My other thread surpassed the century mark a while ago, so I figured I'd make a new one.
My mind is a little more with it now. Today was supposed to be our MC, but seeing as he's in LA, that's a little hard to do, isn't it? So I called yesterday trying to cancel, but they said, "well, you missed your IC on Saturday, would you like to come in alone?"
Hm, I don't know how H would feel about that. OTOH, he knows how much I hate him going to LA, and he has enough pull where I'm sure he could have raised a bigger fuss if he wanted to not go so...
There I was, in the MC's office at 6. Oh, and I didn't cancel my IC on Saturday. She was out of town for a wedding. Believe me, I would have gone had she been there. Anyhow, I went and talked with him for the hour alone (well, with D in tow). I told him he wouldn't be seeing D again most likely because I found a drop-off, pay by the hour babysitting place down the street. Since this most recent revelation, H has been preoccupying himself during the sessions with D. He's conveniently busy with her when I or the T ask him questions. So I'll be eliminating her presence from the sessions. She doesn't go to daycare anyhow, so she'll enjoy the chance to play with other kids. When I told the T about this he said, "yeah I've been noticing he does that too. You don't miss much, do you."
Nope.
The T agreed with me that we should have full disclosure in this type of situation. He thinks I'm doing the very best I can given all that's happened. He foresees me having issues with H and the progression of our M if I don't profusely praise him for effort he's putting forth. And as 25 pointed out, who knows how depressed HE is, so what little effort I see may be HUGE for him (sort of like showering, eating, and getting out of bed are HUGE for me right now).
It's so interesting how one person can change the dynamic in a session. There's a whole school of though on that in family therapy (I can't remember the name of it now), where the argument is that the shear presence of another person can so dramatically change a room that that person doesn't even have to "do" anything to have an effect. I definitely got a different vibe from the T that he is... disappointed?... in H. It felt more like talking with a colleague about a patient than him being my T. I had wondered. I'm sure I look like a tyrannical, crazy B compared to H, who sits there with a blank look on his face most of the time.
I told the T I'm aware that I'll never REALLY know. I asked him what I could do to make H feel more safe about talking about the A and he said, "well, you know, reflective listening, but that's not so easy when you yourself are in so much pain" M: Right. And it pains him to see me in pain.... T: Which makes him want to tell you less M: Right. So either way, I lose. T: Well.... you're doing the best you can.
Great.
H did Skype with us tonight (although poor D was SO sleepy during it... over an hour past her bedtime). At the end of the session he said, "how have you been today" M: Eh, up and down H: Are you happy that I Skyped you? M: Yup H: Maybe we can do a jogging thing on Friday when I get in M: I have a work thing that night H: Oh... right... maybe Saturday then M: Ok.
So he is trying. I'm aware of this.
But he is not.... "better". He has SO much work to do. Like I said previously, I'm terrified what will happen the next time there's some type of life crisis/change. And not even just for me. Given his denial coping mechanism, I'm terrified that he will eventually find a mass of some type of his body and rather than tell someone or go to a doctor, he'll just ignore it until I find him vomiting blood or something awful and learn that he has 3 weeks left to live.
My uncle has put himself in that position. My paternal grandmother died when she was 32. My dad was 3. My uncle was 10. The adults lied to my uncle and told him that my grandmother was going to get better and would come get him, but he realized as they were rushing him via a police escort in the middle of the night that she was dying. He's been untrusting and fearful of doctors ever since. And about 5 months ago he collapsed at his home and found out he has stage 3 colon cancer. He'd been having symptoms for quite sometime, but he told no one and had never had a colonoscopy (and he's over 60 with a family history!). Now he's battling for his life because he just ignored and blew it off.
I've said it before, I'll say it again: I don't understand denial.
Anyone got any tips on killing that (crappy) coping mechanism?
May, not sure if you want me to chime in anymore. Mine doesn't seem to be a popular opinion
But I think you need to stay out of his business there with the denial. What do you imagine you can do about it?
Also, I would take what you established in MC and run with it (and just so you know, I wouldn't go to MC alone again - I think that has the potential to create some paranoia in H? Maybe? Not a biggie, but I wouldn't.)
But yeah, act like you're dealing with a scared animal. B/c you are. I wouldn't solicit. But I would make it very very comfortable for him. Body language, opennness, reflective listening.
I'm not sure how to do it if the subject isn't on the table. But if it gets brought up again - you'll be prepared.
Why do you keep placing you husband in your family's scenerios? And they are always the worst case scenerios?
how about
he skyped you (yay)
he wants to go running with you (yay)
you threw him a roadblock of sorts and he offered another alternative (yay)
you are also, it seems, turning this into some sort of competition...in referencing talking to the therapist you mentioned it was a lose lose type scenerio even and the therapist kept saying you are doing the best you can but maybe the therapist isn't looking at your husband with disappointment...maybe he is looking at your that way
you are not there to judge your husband using your therapist tools
it is hard when we are trained in certain things not to use that in our home life dealings too
but we can't
in this process, you are both damaged and need help from the professionals
you are NOT that professional
you are NOT there to solve your husbands issues or label them for him
and
when you set him up to fail by constantly suggesting that he will run if things get hard, then why wouldn't he??/
why would he try to fight against your PROFESSIONALNESS all the time? your need to label and your all-knowing psychology-ness?
DueinMay, i've been catching up, but in a dark place myself so its been tough.
i agree with Figgeroni. i understand you're angry and frustrated and everything else, but each time you mention H is negative. always negative.
you gloss over how much effort he actually makes towards you, but where is your effort towards him? i see your effort towards yourself, towards what you need, what you want, what you demand of him.
i see a lot of conditional mile-markers, for a lack of better word, "If i knew this THEN i could ..." "If he did this THEN i could..." etc.
which you had done before when he didnt say "I love you" at the time you wanted him to, and then when he finally did say it, you made excuses why it was meaningless.
i'm sensitive to projectionism, because i've done that myself. maybe i seem projectionism in everything.
so i feel as if you're projecting your feelings on him. you call him depressed, but you're also depressed.
you mentioned how his presence changes the dynamics of the T session, but how does your presence change his dynamics in T? I know for me, i shut down during confrontations. its a strong emotion that causes me to blank out, i lose all ability to communicate. fight or flight. i think your presence may cause him to do the same.
"In a ham and eggs breakfast, the hen is involved, but the pig is committed".
sorry, hit submit instead of preview, i had some editing to do. hate the inability to edit.
Everyone works at their own speed, as a professional you know this. but it seems as if you're demanding him to work at your speed, under your conditions. But you know that wont work. you cant force that on your clients, and you cant force that on him, and the pressure you put on him works against you.
but you keep trying, and you simply frustrate you.
there are lots of crazy emotions that go into impending fatherhood.
there is real fear there, fear of becoming your father (if you grew up never wanting to be your father) or fear of not being your father, or not being a good father.
there's the feelings of going from being the most important person in your W's life to being a third wheel type. as soon as your W gets pregnant, the H is pushed way back. now everything is about her and the baby. "your job here is done, now shut up and carry her bags"
no one ever complements a father to be.
a H gets no attention anymore, from anyone. everyone fauns over the mother and her belly.
and all those things cause people to do things outside of their normal behavior. so there's no answer to why H did what he did.
and none of that means he'd do it again. or that he did it at all.
and framing your emotions that he ruined your pregnancy is only hurting yourself.
i got the something similar from my x because i went home to sleep and shower as she was resting in the hospital. so when they brought the baby in to feed at 4am i wasnt there. and even though at midnight the night before x and MIL both told me to go home, to this day "i ruined her birth night because i wasn't there to bond"
of course she didn't think that until she was justifying her PA
but maybe i'm just projecting onto you/him.
its your choice how you view these things. you can choose that it was all ruined, or you can choose that it was just a minor glitch or anything in between.
"In a ham and eggs breakfast, the hen is involved, but the pig is committed".
First, how are YOU doing today? Hope you are getting some rest, if not physically then at least taking a mental break.
In line with Ken's comments (and hopefully not redundantly)
about men and fatherhood, I wanted to add an observation...
I may have said this earlier, if so, I apologize.
But it must be odd for a guy to see a baby IN HIS bed with HIS wife, sometimes nursing very "intimately".
Most men are cognitively aware enough to know that feeling "jealousy" is too weird to admit, which adds another little weird dynamic.
The dad is also supposed to be PROUD and HAPPY about this joyous occasion...and oh, btw, no sex for 6 weeks, at a minimum. And your w is exhausted...if you are really lucky, only SHE will be that tired and cranky, but if not, you both will be...ENJOY!
Forgive me if this sounds like TMI, but I recall my h being VERY interested in watching me nurse our son. At first, He was moved by it, and that really touched me. BUT he also openly joked -- (with a big grain of truth to it, I'm sure)-- that he felt son was "hogging" me...and then I was a bit annoyed w/him but tried to see it from his POV. Yes it was an adjustment for him too.
Add to that (& what Ken was saying,)
and all the protective parts that go with being a man today, all the burdens, if you will, of being the hunter and gatherer and killer if need be, followed by the expectation that He can ALSO be the tender lover...
good grief, it must be just as confusing for them as it is for us. I think A lot is expected of a man today.
***I saw a play that articulated this perfectly so if you win the lottery and have the time, etc...(maybe find the Cliff notes!)
The play is called "Big Love" (NO it's not the TV show and has nothing to do with the LDS or polygamy)
it's by Charles Mee...
Describes what it's like and how it FEELS to be a Man OR woman today... May, See if you relate to any of this or can think of someone who would... I sure did, and so did my h
The mother to be character talked about how pulled she will feel(s) as a mom to be, but she deeply fears living the life of HER "victim" mother, too...
and she craves being a "modern happy fulfilled' woman" (like the commercials say we can be, all at the same time...)
While also being a sexy satisfied & satisfying lover, AND, like or not,
still feeling the maternal terror so many feel just before bringing a new life into our world and maybe losing our own, in some form...subordinating our needs to our child's, our children, our h's...losing ourselves...
I cried when I heard the actress saying this... I KNEW it had to be written by a woman. Alas, it was not.
Then the monologue of what it is to be a man, with those comments above--was acted out by my son. (Yes He's an actor).
The two men fought to the death in the play, and it was hard to watch...yet we expect men to kill or die for us when there's a noise in the night. Ever think of what a scary burden that must be on a man? I rarely do and that's something Inee to remind myself of...
In the play the battle ends in the death of one and then the victor IMMEDIATELY made passionate, TENDER love to his wife...and later, holds and nurtures the baby.
That's a LOT to expect of a man today...especially a new father and a young man. Your h isn't much older than my son, actually...(OMG I just aged myself big time)
So many of our roles conflict... Ironic, but in effect it was my SON, and the show he was in, that taught me more about men - and articulated how I felt as a woman, more than anyone or anything else I've experienced in a LONG time...
Go figure.
The OTHER thing I wanted to ask you was about your h's behavior. I recently attended a seminar on depression for my clients -
Point is, some of their patterns apply to us and our "real" lives.
So, what is your h saying his "position" is lately, towards the m, the baby and life? It's fine if you are not sure b/c his words vary, that's expected atm. HE isn't sure...
tough to make choices when some big ticket items are not known. But what I'm interested in is how his confusion and deep depression (and yours)
creates change in the dynamic and how often it does this. That's a lot of upheaval in one's life, chronically.
HOW often do his moods or stated emotions or "positions" change?
And, when he changes his position or emotionally changes, do his actions show it first OR his words? Can you tell?
When I reached puberty, I suddenly found myself waking up one day a month feeling REALLY down...I'd "look" around at my life and ALWAYS found a situational reason or cause for my unhappiness. Took me a few years (and overcoming my feminist resistance) to admit that I was affected by hormones.
I had to learn to recognize that and control it as best I can.. Same goes for adults who lack the insight into why they feel sad and it's harder for men in the sense that they cannot point to an overt hormonal condition.
At least your h knows he comes from people with a genetic predisposition to create upheaval and crisis in their lives...and to hold grudges. And he IS open to getting help, or he SAYS he is...
Even if his actions don't always follow I think at some level he does WANT to be better. That matters.
He sure sounds depressed and he sounds so confused too. I'd love to see HIM get some space to heal and feel and see what HE goes. I'd love to see YOU get some space and healing time too.
You may be able to give that to yourself...do you see how?
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Not sure what the big deal is about you seeing you mc without your h. Are you going to get them "On your side"? Are you going to "brainwash" them?
Hey If it really bothers your h (which I doubt) then let him see the mc alone too...all he wants.
First off, while seeing a MC alone MAY affect your h - that hardly outweighs the benefit of you going, as opposed to not going. AND FYI - I saw our marriage counselor for over a year without h...he attended MAYBE a handful of times.
IOW I was nearly always alone, getting marriage counselling. And it's a darn Good thing, too.
The mc was a fan of our m and my h, & me. I felt safe with him and h preferred me working with Mc trying to stay m,
rather than letting him go drop off the face of the earth.
Frankly I don't understand the fear of your spouse seeing the mc without you there, or him fearing you seeing the mc without him there BECAUSE mc is
Not a contest in front of a judge.
There are No declared "winners" or "losers"...and seeing a mc on your own
(especially when the alternative is not seeing the mc at all....) is FINE. God knows it helped save my m and a lot of others. I don't know any couples who required both spouses be there for each session OR else...
Does your h see marriage counselling as - adversarial? [b] Does he like or trust the MC?
God, I sure hope he does and I sure hope he does NOT see it as something that will yield a "verdict".
IF he likes/trusts the mc - then I say, you going alone beats neither of you getting help.
And imo, ONE partner in the marriage getting help, is way better than neither getting it. One partner working on the m CAN make a difference in the marriage - b/c if it did not - then what are we doing here on DBing?
Though ESN or Ken, or someone else said, maybe your h is "paranoid" and they would not risk seeing a MC alone again...I so disagree
-for the reasons herein...and May, do you think he really expects you to not go, just because he didn't? That's like him saying "Oh I don't want (or can't) work on our m right now b/c I'm so busy atm, and I forbid you from doing so and if you do...then I will feel.... "betrayed".... what??
I mean, really May? From where I sit,
that's batchit cray cray...
[/i] May-
Again - this is not about being right - but about being happy. Whatever it takes...do it.
(((( ))))
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Hey guys. I’m not ignoring you, I promise. I’ve just been crazy busy. I’ve been exhausted by everything lately too. And I’ve been processing everything you all have been saying. I’ll go from the earliest and work to the latest.
ESN:
Yes, I understand the denial is his business, and therein lies my frustration: I can’t do anything about it. Some people find lack of responsibility freeing. It stresses me out. I know that’s my thing. I’m working on it. I can’t imagine I can do anything about it. If I could do something, I would have done it.
And actually, I think you’re on point about going alone to MC b/c he did sound uncomfortable with the idea when I told him they suggested I go alone (and yes, 25, I think it’s because he’s paranoid and batchit crazy). I knew he would be too. Like we’re going to come up with some conspiracy or something. This is very, very typical though process for H. I doubt I’ll go alone again, and I discussed it with my IC. She said that was unusual for them to suggest that when they know I’m doing IC too, so the receptionist probably didn’t realize I’m being seen for both. So that probably won’t happen again.
Fig:
I get a lot of your post, and yet there’s a lot I don’t get. I get your point about trying to look at the positives instead of the negatives. I get that I can’t be my own therapist or my H’s. I don’t see how you think I’ve turned this into a competition. It’s more of a learned helplessness. Any path I take, it’s f*cked up. I can either not ask questions, in which case I drive myself crazy (and, FWIW, I bought the “NOT just friends” book and while it’s been difficult to read in some ways, it’s comforting in knowing that my reactions are very, VERY typical) which means I lose; OR, I ask questions, and drive H crazy and clams up, in which case, I LOSE.
So yeah, either way, F*CKED. How is that a competition?
And no, I don’t think the T was disappointed in me. I actually got the impression he felt very sorry for me when I relayed to him the panic attack I had that Friday night when we were supposed to go out with friends. And I don’t think I mentioned it, but he said, “well, I think by now, H should have figured out that you are at a point of zero tolerance. He cannot be doing this kind of crap any more”.
And the big problem I think it happening (and I apologize if I’m psychologizing this…) is that HE doesn’t even know who he is! He’s having a big, fat MLC at 29. I let him be who he was this summer and you know who that was? Someone who didn’t leave the house, ate nothing but chicken wings and ice cream, let the house fall to pieces and didn’t ever sleep.
He could barely function without me. And the kicker? He was so GD depressed, he barely remembers it (and if he does remember it, he’s too embarrassed by it to admit it).
I had a professor my freshman year in college once tell us, “none of you are truly ‘living’ right now in your lives. You’re simply ‘existing’. You don’t have the money, the resources, or the life experience to really ‘live’. You simply eat, sleep, and go to school. You will ‘live’ later”. I feel like that’s where he is right now. He’s just “existing”. He’s functioning too poorly for me to classify it as “living”. At this point, I would also lump myself into that category.
In reference to your question about the family members, I suppose I put him those scenarios because they are real stories with which I am familiar. Not some anecdotal tale I heard through the grapevine. Real things that I’ve witnessed. Is that a problem? Are there other specific stories to which you are referring? And the worst case scenarios are just the most poignant stories I can think of. I’m sure I can come up with some less potent cases, but I’m trying to make a point in my writing.
Ken:
I’m glad to hear from you. I’m sorry things have been rough for you lately. Yes, I’m super negative right now about H. It is getting harder and harder each day to be positive about him in any way. Yes, I see the bright spots, and I know he’s trying, but it’s like him wanting me to save money. While I’m sure if I went from saving nothing every month to $100, he would acknowledge it’s a step in the right direction, but he would still be irked that it’s not $750 a month, which is what he wants. I just want him to be better. Now. Yesterday.
And I’m so angry still (and it comes and bites me in the face so unexpectedly sometimes) that I am just fuming with him on a regular basis and not for any daily transgressions. Add those on top and I’m really pissed.
Case in point: he has decided that he does not want to get a house right now, or in the foreseeable future. Wants to just stay in the apt.
I’m sorry, I didn’t sign up for that. Super pissed. I picked this apt under the notion that we would be here for 4 months ONLY. There were a lot of things I overlooked that I really REALLY disliked thinking “it’s only 4 months. I can handle that for 4 months”.
His solution is to just find another apartment. Oh. Great. Another apartment. For who knows how long? Apparently as long as HE wants. And who’s going to pack everything up? Lord knows it’s not going to be him. So once again, it would be on my shoulders to do, which would also make it the 5th…. That’s right 5th… move for me in 12 months (house to Dad, Dad to work suburb, work suburb to house, house to temp apt, temp apt to permanent apt).
I would not have left my house had I known this was what I was signing up for.
But I digress….
Yes, I’m fully aware that my presence manipulates his behavior in a session. One of the many reasons I wish he would go into IC again. And yeah, he definitely shuts down. Remember, that’s his MO. When the going gets tough, he gives up.
I want so badly for him to be a fighter. He talks the talk, but he doesn’t walk the walk.
I know I can’t push him. At the same time, his lack of decisions or rate of growth is not fast enough for other things that need to happen. I don’t think we would have the apt vs. house situation if he could get his psych sh!t together.
Really the only way I was able to tolerate him “doing his own thing” and not pushing was to not be around. Do I really need to move out again for him to get the wake up call that he needs to stop d!cking around and take this seriously? B/c it seems that he’s forgotten everything I thought he had learned from last summer.
Here comes another family comparison, Fig. My mother is a mess. I love her, but she’s a hot mess. Her apartment is filthy. She never knows where anything is. Unless she has very explicit instructions on how to do something, she can’t figure out novel processes (I literally had to write her an instruction booklet for taking care of D over girl’s weekend, which she was so thankful for). I really can only handle my mother is small doses. I love her, but she drives me nuts.
I’m to the point where I feel like this about H. I can only tolerate him in short doses. If we exchange simple pleasantries, hang out for a couple hours, and not need to talk about anything of actual substance, we’re fine. But then when it comes to actual life things, he makes me want to pull my hair out. Does anyone hold on to pain thinking that it will prepare them for the next time they’re in pain? I feel like we’ve discussed this. I feel like I am naturally a very trusting person. Honestly, people have to d!ck me over SEVERAL times before I finally go “ok, done. You can’t be in my life anymore”. But I have done it. I feel like I have to conduct myself like this with H’s family especially. Anything that comes out of my mouth has a subtext of “be careful how you phrase this because you know this will probably come back to haunt you”.
And now I feel like this with H. I feel like I constantly have to watch my back because he just keeps f*cking me. Maybe that’s why it’s so hard to let go. I feel like as soon as I let my guard down and “forgive and forget” he’ll screw me again. Ken, I cannot stop thanking you enough for your male POV. It does help me bring things back into perspective about how becoming a father is hard. I feel like I can sort of relate to his fears of being like his father (I fear becoming like my mother, who was unorganized and screamed a LOT). I try to praise him a lot for being such a good father (which he is), and give him lots of opportunities to do good Daddy duties (it’s become a Saturday tradition to stroll her around the mall while I’m at IC). She is clearly really bonded to him. He’s doing great on the Daddy job.
Wish he would put that much effort into our M.
Arguably he could be showing his love for me via his daddy-ness. But I think in this case they are mutually exclusive.
25:
Lord, I feel like I’m living on a commitment rollercoaster. He hasn’t said he “doesn’t” want to work on things. A few weeks ago he said he didn’t know if he wanted to be in the M anymore or not, and that’s when I called his bluff and walked out of the MC session. He hasn’t really said that since. He’s also not made any major declarations of love lately either. So…. Who knows.
I feel like his moods change as a direct result of what I say/do. I don’t feel like he has any real position on his own in this matter. He thinks he does, but it always changes depending on how I’ve treated him THAT DAY. It’s highly correlated.
Historically, it’s hard to pinpoint a specific pattern (like a monthly thing). I’ve figured out his daily routine (when he does and doesn’t like to engage), but not really any other time frame (like, I figured out for me, I’m chronically miserable in the spring).
But I agree, it appears he WANTS to be better, even if his actions are lacking currently.
My favorite joke: “How many psychologists does it take to change a lightbulb? Only one, but it has to want to change”.
So the shear fact that he want to be better is encouraging. But at this point, talk is cheap.
Man, I’d love to get some space and healing time too. Honestly, I’d love to go into an inpatient setting where I do therapy all day, every day, other people take care of my laundry, my meals, and my free time, and I just get better.
But that would also require someone to do something about my job, my child, my dog, my daily responsibilities. And clearly, H can’t do that currently, so …..
Hey, small victory though, people. Yesterday was the first weekend day since I found those emails that I did NOT have a migraine. Score.
