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#2274816 08/25/12 02:17 PM
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me 46 H 38
M10yrs T 11
S10
BD ow 8/11
h filed 9/25/12


"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"

zig #2274856 08/25/12 05:39 PM
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So i'm thinking about climbing the emotional ladder, and wondered if the Turtles can climb with me too...

or should I say - they are climbing and I need to follow...

okay so I had a rather interesting horoscope this morning that really got me thinking...

Instead of begrudging a rival's success, research how s/he made it happen. What worked for this person can work for you.


so my first reaction is - well that's poop - I can't even begin to think of anyone who may be a rival in my life, I don't have any rivals.

took me a couple of mins as I sat there thinking about who could possibly be a rival - yeah, i know - slow on the uptake grin

and so then the brain started working and to make a long story short - I think i may see for the first time, what h gets from his r with ow that he doesn't get from me

leading - he gets to lead that relationship - emotionally, physically and mentally.

I know I'm on the right track here - it felt like such an aha moment, that i feel i hit the nail on the head. i can suddenly see how much leading i have done during our m as well as during this last year.

and so i finally figured out what doesn't work. now i just have to figure out how to turn that around for myself

the ironic thing is i never wanted to be the leader in the first place - i feel that i got it placed on me, because h didn't know how to or because of his own issues won't step up

don't get me wrong - i think it's more the LACK of feeling any concrete presence in the r - because of his own reluctance to do so, that created the sense of powerlessness within h in our situation.

and i took over the fixer role so there was some semblance of order...

so a vicious circle - that compounded itself - and still is.

now it's time for me to figure out how to break the pattern and do something different. i suddenly also see how i possibly may have laid the groundwork for that over the last few months - sort of bringing the horse to the water - but now it's time for him to take the step to drink as it were - and for me to really step back and figure out how to bring this into balance.

there i go again - trying to fix the situation.

but very interesting info -as KD always points out.

it still doesn't change where i'm at , as he says - still have to make a full life for myself regardless. but it's food for thought....


me 46 H 38
M10yrs T 11
S10
BD ow 8/11
h filed 9/25/12


"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"

zig #2274864 08/25/12 06:06 PM
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good food for thought zig. i relate to that immensely.

ahhh...so many thoughts to think about. so much learning. so much to get through to get to a better place. i feel tired tonight and a little scared about the future once again. i am not in the moment. my head is in a scary dark place.

i need the blanket zig. need some hope.


TPS
Me: 44 H: 42
M14 T17
S10 D7
10/10 H moves out after death of his father-same month
21/04/12 H is 'DONE'
04/05/12 OW/PA confirmed (rumors from 2010)
July '14 H ends affair
May '15 H moves back home
zig #2274865 08/25/12 06:08 PM
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wow - i really wonder what h is up to right now

considering i just sort of told him yesterday that he had lost the privilege to boss me around - it's quite amazing what he pulled this morning.

i was trying to book s and my tckt for our trip and having trouble with the website so called to ask fil how to navigate - fil is in the middle of helping me (i had no idea that h was there) and i hear h's voice saying rather aggressively - is that zig - gimme that phone - and f'ing takes over

takes over not to find out what i was calling about - but to order me about which airline we should fly on and why wasn't i on that website etc etc. i stayed really cool thinking to myself - good grief - he wants to help me plan this trip? wtf?
actually when he kept telling me what to do - i just stayed really quiet - especially when he went into "you should tell your mom to do this, do that..." finally i just decided to relax into what was going on - short of being really rude - i didn't know quite what to do (maybe that's my problem) - until he ran out of steam and then suddenly said - i guess you're wondering why i'm telling you what to do?
i just casually replied, that no i was happy to look at that website he suggested and the prices were actually $300 more than what i had chosen. so he got all shocked and then offered to help me with what i had originally called about and so i said - oh thanks for the help.

and then i took the plunge grin

i said - h before i book what day is ow staying until?

shocked silence, then very uncomfortable - why do you ask? she's staying until monday.

my reply - well, i thought that i could book our tickets so that we return while she's still here, so you still have that option if you want.

h: no, i do not want that option.(emphatic) this is not the right time.

me: I really appreciate that we are on the same page about this. thank you

h: but it's going to happen one of these days, you do realize that?

me: h, you make it sound like a threat - it's not a threat to me that this will happen. so don't hold it over my head as if it is one. you are a great father and i really want you to know clearly that i completely trust absolutely that when you decide, it will be the correct time for all of you and i'm really not worried about it. you know how i feel about how it should happen but i know you'll do what's best for s

h: well, it probably won't happen

wtf?

in the end - s and i are leaving on wednesday morning and coming back tuesday evening. he will be out of school for 4 days (oops) but i do need a break from being here and h's words today - s will get a hundred times more out of the 4 days with his grandparents than he will from being at school

i think that part of him is encouraging this now in a way - sort of to make amends to my family???...

the dynamics - since the mediators meeting have completely changed. we have spent a year being secretive, edgy and defensive with each other - and suddenly we are not - we are suddenly talking really openly and straight forward and directly with each other. or at least i am - and h is beginning to loosen up considerably

actually as i write this it is just starting to dawn on me that i may have achieved or begun to achieve one of my goals - that h stops fearing my reaction when he tells me the truth

i'm not afraid to bring up ow's name - though he still seems a bit unnerved by me doing so. and when i talk about her - which i haven't much anyway - i know my voice and energy is completely neutral and even - and i think that freaks him a bit too.

dropping the rope for me really means giving up complete resistance to anything that is going on - anything. I think the process involves discovering step by step what each resistant area is and methodically facing it and letting it go. and that's why it just can't happen in a short time. under each issue there is another and another, and only when i am emotionally ready to deal with each one, does it come up for me to face and get over.

another cool opportunity to learn more about myself and how this all works

zig


me 46 H 38
M10yrs T 11
S10
BD ow 8/11
h filed 9/25/12


"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"

zig #2274882 08/25/12 07:15 PM
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One of my favorite birds is a Ruddy Turnstone. Until I saw one in action on a pebbly beach I hadn't realized the reason for the name. It really does leave no stone unturned. Flip, flip, flip...

You go, girl!


Me - 54
P - 59
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She left 4/2012
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relentless.... grin


i do believe Ruddy Turnstone is the new turtle that showed up today while busting and i went swimming.....

how ya doin' stubborn?


me 46 H 38
M10yrs T 11
S10
BD ow 8/11
h filed 9/25/12


"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"

zig #2274898 08/25/12 10:36 PM
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you are amazing, sweet zig..

to be able to say the dreaded name.. and to talk about it with indifference..
WOW! Ruddy Turnstone is with you for sure...

i already know that will be my next step in dropping the rope... i did well w/ everything else recently... phone conversations, her bringing up the D, seeing her... but when she said yesterday that she was walking.... and i knew it was to OW's house... the rope burned my fingers REALLY BADLY, which meant i was holding on tight.. i need to drop it so it stops burning....

now i will have to figure out how... and my first step will be to read your last few posts over again to see how you got there.

love you, my friend.


Me(f): 51 W: 41
DP:8 M:3 T:10
"W not happy" 7/11
D final: 8/13
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I love your new thread title and I think you're doing so so well. What a difference a few weeks make eh? Keep going! So happy for you

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well - i don't know how "well" i'm doing - this morning was edgy as heck.

then i called h so i could talk w/ s, whom i had missed last night.

we talked for a few mins casually - he told me i sounded like hell and i said yeah hungover me and friend had a girl's night- too much vodka-

then i said - couple of things h - can we sit on the phone together later today, I would like to get that application out of the way. he agreed and i said after that we need to talk about how to deal with s's behavior at school last week and decide what to do.

so he called and halfway through filling out the form, he went into a panic about how there was no money and really tried to side-track us. i stayed calm through his spinning and insisted we do one thing at a time - fill the form out and then deal with the money issues. he finally agreed - and after all these months - that f'ing form to get reduced tuition was filled and submitted. now all i have to do is send in copies of the w-2 and taxes.

i pointed out our pattern - that we start one thing and then try to take on everything and both of us get so overwhelmed - i could feel myself reacting to his panic and decided then and there - no, i'm not going there!

then we start talking about s and the issues - and h just goes into f mode - and made it all about how he and i just don't agree blah blah blah - and it was really hard - i managed in a very convoluted way to get him to see that i was agreeing with him - that i was just trying to add one more dimension to the whole thing - and basically by the time i got off the phone i was like f this and started crying out of frustration. to me the conversation had just been so damn misdirected and totally off track to what we should have really been focusing on - and i had felt soooo much resistance form him.

granted at the end he did see that i was on the same page as him - and i think he finally got the message that i wasn't disagreeing with him at all - i was just trying to add a further dimension - which was the real solution.

after crying for about 3 mins. i suddenly got this idea in my head - that [censored] - i am still trying to get what i've wanted for 11 yrs - us to talk calmly together about s (this is a huge huge area of contention for us - our biggest problem ever, and really big in h's head), I F^CKING GIVE UP!!

let it be another way - it's never worked - let's try the opposite - let him parent the way he wants and I will parent the way I want. I'm not trying anymore - this is just hitting my head against a brick wall!!

I wasn't angry just completely done on wanting to do it together.

so i calmly picked up the phone, called h back and said - i think i found a great solution for our parenting problems. he's like what now? and i say - let's do it completely separately - for 11 years i've wanted to do this really together and it's never worked , i really think this is our only option! let's agree that when s is with you whatever comes up is yours to deal with and the same way when he is with me. I'm tired of this and just can't bear the thought of even one more conversation like this ever again.

H: you're pretty upset about this, aren't you?
me: crying a bit: yes, i can't bear this any more I just won't do this anymore

finally - after over an hour of talking where I calmly expressed all my frustrations - outright described to him his bossy controlling behavior, requested that he apologize to s for rolling his eyes at me in front of s, owned how my "freaking out when frustrated" behavior triggers that in him, told him how upsetting it was to me that he constantly said i would never earn any money and how even if he felt that, i wished him to keep it to himself and on and on and on.

but all very calmly.

and the result was that we talked in depth about how what is heard by one person isn't necessarily what the other person intended to say. he was shocked that i felt disrespected by him, he was shocked that i was frustrated - he had no idea! he spent a lot of time reassuring me that it was not his intention, but also tried to say that i had misunderstood. but i calmly said that the point was that that was what I felt i heard clearly from him, alongwith his specific actions and so that was what i knew.

i said - the issues that come up between us all point to a lack of respect that we each feel from the other. I said h, in an attempt to improve the communication between us i try to put myself in your place and try to see how you might take what i do and say and then try to rectify what i'm doing. for eg. is there anything i have done to make you feel that i don't respect you? he thought for a bit and replied - no, i feel respected by you.

i said i don't feel respected by you and so i'm trying to figure out why. he asked in what way and i described about the eye-rolling , the ordering tone of voice. i said these thing have suddenly come up just in this last week - and i am very confused as to what the message to me is about this from you. - i think i shocked him a little - he wasn't really able to answer that , but more said i'm sorry i didn't realize i was acting that way and that's how you were taking it. i think i even said something about how i didn't expect to be helping him book his tickets when he went on a trip.

on and on - there was so much we went through - and oddly enough - instead of getting defensive and talking me down, he seemed to be really listening. i tried only to use "I" sentences and make it really clear that i was prioritizing myself now, and it was really important to me that certain things changed between us.. at the same time i kept validating what he said as much as i could and whatever i brought up as an issue - i described trying to see it from his point of view and then asking him what he thought about it.

in the end - it was clear that h fully realized that what he said and his actions did not match, and consequently left me in a high state of confusion about where he or i stood on any issue - and the direct result was that we could never resolve anything. the conversation actually got lighter and lighter towards the end.

i must have done something right, because when i look back a couple of things happened - h got less and less defensive as the conversation went deeper and deeper. and every time there was a pause, and i would expect him to abruptly end the conversation (because he had to work), he continued it and eventually we talked for well over an hour.

at the end - i made sure we left it positive by describing all the things we had worked through, including me feeling reassured by him and really appreciating him for that, and him being able to be more clear about his thoughts - and best of all - him clarifying and insisting that we must parent together, rather than completely separately - and that we should have a catch up talk every week about where we were both at and where s was at

we even talked openly about how defensive he is if there is any indication that s might be affected about this.

so - in a very odd convoluted roundabout way - i have got h to state he wants to parent together. what remains to be seen is whether he will actually make a sincere attempt to do so. i did during the conversation point out to him that when his actions don't match his words, then they mean nothing to me - in the context of him saying casually all the time yes we should parent together, and then when we try to, make absolutely no effort to change anything on his part to make it more successful

i actually asked him outright at one point - h, what are you doing during this conversation differently so the outcome will be different than before?
(this is when he was just stonewalling and kept repeating we never agree we always do this)

i do believe that was brilliant - because it just bloody made him stop and think about it. the general atmosphere is this unspoken "truth" he has that because I (me) don't agree with him, I am spoiling any chances of us reaching any solution. after that, he was much more co-opertaive in the conversation - meaning less defensive.

i think what i did today was to make him more accountable for his role in our communication. instead of me being the only one accountable. that he doesn't get to throw this, that and the other out all over the place and expect me to be able to glean the relevant pertinent info out of that chaos.


i think one of the most significant points i got across for us was about the disagreeing. i tried to put myself into his position on why he automatically felt that and it hit me right there in the middle of the conversation and so i told him - "

you know h, i wonder if this maybe what is going on. first you gave your opinion on what you thought we should do and when we were done, i gave mine, and then the next thing you were upset that we never agree and we were on the road to a mess. Could it be that when you hear my opinion, which sounds different from yours, you hear it as me disagreeing with you, rather than that i am just saying what i think? for me, when i hear yours i don't think you are disagreeing, i think you are just saying what you feel or what you want to do. the way i see it is that we are offering 2 different viewpoints and that when we look for a solution , our solution will be much more richer because there is more depth to it"

sorry this is so long - i just wanted to document this so that later i can read about it

zig


me 46 H 38
M10yrs T 11
S10
BD ow 8/11
h filed 9/25/12


"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"

zig #2275060 08/26/12 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted By: zig
i can suddenly see how much leading i have done during our m as well as during this last year.

and so i finally figured out what doesn't work. now i just have to figure out how to turn that around for myself

the ironic thing is i never wanted to be the leader in the first place - i feel that i got it placed on me, because h didn't know how to or because of his own issues won't step up

and i took over the fixer role so there was some semblance of order...

so a vicious circle - that compounded itself - and still is.

now it's time for me to figure out how to break the pattern and do something different.


I'm with you on this one and am struggling with it. I would love to take a backseat and not have some much responsibility. It's tiring. And I would love to be the vulnerable one that needs help. So breaking the pattern of H not stepping up to the plate, forcing us to be the fixers. Wow, that's huge.

And I am impressed about your conversation with H today and that you were able to share your feelings and get a response from him where he recognized that he didn't realize how he was affecting you.


M44 H57
D17 (special needs)
M 18 yrs
Bomb 7/2/12
Still living together
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