I'm so done, someone talk me out of leaving

[I.M.Out]

Hi everyone, been lurking for quite a while, doing lots of reading. Have read DB, DR, SSM, plus a long list of others. Been married for 15+, 3 kids: high school, middle school, and grammar school.

Marriage was characterized by SSM for 10 years or so, (wife has no sex drive). We followed the typical dynamic that results where we both withdrew. W eventually started having affairs about 5 years ago and I found out about everything 3 years ago.

Bomb dropped, W wanted D. I was able to get her back to the marriage by pursuing and persuading, but she came back with a "take it or leave it, I'm not making changes" attitude, although she has stopped having affairs (yes I'm sure).

Since then things have been up and down, overall very slowly improving, but mainly because I've been letting go of the hope that anything will change.

W struggles with anger, she is up and down and will start yelling at the drop of a hat some days and other days be unflappable. Kids take the brunt, I usually get silence when the anger is up. She absolutely refuses to get help or talk to a professional about anything. If I ask her to work on the M or do anything to help herself, she'll do the opposite to spite me and resent me for asking for days.

Some days she's fine. 60% of the time she's difficult to live with and I feel like I don't matter or barely tolerated, 30% of the time she's "fine" and 10% of the time she's happy and things are reasonably good.

I have come to realize that I'm just not getting my most important needs met. There is no affection I don't initiate. There are no kind words. I generally just feel tolerated.

When other women pay attention to me or compliment me, I feel like a starving man that was just offered a morsel of food, I desperately want more. It awakens what I realize I'm missing -- any kind of positive affirmation at all.

I feel terribly susceptible to having an affair of my own -- I feel painted into a corner -- there seems to be nothing I can do to draw her into the M, she doesn't want to do any work on herself, and my modest needs go unmet.

I don't think she's mean, I think she's incapable in her current mental state, things are "good enough" for her, so she doesn't want to go digging around and stirring up bad feelings because the potential improvement isn't worth it to her. I don't think her mental state is because of me or the M, I just happen to be here.

I know people here usually immediately ask "what did you do wrong" and "what have you done to try to meet her needs". "You can only change you, etc. etc."

I do hope you will believe that I have explored that road fully. I have done extensive IC and solo MC, consulted with other coaches and experts. The unanimous conclusion is that I've done all I can do. Any form of R talk makes things worse, so I've been advised not to do it, ever. I have to believe I can do more despite this feedback, but I'm at a loss and frankly, I'm just pretty much out of steam.

I'm so ready to be with someone who will truly *enjoy* being with me, and appreciate what I can do for them. Being tolerated is no way to live.

I fear the impact leaving will have on the kids, and I'm sure it will hurt financially very badly, but I'm just feeling crushed with no where to go.

I find myself frequently browsing real estate ads and looking at dating sites. I'm just feeling on the verge of completely checking out.

Any advice?

[KarenR]

I am sorry you are in this situation. Before you walk away I suggest that you talk to one of Michele's SSM coaches. Not only are they experts in helping people dealing with intimacy issues, your coach will help you come up with a different approach than you have used before that is most likely to get a chink in 'the armour' your wife has put up. I would be happy to talk to you further. Take good care.

[Ambivalent]

Hey IO,

I'm going to be very blunt, no hostility just blunt.

You say you are you are done, but you want to be talked out of it, why?

You've been lurking, how long?

Say you're in a sexless marriage, none or not the amount you'd prefer?

She's had affairs, emotional or physical?

If physical then she HAS a sex drive.

Women have sex when they feel safe. When they feel close.

Men have sex to express closeness and to connect.

She sounds VERY angry.

Do you still love her? Do you want to work? Or do you want to stay for the kids?

These are some tough questions, think them through before answering.

When she is intimate with you, can she reach climax, or do you think she is? Do you both focus on each other or yourselves?

Is reaching climax a goal for her or you? What happens with disappointment , how is it expressed? Can you verbalize this or does she verbalize this? Have you tried writing her a letter to express how you feel about sex? Can she write and express herself without going to anger?

How do you think she would respond to a last resort, are you detached enough to try it? Are you in different bedrooms? You say you don't initiate, is this because you are tired of being rebuffed?

What are her love languages? Have you ever asked her what it is that gets her motor running, and does she feel safe enough to tell you? Does she know her body? Take AD's, or any other meds? Has she had her hormones checked? I'm still leery on the lack of drive, due to the affairs.

Who pursues in the relationship and who tends to withdraw? Who generally initiates with sex? Was it that way in the beginning? When you two were first intimate, who initiated?

How much time do you spend with work? How important is your family to you, and how much time do you give them? Your original family...are they a part of your life? How do they feel about your marriage to the woman you love? What relationship does she have with your parents, siblings?

How often do you spend time with male friends? Do you do any regular activities with them? Golf, basketball, pool, poker, bowling, soccer, tennis...etc.?

What activities do you schedule to do with just you and your wife? You and the kids? You and your whole family (wife and kids)? Who is primary caretaker? How are the chores divided up?

Has this ever been discussed, the activities, chores, raising and disciplining the kids?

All of this plays into a woman's drive and feelings of appreciation, energy...

I know I hit you with a lot of questions, and I don't expect an immediate response. Take your time and try and answer the questions honestly. IF you really don't know, say it, don't guess or assume, say IDK. You may get some answers just from being completely honest with yourself. Check the ego, and try to dig deep.

Good luck and big hugs.

[Ambivalent]

Oh yes, when I say discussed, I mean really discussed. Not a sentence here and there. Out to dinner, alone, sitting at a table and discussing it.

Nowhere to run, or phones, computers, kids. Just the two of you.

[I.M.Out]

Hi Ambivalent, thank you for your post, I really appreciate it!

I'm going to be very blunt, no hostility just blunt.

Bring it!

You say you are you are done, but you want to be talked out of it, why?

Because I believe in marriage and am tortured by the fact that I don't seem to be able to make this any better. My God, I feel like I have left no stone unturned, it becomes just desperate resignation, and I would rather have more fuel put in the tank. Does that answer?

You've been lurking, how long?

Few years, on and off. Spoke to a DB coach at one point. First time posting. Lots of reading.

Say you're in a sexless marriage, none or not the amount you'd prefer?

I didn't say that, I said I was in a sex-starved marriage. According to the book, that means you have a desire gap where the difference really bothers the high drive partner.

After W agreed not to get divorced we did discuss this and she agreed to more sex, but said I should not expect her to enjoy it. She's do it for me, but there are rules. I'm not allowed to discuss sex in any way, ask any questions about it, and make no effort to have her enjoy it. In many ways I feel like I'm living with an escort. We have sex, when I feel I need it, but it is not fulfilling, it is not connection.

She's had affairs, emotional or physical?

She was in it for the emotional. If it got physical, it was because she wanted to maintain the emotional. She is not interested in physical.

If physical then she HAS a sex drive.

Women have sex when they feel safe. When they feel close.

Men have sex to express closeness and to connect.

Yes, I have explored this at length. I do not believe she has a sex drive. I don't believe she would want sex even when she feels safe and close. She will agree to provide it, but would not want it.

She sounds VERY angry.

Yes, she seems to have rage issues. She will go into a screaming fit if she finds my daughter has left a sock on the floor. Other days, she'll step over a pile of clothes on the floor without even noticing, or politely ask the kids to put them away. The triggers for it are not clear, it seems to cycle, but it does not seem correlated with her menstrual cycle at all. I took it personally for a long time. I'm finally over that, I don't think it's me.

Do you still love her? Do you want to work? Or do you want to stay for the kids?

That's an excellent question. Let me answer in reverse order. I want to stay for the kids, but am coming to feel I can't live like this. Do I want it to work? Yes. I've been putting in a huge amount of effort for the past few years, and have come to realize that her affairs didn't have much to do with me. I just happened to be there to be a lightning rod for her anger -- much like the sock. She's not in a constant state of anger, it comes and goes. If you look at my original post, 40% of the time she is fine or happy. Do I still love her? I will always love her like you love your parents, your kids, etc. Do I feel "loving attachment" like you would feel for your spouse in a happy marriage? I did for a long time, I'm feeling my tank is empty. I think it could be refilled, but there has been no movement on that front for too long.

When she is intimate with you, can she reach climax, or do you think she is? Do you both focus on each other or yourselves?

She allowed me to give her an orgasm once, then said never ask me to do that again. She does not masturbate. I do not focus on myself, trying to focus on her makes her anxious, angry or sad. If I ask any questions about how she would like to be touched, I get no response. If I push it, she'll get angry. I don't get any non-verbal feedback either, no moaning, no moving to let me know when something is good, really nothing. Trying to guess what she likes and what she doesn't like is just throwing darts.

Is reaching climax a goal for her or you? What happens with disappointment , how is it expressed? Can you verbalize this or does she verbalize this? Have you tried writing her a letter to express how you feel about sex? Can she write and express herself without going to anger?

Great questions. I would say it was a goal before the one time she let me do it. Since then it's clear to me that it's not my shortcoming so it's not a goal. I really just want her to engage in the experience with me, to enjoy it in some way. Disappointment is not expressed. It is always completely dark so facial expression wouldn't be obvious. I'm generally appreciative.

Yes, one of the therapists suggested the written route instead of discussing it, so I did write a letter and explained this. She said she would respond and never did. I also tried a questionnaire format at the suggestion of the therapist that I e-mailed her (do you like when I... (y/n)). She told me she would not respond to that. I asked why. She said doing so would make her cry, did I want to make her cry?

This screamed "this woman has been sexually abused" to me, by the various therapists I have consulted said not to jump to that conclusion, and W denies anything like that ever happened. She was raised Catholic and one of my therapists remarked that the Catholic church has done more to destroy women's sexuality than any organization on earth. Not sure I understand that, wasn't raised Catholic.

How do you think she would respond to a last resort, are you detached enough to try it? Are you in different bedrooms? You say you don't initiate, is this because you are tired of being rebuffed?

Same room, same bed. I didn't say I don't initiate, I said nothing happens unless I initiate. You are putting a lot of focus on sex and I can appreciate why, but that's not the focus of my issue. I'm talking about anything affectionate -- kind words, holding hands, a hug, a kiss, nothing happens if I don't initiate it. If I'm sitting in a room watching TV, she will always sit on a different piece of furniture, but will make conversation. I'm just tired of living this way. Sex is a component, but if we had great sex but I was still treated like this outside of the bedroom I would still be unhappy. I don't think sex is the key here, it's more a matter of feeling loved and appreciated, which I do not.

What are her love languages?

Quality time, almost exclusively. The 5 LL's is really a bit narrow, she also likes to be admired. If I express admiration she really likes that, but obviously it has to be completely genuine. I've gone down that route. I believe that I am contributing according to her love languages and delivering what she needs. She does not seem to have any issue with me. There are no complaints. I've been working on this for a long time, I've read everything.

Have you ever asked her what it is that gets her motor running, and does she feel safe enough to tell you? Does she know her body? Take AD's, or any other meds? Has she had her hormones checked? I'm still leery on the lack of drive, due to the affairs.

I believe the affairs were related to her love of admiration, not sex. No, she will not talk to me about any of this. She does not know her body, she does not take AD's or any other meds. She has not had her hormones checked. She refuses to discuss with her doctor because it doesn't bother HER.

Who pursues in the relationship and who tends to withdraw? Who generally initiates with sex? Was it that way in the beginning? When you two were first intimate, who initiated?

Always me, although in the beginning she was willing and engaged. Stopped after our second child was born. I tend to pursue. She is an emotional distancer and a sexual distancer, which is a unique combination.

How much time do you spend with work? How important is your family to you, and how much time do you give them? Your original family...are they a part of your life? How do they feel about your marriage to the woman you love? What relationship does she have with your parents, siblings?

I work fewer hours than W. Generally I'm at work 9-6, she's at work 8:30 - 7, then as soon as she's home she's back on her laptop, her job is very demanding. My family is extremely important to me, I give them lots of my time. I love doing things with my kids. W typically doesn't join us. She really doesn't like to do anything physical or exercise related at all.

In terms of my parents, they live far away and we don't see them that often. They think W is fine, but don't have a close relationship with her.

How often do you spend time with male friends? Do you do any regular activities with them? Golf, basketball, pool, poker, bowling, soccer, tennis...etc.?

My male friends all tend to be pretty career focused so not much during the week, we'll go out probably once per month or every two months on a week night. Weekends yes I will do things with them, largely physical stuff, sports, etc. but I'm not gone all day golfing on the weekends. A few hours here and there.

What activities do you schedule to do with just you and your wife? You and the kids? You and your whole family (wife and kids)? Who is primary caretaker? How are the chores divided up?

Wife won't do any activities other than going to a movie or going out to dinner. I like to do that once per week, she says that is too much and prefers once per month.

With the kids, I do lots of activities, beach, boating, hiking, biking, skiing, they do team sports and I take them to their games, etc. W does not join, although I always invite her. I ask her what she would like to do with us, answer is "nothing". She likes to take the kids shopping and I will go along.

No primary caretaker, we share. Chores are divided evenly.

Has this ever been discussed, the activities, chores, raising and disciplining the kids?

Yes, at one point W said she felt I was living with too much clutter, so I made a major effort and have addressed that. Parenting wise we are very much on the same page and parent together well. I'm very proud of my kids, they are happy, get straight A's in school, and overall do very well.

All of this plays into a woman's drive and feelings of appreciation, energy...

I know I hit you with a lot of questions, and I don't expect an immediate response. Take your time and try and answer the questions honestly. IF you really don't know, say it, don't guess or assume, say IDK. You may get some answers just from being completely honest with yourself. Check the ego, and try to dig deep.

Good luck and big hugs.

Thanks, hope there's something in there you can work with. I felt this had everything to do with me for a long time. Communication is key, but R discussions never go anywhere. She'll commit to do things and then just not do them, she won't be forthcoming with how she's feeling or what she needs. Most common response is "fine" then staring waiting for me to say something. Like I say, I feel painted into a corner, I'm ready for some happiness and fulfillment, don't see it on the horizon.

[cat03]

Taking in account Ambivalent's advise, that you have tried to have quality time, given space and done all that was possible, there comes a time where enough is enough.
I put up with my ex leaving, having an A, coming back and being a zombie to him leaving and finally having a D. No matter what I did, how I behaved or what I gave he had truly checked out and did not love me anymore.
An R can be saved if the other person is sorry and tries to work it out, sadly, too many here put up with way too much.

I might sound anti-DB but I'm not, I just see too many red flags. It might be time for the LRT, let her go, have time appart, that wakes up many. Now, as much as one years for appreciation and having someone, now is no time to be looking at dating sites or thinking of someone else. I really understand how you yearn to have a loving person around you, I'm still single and have not dated, I hear you. You need to work on yourself first before anything else, don't use a crutch, if you are truly sorry about your A, don't.

[I.M.Out]

Wow this moderation delay is severe! I responded to Ambivalent days ago.

Cat, I have read many of your posts during my lurking and I appreciate your input.

No matter what I did, how I behaved or what I gave he had truly checked out and did not love me anymore.

I don't quite feel that she doesn't love me anymore, she just absolutely refuses to do anything to make our marriage better or different. She demands to be accepted "as is" and if "as she is" is not 100% adequate, then she gets very angry / indignant and/or feels sorry for herself and gets depressed, but none of it motivates her to act.

This might seem like I'm being overly critical, demanding, or pushy, but the opposite is actually true, I've been conditioned to walk on eggshells with regard to my requests. Since she's hypersensitive I don't criticize anything and don't complain either, it's not worth the reaction unless something is seriously wrong. Same for politely requesting any type of different behavior, it's just lighting a wick.

An R can be saved if the other person is sorry and tries to work it out, sadly, too many here put up with way too much.

I agree. After her A I did lots of work on affair recovery. There were some very good checklists for what to do to rebuild trust and intimacy. Sometimes she would agree to work with me on it but would never follow through. In the end, she didn't do any of it. The DB coach I spoke to got frustrated and said W would have to do so little to save this M, but won't even do that.

Now, as much as one years for appreciation and having someone, now is no time to be looking at dating sites or thinking of someone else. I really understand how you yearn to have a loving person around you, I'm still single and have not dated, I hear you. You need to work on yourself first before anything else, don't use a crutch, if you are truly sorry about your A, don't.

I didn't have an A. The point is, I recognize these yearnings for what they are, a severe alarm bell. I haven't acted, but the fact that I find myself drawn to these things indicates that something is seriously wrong with my marriage and a change is needed.

Thanks Cat03

I.M.Out

[Ambivalent]

YYou seem to be detached enough to do some LRT.

Perhaps some going very very dim. Do you have an extra bedroom?

From what you have written, it seems to me she has completely shut down in your marriage. I get the wanting to have an emotional affair, but if she was physical she isn't being completely honest .

If she won't fill out a questionnaire, or write to you, it seems this may perhaps be the only option!

I know my husband taking time for himself to figure things out, snapped me to attention! I wasn't as far along as your wife. I had made attempts years ago to try and address what I needed. He just was not in a place where he could be introspective and was not going to "do" anything out of his comfort zone. I shut down sexually due to feelings I buried.

It wasn't intentional, I just stopped trying to connect with someone I perceived didn't want to work with me and want to do things with me. We had / have a good respectful friendship, and I do express admiration and love. Just didn't feel sexually drawn to him.

If she is dealing with depression, which it sounds somewhat like she may be. She needs to get help. She may also be in one of the stages of MLC?

Are you detached enough to calmly and lovingly write an ultimatum?
These are my needs and I have been trying to work on myself and our marriage now for x amount of years. This is what I need ...I'm moving into the spare room until some things are addressed and acted upon. I am concerned you may have depression, or some physical issues happening of which we may not be aware. This is a problem for me, and if it is a problem for me then it is a problem for us and our marriage.

Then list the actions you would like to see happen that shows she is taking you seriously. That she cares enough about you and the marriage. Possibly request :

She go and get a physical, have a hormone level checked.

See a psychologist and share together why you are having difficulty with this, and why she believes it is okay to live the way you are living?

Possibly see a Gottman Institute certified marital counselor

You both committed to a marriage, to forsake all others. Is it fair and respectful to expect that of you but she has not upheld her end?

Be frank and open with her and if you've been viewing porn or seeking out personals or intimate other people, tell her . This may shock her into really taking you serious. You have said that you seem to be looking at dating sites...this is something she should know.

"After W agreed not to get divorced we did discuss this and she agreed to more sex, but said I should not expect her to enjoy it. She's do it for me, but there are rules. I'm not allowed to discuss sex in any way, ask any questions about it, and make no effort to have her enjoy it. In many ways I feel like I'm living with an escort. We have sex, when I feel I need it, but it is not fulfilling, it is not connection. "

The above comment disturbs me. Why does she feel this is okay? Also, what would be your amount of lovin' you'd like versus hers?

It is easier to rebuff someone's overtures for sex by being distant. She has you walking on eggshells, you may not discuss sex in anyway. You may not touch her, you may not seek satisfaction outside marriage due to vows.

This is not acceptable. This is inhumane . Humans need to be touched. Whether it is connecting with hugs, hand holding , a back stroke, dancing, etc. Her behavior needs to be seriously addressed.

It seems you have been pursuing in your marriage. I strongly suggest you pull waaaaay back. Make sure you don't involve the kiddo's but truly stop initiating any act of service, touch, speak only when spoken to. Really let her know you are there, at the line. Make one more attempt to let her know what your needs are in a marriage, what you expect to change, and that without any attempts to try and work on the marriage, that xyz will happen.

Seek a counselor / psychologist that is outcome based, and DR friendly , so you have someone with which to actually speak about your concerns.

Then the toughest part will be to stick to your guns. Move into the other room, and it may get hostile before it gets better. Because there seems to be anger present , that seems to suggest that there is some emotion / love under her wall. If she is indifferent or refuses to work on anything for say months...then you may need to reassess your options.

I hope this perspective has been helpful. I know I felt at one point that I was not going to get what I needed. I loved my H. and committed to our marriage. I was willing to wait and hoped he would eventually want what I wanted.

His crisis, lower testosterone, and age have now made him reassess what he wants in life, and our relationship. His doctor has suggested he write a list of what he wants and doesn't want. He suggested he share it with me and I'm eager to see the list. Hopefully we are starting towards each other.

It has been excruciating and yet cathartic at times. I hope you and your wife can get through this together. Sometimes couples need to hit each other with a bat to understand the situation is serious.

<3 <3

[I.M.Out]

Ambivalent, thanks, great advice and things to think about, I really appreciate it. You and cat03 seem to have landed where I have, that the only thing left is really an ultimatum followed by an exit.

YYou seem to be detached enough to do some LRT.

Perhaps some going very very dim. Do you have an extra bedroom?

I do, I have done that. The issue I've had is that when I am very very dim I feel abusive and I don't feel good about myself. I feel I am causing W pain, rightly or wrongly, so I have always been the one to mend fences first.

If I do distance, W will eventually pursue a little bit, but it's not nearly enough to form a reasonable equilibrium where I will feel good. We're just very very mismatched in terms of the level of engagement we're looking for.

I know my husband taking time for himself to figure things out, snapped me to attention! I wasn't as far along as your wife. I had made attempts years ago to try and address what I needed. He just was not in a place where he could be introspective and was not going to "do" anything out of his comfort zone. I shut down sexually due to feelings I buried.

It wasn't intentional, I just stopped trying to connect with someone I perceived didn't want to work with me and want to do things with me. We had / have a good respectful friendship, and I do express admiration and love. Just didn't feel sexually drawn to him.

Yep, well described in the SSM book -- the H doesn't engage with the W the way she needs, as a result she's less likely to want sex. Without the sex, the H is less likely to want to engage with her the way she needs and down the drain you go.

If she is dealing with depression, which it sounds somewhat like she may be. She needs to get help.

Her perspective is that she does not need to get help, because these issues do not bother her -- she has accepted herself as-is. She's not looking to be happier.

She is skilled at argument and debate. Her position is this: "I am who I am, I have accepted myself. I need a spouse who will accept me as well. By asking me to change, you are failing to accept me and that makes me feel badly. I don't ask you to change, I accept you as you are."

Are you detached enough to calmly and lovingly write an ultimatum?

I'm close but not there. I have drafted it, it's sitting in my drafts folder. I'm right at the tipping point and wanted to post here first and see what folks had to say. Maybe one more rock to turn over first.

These are my needs and I have been trying to work on myself and our marriage now for x amount of years. This is what I need ...I'm moving into the spare room until some things are addressed and acted upon.

The trajectory for this in the past has been that she will feel badly for herself, then will feel angry with me for not accepting her. She will not address or act upon, in fact, after some time she'll often go the opposite direction out of spite. Spare bedroom is not enough, for this to get better I need to move out so that I am not physically present and then let the cards fall where they will.

I am concerned you may have depression, or some physical issues happening of which we may not be aware. This is a problem for me, and if it is a problem for me then it is a problem for us and our marriage.

Then list the actions you would like to see happen that shows she is taking you seriously. That she cares enough about you and the marriage.

Gone down this route, listed requests. She cried, then agreed to do them, then never did. I followed up twice to ask about when she would be doing them but nothing ever happened. I do think I will need to completely move on before something like this would be effective, but it's probably equally likely she'd just feel sorry for herself and do nothing.

See a psychologist and share together why you are having difficulty with this, and why she believes it is okay to live the way you are living?

I have 3 friends who went down this route, the IC/Psychologist validated the walk away spouse and worked with them to end the marriage to pursue their happiness.

Possibly see a Gottman Institute certified marital counselor

Don't believe that would work unless she's interested in making things better. I don't ever see reluctant spouse scenarios working out well in MC.

You both committed to a marriage, to forsake all others. Is it fair and respectful to expect that of you but she has not upheld her end?

Be frank and open with her and if you've been viewing porn or seeking out personals or intimate other people, tell her . This may shock her into really taking you serious. You have said that you seem to be looking at dating sites...this is something she should know.

This is interesting. I would imagine that would just put me in the oppressor, bad guy role versus creating a call to action. It would play into the "you don't accept me as I am" argument.

"After W agreed not to get divorced we did discuss this and she agreed to more sex, but said I should not expect her to enjoy it. She's do it for me, but there are rules. I'm not allowed to discuss sex in any way, ask any questions about it, and make no effort to have her enjoy it. In many ways I feel like I'm living with an escort. We have sex, when I feel I need it, but it is not fulfilling, it is not connection. "

The above comment disturbs me. Why does she feel this is okay? Also, what would be your amount of lovin' you'd like versus hers?

She feels it's okay because "that's how she is, and you can't change a cat into a dog". My amount of lovin' would be 1.5 times per week. She says never, but when pushed says maybe once every 4 months. We did go for 18 months once with no sex because I stopped initiating and she didn't notice. When I pointed it out to her she didn't believe it, wasn't even on the radar.

It is easier to rebuff someone's overtures for sex by being distant. She has you walking on eggshells, you may not discuss sex in anyway. You may not touch her, you may not seek satisfaction outside marriage due to vows.

This is not acceptable. This is inhumane . Humans need to be touched. Whether it is connecting with hugs, hand holding, a back stroke, dancing, etc. Her behavior needs to be seriously addressed.

Thank you for saying so! I agree with you. Ignoring sex, the rest of it is torture. I feel barely tolerated, and I'm very very tired of living that way. You see the bind she has me in with the "you're not accepting me" argument right? The "why do I need to change to make you happy?"

It's a very strong and very valid argument applied to a situation that is out of control in my opinion, but I'm not sure how it's best countered. I can easily argue the other side -- you should feel accepted by your spouse, you shouldn't be made to feel inadequate.

I had never believed in fundamental incompatibility, but I do now believe we are simply incompatible.

It seems you have been pursuing in your marriage. I strongly suggest you pull waaaaay back. Make sure you don't involve the kiddo's but truly stop initiating any act of service, touch, speak only when spoken to. Really let her know you are there, at the line. Make one more attempt to let her know what your needs are in a marriage, what you expect to change, and that without any attempts to try and work on the marriage, that xyz will happen.

Yes, I acknowledge that I cannot do this while in the same house. I have gone down this road and been out-distanced every time. For this to be effective, I need to move out, or have her move out. To do that, we need to find a second place to live, and this will turn the kids' lives upside down. It's truly stepping off the cliff and I see that for what it is.

Seek a counselor / psychologist that is outcome based, and DR friendly , so you have someone with which to actually speak about your concerns.

Been down that road for a couple years. Tried 3 different counselors. The outcome has been "there's nothing wrong with you, you just have a crappy marriage" Then they try to help me improve the marriage with a solution-based focus, then they give up.

Then the toughest part will be to stick to your guns. Move into the other room, and it may get hostile before it gets better. Because there seems to be anger present , that seems to suggest that there is some emotion / love under her wall. If she is indifferent or refuses to work on anything for say months...then you may need to reassess your options.

I'm not doing that for months, I went through that after BD and I'm not doing it again. The next move is out.

I hope this perspective has been helpful. I know I felt at one point that I was not going to get what I needed. I loved my H. and committed to our marriage. I was willing to wait and hoped he would eventually want what I wanted.

Extremely helpful, if anything you've reinforced my belief that I need to leave.

His crisis, lower testosterone, and age have now made him reassess what he wants in life, and our relationship. His doctor has suggested he write a list of what he wants and doesn't want. He suggested he share it with me and I'm eager to see the list. Hopefully we are starting towards each other.

It has been excruciating and yet cathartic at times. I hope you and your wife can get through this together. Sometimes couples need to hit each other with a bat to understand the situation is serious.

I wish you the best of luck, thank you very much for your help.

[Ambivalent]

Acceptance of who she is, this is her mantra. Was she like this prior to marriage? When did it change if it was not? The less she has sex, the less she will desire it.

If you entered a marriage having more, and even in the marriage having more, then somewhere along the way something changed.

If it is not a problem to her but it is to you then the marriage has a challenge/problem that needs to be addressed.

Using acceptance of her is a cop out, and she should be called on it. What she is saying is, I'm just fine / perfect and I have nothing to work on.

This is defensive which means she may be stuffing anger. She may not even be aware of what it is yet. If you are comfortable with moving out , and you can accept she may not choose to change, and you can live with the consequences either way, it is your choice. Do you wish to stay with the kids?

Can you do this without appearing as if your are deserting? What concrete steps do you need to see to work this out?

Something like:

See a sex therapist

Start doing homework

Does this sound right?

Doable?