, teenagers always need a lot of love and guidance. Your jobs, and so-called difficult boss. And most of all your H. Portia's stress cracks are a-showin' !

This sure touched a chord with me:
"I identify strongly with TVS's most recent posting. I have the feeling as long as I continue to pretend everything is hunky dory the sitch could go on indefinitely. Somehow this comes down to being on me, this break up/continuation of the M. Abdication of responsibility on H's part? Assumption of responsibility on my part?

I'm left pondering all the rights and wrongs. And just what is right? And what rights do I have? I did have an epiphany while doing dishes at fastfoodland today. It comes down, at least in part, to me determining whether or not I can be happy, or at peace, with whatever decision I make. (Fast Food Filosophy?) And I don't have an answer yet. I can, on some days, see living unhappily ever after with H. But would I be happier without H? I really don't know."


You got me worrying - maybe this is my life too. I cannot see my H and RT continuing their skype love fest sessions indefinitely, but what if he picks up ever new EAs and PAs to replace her, as he had the past four years? How will we know when enough is enough? If we never feel that we are done, will we be living unhappily forever after as you ask?

But Jaye, this is the truism here:
"I'll save you the keystrokes Job "Wait quietly and the answers will come to you." Sigh. But I wanna know NOW! I know something will happen sooner or later, things will shift, my perspective will change and those "answers" will surface. But by then I'll probably have different questions...."

We need to trust the process Jaye. We need to sit quietly, as Job prescribes. Every time I gotten into a spinning frenzy (and you know I do it a lot smile ) if I am able to sit myself down and think and pray quietly, some answers come to me. Maybe not the final answers, but the answer that is needed at that moment, to get thru that moment of pain.

You are incredibly strong, to be able to deal with all that is being thrown at you right now. You are awesome! smile


Linda

Me 65, Ex 64
M 38 y
2 adult S, 4 G-Kids
MLC 11/07
BD 12/09
D 3/14
Dating nice guy 7/14
Engaged to nice guy 12/17
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Just stopping by to say hi, Jaye.

Your daughter's boyfriend situation would scare the heck out of me. I'm glad Ss 17 are doing well in school. It must be so hard to live with irrational anxiety. I hope S20 is doing better, or at least has some respite from his fears.


<<But I wanna know NOW! >> This sure does force us to learn how to be patient, doesn't it?

But I think the further on we get in this, it's easier to look at the situation more dispassionately, so that we can make those right decisions, the ones we can be at peace with.



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Hi RL & Miss A smile
Thanks for stopping by.

A rare moment of quiet. H is working late. I have my feet up, the TV volume turned down (Bill Murray in Scrooged) and am perusing the DB boards. So many new "faces" here.

To any of the newbies who might read this; HANG ON. IT GETS BETTER. More to the point, YOU'LL GET BETTER.

Not that I'm "all" better lol. But after reading some of the fresh, raw posts of the recently bombed I do realize that I have indeed progressed.

Is my marriage better? I have no idea. I don't think I have too much of a marriage right now. I have a husband, so one would think that would by definition mean there is a marriage - but I'm not so sure. There is of course no discussion of the R. There is no discussion of the OW.

On my part? Right now, no plans to leave. Not sure if that means I have plans to stay. H had some sort of epiphany a couple of weeks ago. We were in bed and he sort of gasped and said "You're trying to decide whether or not to keep me aren't you?" Such a funny way to phrase the question, as if he were a dog that wouldn't be house broken and I was deciding to "keep" him or not. But what a change too, from the days of H telling me he was "deciding".

H thinks he may be losing his mind. I have of course had the same thoughts. He seems a bit more introspective lately, and says he feels his mental abilities are slipping. Is this a progression in his path of depression? There is still anger, so much anger from him. Over things like "wasting" a garbage bag.

The gambling is fading a bit. H has found a local restaurant that is available to lease. H is warily interested in pursuing his pizza place. I am watching him, feeling strangely removed from the whole process.

The strangest new thing to report is that H has started doing laundry. I can't figure this one out. Not that I am complaining. And not that I am stopping him, or questioning him. (This is new for me. A learned behavior. I have learned that I do not have to do everything and that I am not less of a person for not being in charge of everything. Lol, I can't properly convey how new this attitude is for me. It must be like when a baby learns to walk...? How can I be proud of myself for not doing laundry, does that even make sense? But I have a huge sense of achievement over not stressing that "Oh no H is folding clothes! My gosh! That means I'm a horrible person!")

Like I said, I'm far from "all" better Lol - I'm a work in progress. A work in progress with clean socks smile

Gotta run.

~ Jaye


Me 46 H 56
M 22 yrs
S22, D20, Twin Ss18

You teach people how to treat you by what you allow.
What you stop.
And what you reinforce.
~~~~~~~
A lack of boundaries invites a lack of respect.
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He still crazy, M. But hey, if it gets you clean laundry - that's something, right?

Good on you for letting it go. You should feel good. That is a big thing for you.

So, for today, you are staying put. That can change or not. All your choice. smile

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I always like when the WAS realizes the choice has been taken from their hands. My H I think has recently realized this. What he does with the realization is up to him and who knows, really, what it means to them?

All I know is that
it meant the world to me smile

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I am praying for the choice to be mine again!!! I'm sure its a much better position than being "decided" on. That part sux!!

I am NOT plan B!

Thanks for the update Mizjjd!


M:46 H:49 T:20yrs
myD:22
H distant summer/12
H sleeping in b'ment: Nov/12
BD: Dec 2/12
asked me begin to move end of Jan/13
moved Jan 7/13 (left my stuff)
"agreed" to "working on r" Mar 3/13(lipservice!)
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Hey MizJ

If you have your feet up and a few spare minutes , that is awesome.

It is strange that you posted today. I was thinking of you. How despite our very different situations, that timeline from devastated to "putting our feet up" is a similar one. And the newbies will get there (here) too. I am putting up my feet as well, with an awesome cocktail and catching up. I feel content. A year ago I was hiding in closets.

I am proud of us, friend. We may ( OK, don't) have all the answers but we don't need to. Urgency is gone.

And never look a gift horse in the mouth, if H wants to do laundry, whatever floats his boat. Just hide your favourite clothes! And maybe hint that the dishes are feeling neglected (my least favourite chore).

Take care!

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Hey J that is progress! I think it is kind of funny that H asked you if you were debating keeping him or not. Maybe something in his crazy little head is telling him that he's got a good thing and maybe he needs to get his sh!t together.

I haven't been so lucky but glad one of us is. You deserve to kick your feet up. No one gives us a prize for doing everything ourselves. It's just nice when it is appreciated. Let H do the laundry. Maybe he'll move to something else next. Ha Ha.

Take good care of yourself J. May you have more days with your feet up!


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M 25 T 27
D 20,18,15
6/11 H filed
3/12 H dropped
4/12 H moved out
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Hello all.

Best wishes for a good Christmas.

Take care,

Love,

Jaye


Me 46 H 56
M 22 yrs
S22, D20, Twin Ss18

You teach people how to treat you by what you allow.
What you stop.
And what you reinforce.
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A lack of boundaries invites a lack of respect.
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Jaye,

Wishing you all the very best in the new year and always.

Do stop by once in a while and let us know how you are doing!

I am not on the alternet (I can barely keep up with my email), so I have to catch up here.

Love,
Portia

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Portia darlin! smile So good of you to stop by!

Hello all. We are having a snow day here. Actually its more of an extremely-cold day I believe. Negative 12 with windchill in the negative 40 range. Brrr! Wonderfuljob was closed yesterday and is today as well. H also was home yesterday but today he's off to work.

Family update.

S20 (almost 21! about 6 more weeks to go, smh) is currently suffering from blood clots, and possibly liver cancer. Sigh. He has started a "fear journal" where he records his fears and thoughts. I think the journal is a good thing - I hope it will help him help himself.

D19 is living in Detroit with her 33 year old felon. This is a stop-over on their way to NYC where her SO has a "7 figure income" awaiting him... (I'm not sure which of the two elder children is more delusional.) She says they're in love and plan to marry.

Ss 17 continue along. Thankfully no new developments there.

H. H is trying. I don't know what to make of this. He has continued to do laundry after a small stutter step. When the laundry room filled up again he went off in an H-snit. I paid this no mind. The next day he was doing laundry again. And he has trimmed a door and put up a banister for the stairs. He continues to pursue the pizza place. Hasn't been to the casino in a couple months but continues to "practice" on his computer. (It's really just a video game - it's not live, there is no betting involved.)

He hasn't said anything to me regarding our M or the OW. And I'm not asking. Lol, the shoes a bit on the other foot just now, because I thought the other day "Gosh I hope H doesn't ask me if I love him... because I don't know. And I don't want to get in a R talk!"

H is suddenly concerned for my well being. Tells me repeatedly to be careful driving. Did NOT find a morbid joking conversation about a headache literally killing me at all funny.

For Christmas H gave me 3 go out to dinner coupons. We had tentative plans to go out last week but then the weather turned bad. So I said no, let's just stay home. H must have asked 5 times if I wouldn't rather go out.

Told S20 that when our current pets die he is not interested in replacing them because they keep "us" from travelling. (You'd have to really know H to appreciate the full moment of silence S20 and I gave after this comment. The idea of H and I going on a vacation, or planning frequent travels... well, we needed a moment to digest that idea!)

All this behavior is new for H. Fair enough I suppose, because I have exhibited some new behaviors myself. Cause and effect? Or some sort of shift in H? Or just a temporary anomaly?

He's still not entirely likable. Refused to allow our 2 outdoor cats to come inside for these terribly cold days. (One of them is spending the day in the bathroom.... shhh. I haven't seen the other one yet.)

And I find this intolerable. And it makes me mad, MAD at myself too. Because I didn't tell H to go jump in a lake and bring them in anyway. (When I was a child of about 4 we were having a barn pulled down on our property. There was a mama cat and kittens in that barn. 4-year-old Jaye took her pillow and blanket to the barn to sleep with those cats and make sure Daddy didn't pull the barn down on top of them. 45-year-old Jaye? Just a bunch of talk. Not willing to rock this precarious boat... upset the kids... push H a little farther.) Yep, not happy with myself over this at all. The cats did find a way to get under the house in the crawl space so are not as bad off as they might be. But I feel H showed an alarming lack of empathy and compassion through out this issue. This has made me feel that I don't like him - and more importantly, I don't like "me" with him. frown

I will counter this self-disappointment with a quote from Robert Brault.

Optimist (n.) - someone who knows that taking a step backward after taking a step forward is not a disaster. It's the cha-cha.

wink

Take care DBers!

Love, Jaye


Me 46 H 56
M 22 yrs
S22, D20, Twin Ss18

You teach people how to treat you by what you allow.
What you stop.
And what you reinforce.
~~~~~~~
A lack of boundaries invites a lack of respect.
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We appear to be sharing the same cold snap, but I don't think our temps are in the negatives. I feel for all of you up north!

I'm very sorry to read about S20 and what he is going through. I can imagine that he is extremely scared of what lies ahead and rightly so. I'm keeping him in my prayers.

I wish your D19 all the best, but I think she needs to step back and wait a bit before even thinking about marrying this guy. I hope she wises up and soon.

S17 sounds like he's still on an even keel and doing okay.

I do have to wonder what is up w/the laundry. It appears that there are a few of them that do laundry. I wonder if it's soothing to them to hear the washing machines and dryers running and just knowing that there's not a lot of thought into sorting, etc. My mlcing friend was doing laundry every day! LOL!

How are the in-laws doing these days? What about you? How are you doing?


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Awesome to see your post Jaye!

Your H is trying. Lordy, can they confuse us any more? But good for you for not letting it throw you for too much of a loop.

I am a sucker for any animal in distress, so I am very proud of you for sneaking the kitty-cats in. My cat is so pampered, it is ridiculous. That little girl is in there Jaye, she just does things a little differently these days, that is all.

Do you think that laundry is like a Lady MacBeth sort of thing? A guilty sort of "out damned spot?" Wash away the sins? In my infrequent contacts with Skippy, he said more than once that his favourite part of his new apartment was the insuite laundry. And that he did laundry just for fun. So there is another one for the MLC play book, beware clean laundry!

Take care!

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omg, my h would catch up laundry on the weekends. he'd spend half the day. Folded so pristine!
he didn't like my just get it done method...didn't seem to remember that the laundry was not the only chore...
of course, I would thank him...
he stopped by to open gifts with kids xmas day but then left(no kidding) because he had to go do laundry.


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S20 at college),S17,D15-cp, dev. delay- cogniv 5yrs old
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Quote:
MWD had a FB post asking if her followers would marry the spouse, if they had it all to over again.

My answer was "No." I was wondering what my DB friends would answer?
Are you sure about that, Mizjd? I mean really? I know I would have. We had close to 20 great years, by both our admissions. I really did enjoy those times. Sure it got wonky at the end (no relation to Ms Wonka; just a term.) But that was a point in time and for reasons I can't really explain.

I see a few things though. You're tired. Reasonably so I should think. Two jobs and raising a family. That'll wear you down both physically and emotionally. Watch for that and try to take care.

But it is having an effect on you. You don't have the patience with some of your feelings. The other is that you're rightfully questioning how you are with him. Given all that has gone on, the OW, etc. I'd think that's long overdue, my dear.

In my case, my W cheated and ran off and married the OM all while being very nasty. I never posted it all, but she was continues to be quite nasty when she gets a chance. Even through all of that, I knew something was "wrong" or "going on" with her. And I felt compassion more than anger. There has been some anger to be sure but a person can only take just so much without some anger.

I've found the anger to be helpful but also to mask some other feeling in many cases. Not always. There was some justified anger that no other feeling would suffice for. But often it was something else I had to dig a bit for. Perhaps that would be the same for you?

The anger and tired come together to "help" bring about change. That's it's purpose in the bigger picture. Some of that change is figuring out who you are and what your boundaries are. In your case, not in the heat of anger but over time.

I can tell that this situation won't go on forever. You won't let it. At some point, a change will be made and things will go one direction or the other.

I missed the part about your son. Is he in counselling for the anxieties?

AJ


"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter" MLK
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Today I am wise, so I am changing myself."
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Job:I'm very sorry to read about S20 and what he is going through. I can imagine that he is extremely scared of what lies ahead and rightly so. I'm keeping him in my prayers.

I apologize for not making it clear that S20 is not actually physically ill. He has anxieties. But he definitely needs some prayers!

I wish your D19 all the best, but I think she needs to step back and wait a bit before even thinking about marrying this guy. I hope she wises up and soon.

I agree. She is wildly impulsive and has made some damaging choices in her 19 years. I recognize that she has to travel her own path, just sorry she has chosen such a dangerous route.

S17 sounds like he's still on an even keel and doing okay.

Ss17 are remarkably well adjusted young men. They are the flip side of their elder siblings.

I do have to wonder what is up w/the laundry. It appears that there are a few of them that do laundry. I wonder if it's soothing to them to hear the washing machines and dryers running and just knowing that there's not a lot of thought into sorting, etc. My mlcing friend was doing laundry every day! LOL!

How are the in-laws doing these days? What about you? How are you doing?

The in-laws are better. MIL still has bad days from time to time but overall has improved.

I am doing ok. I have some swelling in my feet and legs that is bothersome and am considering a doctor visit for that. (Now that we have insurance lol.) I suspect it is my age and weight and the result of working retail for many years. I think I'll try some compression socks for a bit and see what effect they have.

Regarding the weight, H got me a treadmill for Christmas. (This is another part of what I see as his "trying". I have been asking for a treadmill for years.) I have been faithfully using it and my waistband is showing just a small improvement smile I actually love working out on a treadmill so this is a happy spot in my days. Other than that, not too much outward development. I am still working both jobs. Wonderfuljob is still pretty wonderful. Fastfoodland is ok, I like my coworkers and being that my shifts are just a few hours and only 2 days a week the whole thing is ok.

Inwardly, I am striving toward more and more detachment. The light I see H in right now is not a flattering one for him (despite the laundry!) I feel I am in a bit of a holding pattern at the moment, trying to sort out what will be the best course of action for me - and for the kids. I am working on forgiveness and am purposefully developing an "attitude of gratitude". Because I do really have so very much to be grateful for (including you Job smile and all the wonderful posters here on DB!) I am "accentuating the positive, eliminating the negative" and hoky/trite/cliche as that may sound, it makes a difference. I highly recommend it!!


Portia:Awesome to see your post Jaye!

Your H is trying. Lordy, can they confuse us any more? But good for you for not letting it throw you for too much of a loop.

I am a sucker for any animal in distress, so I am very proud of you for sneaking the kitty-cats in. My cat is so pampered, it is ridiculous. That little girl is in there Jaye, she just does things a little differently these days, that is all.

Do you think that laundry is like a Lady MacBeth sort of thing? A guilty sort of "out damned spot?" Wash away the sins? In my infrequent contacts with Skippy, he said more than once that his favourite part of his new apartment was the insuite laundry. And that he did laundry just for fun. So there is another one for the MLC play book, beware clean laundry!

You may be on to something here! I thought maybe it was a way of the MLCer taking control of a part of their environment?

Take care!

You too smile

willbewell:omg, my h would catch up laundry on the weekends. he'd spend half the day. Folded so pristine!
he didn't like my just get it done method...didn't seem to remember that the laundry was not the only chore...

I so hear you on this! H wanted to know "what is that basket of clothes in front of the dryer?" I told him the clothes were clean but I had not had time to hang/fold them. "Oh! Well you see, I don't start laundry unless I know I'll have time to completely finish the job." (Internal Jaye "Why you sanctimonious pr!ck!!" External Jaye "Yes, that's a good plan. Bye now, gotta go to work.")


of course, I would thank him...

I thank H, but not effusively. A long time ago, when the kids were little I came home to find H cleaning the house. I was floored, stunned, amazed. And enthusiastically thanked H.

Who told me he "Only did it so you would see it can be done and isn't that hard." I'm not sure if that comment would offend anyone else, but it was a sucker punch for me. It still upsets me now lol, and its been over 15 years.

Well, that was the first and last time H "helped" (or showed me his superiority) in household matters until recently. So, I'm keeping the thanks pretty low key. For the past comments and because too, why should I find it remarkable that a husband helps out with household chores? I mean, for my H in particular it is indeed fairly remarkable, but it shouldn't be.


AJM Quote:MWD had a FB post asking if her followers would marry the spouse, if they had it all to over again.

My answer was "No." I was wondering what my DB friends would answer? Are you sure about that, Mizjd? Yes.I mean really? Really. I know I would have. We had close to 20 great years, by both our admissions. I really did enjoy those times. AJ, I am very genuinely glad that you had 20 great years. I think we had maybe, maybe, 2. H's affairs began at the 4 year mark.His attitude and nastiness predated the affairs by about a year and escalated (with periods of calm interspersed) since then. Sure it got wonky at the end (no relation to Ms Wonka; just a term.) (Lol, what a DB twist that would be!!) But that was a point in time and for reasons I can't really explain.

I see a few things though. You're tired. Yes, very. And guess what?! This makes H mad. If I fall asleep on the couch he tells me I disgust him. Reasonably so I should think. Two jobs and raising a family. That'll wear you down both physically and emotionally. Watch for that and try to take care. I thank you for your insight and concern smile (See the gratitude comments in my response to Job ^)

But it is having an effect on you. You don't have the patience with some of your feelings. The other is that you're rightfully questioning how you are with him. Given all that has gone on, the OW, etc. I'd think that's long overdue, my dear.

In my case, my W cheated and ran off and married the OM all while being very nasty. I never posted it all, but she was continues to be quite nasty when she gets a chance. Even through all of that, I knew something was "wrong" or "going on" with her. And I felt compassion more than anger. There has been some anger to be sure but a person can only take just so much without some anger. I am sorry you had to go through this. Believe me when I say I know how much that hurt. And I debate this very topic all the time. Is something wrong with my H? I think there probably is. Knowing this, I ask myself, what is the right thing to do? What is the ethical thing? And I haven't figured all that out yet. But I do know that allowing another person, even a damaged person, to mistreat me is not the "right" thing. (How'd you like that Jaye-go-to-al-anon folks?) I have changed some of my own behaviors, the "enabling" behaviors. I have changed my perspective; realized that despite being so-called by H, I am not actually the root of all evil. Realized that I am worthy of love, respect and kindness regardless of my achievements (or lack thereof) and regardless of whether or not I fall asleep on the couch. But I can make all these changes and still remain vulnerable to hurt. Frankly it doesn't make me feel good to be called disgusting for being tired - or putting on a sweatshirt. (My being cold also disgusts H.)

I've found the anger to be helpful but also to mask some other feeling in many cases. Not always. There was some justified anger that no other feeling would suffice for. But often it was something else I had to dig a bit for. Perhaps that would be the same for you? I am not sure I follow this bit. I think you are saying you see me being angry - which I am. Justified or not. You feel my anger is masking another feeling? I don't know. Maybe. I will have to think on this.

The anger and tired come together to "help" bring about change. That's it's purpose in the bigger picture. Some of that change is figuring out who you are and what your boundaries are. In your case, not in the heat of anger but over time. My anger isn't very heated any more. Actually its more cold. Its more of wanting to get away from H. Many things preclude getting geographically away right now. But there is a lot of pain connected to H for me.

I can tell that this situation won't go on forever. You won't let it. At some point, a change will be made and things will go one direction or the other. I agree. If there's anything to be learned from this whole experience it is that nothing lasts forever. There will be a planetary realignment, a seismic shift etc and changes will come.

I missed the part about your son. Is he in counselling for the anxieties? S20 was on Paxil for about a year and a half which seemed to ease things for him. I am urging him to pursue counseling. Thanks for asking!

Thanks to everyone for stopping by. It means a lot to me. Part of my new-me resolution is to make more connections with people. And I have started reaching out to a few old friends, working on turning them into current friends. But I have no wish to dump all this, this Jaye/H-trauma-drama on them. And if I did, they wouldn't understand it the way DBers can and do. So I am truly grateful for this board and for the people who connect with me here. You make a difference!

Love,

Jaye


Me 46 H 56
M 22 yrs
S22, D20, Twin Ss18

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What you stop.
And what you reinforce.
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MizJ,

I wan't surprised to read your post that you may not have chosen to marry him again, if you could do it all again. I can remember you saying that even before this MLC business, he wasn't quite the right man for you and hadn't been for many years. But with young children, choices are limited.

In my case, I would have done it all again, maybe a little differently, maybe I would have been a little more brave, but I would have. Not that I think those things would have made a difference in the end (or at least I know that NOW) but we had a good realtionship. One I miss every day.

Quote:
But I do know that allowing another person, even a damaged person, to mistreat me is not the "right" thing. (How'd you like that Jaye-go-to-al-anon folks?) I have changed some of my own behaviors, the "enabling" behaviors. I have changed my perspective; realized that despite being so-called by H, I am not actually the root of all evil. Realized that I am worthy of love, respect and kindness regardless of my achievements (or lack thereof) and regardless of whether or not I fall asleep on the couch.


Spot on, Jaye. You are NOT disgusting, revolting, evil, one-eyed, fuzzy haired or whatever H has accused you of. Even he knows it. This is not a way to treat someone else. Full Stop. Period.

Took some time to get there, didn't it? Did for me, too. Blamed myself for everything until I realized that none of my "sins" deserved the retaliation they got back. I cringe when I see the newbies who are frantically cleaning the house, losing weight or doing whatever their partners have said they needed to fix. I cringe because it makes no difference and really, it never did. Sorry my thighs weren't perfect, of course you had to be cruel to me and cheat on me! I am past buying any of that.

MizJ, I am so sure that you will make a gazillion friends! I certainly count you as one of mine!

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Quote:
I cringe when I see the newbies who are frantically cleaning the house, losing weight or doing whatever their partners have said they needed to fix. I cringe because it makes no difference and really, it never did.


Hi Portia, this is correct, but you know, some of the changes I did in the beginning were actually really good for me. I guess the VALID ones I kept, the others, upon examination, fit into your description.

Maybe it is a process that the LBS has to go through initially, and thereby figure out what is real, and not real. And figure out who they really want to be.

Just my 2.5 cents. smile


In the depths of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer. - Albert Camus

Uncertainty is the very condition which impels people to unfold their powers.-Eric Fromm

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Quote:
I cringe when I see the newbies who are frantically cleaning the house, losing weight or doing whatever their partners have said they needed to fix. I cringe because it makes no difference and really, it never did.


Let's tell 'em it'll only make a difference if they clean our houses too! wink

Ok, I'm sending myself to stand in the corner for that one...


M: A really long time.
Crisis: 5 years.
She's still worth it.

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J, let me just say to start that you are right in that you are worthy and that no one should be mistreated ever, crisis or not.

I agree with AJ, in that I think anger propels us forward. The hope is that there will come a time when you can let the anger go because holding onto it saps your energy.

At some point, when the hurt and anger and pain outweigh the obstacles needed to ovecome to move forward, you will figure out what you want.

As far as the changes go, they should never be for the spouse. They should always be for you. I used what my xh said as a starting point, although truthfully he never gave me any concrete reasons. Took what little he did say, looked at it, changed what I agreed with, tossed the rest.

Then I looked inside, looked at people I admired. Decided who I wanted to be.

And FY, you are always in the corner. LOL!

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Hellooooo DBers!! smile

I hope everyone is doing good as can be.

Things are status quo here in Jaye -land.

H is up at his parents smile (This translates to "vacation for Jaye") Things have been.... uneventful between us. He continues to do laundry. I can see him making an effort to speak to me a little differently, less authoritarian-like. And, here's the kicker of the week, he got me a Valentine's gift and card. The gift is an animated bear that sings. The card says "Happy Valentine's Day" on the front, "Love you" inside and he wrote "Jaye" over the "Love you" and "H" underneath. He gave this to me just past midnight on Valentine's Day, as he was leaving to go to his parents. For years Valentine's Day went unobserved because "Married people don't have to do that."

And this year I finally decided that THIS married person was no longer observing... and then he gets me a gift. Lol. Life is funny.

I haven't of course asked about OW, but I do know he still E-mails her. So, to quote Shania Twain, "That Don't Impress Me Much". ($25 in Valentines silliness certainly ASTONISHES me though!)

And he's shared that he feels lost. That he doesn't know who he is anymore. And I am doing my best to validate what he says. Oh but here's a funny, and I had to really bite my tongue hard. H "called in sick" for Friday so he could have an extra day at his folks. This deception seems to be bothering H a bit. He made sure to tell S20 (who also works there) not to spill the beans. Then H called me to tell Ss17 to be sure not to mention to their friend-who's-father-works-there that H wasn't sick but instead went out of town. I said "this calling in sick thing seems to be bothering you."

And that perpetually unfaithful H o'mine says "I hate to lie, and I hate to be caught in a lie."

I managed to squeak an "Oh. I see."

Oh, and the pizza place has been indefinitely paused. H's mother and D29 from M1 told him it wasn't a great idea at the same time funding became an issue. H texted me his decision and I responded with "I understand why you made that choice. I am sorry it didn't work out."

H, "Well it should have been done years ago!"(As in, when he first became involved with current OW which NATURALLY would have negated their relationship but because I didn't want to run the pizza place and wasn't "supportive" he OF COURSE had to get involved with OW)... another tongue bite... and I responded "Maybe so"

S20 is still wrestling with his anxieties. Currently manifesting in imagined brain tumors. He has gotten another prescription for Paxil, but is waiting until after his 21st birthday to begin it because he wants to drink on his birthday and fears the interaction of drug/alcohol. I continue to urge him to seek counseling and have stopped being his looker-upper. (Times past he would have me look up symptoms of whatever was bothering him so that I could "diagnose" his presented symptoms and confirm/deny his fears. But I've told him this is unhealthy and he cannot continue to use me as a crutch.)

D19 is still in MI with the less-than-desirable BF. I have stopped paying her phone bill.

(Look at me go! Expecting people to take care of themselves, my oh my.)

Ss17 have begun to show signs of senioritis. Which is unfortunate because we've had so much snow and snow-days that I think they may go to school through July lol.

And Jaye!?!

Just trucking along. I finally made the step to tell fastfoodland that I'm available Friday nights. I am still working on pulling away. Because sometimes the ease of life with H scares me. Because if I turned off the knowledge of the As, and shrugged at the nastiness, then I could see the current sitch continue indefinitely. H has begun to sprinkle phrases like "in a few years we will..."

And I cannot allow myself to settle for the crumbs H offers. Even with his trying, and I know that he really is making an effort, its not enough. Our M is hollow, shallow. And I can't see H as anything other than someone who has mistreated me - which makes him unappealing to me.

So I'm looking to pick up an extra shift. (Not to mention that we need the money... smh... never seem to get caught up, sigh) And I'm looking to rock the boat a little, shake up our work, dinner, tv, bed routine before it lulls me into acceptance.

Now I'm morose. Yuck.

So, I'll leave you with a joke.

Do you know why the ocean roars?



.... because it has crabs on it's bottom! laugh

~~Peace~~

Jaye


Me 46 H 56
M 22 yrs
S22, D20, Twin Ss18

You teach people how to treat you by what you allow.
What you stop.
And what you reinforce.
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Welcome back Jaye!
It's been a while, but things do sound like they are status quo in your area.

Oh! My! A Valentine's card and a gift card. What got into him? LOL! Well, at least he's still doing laundry! LOL!

He sounds like he does feel guilty about calling in sick to his job. Is he on thin ice w/them for the about of time he's been away? I had to laugh about his comment to you about hating to lie. That is priceless.

I'm sorry about the pizza place, but it's good that his mother and daughter spoke up and told him what they think about the deal. Of course you are to blame for him not doing it sooner in life. Yes, the man is lost and is trying to find his compass, but it will take a long time to for him to figure out that happiness comes from within.

I'm sorry to hear that S20 is still wrestling w/his anxieties. I do hope that he can settle down just a bit and enjoy his life. When is his 21st birthday? If it's a ways away, he needs to think about getting on them now. It's time for him to learn about his situation on his own and not expect mom to diagnosis his issues for him. Mom you are the best, but it's difficult for him to let you go as a crutch and that may create more anxiety if he fears you are letting go.

Good for you about not paying your D19's phone bill. Time for her to learn how to stand on her own two feet and I'm sure she'll do just fine. However, don't be surprised if she returns home in the next 6 months. I can't see that relationship working out for very long.

As for S17, I can relate to all of the snow and possibly having to go later into the school year to make up days. We've got a number of days here to make up as well. Has the school board recommended the students going during spring break, etc? That's what our kids are doing. They are in school today, which normally would be a holiday for them and their spring break has been reduced by at least 2 days.

You sound good and on an even keel. Don't wear yourself out w/working and then coming home and trying to maintain your place. I do hope that you are carving out some time for you, i.e., to do something special for yourself. At least w/your h away for a few days, you can enjoy the peace and quiet.

Please take care of yourself.


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The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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Job! smile How nice of you to stop by.

Is he on thin ice w/them for the about of time he's been away?
I am not sure. He hasn't missed time for quite a while actually.

Of course you are to blame for him not doing it sooner in life. Yes well, that goes along with me being the root of all evil, don't ya' know? wink I'm just impressed with myself that I didn't "take the bait" when he threw it out. I have nothing to "defend" myself to him over regarding this issue. He is entitled to his opinion and me to mine.
Yes, the man is lost and is trying to find his compass, but it will take a long time to for him to figure out that happiness comes from within. Agreed.
When is his 21st birthday?
Friday, the 21st.
It's time for him to learn about his situation on his own and not expect mom to diagnosis his issues for him. Mom you are the best, but it's difficult for him to let you go as a crutch and that may create more anxiety if he fears you are letting go. That is my goal. And yes, my decision to stop "looking things up" for him did not make him happy. But, making him happy isn't my job. That's his job. And its high time he start working on it, on himself, so he can have a life.
However, don't be surprised if she returns home in the next 6 months. I can't see that relationship working out for very long. I would be surprised if it takes that long!
Has the school board recommended the students going during spring break, etc?
They are going today, which had been scheduled off. And I believe they've lost 1 of their 2 spring break days. (They only get Good Friday and Easter Monday (is that a thing?) off) Beyond that they start tacking on days to the end of the school year.
I do hope that you are carving out some time for you, i.e., to do something special for yourself.
That's why I'm here! My computer died so H's is the only way for me to spend time on DB. And today I get the bonus of H being away AND having the day off wonderfuljob. (That would be a good name for you...btw.)

Alrighty. Further developments.
One of H's long standing self-stories has been his conception. The legend goes that his parents, who already had 3 girls (twins and then a singlet 2 years later)desperately wanted a boy. So they consulted books and doctors on the best technique and 7 years after the singlet voila their prayers were answered and H was born.

Last night, I get the following text.
Found out that I was not planned but a simple mistake. Like "singlet sister".
I respond, What?!
Yes, I was an accident.
I ask, What about all the "we wanted a boy so we made one" stories?
Just stories I guess. Apparently they made the mistake of letting Singlet Sister know at a younger age and didn't repeat with me because she took it so badly.
Well YES of course she took it badly! Honest to god. Your parents are something else.
Are you going to watch Downton Abbey?
Yes. And I'm going to think unkind thoughts of your parents the whole time.
No. They make mistakes. It was a slip tonight, not a deliberate comment.
I understand that you do have to defend them. I know that. I don't even want to get into it with you regarding them. Sorry. I lost my temper.
You're angry because you think my state of mind is fragile enough without the input of that knowledge.
That's part of it, yes.
It is upsetting lol and I'm not sure why.
Its upsetting because above all else parents have the job of making sure their kids know they are WANTED. It was HORRIBLY SELFISH of your parents to "let that slip". If they hadn't made such a big lying deal out of the whole thing all along. They just took a tenet of your "self" and shattered it.
Yes well the story was a spark my whole life until now. So the saying the truth shall set you free is bunk.
The TRUTH should have been told all along.
I don't know what to say. I'm too old to have it bother me. I should be too strong willed to let it weaken me.
>>At this point the whole restraint, the "not getting into it" re H's parents? Gone.<< At the risk of alienating you, I'll share another truth with you. Your parents are not nice people. They didn't treat you or your sisters well, and still don't. That "I should be strong" stuff is yet more garbage that your parents have gifted you with. Its part of why you are lost right now. Because you've never learned to feel.
They have a lot of close friends who respect and care for them. They grew up in a different time in different circumstances.
No excuse. I can introduce you to scads of people their generation who do not treat their family that way.
But not from the same social standing or period of time and place. I'm lost because I gambled my life away. I took the risks and now I'm paying for it with nothing to fall back on.
That sounds like a reference to your financial/professional life? If you need to tell yourself that about your parents, if you believe that, fine. But don't expect me too.
I watch SIL and D29 with their kids and I see two wonderful parents. They/she didn't get it from me.
Your issues with your kids and your wives/girlfriends are patterned after your parents. Do you see that?
No, I don't see that nor do I understand the comment.
I'm not saying disown them or don't love them. I'm just saying they haven't done you any favors regarding emotional health.
Maybe not.
Your parents have had and continue to have strained relationships with their children. Yes?
Yes.
And their children, you and your sisters, have strained relationships with their children, yes?
Yes, I suppose. But hopefully not with (our)my twins.
Hopefully not with any of your kids. You work at this, I know you do. I'm proud of how you try. Doesn't mean things are perfect, but you TRY. So do you see how your parents parenting pattern is copied by you and your sisters?
No, I think we're worse.
Better or worse arguable. But variations on the original pattern.
I think I'm losing my mind.
On the contrary, I think you may finally be ready to find your mind.
No, I mean I think other forces are dulling it and my memory recall.
Stress and depression have that effect. But speaking of recall, despite what your mother says NOW about her marriage - it hasn't been a great marriage. And NONE of their children have had successful marriages. So, another pattern repeats.
What patterns will our children repeat? Omg.
I know. Scary thought.
Yes.

There. Now that I've shared that I feel much better. H is one sad and broken puppy. I hope he can see his way through that one day. For me, while this development made me angry because I believe his parents were/are cruel, it feels more distant. More "other" than past exchanges. More detached I guess. I want to say to H "Look! See? Look at it from this perspective." But if he doesn't or can't, then so be it. It's too bad, but it's just the way it is. He'll remain stuck trying to please the unpleasable parents, failing them and failing himself. But he has to work all that out on his own.

Off to errands and chores. Take care DBers smile


Me 46 H 56
M 22 yrs
S22, D20, Twin Ss18

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Hey MizJ,

Like it or not, parents have a great deal to do with our upbringing and the way we turn out.

Sometimes things happen to us which allow us to look at ourselves and look within and make some changes to our behviours. For example, I did not come from an affectionate family (slight understatement here) but I have learned since BD that love, in any form, is work and that some folks do need the "mushy stuff" every once in awhile.

Sounds like your H needs to learn some of those lessons for himself. And as lost as he is, I can actually empathize. Know what my father said to me the other day? "I know you work lots of hours but I don't know if you work hard." Now, my father and I actually get along well for the most part, but warm and fuzzy he is not. Yet, even after celebrating my third 35th birthday, there is still something in me that reacts to statements like that. I have sacrificed quite a bit for my career, including paying my way through university and graduate school, so a slight on my work ethic cut.

Long ago, that comment would have earned a sarcastic comment back but I have learned not to take the bait. He will not change, so I must.

I hope your H comes to realize that he can still love his parents but do not necessarily have to agree with them or their parenting methods. I very much believe that this is part of becoming an adult. You have given your H something to think about and that is good, maybe some of it will seep in.

Hope everything else is going well for you, my friend!

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Hello Portia smile

And other interested parties.

I am not having a good day today. No huge reason. Did have a brief conversation with H last night.

H: "Why aren't you more responsive sexually?"
J: "Because you have a girlfriend. That takes the emotion out of sex for me, and without that love and intimacy I guess I'm not interested."
H: "I don't have a girlfriend."
J: "You have someone in your life you value more than me. Someone you have told me you are in love with. Someone you won't stop communicating with. Whatever label you prefer, all that adds up to a girlfriend to my perspective."
H: "You're ridiculous."

Pulls me in to spoon. After a few minutes I move away.
H: "Now what?"
J: "That's not working for me tonight."
H: "Fine. Bleep it all then."

This morning H was still mad at me.

And I don't know how I am. Very sad. The tears are back. I hate the tears. I am amazed at how H rationalizes his continuing R with OW. And I am dismayed.

smirk


And, true to exposure to insanity, I begin to wonder if I am the crazy one here. If I have the "wrong" idea about M. I suppose ultimately there is no wrong and right; its whatever the interested parties agree to. But I don't agree...

Sigh. Had to vent. And now lunch is over;back to work.

Take care DB world.

~Jaye~


Me 46 H 56
M 22 yrs
S22, D20, Twin Ss18

You teach people how to treat you by what you allow.
What you stop.
And what you reinforce.
~~~~~~~
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Jaye,
I'm so sorry that things aren't good right now. You were very honest w/him and yet, he's still denying what is going on in his life.

I do hope that you can find a little ray of sunshine to cheer you up just a bit. I wish that I had a magic wand and could wipe all of this sadness and misery from all that post here.

Please take care of yourself. I worry about you.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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Please take care of yourself. I worry about you.

Thank you Job. That's really so very nice. I feel adrift sometimes, you know?


Me 46 H 56
M 22 yrs
S22, D20, Twin Ss18

You teach people how to treat you by what you allow.
What you stop.
And what you reinforce.
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Dear Jaye -

I'm sorry you are having a bad day. Your H is in such denial, and still completely insensitive towards you.

Your feelings matter too.

You have every right not to want to be intimate with him. Don't let his mind games fool you. If he wants to be mad, let him. After all he has and continues to put you through, that's just too bad.

Hope you have a better day. You have lots of people that care about you smile


Bomb January 2012 - doesn't feel the same about me

~ "There is nothing love cannot face; there is no limit to its faith, hope, and endurance."
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Jaye,

Hon, I am sending you the biggest (((hug))).

One of these days, those truth darts have to sink in. And I happen to agree with you. I am not a "lovey-dovey" person to begin with and when I allow someone to touch me, it is on my terms. I remember Skippy trying to hug me at the airport and I could almost not bear to touch him or have him touch me. Of course, he made me feel guilty that "after 18 years, I wouldn't even hug him". At the time, it worked. Now that I am so far away from that, my mind screams: and exactly how did he respect that 18 year relationship?

Let the tears come, my friend. They are cathartic. They will eventually dry.

Lots of love your way.

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Hey Portia and TVS

laugh Thank you for stopping by!!

I'm at the end of my lunch break and so this post may not be too well organized.

H is doing something new.

It has been about 10 years since saying ILY to H got me the response I might want. (Which is ILY2) I would get silence, "I love me too", Thank You or no you don't. We had a discussion about it several years ago and H explained he didn't like me saying ILY to him, that ILY was said too often in his opinion and should only be said if one was FEELING love. (The whole FEELING LOVE... don't get me started...)

For about the last 6 years or so I rarely said ILY, and stopped altogether after BD. Ha ha, now, last 2 nights in a row H has said ILY to me as we prepare for sleep.

The first night caught me totally off guard and I responded incredulously "You love me?!?" (I did manage not to snort.) Followed by... "thank you".

Last night, dang if he didn't do it again. I wasn't so totally off guard, but I don't really have an answer for him. I don't want to talk about it. No R talks if possible is my new motto. I know OW is still in the picture, and I'm not prepared to "explore my feelings" regarding H and the M until she's gone. Frankly, H's decision to not drop OW combined with the 7 or 14 or 20 OW revelation motivated me to bind and gag my heart before locking it in a box and burying it somewhere foreboding. Where I hope it dies. (Not to be melodramatic... wink )

Hopefully this new habit is over.

Oh, and, btw, we have our first MC appointment on the 16th...

So... thoughts?

crazy


Me 46 H 56
M 22 yrs
S22, D20, Twin Ss18

You teach people how to treat you by what you allow.
What you stop.
And what you reinforce.
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Jaye!

How great to hear from you!

I was actually thinking of you today while I was watching some incredibly funny Soul Mate Schmoopie videos (see You Tube) and thought that your sense of humour would appreciate these.

And here you are. And going to marriage counselling. How on earth did you manage that? Being in the middle of a blizzard in April kinda makes the expression "when hell freezes over" more of a reality.

How do you feel about going? I have never been (although Skippy used to tell me about his therapist but I immediately declared her useless in my mind when he said to me that the whole problem was that he "handled things wrong". Ye-ah, you think?) I hope you have a good one and maybe some of the other folks who have been through it can offer some pointers.

Do drop by and tell us how it went and what you learned. I know that you have been unsure of your feelings for H for some time now - fully justified - I wonder if this will help you to make up your mind? Obviously H is not going anywhere!

Have a fabulous weekend!

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Portia smile Thank you for your kindness.

The MC was rather a spur of a moment thing. I was arranging the insurance regarding S21 and his anxieties and while I was on the phone thought "Oh what the heck..."

I am so undone by H's new behavior. I had prepared for many things, but not this. Him leaving in the middle of the night would possibly have been easier.

I will not have a M with an OW.

I don't know if H is genuine in his new found sentiment. My first thought is he's somehow sensing the distance and attempting to close the gap. On the surface nothing has changed.

I don't feel H's reawakening changes my intentions as long as OW is still connected. But it was easier to have my intentions when H was being crazy nasty. Now he's just crazy...

But there's zero trust. How could he possibly expect me to trust and believe him when he says ILY? (This would be part of the "crazy", because no rational person would expect that.)

And of course those other factors, like our children, like our struggling financial condition are still present.

H told me something today that made me think he is possibly truly evolving in some manner. H's sister wants to do a Christmas cruise with H's parents, H, H's sister (and possibly the other sister, but she is rarely liked...)

H's mom told him to hurry up and decide because "You know it could be our last Christmas together..."

Which is true. Its true for anyone, but they are in ill health so especially true for them. But as H told me this I mentally added it to the list of things I never want to say to my kids. I found it blatantly and distastefully guilt tripping.

And it was as if H read my mind. He said, "I wish she wouldn't use that on me. Doesn't she think I might want to see my family at Christmas too?" (Meaning me and our kids)

I did a goldfish impression for several seconds...lol.

So I feel lost all over again.

Not as bad as 2 years ago. But the footing I thought I'd found is suddenly slippery.

Now, evil Jaye enjoyed the Schmoopie! And evil Jaye had a flash that because H likes to email funny videos to OW... and evil Jaye knows H's email password...maybe evil Jaye should send the Schmoopie to OW on behalf of H? whistle

But rational doesn't-want-to-be-on-Jerry-Springer Jaye said no. That Jaye is SUCH a spoil sport...

Take care

~Jaye


Me 46 H 56
M 22 yrs
S22, D20, Twin Ss18

You teach people how to treat you by what you allow.
What you stop.
And what you reinforce.
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A lack of boundaries invites a lack of respect.
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MC tomorrow. H doesnt see why we have to go. He started an R talk this morning.

He still needs OW in his life. She is good for him. Its not hurting me, I need to just get over it.

I say it isnt good for him, and its costing him his marriage.

He tells me I don't know that. That doesn't even make sense. Im pretty sure that I do know....

And I know too that I can't do this much longer. This is a text H sent me today.

I think with someone like me you need to be able to endure. I don't have the ability to endure a lengthy relationship. And I have with you, and I give you all the credit for that.

I have to endure? That never came up in his proposal. Will you endure me?

Sigh. Feeling very low.

~ Jaye


Me 46 H 56
M 22 yrs
S22, D20, Twin Ss18

You teach people how to treat you by what you allow.
What you stop.
And what you reinforce.
~~~~~~~
A lack of boundaries invites a lack of respect.
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Quote:
He still needs OW in his life. She is good for him. Its not hurting me, I need to just get over it.


I'm sorry, but this almost made me laugh out loud. He just doesn't see why you're bothered by this? Why then do I suspect he would NOT be as sanguine if the shoe was on the other foot and YOU were carrying on an affair right under his nose???

It'll be interesting to see what happens in the MC - I'd like to see the counselor's response to that. make sure you share that part.

That being said - unless the counselor can get through to him that this is not ok or appropriate - it may well be time to allow him to feel the consequences of his actions. You are not a doormat and there's no reason to "endure" such inappropriate behavior - and it sets a bad example for your kids.

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kml: I'm sorry, but this almost made me laugh out loud. He just doesn't see why you're bothered by this?

I know, right? What kind of wife would be bothered by her H having an affair?

Just came from the first MC session.

I liked the doctor.

The doctor seemed to totally "get" why I don't appreciate H continuing his "friendship" with OW.

H did most of the talking. Last night, in discussion of the pending appointment H announced he wasn't going to talk at all. Lol, that'd be the day...

Dr. kept coming back to H with, "So, it's the H-show and Jaye is just a part of the scenery for you?"

H characterized OW as someone with "problems and issues". Revealed she is on "all sort of medications which she says make her brain vibrate." (What a gift that was to me lol. H might shoulda never said that... whistle)

H characterized me as an introvert with no friends. I broke in and said, "Wait. You told me just the other day that one of the main reasons you hang on to OW is because you have no friends. I however have friends. I have X, Y, Z and Q."

H says, "Q is not much of a friend."

Dr. "What's wrong with Q?

Jaye, "Q is not very attractive and so is not worthy according to H."

H "No, she's a total basket case. Not much of a friend!"

Jaye, "Q is a basket case? You're the one who has a gf with a vibrating brain and you call Q a basket case?!?"

(The Dr. laughed. Not sure if he was supposed to, but lol, who wouldn't?)

I cried several times, cause hey, its my strength. cry

And H's eyes were red by the end.

And we have 2 more appointments scheduled.

I feel pretty good right now. Nice to connect with a human being, male at that, who says what H is doing is not a good thing.

Do I think this is going to fix our M? I'd have to say probably not. H said in response to the suggestion of giving up OW "If it isn't this OW it will be somebody else." This is something I knew of course, but it was interesting to hear it from H.

But doesn't give me much desire to continue the M.

4 more free visits. Next one is Monday.

Take care all.

Don't let your brains vibrate too much laugh

~~Jaye


Me 46 H 56
M 22 yrs
S22, D20, Twin Ss18

You teach people how to treat you by what you allow.
What you stop.
And what you reinforce.
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A lack of boundaries invites a lack of respect.
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O.M.G. This ^^^ made me literally bust out laughing. How could the Dr. NOT laugh? I just love the 'vibrating brain' explanation. mizjjd - you seem to be dealing this very, very well. Keep going. You'll get through this! You are an inspiration.


Me 53, XH 57
M 20 (+1.5) years, no kids
BD June '13
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You actually let him talk to you like that? Here is where a truth dart would be good.


M-43 W-40
2D - 9 and 5

Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet a new life.

RECONCILED AND WISER
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mizjjd Offline OP
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Live Now, welcome to DB. You came aboard just as I was slowing down my posting here, so I haven't had a chance to meet you. I skimmed your sitch and am very sorry for your troubles. Not sure how inspirational I may be. You however seem to be an instinctive DBer so kudos to you!

Mr. Bond, which communication offended you?

Last night H told me what he thought of the session - which wasn't much. He felt the Dr. was "on my side". He was mad mad mad at me. One of the questions the Dr. asked me was if my interactions with H were "superficial". I said that to an extent yes, they are. Because I'm not about to be vulnerable to H while OW is present. While he's still in the "if not this one then another one" mind set.

H feels betrayed. (I see some irony here...) I am puzzled by this. I have never told H things were hunky dory. I have never pretended to be happy while secretly being miserable. Lol, I've been openly miserable... maybe not acting out on it constantly but its always been there. Sometimes H would see this and ask what was wrong. And I always told him. Each time it seemed to be a surprise to him - "Oh that? Still? Aren't you over that yet?"

H said on his way home from the session - we drove separately - that he thought about driving his car into an overpass support. I told him I have that same thought sometimes. I have even picked which mile marker would be the "best". H said I made his comment of no consequence because I said I'd had the same thought...?

So, in his anger there was no spooning. And about 1:30 AM my dog started barking. H hates my dog. Everyone hates my dogs new barking habit. I figured if I went downstairs and let the dog out and slept on the couch the dog would be quiet. It worked. And this morning, H "What was the reason for you not sleeping in the bed?" I told him it was the dog, and that because H was so angry with me I figured he could use the "space". H, "Well, you chose poorly again."

Sigh. We rode in to work together. Some R/OW talk. H is angry. H doesn't like to be told what to do. H didn't appreciate me pointing out that I do in fact have friends, while he does not. "At least you know you're better than me." "Therapy isn't going to do anything. It may be helping you but its causing me pain." (More irony... insert OW for therapy and I could say the same to him.)

Sigh sigh. Maybe I should just give up. Entirely.

And H is my ride home... hope I don't have to walk... its like 20 miles...

But it is a beautiful day...

smile ~ Jaye


Me 46 H 56
M 22 yrs
S22, D20, Twin Ss18

You teach people how to treat you by what you allow.
What you stop.
And what you reinforce.
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I could not stop laughing at that “vibrating brain” comment for a few min. No wonder the doctor could not help himself to laugh too.

It seems that your H has some kind of fantasy in his head that he wants to live in and doesn’t want to give it up. Are you sure this counseling is doing you any good? Looks like one more reason for him to be angry at you. I almost want to say that the best therapy for your H would be a reversed psychology. Everyone needs to tell him how awesome the OW is that he cannot give her up under any circumstances, because she is going to fix all his problems. But at the same time you need to turn around and walk away from him.


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I don't know if the counseling is good bad or indifferent.

All I do know is that continuing as we were was not good. And it could have continued indefinitely. H does not want to separate. He wants OW and me as well. I am willing to leave if I have to, but I don't yet want to. But I do want things to change. I view the counseling as a gamble.

A friend on my Fb posted something about The Golden Rule and how we all should follow it. Another friend countered with, "We already do. What you may not realize is how much self-hate there is in the world."

Something to think about... especially for me and my sitch. H does not like himself and I believe his behavior to me is a reflection of how he thinks of himself. Even the accusations of character "flaws" he makes are actually more a description of him. In the car he brought up how he thinks I am boring. I had to ask. "I'm boring? How, exactly?" He says I never want to do anything. This is very not true. And I called H on it. I asked him what it was I was stopping him from? Because all we do is work and tv, unless there's a kid's sporting event. Many times I have asked, and initiated going out. For a drink, for dinner, to listen to a local band etc. H hates it. Does nothing but complain.

This is a small example, but it is significant to me because I now realize how much of H's complaints about me are really complaints about himself.

I'm hoping that H's anger over the counseling is possibly a good thing. Maybe it will prompt him to confront, instead of ignore, his actions.

Time will tell I suppose.

Cheers,

~~ Jaye


Me 46 H 56
M 22 yrs
S22, D20, Twin Ss18

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Jaye

I am unbelievably proud of you. You are in a situation that you do not like and you are making an effort to change it.

You are right about your H. Somewhere along the line for whatever reason, he did not learn proper people or coping skills. I actually see quite a bit of my father in your H. We love them. But sometimes we don't like them very much. And sometimes we run out of slack to cut them for their abuses.

I am glad you went to counselling. If nothing else the therapist validated that you were not as nuts as you feel. That your H's fantasy of keeping his comfortable world intact - OW and all - is as delusional as it sounds.

Do something different. See what happens.

And keep going to counselling even if your H does not want to attend.

Lots and lots of love!!

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Jaye

I am unbelievably proud of you.
Wow Portia! Thank you for that. It means a lot to me. Thank you again. You are in a situation that you do not like and you are making an effort to change it. Yes, definitely not liking the situation. It has to change, one way or another.

You are right about your H. Somewhere along the line for whatever reason, he did not learn proper people or coping skills. I actually see quite a bit of my father in your H. We love them. But sometimes we don't like them very much. And sometimes we run out of slack to cut them for their abuses. Even understanding the "why" doesn't make the hurt stop. It may make it easier to deal with, but the pain still happens.

I am glad you went to counselling. If nothing else the therapist validated that you were not as nuts as you feel. That your H's fantasy of keeping his comfortable world intact - OW and all - is as delusional as it sounds.
Yes, this was very healing. I have received volumes of great support here, but having someone face to face to connect with does help.
Do something different. See what happens.

And keep going to counselling even if your H does not want to attend.

Lots and lots of love!!
I may continue, we'll see what happens. Love to you as well smile

Had our 2nd session Monday. A much calmer session, questions about the business that failed.

Tuesday on the way to S17A's track meet H says. "I heard from OW today. She texted me her current fears and the fact that her doctor is suggesting valium. I told her to take care of herself and not think about me. Not to think about needing to keep up our friendship, to focus on herself and her husband."

Telling me about his contacts is new. H doesn't feel he can cut ties completely because she is unstable and because he sees her as his only friend. But he tells me over and over that the feelings that were present in the beginning of their R have faded.

I am mulling all this. Not sure what to think, how to respond. I simply said "Thank you for telling me."

I still feel that the "No OW" policy needs to be maintained. But is he making progress? I don't like the idea of keeping her in the wings so to speak. I plan to ask the Dr. on our next visit if he sees this as progress, if my insistence on NO CONTACT with OW should be held.

I can't get past him hanging on to a R he knows threatens his M. It makes me feel un-valued. I feel his "deal" gives me as little as possible and is not much of a "deal" at all.

But you know what? I'm tired. Tired of the whole thing.

And now H has texted me that his mother has taken a turn for the worse...

And back to work I go.

Take care DB world.

~~ Jaye


Me 46 H 56
M 22 yrs
S22, D20, Twin Ss18

You teach people how to treat you by what you allow.
What you stop.
And what you reinforce.
~~~~~~~
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Portia,

I logged in today so I could visit your thread, which I did, but its locked and I can't leave you a message!!

So, hello Portia! I'm glad you are having better days. Please take care of yourself always.

Hugs,

~ Jaye smile


Me 46 H 56
M 22 yrs
S22, D20, Twin Ss18

You teach people how to treat you by what you allow.
What you stop.
And what you reinforce.
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Folks I feel I've found a new low, emotionally/mentally speaking.

There's been no new developments really, to cause this. Perhaps its just accumulation.

But its very dark in this hole I've fallen into.

I wonder if I am entering a crisis of my own...

Because just "leaving" seems so attractive, so feasible, so reasonable.

But its none of those things. Well, certainly not reasonable. I have kids, pets, home, job(s). And H too I suppose.

However I also have anguish, despair and fatigue. So much so that I just want to escape.

Counseling appointment Wednesday. Our third.

Good news. S21 has full time job. D19 has job.

And I'm off to work.

Take care.


Me 46 H 56
M 22 yrs
S22, D20, Twin Ss18

You teach people how to treat you by what you allow.
What you stop.
And what you reinforce.
~~~~~~~
A lack of boundaries invites a lack of respect.
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I'm sorry to hear that you are having some low emotional/mental times. I do think that what has happened is that they have accumulated and are now just hitting you. You've been a busy woman with family, jobs, etc. and it's all caught up with you.

The thoughts of leaving are very normal for us, especially when we have had to carry the load of responsibility and accountability for a long period of time. Are you taking any AD's? If not, this might be something you may need to look into because some of what you are describing may be symptoms of depression.

I am glad to see that your S21 has a full time job and your D19 has gotten a job. This should take some of the worry off your shoulders.

I do hope that your counselor can help you find a way to work with you on helping you climb out of that dark hole.

Please take care of yourself.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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Allow yourself time to grieve, schedule it if you need to - like 30 minutes after dinner, just go somewhere alone (even if it is just the bathtub) and cry, let it out. Journal - just writing it out helps to get some of it out of your system - if your pray - then pray and pray often for strength. I was praying probably 10 times a day or more in the beginning, and I was not someone who prayed until BD, I was agnostic and now i'm like one of those jail house converted - but it HELPS. Putting it in His hands takes some of the weight off your shoulders. Exercise as a release. Meditate, deep breathing exercises, yoga. You cannot ignore the grief and it will revisit you if you don't work through it. If you are going to counseling as a couple, see about going for yourself. Depression is a big part of grief (there's 5 stages in grief if you follow Dr. Elisabeth Kubler-Ross) and we go through all of them. There's Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Letting go, and Acceptance. Depression is a big part of stage 1 and stage 4. sorry I am rambling now, just gonna send a big hug your way. we're here for you!


Me - 42
exH - 56
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bomb dropped 1/6/14
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Mizjjd, I hit low points frequently. Usually I read back through my journal to see my good days and remember "me" or take a walk. I don't know much yet but I'm learning and what I keep hearing is "the sun will come out tomorrow" in a cute little Shirley Temple voice. Yes corney but I always smile!


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Jaye,

It was so nice to come here and see that someone has been looking for me - who doesn't need some sort of favour! I will open another thread, although there really isn't much to tell.

I am sorry for the down days. The down days for me at this point are actually a little harder sometimes than the down days I had closer to the beginning. I guess I can't help but think - aren't I OVER this already? For you, your H is always there, reminding you.

Of all of your reactions, running away is what I constantly feel like doing. But then, I lose the energy to actually do it. If you are able, maybe try to find a weekend to "run away" - stay in a local hotel, take a spa weekend or a mini-break of some sort.

I admire you Jaye. And I cannot wait to see the person you are meant to be - you went from shivering in your closet to holding down two jobs - one awesome one - and facing your decisions with a clear head.

Get the most that you can out of the counselling session. And then come here to laugh!!

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Focus on healing you. Hitting bottom is one way to start moving toward greater happiness :-)


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Job, TL72*, whytry, Portia and Oldtimer,

Thank you all for your kind words. You reminded me that this forum can be an oasis smile

I'm a bit more even now. The sensation I wrote about before was a truly awful one. It gave me a glimpse into what S21 deals with regarding his anxiety/OCD.

Portia, please keep posting here on occasion! Although we are only virtual friends you and many others have become a tangible part of my life. And probably of lives of those who never post but only follow along. I remember in the early days, I'd read through somebody's thread and they'd just vanish... Without even an indication of what direction they were heading. You have an unique situation Portia and have handled yourself so well. Amazing strength, grace and class. I'd bet a dollar more than one person has followed your journey and found solace. And probably more will do so in future times.

H and I have had 3 sessions now. The first one p!ssed H off because it was all about infidelity. The second one seemed ok to H, it was all about the business we lost. The third one was mostly about H's parents/sisters; some about "Tell me H, what do you do to make Jaye feel special?"

After the third session H said to me, "When do we start to talk about ME?"

Lol, I explained to H that this is "marital" counseling, therefor, by design, NOT ALL ABOUT H.

The sessions we've had so far have been free. H's insurance allows for 5 free sessions. I told H if he wants to continue therapy HE'S going to have to phone for authorization. It will be interesting to see how that plays out.

Lunch is ending, I don't have time to explain more. Hopefully will have a minute this weekend.

Thanks again to those who stopped by.

Take care,

~ Jaye


Me 46 H 56
M 22 yrs
S22, D20, Twin Ss18

You teach people how to treat you by what you allow.
What you stop.
And what you reinforce.
~~~~~~~
A lack of boundaries invites a lack of respect.
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Originally Posted By: mizjjd

But its none of those things. Well, certainly not reasonable. I have kids, pets, home, job(s). And H too I suppose.



Ok, I have to admit mizj, your last line here made me laugh.

Starting up counseling sounds hopeful! Wishing you and H all the best!


M: A really long time.
Crisis: 5 years.
She's still worth it.

Life is never made unbearable by circumstances, but only by lack of meaning and purpose. -Viktor Frankl
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hey hi-

just wanted to say hello and hang on man. it's awful i know- and some days i want to run away too. well, alot of days i want to run away frommy life and just begin over.

i have to remind myself that lonely somewhere new with no one - no how - probably wouldn't be so nice either. it's normal i think- how could we not want a new, sh iney, better, fun life again????? we're just humans - ri te.??

i hope you can shake yourself out of it okay- i find if i can just shake myself out of the house and walk - even if i'm storming around town top speed - i have to force myself- and i sometimes count and do stomach crunches to keep my mind from reeling around and thinking and thinking while i walk- it does help. even a sh ort walk- out of house- out out out- NOT THINKING. just a coping technique i use that works alot- it's just all about riding it stinking out isn't it?

it's awful- you've been doing this awhile tho, and you're entiteld to be f'ing tired and ground down into a stinking nub- BUT 0- ta da, you're still here, hyou're hanging on- you're doing good.

you can do this i think, we all can, think how highly we will regard ourselves after surviving thru these awful awful times, awful years, stinking unjust sitch...

ta da- we're gonna be like kissing our own reflection in the mirror - such will be our awe over our successes in just keeping alive and prevailing-

i know, i sound a bit nutty- but ho nestly- look what we've survived, accomplished, have come thru- and continue to plug away at- didja ever think you'd have the guts and gumption???? not me

you're wonderful of course- hang on=-

xxo

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Hi FY and Nero

smile Thank you so much for leaving me a note.

A quote I saw attributed to Robin Williams went something like this. "I used to think the worst thing in the world was ending up all alone. Now I know its ending up with someone who makes you feel all alone."

What to do, what to do, what to do?

H is embracing his new role as wonder-hubby. Except for that persnickety detail of the OW he'd deserve a t-shirt, or maybe a mug. He mutes the tv when I talk (gasp!) He waits for me to sit with him at the table. He has hung blinds on three windows!! (I told him 5 years was long enough to have tablecloths and blankets as window treatments. And the next day he brought home blinds - and hung them.)

But...but... but that don't impress me much.

And I don't know what to do with that. I know the man is TRYING. Really, he's 180 ed from where he was a couple years ago. His concession on OW is that "J you can read our messages whenever you want... just ask."

And, I don't want to sound childish, BUT I DON'T WANT THERE TO BE ANY TEXT MESSAGES TO READ.

And how long can he keep up this wonder-hubby routine anyway?

I can tell he expects me to be more excited at his new behaviors than what I have demonstrated so far. But ya' know, 20 times bitten...

So, weigh in here please. Do I need to give this more time? Will OW be deleted one day?

I'm so suspicious of his motivation. I feel he's trying to lull me into a hypnotic state so things can go back to our "normal".

And folks, I'll be damned if I'll ask to see his text messages. Just can't bring myself to do that. Not sure if I can explain, but its INSULTING. If he would like to share/remove his password, perhaps I would on occasion stroll through those texts and learn that just as he says its all innocence. But, I counter, for how long? For how long will it remain all innocence?

"I do love you" he says. I say nothing back.

Sign me bewildered as ever...

Take care,

~ Jaye


Me 46 H 56
M 22 yrs
S22, D20, Twin Ss18

You teach people how to treat you by what you allow.
What you stop.
And what you reinforce.
~~~~~~~
A lack of boundaries invites a lack of respect.
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Jaye,
What do you want to do? You already know that these "honey do" tasks are ways to earn kibbles from you and yes, to possibly lull you back into the web he has woven. He is very much aware that you could walk at any time and he also senses that you are about done w/him and his ow.

How would feel about telling him that you appreciate all of the things he's been doing recently, but you will not accept that the ow is still in the picture. She has to go. That a marriage w/three people in it will not work. If you were to do this, your h would be all huffy, angry and possibly leave...could you handle that? His leaving?

He's been cake eating for a very long time and you, and only you can determine when it's time to put the cake, plate, and fork away. As long as he's allowed to continue eating cake, he'll do it.

Jaye, you have some difficult decisions to make and I would sit quietly for a bit and allow the answers to reveal themselves. You will know when the time is right to do what needs to be done.

Sending you hugs today!


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Well, ya gotta like the recent behavior shift. Who wouldn't? It's better than a stick in the eye.

I say attempt to capitalize on it. Get what you can while the gettin' is good! Ask H for things. Start small and work your way up. The sky and your imagination are your only limits!

Remember to thank him along the way and to reward positive behavior.

You mention being suspicious, and rightfully so. Just don't let that hold you back from accepting positive things from H.

Be open to where this may lead... you never know.


M: A really long time.
Crisis: 5 years.
She's still worth it.

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I'm with FY.

In fact, send him over to my house and I'll give him a list of ToDo's!!!

Enjoy it. You deserve it. ;-)


"You know, it's times like these when I realize what a superhero I am." Tony Stark/Iron Man

“Focus on what you can do, then do it with all your heart.” Lois Wilson
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Quote:
And, I don't want to sound childish, BUT I DON'T WANT THERE TO BE ANY TEXT MESSAGES TO READ.


I don't blame you! This nonsense that you should just accept his OW is ...well...TOTAL BS!

I know you have stayed because of your twins still being in high school - are they graduating this year or next?

Let's face it - IF you had unlimited financial resources, you would have booted him out a long time ago, and he would probably have woken up out of his fantasy pretty quickly and come crawling back. But because of your financial situation and desire for stability for the kids, he's got you by the short hairs and is having his cake and eating it too.

You have an awful lot on your plate - your kids have a lot of special needs, and your H is just sucking up your energy and pulling it away from the kids, where it really needs to be.

There's no rule that says you have to put up with his bad behavior, or that you have to keep standing for a man who so blatantly disregards your needs. Just be smart and ask yourself about every decision "Will this get me closer to my goals?"

And take advantage of his current (probably short-lived) helpful mood to get EVERYTHING you need done around the house. If you DO end up divorcing and selling the house, it will be that much less you have to do to get it ready to sell. Even if you keep the house, it'll be that much nicer for you.

Sock away any money you can in any secret places you can. Try to get to the point where you COULD, IF and only IF you wanted, tell him that refuse to be in a triangle any longer and he has to leave. I'm not saying to do that - that's a decision only you can make. But wouldn't you feel a lot better if your ducks were in a row so that this WAS an option, if you wanted it?

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Job, FY, Lois and kml thank you all for stopping by. smile

It is so very nice to log in and find responses!

Job, I don't know what I want. I really truly don't. I know things I don't want. Right now I have a life defined by negatives.. lol. Would he get huffy if I said the ow has to go despite all the niceties? Possibly, maybe. Yesterday at counseling H turns to me and says "Any issues you feel you'd like to talk about?"

I told him the biggest issue is OW. That yes, there are other issues too, but that for me none of the others are deal breakers.

This always seems to be a surprise to H. He feels that because he says they are "past all that" that I should be fine with their "friendship".

FY, it is nice to have blinds, I must admit. And I don't miss doing laundry at all.

You mention being suspicious, and rightfully so. Just don't let that hold you back from accepting positive things from H.

Be open to where this may lead... you never know.


This is pretty much the crux of my feelings. Because I do know H is trying. In fact, he may be giving it all he's got right now. And I feel it is wrong to... to what? To ignore his offerings, to tell him they aren't good enough.

To tell him its too little too late.

And that folks, is exactly what I am afraid is the case. Lol, shoe is on the other foot, I'm nearly a WAS. Its going to take a lot of time and patience on H's part to fix what's been broken. I don't have enormous faith in him investing that much energy in "us", in me. Its been an awful, awful long time since he's wanted to connect with me.

A reconnection with OW in the wings isn't particularly appealing.

Then this morning on the way to work H says "It took me forever to figure out how to do it, but I removed the password from my phone." See, that's H trying. That's a concession. Probably took great effort, humility to do that.

But all I can say, in my head and heart, is "that's a start...maybe..."

And lunch is over.

Take care,

~~Jaye~~


Me 46 H 56
M 22 yrs
S22, D20, Twin Ss18

You teach people how to treat you by what you allow.
What you stop.
And what you reinforce.
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It does sound like he is trying. Likely doing the best he can. Since you're still in, (not done) why not attempt to guide him along into being the H you want? Wouldn't it be wonderful if he surprised you?!

He already knows OW is the main issue for you. Good job voicing that in your session!

I know my W has man friends that she tells me about, and I also know there is nothing inappropriate going on between them... she's very open about it, and they only have very intermittent contact... not the silly round the clock nonstop contact of a true EA or PA. We live together, I know these things. Your situation may vary, I have not kept up with the details of your sitch or H's relationship with OW.

Unless it's an absolute a deal breaker for you, maybe you could look at his texts occasionally. Or ask him questions about what they are talking about. (preferably right after their contact, when it is fresh) If he's serious he'll jump at the chance to open up to you, and you'll have a better sense of what's really going on. Then you'll have more facts to help guide your next move, whatever that may be.


M: A really long time.
Crisis: 5 years.
She's still worth it.

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I remember Wonka posting to Raine about being sort of a "mentor" role (on the down low, naturally) when they start trying and reconnecting... smile


In the depths of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer. - Albert Camus

Uncertainty is the very condition which impels people to unfold their powers.-Eric Fromm

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Well, Howdy-do DB world!
It seems like ages since I've been on, but its really only a couple months.

Updates.
S21 still at home, still occasionally "dying" but his anxieties haven't been uncontrolled of late. He briefly had a girlfriend. Briefly. Like, 5 days. Then she went back to her ex. S21 took it philosophically, and life goes on.

D19 still back at home. 33 yr old BF in jail for outstanding warrants. D19 kinda shrugs at the BF title for him. She may have a job - goes for a second interview this weekend. Fingers crossed.

S18A his team came in 4th place for State Track 4X400. He went to Florida on the school trip he couldn't go on last year because of a conflict with the State Meet of 2013. He had a great time and came home "talking" to a girl... He is going to U of Cincy this fall which is of course exciting and bittersweet... smile

S18B continues to work. Has new GF. Planning to go to U of Cincy in January.

and ... H.
H has a torn rotator cuff that Workers Comp doesn't wish to pay to repair. And for his newest trick, a week ago Sunday he passed out 3 times here at home. (I was at fastfoodland, the kids were sleeping, nobody witnessed this, nobody was there to help H which bothers him tremendously). The 3rd time he may have seizured because he managed to bite a chunk out of his tongue. He has been to the hospital and followed up with the family Dr. and had all the tests and... nothing.

And H's mom has been diagnosed with myelodysplastic syndrome, a sort of leukemia with a life expectancy of 2 months to a few years depending on which type she actually has. Finding out requires a bone marrow biopsy which MIL doesn't want to do.

Oh and OW still present as a text buddy. IDK details and I don't ask. And it matters to me less and less all the time. Not that I'm accepting it. Quite the opposite in fact. But I am accepting that it is what it is. He's a cheater and that's not ok. It has ended our marriage from my perspective. I am separated from my H although we live together...

But something I wanted to share here, especially for newbies. First, some background. H went to visit his parents this week and while there planned to see an old friend. He texted O.F. to arrange details of meet-up but O.F. declined to text ATM because he was visiting some friends and thought texting would be rude. Well, H was having none of that. Told O.F. in fairly decent terms to take a hike. But then H had second thoughts, and FBed O.F.'s wife kind of sort of attempting to make amends.
H texted me this and told me to log into his FB account to read what he and O.F.'s wife had exchanged.

H was trying to explain why he had over reacted to the text situation. He says to OFW.

Do you remember me. Do you know me. Would you think of me as the antisocial one. The quiet person in the room. Because that's me lately. I'd rather end relationships than make them. I don't like people or maybe I don't like me anymore. My wife thinks our meet up is more important to me because I'm in crisis mode and O.F. isn't.

Being in crisis mode is my wifes interpretation. Mine is a little different.

OFW asks, What is yours?

I don't know. Something stronger than crisis. Everything is falling apart
The only thing I can latch onto is that I don't recognize myself anymore. I don't act like who I was.


And that my friends, is nearly 2 years after Bomb Drop. That is the mess that is roiling and percolating in H's skull.

And Jaye? Jaye hasn't a freakin' clue. Just goes to work and tries to keep slogging along. Detaching detaching detaching. Waiting, thinking, not crying too much but not laughing too much either. Breathing, praying, walking.

We continue going to counseling. But IDK about that. H seems to like it. He does 90% of the talking. We have an appointment Monday and I plan to ask the Dr. just exactly what his game plan is. If he has one. Because on session 1 I told him that my issue was infidelity. (Certainly not saying that is the only issue, but that is the only issue that will result in me leaving.) And the A is rarely brought up. H talks about H. Not our marriage, just H. H's troubles, childhood etc. Its like H therapy that I sit in on. And H wants me there. I know, because I volunteered to not be there. SMH.

Take care everyone.

~~Peace~~
~ smile ~
Jaye


Me 46 H 56
M 22 yrs
S22, D20, Twin Ss18

You teach people how to treat you by what you allow.
What you stop.
And what you reinforce.
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A lack of boundaries invites a lack of respect.
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Hello!!

Quick note - I'm at wonderfuljob, but its dead slow, and I want to share.

H and I went to counseling yesterday and I managed to ask the Dr. some of the questions I've been mulling over. There were a few, but the one that is currently at the top of my mental pile is that the Dr. confirmed that H is a narcissist. Said no to MLC, but as there's no Narcissist forum I guess I'll just stay here...

But the diagnosis is somehow freeing. It says to me that I may not be crazy after all. Of course, it also says, according to my online research, that there's not a great deal of hope for the M....

There's more, but I've no time.

Take care DB world,

Love,

Jaye


Me 46 H 56
M 22 yrs
S22, D20, Twin Ss18

You teach people how to treat you by what you allow.
What you stop.
And what you reinforce.
~~~~~~~
A lack of boundaries invites a lack of respect.
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Hey mizjjd. Long time no hear. Nice to hear from you.

Quote:
It says to me that I may not be crazy after all
We should probably leave that out of the picture for now, yeah? I mean, you are married to a narcissistic person right? smile

It's good that he's going to counseling. Doesn't sound like you really need to be there. Maybe there's a time when you can hang back? I suspect the counselor, if any good, will eventually ask you to not be there. There are some things that you shouldn't be there for and it would get in the way. Give it time, but that's likely coming.

AJ


"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter" MLK
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Today I am wise, so I am changing myself."
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Thanks AJ!

Originally Posted By: AJM
Quote:
It says to me that I may not be crazy after all
We should probably leave that out of the picture for now, yeah? I mean, you are married to a narcissistic person right? smile


Good point, lol wink

Originally Posted By: AJM
It's good that he's going to counseling. Doesn't sound like you really need to be there. Maybe there's a time when you can hang back? I suspect the counselor, if any good, will eventually ask you to not be there. There are some things that you shouldn't be there for and it would get in the way. Give it time, but that's likely coming.


I have already volunteered to not go. Because (surprise!) its been the H show mostly anyway. Currently, H wants me to be there.

However, our 10 free sessions are coming to an end. At the end of the last session we were discussing the details of continuing what would be paid sessions. And I managed to calmly tell H that if he doesn't decide to completely get rid of OW I see no point in M counseling. (Oh the look I got from H! Lol, it would have soured milk.)

H is "thinking" about breaking it off completely with OW. He asks me if I would be happier without him. I tell him I don't know, but I'm willing to find out. He tried to make a deal, he'd get rid of OW completely but I'd have to promise to never ever speak of her. I said no deal. I don't plan to regularly chat about her, I don't now. But I'm not going to just pretend this never happened. I asked H if he could never mention the business that got shut down. He said that wasn't a fair comparison because the business meant everything to him...

I said yes, just like my M did.

But you know, he doesn't get it. If you believe the literature, he can't get it. That's part of the Narcissist. (The Dr. believes "selfish" is a kinder term?)Dr. told H that he leads a shallow emotional existence and that if we split H will end up isolated because I am the glue between him and the kids. (And none of this made H angry... oddness.)

I tried to explain to H that its kind of like he's color blind. There are "colors" he just can't see. Sometimes I think he knows they're there... and he squints... but still can't quite see them.

Sad thing really.

Peace,

~Jaye


Me 46 H 56
M 22 yrs
S22, D20, Twin Ss18

You teach people how to treat you by what you allow.
What you stop.
And what you reinforce.
~~~~~~~
A lack of boundaries invites a lack of respect.
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Hi mizjjd,
I'm beginning to think that the narcissism is a symptom of MLC! You see over and over again on the board where S's that used to be good, loving, normal H/W's turn into total narcosis's. Not sure how long you were M before the MLC started but so many S's that spent many, many years being "normal" suddenly turn out to be diagnosed when they go to MC. Could a true NP person hide their true nature for so very long? You would think that long before the MLC showed up, that would have come up in the R.

I'm no Dr. or therapist but just something I've been noticing. My W who was a good, loving W and mother for a long time now can't seem to think about or talk about ANYTHING BUT herself. She is obsessed with what she wants, what she is doing, how she feels. She doesn't care about how what she is doing affects her kids, her family, me...she can only think of herself. Sounds like narcissus to me but it's new behavior. Maybe they suppressed it and now can't? Or maybe it's all part of the MLC?

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Matt,

There is definitely some intertwining. And any crisis can make an individual appear Narcissistic - its a survival technique.

But my M hasn't been "good" for years, I'd say about the last 18 years.... (We've been married 23 years. I discovered current OW and got the bomb drop nearly 2 years ago.)

I think it is the "newness" of the behavior that lends the diagnosis to either MLC or not. Some of H's behaviors are new, and we are at the empty nest stage combined with the sudden declining health of his parents. But H has been emotionally unavailable for a long, long time. Which is what the Dr. referenced when I asked if this could be part of MLC. It is pretty typical of Narcissists to start a relationship with great intensity, then when they realize they've married nothing more than a flawed human, they flip the switch and show the dark side of the moon...lol.

I don't know your sitch, but I thank you for stopping by, and wish you all the best.


Me 46 H 56
M 22 yrs
S22, D20, Twin Ss18

You teach people how to treat you by what you allow.
What you stop.
And what you reinforce.
~~~~~~~
A lack of boundaries invites a lack of respect.
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 862
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Hello All.

Can hardly believe its been 8 months since I last checked in.

First, to all the newbies. Hang in there. You may be hurting like you've never hurt before, but you will get better. "Better" may not be getting-everything-you-want, but you will heal and strengthen. My prayers to you.

Second, to any who might remember and wonder, an update.

S22 Has moved out. Hasn't taken his cats yet, I'm hoping that will be very soon. He drinks too much and too often. With our family history that is a big worry. But he is an adult. I can't fix him. And I can't let worry for him rule my life.

D20 Back in rehab for the second time to deal with her heroin addiction. She has dropped, finally, the 34 year old BF who helped introduce her to heroin. No job, no prospects. More big worry. Another adult I can't fix and can't let worry for rule my life.

S18A In his 2nd semester of college. Seems to be doing ok. Have recently found out he "parties". Imagine being happy to learn its "only" pot... never would have thought I'd be capable of thinking that... but having a heroin addicted child rather skews one's perspective.

S18B Also in college. Not remotely ok. He parties with a capital P. And... seems to have had a psychotic break a couple weeks ago. Ended up committing himself for a couple days of observation. Discovered that while he hasn't used heroin or cocaine, there's not much else he hasn't used. And apparently he's very fond of LSD and Molly. Which I'm sure helped him have a psychotic break. This break coincided with a break up. H has decided the break up is "not only the focal point of the break, but also the cause." I am not so sure. But, I have a huge bias against drugs and so tend to find them at fault in most situations.

H. Still here... OW is gone. Sort of replaced though. H has made a "pen pal" out of someone he met through online poker. I don't think he knows that I know. The emails are PG at the most (rather boring after the aching thighs of the last one lol) but he hides them from me and never mentions her. And, he never mentions me in his emails to her either. So, yeah, its cheating. Oddest thing in finding the first one though was an absence of feeling on my part. It was, is, rather like discovering a knife protruding from your arm but being unable to feel any pain.

Anticlimactic. Just another sign of how far I have come, how much the marriage has changed. It may change more drastically fairly soon because H has decided someone must go watch over his parents. And that someone, he has decided, will be him. His plan is for him to go live in Canada with his folks while I remain here in Ohio "keeping things going and being here if the kids need me." He plans to possibly work part time while there and send money to me.

Sounds like a bit of magical thinking to me. But, truth be told, it also sounds ideal. Not, mind you, that H ever asked me if I would be ok with it. (Why start concerning himself with me at this point in the game?)His parents don't seem to think its a good idea, something about "breaking up our family". H assures them its not a problem because the kids are at school/moved out etc and Jaye'll be here for them and H is only 9 hours away. Do you notice, ladies and gents, that there is not a single mention of perhaps Jaye, perhaps the marriage being part of the equation? Thank heavens I am at a point where I can find that amusing instead of painful.

And as for Jaye. Still shining along. I lost my wonderfuljob. I started to decline last summer, started making mistakes, couldn't concentrate. They let me go just after Christmas. And... within a month I was recruited for another job, same pay, 1 mile from my house. Badda bing. Lol. And I am still at fastfoodland, still working 7 days a week. And still not making enough money to make it on my own. Had surgery in January, $7000 after insurance. But, and perhaps H is right and I am the crazy one, life is good.

Yep. Could be crazy. I have a drunk child, a junkie child and a psychotic child and a fairly average child. I have a H who is a serial cheater and a M that has slipped off the rocks and is now floundering in the cesspool between the rocks. But lol, I'm ok. Life is good. I look forward to things, I plan small celebrations - H and I are going out to dinner for our 23rd anniversary next week - I have some goals for myself. I am working out. I feel good. My life is not perfect, nearly perfectly awful in fact lol. But I am ok.

Gotta run. Treadmill's calling me, and I have to feed those damn cats... lol. I'm all for detachment and having others be responsible for themselves, but, the cats are hungry.

I have seen that Job and Cadet and many other wonderful people are still here, earning stars in their crowns. May god bless us all.

Take care,

Love,

Jaye


Me 46 H 56
M 22 yrs
S22, D20, Twin Ss18

You teach people how to treat you by what you allow.
What you stop.
And what you reinforce.
~~~~~~~
A lack of boundaries invites a lack of respect.
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 28,295
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OMG! No wonder the weather is so crazy! This is a surprise to beat all!

I'm so sorry to hear about all of the "stuff" going on w/your family. I do hope your children will get it together and leave the booze and drugs alone.

I'm sorry things have taken a downward spiral a bit, but you've got a good attitude and I know that you are doing the best you can. I bet you can't wait for hubby to move in w/his parents. LOL! Now, that's going to be very interesting. He may end up reserving a room at the nearest loony bin once he's there for a while.

As for the cats...Jaye, I know you want them gone, but right now, they are just good companions to have around the house. They really don't create a lot of problems for you...right?

I'm sorry to hear that you had surgery, but I do hope you are doing okay.

I'm keeping you and your family in my thoughts and prayers. Don't be a stranger, please come back to post again real soon. We miss you!


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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So nice to hear from you Jaye!! You sound GOOD despite all the dysfunction surrounding you. So sad to hear about your kids' problems with drugs and mental illness. It must be so hard for you. I can't believe the twins are 18; where has the time gone??? Sorry to hear you lost WonderfulJob but it sounds like you've found an even more WonderfulJob! Congratulations!

Is your H still trying to make a living as a professional gambler? You'll be amazed at the peace you'll experience once he's gone. My ex is back with his mom too (after an extended 5 month congugal visit to Moscow smile ) and is VERY unhappy but I feel as if an oppressive black cloud has blown out of my house.


Linda

Me 65, Ex 64
M 38 y
2 adult S, 4 G-Kids
MLC 11/07
BD 12/09
D 3/14
Dating nice guy 7/14
Engaged to nice guy 12/17
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