I have loved my H and tried so hard to be the perfect wife and friend to him but I am nearing the end of my stamina to keep trying to rebuild a friendship and marraige from this shell of a life to something better.
I feel such horrifying shame that his family and my family (and friends) know that he basically doesn't give a crap about me anymore. They know he treats me like crap emotionally. I have no idea if he has had an affair or an emotional affair but he does none of the 5 love languages towards me anymore. His basic attitude is that I may be around but just ignore me. He gives no kind words. He gives no kind actions. He does not touch me. He rarely speeks to me. He seems to hate every thing I do and I feel constantly critisized by him!
I feel so ashamed that everyone knows how he treats me and that I am still here taking this crap.
I am the one to defend him though! I am the one who excuses our pain due to the many horrible experiences we have both endured. I am the one to support him despite (both) of our depressions and feelings from this Hell of outside events we have lived through.
I am the one who has been his friend despite all the Hell. It isn't hse genetic family who has been there. It is ME. And yet to his genetic family who is NEVER there for him (or rarely there for him) he is the loving, kind, funny person who I married.
He walks around like he hates me and I am so dang tired of honoring this man and loving this man who treats me with such dishonor and makes me feel worthless and who doesn't care that my family and his family are judging US each time he blatently disses me even when they are around.
I am ready to walk away. I don't forsee him reversing this pattern towards me and at this point, I am growing tired of loving a guy who basically doesn't love me in return and doesn't show love towards me. He's just cold as ice to me. It's horribly painful to watch him love and joke with people who have not been there for him while he disses me who has. I'm lonely. I'm tired of being isolated, walled off. I am tired of defending HIM and pretending that I don't care about what he does. I am tired of protecting him from people being mad at him for how he treats me. I am tired of defending myself for staying in basically a cold cold environment. He's not physically abusive and he rarely says horrible stuff to me. It's just lonely and cold and I miss the old him and our old relationship and it hurts so much when I see him treating others like he used to treat me.
Hi Summer, I have a few thoughts I would like to get to, but I really think expanding on your sitch will help us support you, so much more.
First, you have never really expanded on your sitch. How old are the two of you? How long have you been M? How long have you been together (if significantly different)? Kids? Is this a sudden change in him?
Also, did you take in a few sessions with a DB coach? What were the suggestions?
Please help fill in the blanks above, because with only the info we have, the support could be radically different and less appropriate than if we have the full picture.
Married almost 30 years but the last 10 or more have been very bad with lots of stressors--health, family, jobs, etc. No EA or PA to my knowledge. We are both 51. Two adult daughters.
I would be the first in line to say we have both made mistakes. He is a low affect type of person whereas I do cry fairly easily. He used to not be a "hallmark holiday' type of gift giver but he would do special things for me outside of those times but for many years now, he has done nothing.
He is the type of guy when he loves you, you know he does it quietly but is 100% on your side but when he doesn't, then, you're just OUT. I am obviously one of the OUT ones. If he loves you, he teases you and plays games with you. When he doesn't, then you are just OUT...not even there...no teasing, no joking, no fun, no games.
Why have I bothered to stay when it's pretty clear that he would rather love the people in his past who haven't been there for him but he has no love or respect for me and I have given 1000% of my all to him and his children?
I have tried detaching and backing off and so on but you know what? He has never tried to chase me and win me back. Never.
Now, I am just left with the total shame of knowing that EVERYONE sees how he treats me, judges me and him, and frankly they are getting mad at him (protective of me) and yet they don't tell him that he treats me like crap. They tell ME that he does as if I can control how he treats me. I don't bring it up with them. Why would I when I am the one defending HIM from their acusations and then they yell at me for making exuses for him! I don't even talk about it becuase if I did, I'd end up in circular brain patterns like what you see on this thread and besides, I don't bring it up because I am trying to HONOR HIM and not share our dirty laundry. (which is why I usually don't post specifics here.)
Many of us have been where you are. I can certainly tell you that I have been there.
You indicate that for many years, your H has done "nothing". Can you think back to when you feel he started to pull away? Was there anything going on in either of your lives that seemed to be around that turning point? A family tragedy, job problems, children, moved?
MWD does indicate there are some M's that can't be saved, and some that probably shouldn't be saved, although she does stress the importance of trying. Sometimes, we simply think that we are "OK" and that while we DID contribute to the breakdown of our Ms, that for the most part, there is little we need or want to change in ourselves.
Do understand that no matter what, your friends want you to feel better. Of course they are going to pinpoint what your H has done wrong. And even though you knew those things, the more you hear it, the more you may feel it simply is futile since "He'll never change". Thing is, people DO change. Sometimes for the worse... and sometimes for the better... that's the risk or benefit of M in the first place.
I'm sure that if I were to listen to someone who was supporting my stbx, I'm sure they could be pinpointing a LOT of things that I did wrong or could do better. My friends... even if they DO give me feedback on my "real" challenges, are unlikely to focus on my negatives and more likely to focus on my stbx's negatives.
Oh. I would say that there has been more hurdles in our lives than in most other peoples' marriages and he hasn't divorced me or me him yet. In fact, despite threats from either party, we have still been in the same house/bed but we are like aloof ships in the night.
And...just got in a fight with someone else because she started with a swipe at him which I called her out on and then she took another BIG swipe which caused me to swipe back just as hard! WHY am I defending HIM? I don't even trust him to defend me against those types of marriage splitters.
And like my original title says, it just makes me feel SHAME about what they see as wrong and having to defend it when it actually is me keeping the hurt to myself in an attempt to just survive.
I have done my best to not say horrible things about him or even the friends/family and their actions. I recognize my flaws and have worked on them. I am actually a pretty good person and I am trying to learn something that my H does a lot better than me and that is to just be able to say "tough luck' or to let it roll off my back like he does.
However, I just want to add that between his iceyness towards me, it's let me to not trust him. With my friends/family making comments about him or me and our marriage, it's led me to not trust them either.
I don't trust anyone at this point. I have a few friends and a life for support but I don't say ANYTHING about this to anyone and I try to stay supportive to him and them as long as THIS topic isn't approached. I try very hard not to bad mouth anyone but right now, I am frustrated, have nobody who I trust who will CARE for me in his stead, and I can't trust them because they are busy saying crappy things about him or giving crappy advise that only serves to express ANGER towards him and make me be a jerk to him which only serves to split up my marriage. No. I am not taking that advice but I sure don't want to have to cope with the SHAME of everyone doing this and not having someone to TRUST.
Hey summer, I understand that you feel like you've had more problems then most.
I'm having some trouble with the vague indications of "more hurdles than most". Combined with the very strong assertions of shame, anger and mistrust. The verbal (or physical?) outbursts from you, in what could be a seriously co-dependent relationship...
Yes. We are safe. No violence. Nothing except coldness and sadness and loss of friendship. And my husband would not ever hurt anyone intentionally. He just isn't my friend anymore.
I shouldn't have posted all that. We are in a health situation now and I think I am just letting family drama and people badmouthing him and me and gossiping about us and his behavior towards me just get to me.
Shame can be a helpful emotion that helps us keep our behaviours and actions and words in check with our moral and ethical belief systems.
On the other hand, shame can be a horribly self destructive emotion that can lead to some very tragic endings.
I imagine you have picked up the "Divorce Remedy" book and understand how DBing works.
What words and actions of yours that have helped cause the breakdown in the M have you been working on changing? And for how long have you been doing those new, positive changes?
I'm sorry about the rambling posts. I was just very upset because I have been under a lot of stress lately with an illness in the family and rudenss and people being judgmental and gossipy which was very, very unhelpful and added to my stress and upset feeling and hurt feelings even more.
To answer your question. Yes, I have read and re-read the book and have even had some appointments.
I have done GAL. I go out with friends more. I try to not rely upon him for anything. I try to not bad mouth him and I also try to not bad mouth myself but that thing about shame is how others make me feel when I know they are talking poorly about me or him or our marriage. I have tried to laugh more. Dress nicer. Be a friend. I signed up for a 5k.
I have tried to not leave the last note of a conversation as a bad or angry one. I have tried to show him more respect. I have tried to make sure I am not 'chasing' him.
Truthfully, I am not sure. I just want to stop treading water alone! I defend my huaband even while in my heart I am very wounded by how I live my life with no emotional support from him, no emotional intimacy and so on. Friends and supportive family are great but they don't replace the heart break of this isolated, cold relationship! I equivicate between being 100% devoted to staying in this lonely marriage no matter because I WANT to be there for him in sickness and health, etc. I just thought it shouldn't be all unfun with no joy between us at all! And when I think like that, I feel tortured staying devoted to someone who obviously doesn't recipricate my feelings.
So how can you help? I'm not really sure. It seems there really is no hope for marriages in general when things get this lonely.
Hi Summer. I feel so sad for you. I have been where you are, and I felt ashamed too. I've spent a lot of time and used my distance from my H to learn some powerful things I couldn't have learned any other way, and I hope I might steer you toward them too.
What struck me in all of your posts was that your focus seems always pointed externally. It's about shame and judgment from other people, and what other people say, and wanting your H or someone else to care for you and give you what you need. It's about wanting other people to talk to him, not to you, about what concerns them, hoping that someone else might talk him into changing. You must feel so powerless, feeling like the control over how you feel is all in the hands of your H and other people.
That sense of where the control is, is a trick of the mind. You can just take it back.
I would strongly encourage you to read Why Does He Do That by Lundy Bancroft. Ignore the abuse word in the subtitle, and ignore the parts that discuss physical abuse, if it doesn't apply.
That book has a section of advice for people who know someone in an abusive relationship and want to help, who see her suffer and know she's not being treated right, and what can they do? The book advises they can do almost nothing until SHE wants and gets help. They can tell her she deserves better, but they can't tell her what to do because it won't work if she doesn't want to or isn't ready to hear the reality of her sitch. And no one, not even an abuse treatment program, and definitely not family members or friends, can change how a man treats a woman...until he himself realizes what he is doing and wants to change with all his heart. Even then it's hard.
So where does that leave you?
You need to build yourself back up. I wish I could hand you some anti-shame spray. You are hurting yourself with how you're framing this. IT'S NOT YOUR FAULT. How he treats you is 100% on him. What other people think or say is about him, not you. Try very hard to learn to either shut them out, ask them to stop, walk away when they reopen the conversation, or accept their help and support... The difference is you control how much of it comes in to reach you, you set your boundaries, and you allow them to help and not hurt you. And what people might be thinking that they aren't coming to you and saying, please stop mindreading, stop worrying about public opinion. If I could say anything helpful at all about how to do that, it's this: is your thought helping you move in a positive direction? If not, shut it off. Take excellent care of yourself and learn to block unhealthy thoughts and worries.
What the friends and family think is their problem, not yours. You need to focus on building yourself up and being whole and healthy IN SPITE of your H, in order to deal with your H.
The good news is that doing that will either help or be neutral in your marital relationship. Becoming whole and healthy, feeling your own feelings and no longer feeling other people's feelings will make you better able to set boundaries with your H that can improve your sitch.
The book I mentioned, to me, illustrated that it is possible to turn something like this around by refusing to accept, excuse, justify, tolerate, explain, or allow it. And sometimes it takes removing yourself from it. Many of the men cited in the book would never have sought to change until their W or girlfriend left them.
You cannot change him or make him want to change, and no one else can either. But you can decide what you will tolerate. Maybe start by writing a list of what you will no longer tolerate, or even just one or two things, and think about what you might say. You mentioned that your responses to him when friends stir you up enough have been to act angry toward him or be a jerk. Prepare other ways of setting boundaries.
Tell him at a neutral time when he seems potentially receptive, that you would like to have more xyz or less xyz, that you will be working on providing this respect to him and will be expecting this respect back from him. Ask him if he will agree to do this - without that part you've only just talked at him. He can disagree. You will learn then what your reality is so you can take actions...if your reality is that he does not agree to treat you with courtesy and respect will you leave? If he does agree, then the next step that is crucial is for you to then outline what you will do if this agreement is broken. Gentle reminder, walk out of the room, go home from his family's, move out for a night or two? If you don't plan on doing anything if he continues to disrespect you, then again you've only been talking at him. And he already knows that nothing will really happen because you've probably already suffered lots of disrespect without taking any action.
In a healthy relationship, you saying how you feel should spark interest in your partner to honor that and adjust his behavior because he doesn't want to have a negative impact on you. You're not in a healthy relationship. It's up to you to use your (respectful, loving) words and your (firm, consistent) actions to respond to your (clear, specific) boundaries about how you will be treated. You cannot leave this up to H waking up and coming around all on his own, or to friends and family talking sense into him. Have you seen already? This does not work. In all the books I've read this did not work for anyone. You must decide how you will be treated and be prepared to make that happen by your actions and words. Not angry, reactive, punitive words and actions to make him do something different, but loving, clear, respectful words and actions to hold yourself to a minimum standard of human courtesy and respect.
I don't know the exact words to write your boundaries into, only you can know that. I'm just trying to encourage you to take ownership of them. If you do not stand up and say what you deserve, you will not get it...no one else can bestow it on you if you're not willing to demand it for yourself.
I really hope you can see that's where you get your power back, and it will feel good.
Hugs to you, I can see you're going through a lot. Find the people who you feel good and strong around and gravitate to them. Tell people how they can help you, even if you believe the best help is for them to stop criticizing you and/or H. Good luck.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
Thank you for replying. I have read your comment and reread it a few times since it is very detailed. I think I am stressed and overtired with this long-term family illness happening. (Regular illness, not violence. I'm just repeating that so it's clear. There is no violence here to worry about. In fact most peoples' fights have more gusto or words than ours do! Yet they seem to make up and move forward. our fights are more like a cold war.)
Anyways, that evening that I got so angry and posted, I did say something to him, and yes, it was in anger. I told him, "Shame on him. You are so inconsiderate towards me and I am done taking it." And then I expressed that I can't take the shame I feel for DEFENDING him for his coldness, rudeness, icyness or his dissing me me and that everyone sees! I also told him I just had a fight with someone who supported me all those times when HE didn't all because I was defending him. And I told him no more.
Since then, he has at least been less icy, cold, rude, or dissy. It's a start but it's still not acceptable, maybe for strangers but not for married people. I don't like this way of life with him.
Frankly, with most people, I tend to be the relationship nurturer and at this point, I truly am done with it. I'm done accepting second best from him or from so-called friends or family. And my boundary for any friend OR family is NO NEGATIVITY about my husband or anyone else. I have now developed a deep seated anger towards gossip and negativity. I also know that old stupid KARMA thing...what goes around comes around. Well, I don't chose to be the object of gossip or the participant of gossip. I'll be losing a lot more friends.
If I sound cranky and grumpy, it is because I am really beyond exhausted. I'm sure after a few nights of good rest, my attitude will be better. For now, yeh...I guess I am cranky. However, I am trying to draw boundaries and lines and not let drama or gossip pull me into more drama.
Hey there, glad you wrote back. You sound cranky and grumpy but also full of conviction about what you will stand for and where you draw the line. I think that's a good thing. I hope you get some rest. My H was not ever violent either, but he cut me down to a stuttering imbecile with almost nothing anyone could identify, not even me, as objectionable. If he didn't like me, and didn't act nice toward me, it was because of something I did, or some way I was, or that's the way it seemed to me. You'll be OK. Just stand up for yourself like you sound like you're doing here. Learn, though, what is effective boundary maintenance and what is ineffective sniping and griping. I did 20 years of sniping and griping, accommodating and tolerating less-than. It caused him to "fall out of love with me" and leave me. I hope you are able to get what you need. Hugs.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
I did get some sleep so I feel better, plus some of the other stuff that was going on has calmed down too. I did end up drawing a specific line with him about being inconsiderate toward me and/or rude and I said I was done taking it! I pointed out a specific instance (or two) at the time it happened and he has been less rude and inconsiderate since then. I also found the courage to ask for one major thing I wanted that meant a lot to me. I guess I will see what happens. I'll try to be hopeful and not pessimistic. (Expecting good things to come and not bad. It's a hard frame to get into my head since it's been bad for so long.)
And I agree with what was written in the book...the only thing I don't understand is if I am supposed to stop giving birthday and holiday gifts or even an anniversary one. I'm not doing little gifts just any day anymore like I did after reading The Love Dare. I guess that is chasing him. I gather I am not supposed to chase.
Summer, try to have NO expectations at this point in time, rather than GOOD expectations instead of bad expectations.
Considering that you've chosen to post in this particular area of the board, any expectations you have are likely to continue your thoughts of moving on.
Also, considering your past posts, I'm not quite sure enough information is available to offer any type of specific feedback for your particular sitch.
One thing is clear, you've come here because you HOPE that your M can be saved, even though your are posting in this particular forum.
That said, your most recent effort to change the sitch is likely positive. Other than letting your H know about how you feel some of his words / actions are rude and unacceptable, what else are you doing to work on yourself?
Even if you've posted in the past or have been doing 180s and GAL, what 180s and GAL are you doing, right now?
Also, I feel that Love Dare CAN be helpful in certain sitches. Again, I'm not sure there's enough info of the sitch as it stands, to know whether it might work, for you. Have you been doing any of it and if so, do you think there's been any positive results?
And, prior to the breakdown of the M, as far as you can tell when it really started to happen, did your H normally chase you, or did you normally chase him?
We didn't have to chase each other. We were both on the same page. We were both friends, lovers, family, and connected. We were very 'functional' as a team and a couple. We had joy; we had fun. We didn't have to think about who did what. I have posted in the 'newbie' in the past and I am actually thinking about pulling my posts out of this thread as long as rudeness and inconsideration towards me stops. Besides, I know in my heart that I don't have the courage to walk away. I just want better connection and treatment than what I have now and yet at the same time, I don't want to be treated like I am a second class person. In terms of 180s, I think I mentioned those on a different thread. I try to laugh more. I try to make sure I leave the room on a positive note. I try to go out more. I am trying to find more fun activities for myself and go out even if it doesn't include him. I try to not push myself on him or talk relationship issues with him. I try not to involve myself in the family drama and drag him into it. (That part is hard since apparently, I get dragged into things too easily!) I have not chased him or said I love him; I have kept my distance (not phoning or texting or trying to get loving words or actions from him...or giving him hugs or kisses first...allowed him to have his strong boundaries/walls...or giving little gifts...basically doing the things that I want for me!) and I hate that most of all. To me, the acts of love are the utmost importance to my sense of self as a human being and to me and any relationship I have. Being kind and loving is a part of breathing for me. To NOT do this is like trying not to breathe. (And it hasn't worked. If anything, it's simply made the distance between us more permanent.)
Oh. I guess the actual breakdown/disconnection was when my kids were teenagers which was around 10 years ago. (They are 24-25 now.) When the kids were teenagers, they caused us to fight a lot. There was a lot of sibling rivalry and a lot of other personal stuff happening that was out of our control. Their behavior was so antagonistic, drama filled, divisive, and there was no stop. They were doing things that split us up from each other, frankly, whether they or he admits it or not. They may not have intended to, but that's what happened.
I was the caretaker and was drowning in this horrible situation. I would call him or/and text him with needing his help and support over what the kids were doing. I guess I lost him when he got drawn into this whirlwind too. I got the blame from everyone and the kids knew how to manipulate it so that I would get the blame. (Isn't it great to be a mom and a wife?!)
That's when he truly disconnected from me. He used to say a term of endearment towards me but the way he said it was so rude and insincere even strangers could hear it in his voice. I made him stop saying because just hearing the insincerity and the condescension in his voice drove me nuts. He didn't mean it in a loving way and it was very disrespectful towards me. We fought over that too. Then he started just calling me by my name and it sounded as just as horrible as the insincere endearment he used. For too many years, it made me even hate my own name because he said it wish such antagonism and disrespect in his voice. So it was during those years when it all crashed.
Though he finally says my name without all that harshness involved (usually) and things are definitely better than they were back then, they are not even close to where they should be. We've never been able to get our mojo back even though both children are adults now but that's because nobody healed from the awfulness of those teenage years. (And there are other circumstances that prevent complete healing.)
So my 180 I did was when all that teenage horribleness came to a head and when it became clear that he was not able to support me emotionally with all their drama was that I stopped telling him and asking for his help or support. I also stopped fighting with him. I stopped defending myself. I did everything I could to just maintain peace between us. he created walls and boundaries and told me some really negative stuff and I stayed silent and just let him have his horrible walls and boundaries that drove us apart and I hated and still hate every second of it because he never withdrew those walls and boundaries! Now, the the family is not in daily emotional dramatic despair but he never warmed up again.
I posted here because each time his family or my family decide they are going to be helpful and tell me if he is treating me well or not, it is like salt in an open wound and I just can't take it anymore. I live with the pain of this. Do they really think I don't know?
I kept silent to maintain peace and in the hope that he would take down that wall he put between us but he hasn't. I am in despair about that! That's why I posted in this forum. How long can someone truly survive loving someone but knowing that the other person is not able to reach out to you and repair things too?
Anyways, so I guess my other current 180 is me taking a stand like I did that night. Speaking up and saying don't treat me rude and be inconsiderate towards me. I am done taking it. And I asked for 1 thing I really want. (One action from him.)
I don't know how to have no expectations. I have tried to detach but I'm actually one of these people who feels angry or bitter when I try to detach. Detachment is like the death of a relationship and allows very ill will to enter the equation. I can forgive and I have, but forgiveness leads to love and compassion, not detachment!
In essence, my 180 is to act like I don't care that I a marriage in name but not in emotion and my 180 is that I am just moving forward without trying to put this family back together again.
I think I am going to end this thread because standing up and saying stop, and knowing I am going to stand by what I said, moves me out of that shameful moment. Though I still feel shamed when his or my family comment to me, but I guess I will just ignore their words.
Just a quick response as I go through your posts above from this morning, from my skim of your posts.
I think that if you keep working on your own boundaries, the rudeness should eventually stop. You may have to adjust your position / context, rather than your boundaries if people step over them. ie. If you have a boundary that you will not be spoken rude to, then you enforce that boundary by moving out of the presence of the person being rude to you. If they chase you into another room and continue to be rude to you, then move yourself further away from their presence until they stop chasing you. And if they persist by continuing once you return, then you may need to consider actually removing all contact from that person, no matter how you might not like that idea.
That said, it IS difficult to stop showing love to the one we want to receive love from. What is important here is not that you stop showing love, rather show it in a different way that might not feel like it is pressure, yet more importantly, have no expectations that your show of love will be reciprocated. Right now, that is highly unlikely, until and unless your H decides to R.
I'm not very good at setting boundaries, and that goes for him as well as others. (Which is probably why drama ensues and also why my feelings get so hurt.) Thanks for the responses everyone. I think things are calmer now and I am going to rest and chill about all of it. It is what it is.
