Coincidently, I 've reached 100 posts and from what I've seen on this board, I'm supposed to start a new thread. Not sure how to do that, so I clicked on "New Topic".
Well, my wife who has been involved in a PA for the past 5 months turned to me on Friday night, after we put the kids to bed, and told me "she couldn't do it anymore".
She couldn't continue to live a lie and stay in this relationship (our marriage).
She explained that as soon as 6 months after we got married, she had begged and pleaded for me to change my ways and get help for my issues with anger and other personality flaws(we've been married 10 years). That her family had warned her against marrying me and that her damaged relationship with each family member is a result of disregading their warning. She said she is exausted and can't do it anymore. Even though she said she is so happy and pleased to see all the changes I've been making for the past 4 1/2 months, she just can't do it anymore because of all the pain and the miserable experience our marriage has been. She said that she wants to leave the marriage before she starts to hate me. Right now, she said she resents me so much.
She provided me a 4 page letter chronologically itemizing each problem and her attempt to address it with me or the pain she suffered as a result.
She was very detailed and even revealed her affair...that she claimed is over. She stated that she knew I was aware of it because she knew I was going through her texts and emails.
She simply apologized for the affair and said it's over and it's in the past and there's nothing she can do about it. Said she realized how wrong it was and that she needs to make things right with God and focus on being a better mother to our children.
Now here's the rub:
For the past 4 months, I've been reading DR, DB, online community, researching affairs, researching marriage saving techniques, reading and gathering valuable knowledge through the vets here and others. So, when I'm ready to confront my wife about her PA, I'm ready!
Wrong. W dropped the bomb and I immediately went into defense mode and tried to counter all of her arguments. Explaining why she feels the way she does. Informing her that all marriages go through this type of errosion and that love is a decison, not a feeling and we can rebuild this marriage.
She continued to tell me she's made her decision and that's it.
I asked her to consider giving us 1 year to work on our marriage together. If after 1 year she still felt the same, I would accept her wishes. She actually, paused for a few seconds, but then said no her decision is final.
Last night, I stopped W as she was going to bed in the other room. I asked her if I could aske her a question. I asked her if I deserved the common courtesy of her honesty. She said yes. So, I asked her about the PA and if it was truly over. She explained that it was. We talked more about what she had done and what her plans were.
She stated that she doesn't want anything from me. No money, no belongings, etc. I asked what about the house? She said, I don't even want the house. She said I want the kids to be able to remain here in the house.
She asked if I would be willing to share time away so that each of us can have time alone with the kids and so it won't be that mom is always leaving for a few days at a time.
I agreed to that and said I'm more than willing to work with you on all of this. I'm not your adversary and have no intention of being difficult. I guess I'll have to earn your trust.
Then I said we can work through this. You don't need to rush everything and get a divorce now. She said, I'm not going to run out tomorrow and file. I want to make sure we can make this the least disruptive for the kids as possible while we figure out what we're doing about separating or divorcing.
So, what is my next step? Distance? Give her space? DB my Arse off? GET A LIFE my arse off?
I want to make the most out of this opportunity.
Please help!!!!
Vince B M=10 yrs T=13 yrs M45 / H 44 2 Boys 5 & 8 D Day: 7/16/13
She asked if I would be willing to share time away so that each of us can have time alone with the kids and so it won't be that mom is always leaving for a few days at a time.
I agreed to that and said I'm more than willing to work with you on all of this. I'm not your adversary and have no intention of being difficult. I guess I'll have to earn your trust.
Then I said we can work through this. You don't need to rush everything and get a divorce now. She said, I'm not going to run out tomorrow and file. I want to make sure we can make this the least disruptive for the kids as possible while we figure out what we're doing about separating or divorcing.
So, what is my next step? Distance? Give her space? DB my Arse off? GET A LIFE my arse off?
I want to make the most out of this opportunity.
Please help!!!!
DD,
Your next step is to come here BEFORE saying ANYTHING to your wife regarding legal moves, finances, custody, etc.
Your stock answer right now needs to be "I have some decisions to make; we can talk later about these things" and "Looks like we both have some decisions to make."
And stop disrespecting your wife's decision. When you try to disagree with what she's doing, that's about the most UN-validating thing you can do. Just say "Look, I didn't want a divorce and I don't want one now, but I DO hear you, and I'm not going to stand in your way."
I'm sorry this has come to this, but you need to be VERY careful how you handle these next steps. Frankly you are not (and none of us were!!!) in an emotional state right now that is conducive to potentially life-changing decision-making.
None of this is going anywhere anytime soon. Deep breaths . . . and PLAN.
Last night, I stopped W as she was going to bed in the other room. I asked her if I could asked her a question. I asked her if I deserved the common courtesy of her honesty. She said yes. So, I asked her about the PA and if it was truly over. She explained that it was.
And for GOSH SAKES, please step asking the most deceitful one in the room for HONESTY. All cheaters lie -- PERIOD. If you asked her that just so she could have one more opportunity to FINALLY tell you the truth, then fine, but please don't take any comfort from her answers.
More importantly, don't make -- or change -- any plans you might have based on it.
I want to be sure to start my post-bomb drop life on the right foot.
Tonight, when I get home, am I kind and positive or to myself and dark?
Should I keep myself occupied or interact as usual?
FYI: The day after my W dropped the bomb and I went into defense mode, I apologized and acknowledged that all her feelings are understandable. During our conversation, I did take full accountability for all my contributions to our broken marriage. I expressed how sorry I was and how difficult and painful it must have been for her. I did end our conversation by telling W that I realize she has made her decision, that I don't want a divorce, I believe in our marriage, but I won't stand in her way.
She had a migraine, so I said let's get some sleep. She said goodnight and retired to the spare bedroom. I went to our bedroom. This morning, we were both very cordial and friendly.
At this point, no details have been discussed regarding custody, finances, etc. We just shared what we were thinking and that we want the kid's disruption to be minimal.
If we agree to both take a few days at a time every couple weeks and leave the other with the kids in the house, is that a bad thing? Isn't space what I should be providing right now?
Vince B M=10 yrs T=13 yrs M45 / H 44 2 Boys 5 & 8 D Day: 7/16/13
She stated that she knew I was aware of it because she knew I was going through her texts and emails.
DD,
This changes everything, and if you'll recall this is precisely what I was afraid of.
I'll need to think about this. You need to first and foremost fully protect yourself legally and financially. What you might be able to do to save your marriage now comes with a huge task of re-establishing ATTRACTION. I'm NOT trying to pour salt in your wounds, but think now of all of your words and actions over the past several months from YOUR WIFE'S eyes, and her KNOWING THAT YOU KNOW.
It's a game-changer, and it will affect what advice I would give you going forward.
In the meantime, not fake-syrupy-happy, and not cold/pouty/distant. You should be cordial and BUSINESSLIKE, with an overall air of "This isn't what I chose, but I realize I"ll be okay" and an air of MYSTERY about you.
If we agree to both take a few days at a time every couple weeks and leave the other with the kids in the house, is that a bad thing? Isn't space what I should be providing right now?
I would talk to both your family law attorney (because there may be legal implications for anything you do or DON'T do in this regard now, moving forward) and also a good family therapist. I'm not either, but what you're describing could be very confusing to your kids unless it's handled properly. Their emotional well-being and feeling of safety and security need to be your #1 (and #2, and #3, and . . . ) priority right now.
I do recall you mentioning that my W probably knows that I know.
The reason I asked her again last night if the PA was over is because I wanted her to understand that if I find out down the road that it is not over, she will need to leave. That is what I told her.
I will maintain an even keel in my demeanor with a positive attitude. I'll try to keep busy and stay out of her hair.
Vince B M=10 yrs T=13 yrs M45 / H 44 2 Boys 5 & 8 D Day: 7/16/13
The reason I asked her again last night if the PA was over is because I wanted her to understand that if I find out down the road that it is not over, she will need to leave. That is what I told her.
Good -- boundary laid then. How do you intend to find out if she's still in contact with the PA guy?
One of the reasons I'm a big "boundaries SOONER, rather than later" guy is that once a walkaway spouse tells you they want OUT of the marriage (and maybe even has filed for divorce, or at least SAYS they are going to) you really have lost any leverage in your ability to enforce such a boundary. You can try, but really she's just going to say "Well, I consider the marriage to be over ANYWAY," and it's a bit of a non-starter.
I think you would be wise to fully separate your finances at this point -- yours, hers, family's -- and put some formal agreements in place. I certainly wouldn't allow any family finances to spent in any way on her affair, nor on legal fees for her to try to tear apart the family.
I see your point. At this point, my thought is that if she doesn't rush into filing and we are peacfully cohabitating, I will be able to continue my DBing and 180's along with GAL activities. She metioned that neither of us have any business, financially, going out and taking on more debt by renting a second dwelling. We both currently have personal checking/savings accounts and a joint account that I facilitate. And there's no risk of that breaking me, it merely holds the monthly operating funds.
Moreover, Michigan is a no-fault state. All marital property is divided 50/50 in the event the two parties can't come to an amicable settlement re: division of property. If she decides she wants the house, she'll have to buy me out in cash and visa/versa. At this point, everythings seems reasonable.
As far as custody, we are both in agreement that minimizing trauma for our kids is priority #1. I have an appointment with my therapist tomorrow and I'll bring up the children and our discussion re: shared time away.
Vince B M=10 yrs T=13 yrs M45 / H 44 2 Boys 5 & 8 D Day: 7/16/13
I'm trying to remember, DD -- have you yet retained a good family law attorney? Preferably one who specializes in paternal custody and "men's rights" issues?
. . . At this point, my thought is that if she doesn't rush into filing and we are peacfully cohabitating, I will be able to continue my DBing and 180's along with GAL activities . . .
My recommendation would be for you to "180" your 180s at this point. A strong, no-nonsense legal + financial + relational stance right now MIGHT be your last best shot at this, DD.
and "x 5" because she now knows that you knew all along, and yet played nice with her to try to win her back.
I haven't retained one, but I did take advantage of a free 30 minute consultation from a partner attorney at A.D.A.M. (American Divorce Association for Men). They offer a 1 hour case evaluation for $95. I guess I should probably do that.
Basically, he said that I would need to file for divorce in order to put exparte orders in place, preventing W wife removing property or children from home until formal terms were decided. That's not really something I want to do.
Vince B M=10 yrs T=13 yrs M45 / H 44 2 Boys 5 & 8 D Day: 7/16/13
Hmm. That's a tricky one. Pissing her off will surely evaporate her willingness to work amicably through this.
Good luck then. You still don't get it, DD. I'm not saying to be a DIKK; I'm saying that trying to do the "Mr. Nice Guy" approach has clearly NOT worked, and now that she knows that YOU Knew all along that she was cheating on you, and yet you continued to try to woo her???
I just don't know what else to say to you. Maybe you should go back and read some of the old posts from HopefulStill and Accuray and some others to you, in light of these recent developments, and see if they may have contained some things that might still be able to help you.
I'll leave you with this: there's a reason why they put that little "v" in between the names of the parties in a potential divorce. The process is adversarial, by design. I had to file, and play that game, and it's NOT in my nature -- AT ALL.
I also saved my marriage, by 180'ing the "Mr. Nice Guy" stuff while simultaneously working on my wife's legitimate marital complaints, as well as my own individual issues.
Well, you got through BD. It's a shame it wasn't on your terms, but it is what it is now, so you'll deal with it and learn.
I may be all over the place here as I'm taking time out from work to post to you (so forgive what may be a disjointed post).
What are the rules in Michigan with regards to one spouse being unfaithful? In my state, it can cost the unfaithful spouse money and custody rights (in some instances) and is never looked upon favorably if it can be proven. I ask because it may be part of the reason that your wife is denying an ongoing affair. It may, in fact, be over, but I doubt it. To Starsky's point- take nothing she says as the real truth.
I heard the same stuff from my wife - "I appreciate all the changes you've made, BUT......". It sounds to me as if your wife was waiting for you to dump her, but became impatient when you didn't and decided to beat you to it. Many WAS want the LBS to look like the bad guy that broke up the marriage. It helps them save face later. My wife flat out told me that she had been trying for months to get me to dump her by making herself impossible to live with.
At this point I agree with Starsky's plan - just remain polite and aloof. I would continue your changes, but don't expect to get credit for your actions. You're just showing her that you really have changed, and that you ARE this new person. Avoid pursuing at all costs.
The fact that your wife pulled the trigger for D even after noticing your changes does not mesh with her affair having ended. Why would she leave someone that was meeting her needs if she had nobody else? It doesn't make sense. You have a home and two children together. If there were no one else in her life that she was trying to free up time (and eliminate guilt) to see, then she would have given your marriage a year to sort out.
I would investigate and find out the truth about her affair. You can't have her living there and cake eating right in front of you. You must have boundaries.
Do not continue to argue with her. Funny thing about human nature- even when we know we are wrong, we will argue ever stronger against someone we dislike just so they don't win. In other words, whenever you go to tell your wife you will be ok, or that she can love you again, or the OM is no good for her, she will dig in even harder to prove you wrong. Just lead through your actions.
Oh, and I got letters from my wife too, listing all of the bad things I had done in the M. It felt, at the time, like she was building her case for D. I took those letters as things to improve upon, but also realized it was trumped up through her fog to make a comparison between me (all bad) and the OM (all good).
I say this so you don't panic. You've actually got much more time than you think. Just don't make the mistakes of the past and sit idle during this time. Use it to your advantage. If you do the wrong things, you can quite literally drive her out of your home.
This is the SECOND time she's cheating on you. Last time you pleaded for your marriage, begged her to stay and it lasted for a while. The relationship cooled off. What's her M.O? You got it: cheating. Cheating is in her blood. So she cheated on you AGAIN.
The question you should be asking yourself, is not, "What kind of man do I need to be to make this woman stay with me?", but rather, "Do I really want to stay with a two-time cheater who does not believe in marriage or till-death-do-you-part?" Yeah you might trick her into staying with you again, but sooner-or-later, when you deliver a less than perfect life performance, she'll cheat again, and again.
THIS SECOND time she cheated, you said nothing, you were hoping to confront her about the affair, but you didn't She beat you to the punch and you scrambled and begged and pleaded for the marriage.
She has all the power. The more you try to save this marriage the more you are going to LOSE her and your children, your house and your income.
She keeps beating you to the punch, keeping you needy, off-balance and pathetic. In dire situations, where you suck at Divorce-Busting (which most of us do, when we are constantly off balance and needy), Michelle, in her book, talks about the Last Resort Technique, After The Last Resort Technique and Ultimatums. Read them. Live them.
Let her go. It's the only way to win her, and it's the only way to keep your kids, house and money in case she doesn't have a change of heart.
Go see a family practice lawyer. Tomorrow. Right away.
Do not leave your home. Not now. Not unless you decide it's what YOU want and you have a separation agreement in hand and/or you are selling it. Better that she leaves. Do not agree to bird-nesting (where you each move in and out of the house)unless you have thought it through.
Ask yourself, "If we get a divorce, what do I want?" Be clear. This is very important. Do you want the house? Do you want shared custody? Do you want your wife to leave? She says she doesn't want anything -- just for the kids to stay in the house? Really? With whom? She knows the judge will favor her. Do you want to Bird-Nest (move in and out of the house regularly?) Is she willing to agree to move out to an apartment and have the kids see her every other weekend or 50/50?
I think when someone says they don't WANT anything, they just want to get out and get in their lover's arms. A good divorce attorney will talk her out of her generosity right-quick. Soon, YOU will will be living in an apartment seeing your kids every other weekend while your soon-to-be-ex and her boyfriend (who she claims she broke up with) will be raising your children and eating most of your income. Wake up dude.
It's too late to take boxing classes, get healthy, take fun hobbies and GET-A-LIFE to win her back. You need to do these things for you, NOT HER. Getting a life as a desperate measure to win the other person back is always detected as pathetic.
What you need to is to decide what YOU want if and when you divorce. Then work towards that. Then you will finally show some backbone, which is attractive and strong. It will either turn her around, OR, it will get you a fair settlement in the divorce.
She just told you she slept with another man and all you did was plead for her to stay. REALLY?
Show some strength. Do the last resort technique, not to win her back, but you win you some time to see a lawyer, figure out what you want and then be clear and strong when you tell her how this divorce is going to play out. She will see strength in you for the first time. Sometimes pushing her out the door is what works.
Frankly, I think your marriage is dead. Sorry. I've been there. When they are two-time cheaters and you are pleading for your marriage it's pretty tough to turn around. I'm not convinced the affair is over. Your wife has decided that the solution to your marriage problems is in someone else's arms. Frankly, a two-time cheater may not be worth keeping around.
In Michigan, it's all pretty much no-fault. An affair may be looked at by the court when it comes to custody and or financial settlements, but it's not necessarily a game changer.
It's really hard to tell if she's actually being honest. Who knows?
I plan to continue with my self improvement and not pursue her.
I have noticed that the texting and earlier morning departures and later evening arrivals home have stopped since about two weeks ago.
Again, who knows?
Vince B M=10 yrs T=13 yrs M45 / H 44 2 Boys 5 & 8 D Day: 7/16/13
I brought up the fact that this was the second time she has gone outside our marriage during our discussion. She replied that there were feelings, but it wasn't a physical thing. I told her it was an EA, still an affair!
I also told her that if I do find out that she is still seeing OM, she will need to leave.
At this point, because most courts favor the mother, if she wanted the house, she would probably get it. Then I'm screwed.
So, I'm confused at how being strong and telling her what I want and how it's going to go down is going to do anything more than piss her off and completely change her stance of not pursuing my 401(k), IRA and property. At 46 years old and the economy we're in and how the future looks for this country, I'll never be able to make that up.
If she leaves, she leaves. But I want to stay in my house and have shared custody of our kids. After all, she WANTS to leave, not me. So she should go and start her new life. Not take mine.
Vince B M=10 yrs T=13 yrs M45 / H 44 2 Boys 5 & 8 D Day: 7/16/13
"So, I'm confused at how being strong and telling her what I want and how it's going to go down is going to do anything more than piss her off and completely change her stance of not pursuing my 401(k), IRA and property. At 46 years old and the economy we're in and how the future looks for this country, I'll never be able to make that up.
If she leaves, she leaves. But I want to stay in my house and have shared custody of our kids. After all, she WANTS to leave, not me. So she should go and start her new life. Not take mine."
DD,
I too did reason with my W in the beginning of my sitch that didn't work the books and vets here reconnected me to my old self and took a stronger stance on my sitch.
Don't be afraid of pissing her off, especially if you are standing for your values and your M. From now on it's all business like, from now on your focus is YOU and the kids. I like that you lay down that boundary and protect it. No more her flaunting this A in your face. You have to gain back your respect, you lost it by wooing her knowing her A's.
You do a 180 and take a strong stance. Get that confidence back...no more reasoning. If she wants so bad to go let her go and open her cage...convey to her that you will be ok without her and you can take care of the kids.
These guys are giving you solid advise. Ask more questions through your L. Your house and 401 k will be divided 50/50 because it was acquired during M, "community property", at least this is what I learned from my consultation.
Got to get going here DD. keep posting.
Newman
me40; W43 M18; T~20 D18; S13 & S3 bomb 5/9/11 EA busted 4/30/12; 9/4/12; 4/29/13; 6/10/13 same OM
Separated 4/1/14
"Even a flicker of light will shine through darkness-12/25/2012"....better days ahead.
So, I'm confused at how being strong and telling her what I want and how it's going to go down is going to do anything more than piss her off and completely change her stance of not pursuing my 401(k), IRA and property.
What is your option, if not being strong? Do you not realize that being a weakling and mealymouthed will only make her actions worse? If you think it's bad now....just become a scared little man and see what she does. I understand your concern about financial security, but don't trade it off for a miserable life. You can't live in fear of pissing her off. And...you don't want her to know you are afraid of making her mad and what she may do.
Get the legal facts regarding D fathers in your state and what you can do to protect yourself financially.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
I'll offer you one alternate perspective. Let's consider that her affair really is over. If her affair really IS over, and worse yet if it was ended by OM and not W, then this is how W is feeling right now:
-- Sad -- Angry -- Abandoned -- Betrayed -- Semi-hopeless
She will go through the stages of grief that a very pleasurable and emotionally intense period of her life has been replaced with marital strife.
That pain and anger needs an outlet, and there you are.
Therefore, you MAY be experiencing "end of affair" backlash. If that's the case, then your best course of action may be to do nothing for about 90 days. After she has gone through the post-affair grief process, she will think differently about her situation than she does now.
If this is truly what's happening, then you want to continue to exhibit your 180's, but to Starsky's point, no "Mr. Nice Guy". You want to appear to have accepted what she's said, and lean into her plans.
The ideal situation is that her affair grief diminishes concurrently with the gravity and finality of the decisions she's making growing in importance.
You want to step back and let her be, plan in the background and without her knowledge to protect yourself by meeting with a lawyer, and do not set yourself up as her adversary *yet* until you see how this is going to unfold. If she wants to work toward separation and divorce? Fine, she can drive the process and you will work with her on it.
If she sees you continuing to try to keep the marriage together, then she has more time to fence-sit and there is no pressure with regard to the choices she is making. Lean into it.
All this assumes her affair is truly over. If you can figure out if it is over or not, and if it is, how it ended, that would be to your advantage. I would not ask her, as you can't trust her, but try to find out how and when.
Acc
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
this is something I didn't consider, yet a possibility.
Prior to W dropping the bomb on Friday night, she has been aloof, silent, avoided me, responded to my inquiries very briefly and matter of factly, always found busy tasks to keep her from having to be around me.
Since Friday, she has been chatty, sharig her thoughts, tells me stories about her day, asks me questions and her demeanor seems much friendlier and upbeat.
I don't know what to make of it. She claims to be the one who ended the A because she realized how "wrong it was" and she needs to make things right with "her God".
I don't know if the guilt and stress were overwhelming her or if she feels better because she got her plans for divorce off her chest. But she's definitely in much better spirits.
Vince B M=10 yrs T=13 yrs M45 / H 44 2 Boys 5 & 8 D Day: 7/16/13
Since Friday, she has been chatty, sharig her thoughts, tells me stories about her day, asks me questions and her demeanor seems much friendlier and upbeat.
Then I'm about 95% certain she's still in contact with OM. These are not consistent with signs of hard withdrawal following an affair breakup.
More likely she is in a "period of best behavior," or what I -- in my sitch -- called my wife's "St. Sally" behavior" (first name was changed, to protect the innocent, lol).
DD, Your wife is feeling a huge sense of relief now that the bomb has dropped- that's probably why she's upbeat.
Within the last few days, I found out that some friends are getting a D. When the wife told the husband that she was done with him and his promises to change, he made all the typical mistakes that you read about on here. I heard about it from his WAWs perspective. She was so disgusted with his crying and guilting, she said she thought to herself "dude, man up and grow a pair, you look pathetic". I cringed when I heard that. However, I have to believe that's how many WAWs perceive their spouses during and after BD.
I read so many stories on here where the soon to be ex-husbands turn themselves into simpy, wimpy "yes" men thinking that that's what will bring their wives back. WRONG! It's not attractive to them! Just because you are meeting your wife's most important emotional needs doesn't mean that you need to become a wimp! You can be kind, attentive and caring while also being manly and attractive! Why do some men on here find that the two are mutually exclusive?
DD, it will be hard for you to be firm with your wife now because she knows that you knew of her affair and didn't come out and call her on it. As hard as it will be, however, you have to regain your footing and strength. You can still meet her needs and keep your changes, but you must regain your attractive, in control, masculine side. Empower yourself with knowledge. Visit with your attorney. Investigate and find out what your wife has been, and is, up to. Your wife MUST know that you are a take charge guy (not a jerk- a take charge guy), and that her bad actions will result in consequences from you. I'm NOT suggesting you say anything to her, and certainly don't tell her that you will dish out consequences! I'm saying that that is the perception of you that you want her to have. You want to keep your marriage, and make it better than before- agreeing to always put each other first from now on. But if not, you will do what you need to do.
I'm getting it! I plan to begin gathering the knowledge I'll need to proceed here. I'm going to have my case evaluated and find out what my options are.
I haven't been whining and pleading. I've been upbeat and positive. She knows that I have the potential to be very strong and take charge. She's been with me for 12 years.
Vince B M=10 yrs T=13 yrs M45 / H 44 2 Boys 5 & 8 D Day: 7/16/13
1. Get legal advice, fast. 2. Do not pursue your wife. 3. Show back-bone and resolve. 4. Believe that she wants a divorce.
If she sees you are preparing yourself, emotionally and practically, for a divorce, she will realize she's playing for keeps. You won't come back crawling to her. Her actions have consequences. This will show strength. Don't be an a**hole, but, remember, you are not her best friend or husband anymore, not UNTIL she says she wants back in to the marriage. She just came off an emotional affair(probably a physical affair).
Start using the Last Resort Technique.
Decide you can "wait" in terms of divorce action for a limited amount of time. If she's pressing for a divorce and you are dragging your feet, (either trying to save the marriage OR not sure what you want) it will get ugly.
Most importantly, under the assumption that you are getting a divorce, be clear and know WHAT YOU WANT. I kid you not. Don't be ambiguous.
If you are not rich, you can't afford a knock-down contested divorce in court. So...once you know what you want, make your wife an offer and stick to it. If she doesn't accept your proposal then get yourself 2 Lawyers to agree to practice collaborative law (who refuse to go to court and fight. It's a form of divorce law.) If they do that, find a good mediator, come up to a fair agreement, and then have a lawyer look over the agreement and sign.
Your wife's good will now (pretending not to want anything3) will erode once she's talked to a lawyer.
Now here's my personal observation. I've been on the DB boards a lot in the old days. You've had the Divorce Remedy in hand the first time around, you went to Retrouvaille and did some triage in the marriage after the first affair. The marriage deteriorated again and she's in a second affair and wants out AGAIN.
I've seen this scenario several times. Even Divorce Busting superstars (who used to coach us with their success stories) who saved their marriage the first time COULD NOT do it a second time. Their wives wanted out, and cheated, AGAIN. It plays out one of two ways: you either hold on to a spouse who wants out and end up losing everything (including your house) OR you accept that this person doesn't want to be married to you and isn't faithful, and you move on successfully through a fair settlement and divorce. I know two superstar divorce busters who ended up in divorces the SECOND time their spouses chose to cheat. One ended up frozen like a deer in the headlights and lost his house, the other actually "led" his wife through the divorce and came out a champ.
Sorry to say this, but a repeat cheater is not likely to be a good long-term spouse. It's not about you, dude, it's about her.
On a more personal note, I was lucky. I came out with a good settlement. Shared child custody, paying minimal child-support and no alimony. I thought I busted my divorce. Then a couple of years later she wanted out again and started cheating. My only regret: not having divorced her the FIRST time around. I wasted years of my life.
1. Get legal advice, fast. 2. Do not pursue your wife. 3. Show back-bone and resolve. 4. Believe that she wants a divorce.
If she sees you are preparing yourself, emotionally and practically, for a divorce, she will realize she's playing for keeps. You won't come back crawling to her. Her actions have consequences. This will show strength. Don't be an a**hole, but, remember, you are not her best friend or husband anymore, not UNTIL she says she wants back in to the marriage. She just came off an emotional affair(probably a physical affair).
Start using the Last Resort Technique.
Decide you can "wait" in terms of divorce action for a limited amount of time. If she's pressing for a divorce and you are dragging your feet, (either trying to save the marriage OR not sure what you want) it will get ugly.
Most importantly, under the assumption that you are getting a divorce, be clear and know WHAT YOU WANT. I kid you not. Don't be ambiguous.
If you are not rich, you can't afford a knock-down contested divorce in court. So...once you know what you want, make your wife an offer and stick to it. If she doesn't accept your proposal then get yourself 2 Lawyers to agree to practice collaborative law (who refuse to go to court and fight. It's a form of divorce law.) If they don't do that in your state, find a good mediator, come up to a fair agreement, and then have a lawyer look over the agreement and sign.
Your wife's good will now (pretending not to want anything3) will erode once she's talked to a lawyer.
Now here's my personal observation. I've been on the DB boards a lot in the old days. You've had the Divorce Remedy in hand the first time around, you went to Retrouvaille and did some triage in the marriage after the first affair. The marriage deteriorated again and she's in a second affair and wants out AGAIN.
I've seen this scenario several times. Even Divorce Busting superstars (who used to coach us with their success stories) who saved their marriage the first time COULD NOT do it a second time. Their wives wanted out, and cheated, AGAIN. It plays out one of two ways: you either hold on to a spouse who wants out and end up losing everything (including your house) OR you accept that this person doesn't want to be married to you and isn't faithful, and you move on successfully through a fair settlement and divorce. I know two superstar divorce busters who ended up in divorces the SECOND time their spouses chose to cheat. One ended up frozen like a deer in the headlights and lost his house, the other actually "led" his wife through the divorce and came out a champ.
Sorry to say this, but a repeat cheater is not likely to be a good long-term spouse. It's not about you, dude, it's about her.
On a more personal note, I was lucky. I came out with a good settlement. Shared child custody, paying minimal child-support and no alimony. I thought I busted my divorce. Then a couple of years later she wanted out again and started cheating. My only regret: not having divorced her the FIRST time around. I wasted years of my life.
I'm getting there. This is a very troubled women, my W. She has struggled her whole life with esteem, identity, searching for this unattainable "happiness" she claims is eluding her.
I think I'm coming to terms with the fact that she IS going to divorce me. I'm not going to push it, but when the time comes and she requests info or documents, I'll comply.
I'll meet with an attorney and learn my options.
At some point, she'll be faced with the real truth and suffer for her decisions. Any negative impact that our children experince as a result of her desires and actions will fall directly on her.
My position will always be, I don't want this and never did.
Vince B M=10 yrs T=13 yrs M45 / H 44 2 Boys 5 & 8 D Day: 7/16/13
Remember, do the Last Resort Technique for your own sanity, health and self-respect. Read it again. Read it closely. It's how to act WHEN your spouse says she wants a divorce.
You can take a *little* time to wait. There might be small window where this might change her perspective. Chances are, it won't. Wait a *little* while. I'd say no more than a month.
However, you can't sit there and passively respond to her initiatives to move forward with a divorce. The longer you wait and drag your heels, and the more the initiative she feels she has to take in divorcing you, the more she'll be in the driver's seat. This means she is more likely to engage a shark for a lawyer and then you'll end up in an adversarial divorce, constantly on the defensive. Remember, your dynamic up till now has been her DRIVING the change, upsetting the apple cart and you RESPONDING (often in fear, desperation, being off-balance).
You said you will wait for her to divorce you and then you will comply. NO!!! Don't just comply. Decide what YOUR post-divorce life should look like and then move in that direction. Move forward in your divorce, don't get dragged into it kicking and screaming or even stoically. Once she's clearly on the path to divorce, YOU take control and lead her through it, to your desired ends.
Remember, the emotional stance, "I don't want this and never did" is what you feel NOW. It's normal. You are probably experiencing some kind of PSTD. However, it's a complacent stance and rather debilitating when it comes to advocating for your own rights and desires. When you get to the point where you have accepted that you are getting a divorce AND realize you deserve better than a cheating spouse, your attitude will change. There's a great website to help with this, it's called Chump Lady. It's very funny but quite empowering, check it out when you have the time.
On a personal note. I suggest you go see a solid therapist for yourself. Someone that can help you process your feelings and give you the courage and clarity to advocate for yourself and the children.
Well, it seems that at least some aspect of reality is beginning to ebb its way into my W brain.
She is realizing how her finances are going to be effected by her decision to leave our M.
After she started her new job, I mentioned that it would be nice if she would contribute to the general expense of operating the household. She stated that she planned to just as soon as she took care of some looming expenses of her own that had piled up.
So, our understanding was she would begin to cut me a check each time she got paid. Well, since then, she dropped the bomb and when I asked for a check last night she wrote out a check for a lesser amount than we had discussed. When I brought it to her attention, she became bothered and silent.
Later, after we put the kids to bed, I asked her if there was something I did to put her in a foul mood. She paused, and said no. She was bothered because a) earlier, she explained why the check was less because she had some expenses she needed to cover and was angry at herself for sharing her personal financial business with me. b) she's realizing that moving forward with her plan is going to effect her significantly financially.
I thought to myself, duh! Of course this is going to effect you financially...emotionally, psychologically, spiritually, socially, as well as your relationship with our kids.
I could sense how quickly she is capable of snapping into the mode of a raving witch as well.
Now I'll need to play this cool and lean toward the "LRT", allowing her to come into her own with regard to how all her brilliant decisions are going to come to fruition and how they will effect her the rest of her eternally happy life, away from me.
Vince B M=10 yrs T=13 yrs M45 / H 44 2 Boys 5 & 8 D Day: 7/16/13
W and I have discussed what we both see in the near future. we want a minimal disruption to our two boy's lives.
W suggested a "nesting" type separation where each of us goes away for a few days at a time while the other remains with the kids, giving them a solid, comfortable and safe home.
At this point, she said she has not filed for a D and for the time being, we can see how this works out until we decide on anything long-term or permanent.
I'm open to this idea, as it does allow us time apart without paralizing both of us financailly.
I met with an attorney who advicates for men in divorce. It's essentially a fairly cut and dry scenario as we live in a no-fault state. If W and I can come to terms re: who gets what and who goes where, the court will accept our terms and sign off on it. With regard to her affair, he said that may be considered in a settlement, should it become adversarial, but only minimally. He did mention that we could subpoena the two douche bags who W had A with as a "negotiating tool".
My desire is to keep the house and have W find another place as she is the one who wants out. The attorney said because of her very poor credit history, she would be unable to refinance the house, which is in my favor.
W has also stated that she doesn't want my money (401(k), IRA, etc.)or stuff and I don't want hers either.
I guess we'll see how things go before any drastic decisons are made. So far, we have all been existing in a very amicable and friendly way.
She shares her events of the day with me, we both prepare and serve dinner to the family. We went to the cider mill for a nice Fall outing last weekend. We're all going to my sister's big Halloween party for this weekend.
I'm trying to give her space and not prying anymore, as I know that really pisses her off and is one of the reasons she stated in her letter for not wanting to be with me.
So, for now it seems ok, but I don't know when or if she'll file for D.
Vince B M=10 yrs T=13 yrs M45 / H 44 2 Boys 5 & 8 D Day: 7/16/13
I've been feeling alot of anger over the past few weeks. I'm realizing that W is going to file for D. She has begun to close herself off a bit and doesn't share much with me.
We are in separate bedrooms and I get a generic good night and hi in the morning.
I've found literature and pricing on condos, townhouses and storage units among her stuff. She's also gotten together with a handful of her girlfriends, individually, for lunch over the past couple of weeks. Two of whom encouraged her to leave me during her first affair.
So, I can assume she's looking for support and encouragement that she's doing the right thing. And, I'm sure she's getting plenty of their blind guidence!
I saw a text to one that said she's looking for a place and will file for D soon.
So, that's where I am. I spoke to an attorney and got some info, but I can't afford the $5,000-$7,000 to retain him. I've been looking online at a free divorce guidence site which provides the forms and information for answering a divorce complaint and countersuits.
Still hoping W is planning to leave my assets alone and not challenge my staying in the house.
I'm a little confused on how to behave right now. Should I try to talk to her about her plans and hammer out some agreements?
Maybe go dim and act like I'm on my own?
I don't know. Suggestions??
Vince B M=10 yrs T=13 yrs M45 / H 44 2 Boys 5 & 8 D Day: 7/16/13
I would worry a little (a lot!) less about "how to behave," and a whole lot more about retaining an attorney. I see that Theoden's excellent advice to you above was not only not followed, but you didn't even respond to him.
Is there a family remember you can borrow the legal funds from? A 401(k) you can tap? Something you can sell? Take out a cash-out re-fi on the house? ANYTHING??
I'm afraid your wife is about to take you to the cleaners in her current state, and with the voices she is listening to in her friends. Please do what you can to protect yourself!!!
Still hoping W is planning to leave my assets alone and not challenge my staying in the house.
You can hope, and you should pray, but sitting around with your finger up your a** while your wife is preparing for a divorce action is going to get you fleeced.
I'm a little confused on how to behave right now. Should I try to talk to her about her plans and hammer out some agreements?
You should,
1. DECIDE WHAT YOU WANT.
2. State what you want.
3. You can state what you want in one of three ways:
A) Get a good divorce attorney (this means war) B) Get your wife to agree to work with a mediator (cheaper) C) Get your wife to agree to get 2 collaborative lawyers. there's a type of law called collaborative law. That means they agree they won't fight it out in court.
Maybe go dim and act like I'm on my own?
No...you are more acting like a deer caught in the headlights. You are about to get hit by a Mack truck driven by your soon-to-be ex wife, her lover(s) while she is egged on by her piece of sh*t friends suggesting she take you to the cleaners. You are about to lose your home, your assets and your children. Certainly to your wife, quite possibly to another man.
Your marriage is pretty much over. Take charge of your life NOW. You get to decide what your life is going to look like from now on. If you don't, your wife will. You are still in denial. The longer you wait to state what you want, the more your life will plot and ruminate and drag you through the deepest hell in your life.
Hi all! Just an update: My wife has moved out and will file for uncontested divorce. I keep mine, she keeps hers and the kids spend half the week with me and half with her. No lawyers, no problems and a Quit Claim Deed!
Vince B M=10 yrs T=13 yrs M45 / H 44 2 Boys 5 & 8 D Day: 7/16/13
If this is what you consider to be an "I told you so" post, I will believe it when I see it, actually written on the paperwork.
I would also tell you that you should run any "uncontested" divorce agreement by your own attorney before signing ANYTHING, but then again you've never listened (or even replied) before, so I suppose you'll probably just do what your feelings tell you to do anyway, so I'll save my breath.
My intent was to share an update regarding my status. I'm feeling really good right now and we have been extremely ammicable through this process. We've never had any knock down drag outs in our history and have always discussed matters in our lives as adults. I realize there are many in this community that have had some significantly negative and devastating outcomes to their situations. I have been confident and continue to be confident that after 12 years with this woman, I have some idea of who she is and how she will proceed. This site and the community helped me through the thoughest times and I'm glad there are people like you on here. I also think that all situations are not the same regardless of how many times the shoe fits! I will conitnue to update and be happy to share the final news when all is said and done.
Doubledown
Vince B M=10 yrs T=13 yrs M45 / H 44 2 Boys 5 & 8 D Day: 7/16/13
