DB Bootcamp - dawnmarie and zig et al

[zig]

Hi sweet dawn -

i'm sorry i've been away on a trip and also needed a break from the boards.

I did go over and read a bit on your thread, and also your posts here tonight.

Dawn - i am going to be straight with you here. There's a strong pattern in your posts and the main impression is that you are really stuck where you are - in terms of yourself an din terms of your relationship to your h.

It's time to get unstuck - and it's a decision you have to make and commit to - by yourself - without paying ANY mind whatsoever to how your h or your relationship with him may be affected.

What we need to do it get you to emotionally move in a positive direction - and that is going to take some determination on your part to get there.

The smallest tiniest shift, will make a huge difference.

From what I understand your h is repeatedly telling you that he is quite quite comfortable where he is.

And he is comfortable there, because YOU are there with him. Can you see that?

I think what I am trying to say is that you need to not be there - and you need to figure out what you have to do so you are not there in the way you have been all this time.

In order for you to figure that out - you first have to figure out and see clearly how you are there for him - how you feed his comfortable-ness - and once you've figured that out - stop doing it.

My first suggestion would be to absolutely stop having those conversations with him that you describe - where he tells you how he's going to stay that way. Allow him to face it on his own. I have a feeling that you are somehow validating it for him .

this is the equivalent of a severe alcoholic who absolutely refuses to change or make their life better. what does the other person do? enable it or let it go.

you need to start letting go of where he is. and that means looking at and inspecting yourself and where you fit in to the equation - and changing that equation.

have you finished Co-Dep no more?

did you get the Dance of Anger yet? this one will really help you to learn to recognize the patterns - they are so hard to see at first , but then when you start to see them, it's like a waterfall - non-stop the patterns emerge and then you can change them

so Dawn - let's get you to focus really hard on other things than your sitch right now with your h - let's get you a small set of goals that are very specific, to do with patterns - within yourself first.

i'd love it if you wrote down some of the patterns that you see yourself doing - for example - how do you react when you are disappointed about something? how do you react when your h sleeps for 2 days and you have to eat dinner on your own?

really specific answers - and from what you write, we'll figure out what we can do to change those within you to more positive reactions that help you keep moving forward

will that work for you?

i'm looking forward to doing this with you - i think if we can get really specific - you can make some positive movement within yourself

when is your apptmt with the therapist?

also - i'm sorry you didn't get the job - but Dawn, the more you focus on that as a means to an end (you wrote that getting the job will give youa stability that makes you feel independent) - the more elusive it will become.

you can feel emotionally independent also - and that will benefit you greatly right now - and i think it's a necessary step before you can truly step out into the world. so let's find that emotional independence for you, eh

have you read the analogy of the castle and the picnic?

you are smack in the middle of the castle right now - and i want you to start walking to that big huge heavy door, use all your strength to open it, walk through, pull it closed behind you and walk across the moat.

walk as far as you can, spread out the blanket, and sit down, with your back to the castle and everything in it. and there you can take a deep breathe and rest a bit. we'll all come join you - but you have to come out there okay?

big hug and lots of positive energy your way

also - every time you catch yourself thinking "i can't do this" stop and ask yourself why - there's usually not a good enough reason not to try something different or new

(((((( ))))))
zig

[albamarie]

"i am going to be straight with you here. There's a strong pattern in your posts and the main impression is that you are really stuck where you are - in terms of yourself and in terms of your relationship to your h."

thanks zig, for being straight with me....i wrote to GWN saying just that...i need it straight. I'm not his child or sister or his mother...though over the years it seems those are the roles H has put me in at times. With my blessing!

I took a few days off from here just to be me, without H since he was gone two nights.

Went to the movies with D and fell in love with being in love again, just watching the big screen actors play it out made my heart ache.

I don't want to be stuck anymore...it's going to be my third fall going into this lonely path of winter, holidays, b-days...and I have S.A.D. so that really doesn't help. (Seasonal affective disorder)

by yourself - without paying ANY mind whatsoever to how your h or your relationship with him may be affected.

that's my problem...i base everything on how it will affect him...I don't like to make him think that I'm just fine without him. I thought it would make him detach from me even more...he always tells me I'm good. i want to rip his face off when he say's that.

he is comfortable here...I am a creature of comfort...and he sux it all up like my own personal vampire...sucking the life out of me as well. After 23yrs of providing that "homey" feeling he missed as a child, and I obviously needed to give, i have to learn how to wrap myself up in my own blanket and be content.

Don't be here? At least for "him" I can work on that everyday...as i learn to detach. Today I almost ran out of bed to make him breakfast when he commented that he thought there would be dinner leftovers. I bee lined it for the bathroom.

I have a feeling that you are somehow validating it for him .

that was really hard to read...i don't know how or what to say or do in order to stop. I don't condone his ignorance...ow/ea, anger, and blatant disregard for my needs as a wife. I didn't know I am validating him...can you elaborate on that some more please?

I am reading Co-d still....I really like think it helping me put some things together. I loved the castle-picnic...I passed it on so when I put out my blanket finally some friends can join me

Bitting m tongue here...no more conversations letting him spew his verbal abuse my way. I'm letting him make his declarations that make no sense anyway, are have half truths, and are hurtful.

zig, I want nothing more that to feel emotionally independent...it sounds so freeing, lite and airy. No more heavy emotional handcuffs.

I'm so scared to get out of his equation...though I know better. I know that it is best for me...I don't want to be there, really...he's not fun! It losing the feeling of what's familiar, what's easy, like a broken in pair of jeans, we love them the most.

Well not that I have expressed my feelings...I am ready to work on changing my thoughts...moving forward...cause I'm not alone. I have 4 grown kids here in this house with me who are fun, loving, weird, and everything else that comes with a great personality.

I have both my parents who say all the right things about my m and what they think, and keep just the right distance.

Someone asked me how am i (close friend) and I said "I'm a wife without a husband" shocking myself I realized I am (right now) singular. Just me... without him.

Yea, it's little steps like that everyday, throughout the day that I need to remember so I don't slid back, cry, try to cuddle, say ILY, you know all those "normal things" that a LBS still misses.

thanks zig your post was a great read!!!

[zig]

Hi sweet dawn - i see progress in what you worte - and that's wonderful.

you bee-lined it straight for the bathroom - you took care of yourself - that's exactly what you should be doing - it's really that simple

do the unexpected - get out of your comfort zone, even a little - and that's where movement happens.

if it feels a bit uncomfortable - you can grin to yourself and say - YES!!! I should do this right now.

I'm not saying be outrageous or rude or obnoxious - just little things like don't jump up to meet his needs - let him meet them himself.

So even if you don't realize it, I am noticing that you are already on the right track.

Becoming emotionally dependent is a process. and i can only tell you what i went through and am still going through and what helped me the most.

Acceptance of where I was at each stage. real deep acknowledgment to myself, that yes this is how i am still clinging when i could see it clearly - and not getting down on myself for being that way.

that's the first step - and just accepting it fully and acknowledging it somehow frees you up to let it go just a teeny bit and then you go through the whole process again.

i saw that after my last post to you, your posts seemed to convey that you were putting a lot of pressure on yourself to get emotionally independent as soon as possible. I just want to add that feeling like that will only work against you and add pressure.

instead - be gentle in acknowledging that this is where you are, but adding that "I can get to a better place"

so let's start there, okay? and keep watching what you do and how you react both with your h and on your own - just noticing it - almost like an observer looking in and try to pick up the nuances of what is going on. you'll be surprised at how quickly you will start to see the patterns

you recognized a couple already - how you almost leaped up to get him breakfast and also what you said about cuddling and ILY's etc. try to see what you could do different there - not from h's POV but from yours so it's good for you.

I was talking to my mom tonight and i said - it's taken me a year to disentangle my roots from h's roots, and for the first time i feel my tree can stand on it's own.

it takes time to separate out 2 people who have been together for a long time. if you try to hack at the roots, you will only hurt yourself. but this is more about gently prying them apart, over time in a safe way.

also wanted to say that much of what you're feeling now- i recognize very clearly - the fear of the unknown is so overpowering and is our biggest challenge. it takes a lot of time and work to rid ourselves of that fear.

actually pretty much all the difficulty we face in our sitches stems from fear - and we have to untangle those fears and face them and recognize that they are based on old beliefs that we cling to.

so learn to recognize the fear behind your own reactions and then you can say to yourself - this is the fear that is making me feel like this - what am i really afraid of? and work down and backwards through that till you find the original fear - once you find it, suddenly your present emotions seem not so overpowering.

i'd really like it if you read through that last post of mine again - there were some questions i asked and i think it would be good for you to sit down and write out some things about what i asked. i think as you write - you will see patterns yourself - they will just jump out. that's the good thing about being specific, it makes you see things you don't always see when you are general

so let's start there - and hey tomorrow morning when you guys wake up - ask h very nicely - would you please put the coffee on, or make breakfast for us? (or something that's totally opposite of what normally happens or that you always do) - sort of just expect him to do it instead. if he objects act surprised and say - oh but i love your breakfast and i've missed you making it for me - the point being - add a compliment about how he does things well.

what comes to mind for me - and i don't know if i'm totally right about this - is to sort of turn the tables on him for a bit. why not spend the day in bed and not come to the table for dinner with the family?

a word of warning - he could possibly react strongly - and that is just him protesting the change, because it causes him discomfort.

but be warned - unless you are truly ready to sustain the change, don't do it. because if you do it, he reacts and then you stop, you give him a lot of power. this last suggestion is something that you can work towards - just in your thoughts for now - as you study the interactions between the two of you, you could start to see where you could make the changes.


so you've got a lot of homework dawn, and i think you are ready for it

you are doing great - and i love that you spread your blanket. i'm joining you tonight and bringing my favorite Turtle - he's called Courage and you can keep him by you for as long as you need

You've had one kind of courage until now - but you are stepping in to another kind altogether!!

take care of yourself every moment sweet Dawn, and come tell me how you are doing when you get a chance

zig

[zig]

Hi sweet Dawn - just checking in to see where youa re at and ifyou are feeling any better?

Hope you are doing well and have a great weekend planned

(((((((( ))))))))
zig

[albamarie]

Hi ZIg- Ok, I have stopped having those conversations about him, his feelings, what's wrong. He said to me last night that he’s going to work until he collapses, (depression) I said “well at least you have a goal” he laughed (hopefully one day seeing his own silliness) and we left it at that.

This weekend H was going through some hard times at work and I stood to the side. He did wake me to get comfort and warmth (fall nights) I acknowledged him, not real attentive, but validating.

My mom and dad came over Fri. they told me to make sure to be kind, make sure the kids are kind to H, because he at least needs that even if he’s a big dope. We had a great family time eating and hanging out, they both don’t want me to walk away from him, but think my life would be so improved if I did.

I liked having him gone… I didn’t miss him. I am learning to be without him and finding the benefits of that. The weekend without H made me see how happily I was floating around the house, how I’m missing nothing from his absence, but anxiety and hurt. (that's thinking of this H, not the past H that's gone)

I went to another job interview this morning…for me to be a better me…not as an escape. It looks good…I will let you know.

One of my biggest patterns is jumping to his every whim even as he himself is saying there’s no need. I caught myself the last few times…I’m not as accommodating unless he specifically asks, like for a coffee to go, as he’s off to work. He’s never been very intrusive anyway…I was more insistent. He is comfortable with the thought, that I am here…he said before, he knows what he has…and will always have. Hence, the feeling that he can be anyway, and I’ll love him through it.

NO MORE…I don’t love him through it, I feel like I’m coming out the other end of a tunnel that has multiple exists. This exit is the “I don’t think I’m in love with you any more” exit, with several other directional tunnels to continue through from there. Wow, would he would have to do to pull me back is beyond my faith ...of his capabilities.

Ok, this is a crazy sidebar, but I want to share this. D and I went to a neighborhood festival where there was a psychic/card reader. I paid her no mind as she sought me out of a crowd. She said I was emitting so much anger and disappointment that she needs to talk to me. Ok, it’s a festive after all…. her words almost knocked my D off her chair. She held my hands and told me everything that is going on (as you and I know it) with my M, H, R, and kept going. She named my D name, said me son’s name, my grandmother’s name, and proceeded to tell me to GAL. “You didn’t nothing wrong…you didn’t break this R, you can’t fix it”. (sounds familiar-Cadet’s words).

Now that’s all in fun of course, but she pulled me in and said there is no explanation for how my h is acting…do nothing, let it take it’s course…take care of myself, and don’t worry about taking care of him so much.

Ok, when a stranger off the street can read that off of me, I figure I either look like hell these days, or she’s just that intuitive.

I’m going to leave you with this at this point and come back with some,” really specific answers - and from what you write, we'll figure out what we can do to change those within you to more positive reactions that help you keep moving forward”.

Have a great day...

[zig]

good for you Dawn - and it it took a psychic - i'm all for it.

I'm really open to that sort of thing - just to let you know.

things like that happen for a reason, i really believe - and if you don't GO with what the universe is handing you on a plate right now - well then it will give you another bashing down the line to do so.

right now it's handing you the chance to find the true you, that's not all entangled with your h.

and guess what the real gift is if you go with it? you will become so powerful in your own energy and independent growth that it could possibly influence your h to come out of his depression.

as for noticing your patterns - YAY YAY YAY!!!

that's the first step - and you and i are just going to take off from there.

word of warning - i started seeing the patterns - the more obvious ones - almost a year ago - and guess what - i'm STILL finding patterns that need to change.

first the most obvious ones glare out at you and then over time the more subtle ones.

what i am beginning to see really clearly now, dawn, is that every step i take toward being a stronger me, coincides with a pattern breaking. it all comes in degrees - slowly slowly

so take a deep breathe and get ready for a wonderful journey - you are going to be so delighted with what you discover about your self

hugs to you Sweet Dawn - and kudos for being so courageous

Zig

[albamarie]

Hi Zig, Great day today here in the midwest. Hope yours was sunny too!

I told my H today, as he was trying to pick on me, that I will not take him talking mean to me…he asked if he could be mean to himself, I walked away silently.

H said I should date his rich client for the money, he said F*** love, I’m not going to get that from “him” anymore, go for the money…. well that’s his cross he carries, so I told him he will not talk to me like that again.

Cadet said it’s his own guilt and shame he’s trying to release. H does feel like such a looser in life, and so dead inside that he tries to agitate me to quicken him when he can’t get motivated to do anything.

Well I shot him down without conflict, and he stopped, shared a 9/11 documentary with me, and enjoyed his dinner with compliments. I don’t really get anything out of all the hard work he requires, even his compliments (which I loved) now feel meaningless, empty, not satisfying, though I know at the time he says it, he means it.

So it is getting easier everyday to detach and be different from the way I acted before. H said he didn’t deserve my dinner (as he was shoveling it in) my thought was “shut up”, SOS talk, this is too boring to respond to.

It feels so much better at the end of an attempted rant... to have control and not have gone down the rabbit hole with him. I feel better about myself…my kids don’t have to see me distraught anymore…and in the end H does respond a little more positive.

When you are detached you are naturally distancing.

I’m sure this is where I’m at now. It does feel more “natural” everyday to do things on my own, call my friends a little more, make a fire in the yard, sit with the boys as they teach me how to enjoy their drink creations (ah, young men an their blenders).

I have stopped snooping…. and learned that it is better not knowing. I see he still takes $20 from the account a few times a week to give ow/ea food money (dirt poor alcoholic) but I never comment on it anymore. Hell, I feed my squirrels better than that…an my dog eats organic, the topic of her is not worth my breath.

This first lesson I learned (before dbing) was act “as if” and the results were so surprising. I took the good, but couldn’t handle the bad. Detaching helps strengthen and backs up the “as if” keeping me from letting a sitch get bad in the first place. Make sense?

I like the new-minded approach, my baby steps, that make every morning a little easier to face. The road ahead is long, winding, and bumpy, but I’m not alone, I’ve always known that, but never saw it until now as I peek out of my own tunnel.

I'm still working on those pattern as everyday brings another one to surface...I see how this could be a life long journey. You are such a great help, listener, teacher of your own experiences, that I would not be were I'm at right now. Thanks for share your insight as we both continue to DB our way through the muck.

Off to read co-dep no more...some more!

[albamarie]

Zig- My new "spiritually healer" was really great to talk to today. She leaves me feeling happy, lighter, freer, and a little more in tune with myself. There is so much validation that comes from her and physical touching (hugging, hand holding) that I almost started to cry.

I am working on learning to say no ( to my self) when I feel the urge to do something for H that is typical, expected, anti-detaching. If asked yes, be kind, but, not intrusively mothering, over barring. (is that what I was, yea!)

I think I like this "me" topic...I never thought I would like being the main subject, but I need it soo much that I am having a good time with it.

I spent the whole day out...my car is making a difference...it is mine...a vessel that guides me through rough waters away from home...taking me to new lands.

I shopped for my God daughter's b-day today, telling her if your were at the mall with friends and wanted something really cool, but you didn't have the money, what would it be? She told me (humbly saying it's too much) her simple wants that would make her happy, a box set movie collection, so I bought it.

D and I are making brownies and watching zombies tomorrow. YA! I really do love the series...and anything vampires.

Monday it's off to my parents for dad's b-day (more goodies) Boy, these are days I have spent years not paying attention to...neglecting all others in my life staying home trying to keep my house of cards from falling.

That's what you mean by GAL, not worry about how it is going to affect my R or H!!! Geeze!

Zig- you named it exactly as it has always been. I need to release myself of my self-appointed duties.

[zig]

hi sweet dawn - what a lovely post - i hope you go back to read these last few pages and see what a turn you have taken. your voice sounds lighter and you ARE lighter in your heart, i think.

so happy for you

brownies and vampires - wow!! i don't think i could manage that combo

so, dear girl - after you come back from your dad's, can i give you a little nudge to get started on some teeny tiny little goals so we can keep you one step ahead and continually focused?

i hope you have a wonderful weekend, and a beautiful time with your family - so glad to hear you are stepping out of your old world into your new one, dear friend

(((((((((( ))))))))))
zig

[albamarie]

Good morning zig- I'm a little sad today, but it's different from before...I see my m as over (right now) but I am getting hopeful and excited about new experiences.

We spent the morning in bed talking about our childhood (movie inspired) it helped me see just how far back H's life goes into that dark tunnel of misery.

To hear how at 8 yrs old was thrown in a closet, slapped, whipped and his reasoning to this day is "he deserved it" shows me this is the way he copes.

I have the maturity, strength, and cope ability to move forward that H does not have and I need to continue to take charge.

I am actively still looking everyday for thing to keep me busy. Strange how that becomes something you have to make an effort at.

I am doing better keeping in touch with friends, and family, but I still have yet to do anything to put myself out there to meet more people. What makes this a hard goal is not my unwillingness as before, but my lack of imagination ( i guess).

Maybe I still hold myself back...self analyzing here, like I'm on the threshold safely able to see the confort zone, while peeking at the world ahead. I am teetering though...sometimes I'm in the world ahead, peeking at my comfort zone. Improvement???!!!

I hope this is at least, a very baby step, in the right direction of my goals (at least recognizing) that I need to keep moving forward.

I'm outa here, by myself to pick up some things and give my parents a call about tom.

Can you imaging if all of us LBS were to get together on our blankets we would never have a shortage of friends, that would be a hellofa picnic!