Mr. Bond, thanks for that feedback and observation.
I think your right, and I need to think about this. By "close" I mean that we spend time together, do things together as a couple and also as a family.
Are we intimate? Yes and no. This week she was away for 1 night, and she texted me when she arrived, and included a "I miss you." Then later that night she initiated a sexting exchange (and we joked because we were not very daring, our sexting was at a PG-13 level :D) We do discuss other things than our relationship. About 2 months after she found out she was rejected from the university, she told me about her ideas and thoughts with respect to her career.
So we are intimate up to the last few yards. IDK, if this makes sense. Do others consider this being intimate?
Things have been going well for me and my marriage. Over the past 6 months, things have improved. My W is more engaged in family, she seems less depressed, we interact nicely, we go out together, make love, she invites me places, we went out recently to a friends and a large group watched a movie afterwards and she let me put my arm around her in front of her friends. Then, last week on Friday she went out with some girlfriends from her work, who are much younger than her. She had a good time and came home very late, about 1am. She was very happy, came in bed naked and started talking me up. I was tired in a not in the mood. She told me two things. She said how her mother told her she would never do better than me – I know her mom likes me. She then told me very softly, “I love you.” Well, its been a long time since I’ve heard those words. I asked how many drinks she had, and she told me 4 over the entire night. She was slightly drunk.
Anyway, I’ve reread the Divorce Remedy book and I need to start asking for what I want, which is a chapter in her book. I also want to slowly start engaging my W in relationship discussions. So last night, I made us dinner and we ate alone after our 3 kids went to bed. We were talking, and then I brought up what she said the other night.
Me: The other night when you said that you loved me, I asked if you were drinking because it’s been a long time since you’ve told me that.
I forget what she said, it was something to the effect of why am I making a fuss out of it. She then changed the subject. After 5 minutes of something else, I guided the conversation back,
Me: I have confused feelings, on the one hand I’m happy but on the other hand, after you telling me the opposite for so long, I’m a little depressed too.
W: I never said that I didn’t love you.
Me: Yes, you’re correct, you never actually said it, but you’ve done 100 things that show it.
W: silence for a few and then a hundred? Really? (she makes a face as if I’m from Mars and don’t know what I’m talking about)
Me: 7 months ago you fooled around with that surfer dude one night, you told our friend that you were only staying with me for the kids, and I gave one more example.
W: when did our friend tell you that?
Me: it was a year ago.
W: I don’t want to talk about that. It was what I was feeling at the time. What do you want to hear from me? ….
I told her that it would mean more to me if she said she loved me when she was sober. She joked that the opposite should be true. I disagreed. I also told her, after she said “what do you want me to say?” that I would like if she acknowledged that I’m not crazy, apologize, say she’s happy to be here. She didn’t apologize, she downplayed everything as if it didn’t happen. She then put her head against mine and said “I do love you.” Our conversation, for what it was, ended. Soon after we went to bed.
Any thoughts? My W is not quite out of MLC. She is apparently not ready to talk about it. It is interesting her take on things. My W has a great memory for these things, so her version is a really altered reality. I’ve read on this board how a MLCer will say things to friends, etc. to test ideas out loud. She did this many times.
I feel that to build a stronger relationship, we'll have to start discussing our relationship and what we each want from it. I'm patient and will wait before I instigate another conversation like this.
Things sound good, and yeah, sounds like she isn't ready to go there quite yet in any big chunks. My W has implied the same, in round about words, and definitely in actions...take it slowly.
You dropped some truth darts and seeds, now just water them for awhile by keeping up the positive actions and interactions, building positive memory terrain for when she is ready to go "there", imo.
She is probably processing what you said, and trying to see how it fits with her remembered (or not, my W doesn't remember sooo much! And she is like your W, normally very detailed memory of these sort of things) reality.
I would keep in mind that, YES, her time in MLC is a very different and distorted reality, but slowly things will be remembered more correctly...something I told to another person here, that it's like going out and partying way too much, doing crazy stuff and not remembering due to blackouts...people tell you what you did and you are floored, embarrassed, etc. And you don't remember at first, but overtime the brain reconnects the memory neurons and you start to remember...well that's how it appears to be playing out in my sitch.
And when those memories are put back together correctly for her? THAT is when you will need to be the best, kindest, most compassionate, forgiving man you can be...
The post "Musings from AmyC" gives great insight into that, I am seeing some of that in my sitch.
Man, I would love to hear those words, good for you!!
In the depths of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer. - Albert Camus
Uncertainty is the very condition which impels people to unfold their powers.-Eric Fromm
I reread the Divorce Remedy, and I realize that since my situation has improved, one technique which I have not used, is something I should start using. The technique is what she called "ask for what you want in action-oriented terms." I did this earlier this week about my W's going out during the week. As my W has been working diligently to expand her circle of friends, she is going out more and more. Sometimes 3 times/week. It's becoming too much. Sometimes, I'm with her, but more often I'm not. For example, on Monday she went to the gym, and then went out afterwards with friends to a bar and returned at 10pm. I'm home with the girls doing everything and then after they're in bed, I'm alone.
So I've had enough of this, and I told her in a non-confrontational type of way. My goal was to set a boundary that she not go out more than once per week. She resisted, saying sometimes it's "spontaneous" and she needs to go out to keep friends, ... So I'm not sure whether she will stay with this, or how long. She did say OK, but it was a dejected, depressed type of OK.
At least, we were able to discuss this issue, which has been an issue for the past 18 months, and discuss it without fighting.
After more than a year of DB-ing, I've become less anxious about the W and the marriage. I don't know how a person's MLC runs its course, but for my W, she is on the downward slope. She seems no longer depressed; she no longer seems like she wants to get away from me; she spends time with family/kids; she friended me on FB; she asked me to lunch during the work week; she involves me in activities; and when I ask her to stay home she does.
I say she is on the downward slope because she has changed. She is still very physically active with gym, Crossfit, and other activities. She still wants an active 20-something lifestyle of going out and socializing. She has two 24 year-old girlfriends that could be our daughters. She wants to try many new things. This week it is surfing.
She no longer does things that she used to enjoy. I asked her recently why she doesn't read books anymore. She used to read 1-2 books/month. She told me that whenever she sits down to read a book, she feels like she is wasting time. She could be doing something...
I am slowly unwinding some DB-ing techniques. I used to give her a lot of space and follow Sandi's 37 rules in the newcomer's forum. I think doing so helped immensely. I now initiate things with her. I show love physically and in other ways. If something really bothers me, I tell her and tell her in action-oriented terms what I want.
I still exercise, always try to look attractive (the physical is important to her, and truth be told, to me too), I do give her more space than before BD, I avoid complaining about things she does (except if it really bothers me), and I try to use positive reinforcement.
What is lacking? Sometimes I feel like a cruise director that has to keep her entertained all the time. Just sitting home and relaxing would be nice. She goes out too much, sometimes 3-4 times each week. I told her recently, and she stopped, but I know it is killing her to stay home. She still texts people frenetically. She wants a large social circle. After more than a year of her showing she didn't love me, I feel as if I need her to say she loves me every other day -- she doesn't. Although she has told me that she loves me 3 times this year (yes, pathetic that I know how many times). Unfortunately, it always was after drinking alcohol. I mentioned this to her in the morning, and she said that I should take it as meaning more since alcohol loosens inhibitions ... not so sure ... but I do believe she loves me.
In a few weeks is her 43rd birthday. She is throwing herself a party, which strikes me as odd. As if she's one of my daughters having a b-day party. About 20-30 people are invited, only 3 will be older than us since she has sought out a younger crowd. Also, most of her peers (married women with children) don't want to go to the gym, out drinking, surfing, like my W does now.
So I'm holding in there, things have improved, and I'm waiting/hoping that this stage will gradually wind down and we can enjoy both an active life-style but also just sitting around together.
Thanks for the update FC, I'm glad to hear things are on the upswing. MLC sure takes a long time to work through, doesn't it?
I too am moving into "ask for what you want", initiating, and voicing complaint's. For a M to work this is a must have. So if she is responsive, that's a great sign!
You say W goes out too much. Does she tell you about her times out? My W does and I encourage it. I feel close when she is comfortable telling me about "her" world. So, since you "know it is killing her to stay home", maybe loosen up a bit and try to be part of it. My guess is it will play out quicker if you allow it to.
Oh, and regarding the wanting to hear ILY. We all want what we don't have. My W and I are not physical, so I want that. Others have a spouse who is not present, so that's what they long for. The list goes on. See how that works? I find that when I instead focus on the good parts of my sitch, I'm happier and more present for my W, which makes her feel better and lessons the chance of her looking outside the M to have her needs met. You're doing great!
M: A really long time. Crisis: 5 years. She's still worth it.
Life is never made unbearable by circumstances, but only by lack of meaning and purpose. -Viktor Frankl
Was my W's 43rd b-day. Last year for her b-day she went out with her friend and didn't celebrate with us (me and 3 girls). This year she stayed home with us, I made dinner and she talked with me, the girls friends were here and when the father came to pick them up, we invited them to stay for dinner. We ate dinner, gave my wife a cake that I baked with oldest D. I had flowers sent to her office earlier in the day. We went for a walk, put the girls to bed, she texted friends while I relaxed, we went into hot tub, and then watched a TV show. Overall a nice time, in fact my W just before bed thanked me for a nice b-day.
Last year the 28 year-old girl that she went out with for her b-day is no longer my W’s friend. My W doesn’t know why, but for some reason this girl stopped returning W’s text messages. My W told me that she always thought she shouldn’t stay friends with this person because of all the problems she had. I know the reason my W stayed friends with her was because my W wants to go out, drinking, partying and having fun – none of her married friends will do this with the frequency she wanted to so her only option was the 28-year-old, unemployed, alcoholic friend.
In the summer my W because friends with another young girl also of 28 years. She was telling me that she doesn’t think she wants to be friends with this person anymore either. She said this friend doesn’t have her things together, is aimless and has no purpose in life, and my W doesn’t want to be friends with people like that. I find this amusing for a few reasons. First, my W acted like this girl was her soul-mate or sister when they first became friends. As recently as this past Christmas, the girl was here visiting for a weekend, and my W acted like they were in college hanging out together. Second, I think my W is putting her ideals onto these younger friends. My W regrets her career choice (although she has a good career) and this girl was going to pursue what my W said she wanted to do. I guess my W was living vicariously through this girl, and now that this girl quit school, my W is losing interest in her. Finally, my W said she didn’t like people who can’t finish things, my W has started many things, mostly hobbies, in the past few years that she has dropped. I guess it is a little different because they are hobbies, but I thought it was a little hypocritical.
What is funny to me is that my W is throwing herself a b-day party on Saturday to which she has invited about 25 people, just about all of them younger than either of us. It is an adult-only party. I guess she became a little embarrassed for throwing herself a b-day party, not every guest knows it is her b-day. Instead she changed it to a first day of spring party. My W wants a very active social life and this continues.
My W still does jiu-jitsu and next weekend she is going out of town to see a fight with 3 guys that she has become friends with through jiu-jitsu. They will be staying overnight, and they rented a single room. During our walk, I found this out and told my W that I thought it was inappropriate that she would spend the night in a room with 3 guys. She took the position that “we’re just friends” “they are married or have girlfriends” and similar arguments. I didn’t make excuses or plead with her – I just held firm that I didn’t think it was appropriate and I didn’t like it. She agreed to rent a separate room.
All week, my W came home after going to gym without going out. This was good and something that we had talked about. All in all, my W is making a real effort on our relationship and responding to issues with going out. On Monday, she would normally have gone to the gym, but our D10 had a school event that I took her too, and my W stayed with the other two (D13 and D7). Actually, my W took them shopping for an outdoor table that she wanted to get before her party this Saturday. I think a year ago, my W would have gone to the gym, and I would have taken all 3 girls.
I think my W is still in MLC, but it is cycling down. I also think we have a more balanced relationship where we both have individual interests, husband-wife interests, and family interests. We give each other space now and then, which makes for a better relationship. I would say 3 years ago, we had little in the way of individual interests. I say my W is still in MLC because she has this need to do many things. She tries things on. She will be hot and heavy for something, goes all out, and then frequently it fizzles and she moves onto something else. What is interesting is that she either seems to forget some of the things she has done when deep in MLC, or she intentionally pretends it didn’t happen. This occurs to me when she talked about her young GFs and when she was telling me going away and sharing a hotel room with 3 guys who were ‘just friends’ was no big deal. When she was infactuated with a guy she told me they were ‘just friends’ and she had other ‘just friends’ that she flirted with and said inappropriate things to.
