I get that, and I do agree....but I asked if there wasn't some other option that would allow her to get her space
YOUR way ????
Time and space means that SHE wants to find her way, not that she wants you to find it for her.
Your fix for her issues will not work.
Originally Posted By: BD
I was panic'd, and tried to explain my feelings (without getting mad), but she decided to get mad instead and say she's done (again). She felt like I was stalking her and trying to control her....I can see her point, but she refuses to see mine.
This is more of the same thing from you to her.
I would feel the same way as she does. And truth be told, you would feel the same way if the roles were reversed.
IF you really see her point, as you say....
Then you should be validating her points, instead of trying to insert your own agenda onto her.
She doesn't see your point right now, because she doesn't want to see your point right now.
And let me ask you this....
What have you shown her differently about yourself since the bomb ?
That is eye opening. Seriously, thank you. I needed that. You just said what she's been saying to me, but in a way that I get it. I have just seen that I failed her....I failed to trust her, and in return, she failed to trust me. I have to break this circle. I have to choose to trust. Some of that may come from detaching, but some is simply a choice.
Again, after serious discussions, and all, I see baby steps tonight. She calls about S12's swim meet, saying she's otw....he decides he wants to skip due to heat, so I text her that. She calls and says, "do you mind if I go do this work related stuff." I say, no, do what you need to...I've got it under control here. She says great, be home at 7. 645 rolls around and she text me "going to have a beer with joe and his wife, be home 745"...I say "k, thx." Wow, that may be the first time she's actually told me that she wasn't going to be home when she originally said, and actually told me she was going to be drinking. I feel safe...I know what's going on, I feel that she actually trusted me. That may not seem like a big deal, but in our relationship, it is. Maybe it's because she's saying she's done, but she's been saying that every month for a year now so I think that's real progress. She took a step and trusted me....I'm taking a step and trusting her. I will be upbeat and happy when she gets home, with no expectations. Let's see what happens.
Okay, so you have noticed a pattern within yourself.
How can you transform what you have in your noggin right now, into real life actions ?
You can "think" whatever you wanna think, but until you can transform that into your actions speaking, then you have made very little progress with it.
Let's say that you get it now, and you think it now. Yet tonite , when she comes in the door, you have a reaction to how late she is out, or how she smells, or that she dyed her hair orange.
While your words to her, were that you had it under control ( bad choice BTW) , your actions COULD lead you back down that road to same old , same old BD.
To really be okay with things, you need to really be okay with things. And if you say that you are, you better SHOW her that you are.
Make sense ?
What can you do, to show her that ?
There is an adage here about faking it, till you make it. And while you may not be an expert at one thing or another yet. When you see these patterns within yourself, you really need to be calm, cool, and collected when you present yourself to her.
I'm not big on actions that are manipulative, although there are times when you can really NOT be okay with things, because you have been caught off guard. What I am a proponent of, is that you employ the 48 hour rule, so that you can come from a rational plan of action, rather than a place of reactive behaviors.
Assuming she gets home in the next hour, I plan to be upbeat...happy...light hearted....positive. This is what I've been asking for...some simply communication and basic respect. That is my plan. Yeah, she said she'd be home by now, but we're talking baby steps and she took one, so I have to react positive to it regardless, or she won't continue to do it.
If she comes home 2-3 hours late and is hammered, I think I'll just detach and ignore it. I can't really thank her for communicating at that point I don't think...or maybe I can just thank her for trying, I dunno. She says she's leaving, so what can I really say if she chooses to come home at 10pm, or not at all?
Originally Posted By: Mach1
While your words to her, were that you had it under control ( bad choice BTW) , your actions COULD lead you back down that road to same old , same old BD.
Those weren't my exact words....they were slightly better, but honestly, I was a bit caught off guard that she even asked me if I was ok. I tried to convey there was nothing pressing at home and I had dinner (previously agreed).
She needs to see consistent ACTIONS from you. The way you get there is to really believe in the changes you want to make.
If you keep telling her you've changed and then react in a way that you have in the past, she is thinking, nope, he really hasnt changed at all.
One of the most important things if for her to feel that you've heard her.
So, if she is telling you that she needs space and you are answering isnt there another way, well, you havent heard her and she gets mad.
Tonight you are getting an opportunity. Take it.
Thanks. There are some things I've been consistently good at over the last year, but clearly, there are a couple of really game changers I haven't showed enough movement in. It's difficult when it comes to trust, because honestly, she tears it down at every opportunity. Testing maybe?
With regards to the "needing space," I get it...I just don't want to agree to divorce for her to have it. I've tried not to dictate what she does, I've just asked her think about other options. I guess I could do a 180 here and say ok, let's do it and then drag my feet....but I'm not sure that helps.
Well, she got home at 915 or so...I was already in bed and falling asleep so I wasn't really upbeat. However, nothing negative came out of my mouth. I asked her how the meeting was and told her good job on getting the business. I asked her if she ate the dinner I had left out for her and she thanked me, but said she snacked and would eat it today. She changed, and asked me if I wanted her to sleep in the other room. I said, "if you want" and she said "I'm asking what you want." I was kind of in and out of it and didn't really pursue it, and she just hopped in bed.
I see now that she actually texted me about 855 saying "sorry, otw now." So again, I'd consider that a baby step in the right direction.
We had slated tonight as a catch up night for dialogue and the post session we missed, so I'll ask about that when she gets home from working out, but won't apply pressure. Simply, are those plans still on?
Originally Posted By: Mach1
It is part of the push-pull that occurs when you DB.
You push, she pulls away...
You pull away ?
She pushes....
Recognizing what MIGHT happen in these situations is the balance that you are looking for here. The problem, as it seems, is that you feel her pushing toward you, that you start having expectations about what "might" happen if you over compensate for this or that.
What is something that you might be able to do, to recognize that pattern of behavior ?
What is something that you can do when you do recognize that ?
Letting go of expectations...
You didn't expect to be married after one date with her...did you ?
Think back to a time in your relationship, when you had zero expectations...
How were you then ? What do you see differently now ?
I'm trying to wrap my head around this. I'm not sure I've completely got it. I see that my expectations are getting in the way, but I also think I may be giving too much to her without a commitment. My end goal is really for her to say "I want to work on this"...she hasn't said it once since the bomb 17 months ago. She will say that she's trying to be better about communicating or something, but never anything about repairing the R.
So let me run a scenario by you and see if you can steer me in the right direction. Let's say this week runs out, no bumps, she starts feeling comfortable, asks me to go for a beer on Fri. My mindset has got to be, live in the moment....enjoy life, be happy, laugh, but expect nothing. This doesn't mean she doesn't want a divorce, this doesn't mean she wants to work on it, it's just a beer and some chatter. If I'm ok with a beer and chatter, I go, and go for that. If I'm not, I should decline.
Now, this is where we fall into old habits. We'll come home, probably ML, hold hands, watch TV and fall back into our normal life. I think I could probably do that with no expectations...if I really think about it. But would this be cake eating on her part? If I give her everything she's wanting, how do I ask her to work on the relationship? If she thinks everything is fine with me (which in this scenario, she probably would), how would she even know to bring up the R and working on it?
Originally Posted By: Mach1
Originally Posted By: BD
She said she's moving out at the end of the month and wants kids every other week. She would rather swap weeks at the house so the kids aren't uprooted every week, and I agree, that is probably better short term, at least until we get out from under the house. I see an A today to go over what my options are.
Really ?
That means that every other week, that YOU get uprooted from your home.
And you are okay with that ?
I see way more internal conflict with that, down the road.
Yeah, I am with you on this one. She's painted scenarios of us divorced, and asked me if I'd be willing to help her if things got tough with her job. My response was something like, "I'd want to make sure the kids were ok, but it's not my responsibility to be your parachute if you choose to leave."
I was really just thinking about the kids, but I think you're right on this one.
Originally Posted By: Mach1
Quote:
3) Last night, we talked a long time about her issues. Ultimately, she feels trapped. She feels controlled. She doesn't have the desire to try right now. She isn't saying she doesn't want to be with me, or work things out, she just desperately needs some space to work thru her own issues and see if she feels differently about our past. I get that, and I do agree....but I asked if there wasn't some other option that would allow her to get her space (i.e. in house separation, every other week w/o divorce). I think this probably seems like pursuing, but I really worry about the damage we might be doing to the kids just so she can figure out what she wants. Thoughts?
I think that you should rest on this for a couple days. Then read your own words again, and see if you have a different view of them.
She is telling you that she feels controlled....
Is she ?
And let me ask you this....
What have you shown her differently about yourself since the bomb ?
I think I've been thinking about this all wrong for the last year. Initially, I kind of let her do her own thing with minimal complaints but after a while, I really started saying "this isn't working for me." At that point, I started pushing for some change. I justified it by saying I wasn't asking for much, and it was a level respect I would ask for even in divorce. From one point of view, I still think that is accurate. But, the problem has been that she sees this as controlling, and I can now see that control is her #1 issue. So for probably 6 months now, she sees me trying to control her. When we talk about R, I think when we talk about her issues, I try to help her fix them...again, she sees "my way" or control. I've done better about listening, and trying not to fix everything, but when you flip our R on it's head and say "what can be viewed as controlling in the last 15 years...or even 25 if we go back to HS"....holy crap.
There certainly was control...when we were young, and even the first 10 years of our marriage. Now, even when I think I'm not asking for much, she sees control....and then she runs.
So the real question here is how to ask for nothing, and yet eventually get something. I'm not sure what the answer is, but I think it's got to start with trust and no expectations.
I am going to break this down into a couple posts, so that the thoughts don't run together....
Originally Posted By: Breakdown
So let me run a scenario by you and see if you can steer me in the right direction. Let's say this week runs out, no bumps, she starts feeling comfortable, asks me to go for a beer on Fri. My mindset has got to be, live in the moment....enjoy life, be happy, laugh, but expect nothing. This doesn't mean she doesn't want a divorce, this doesn't mean she wants to work on it, it's just a beer and some chatter. If I'm ok with a beer and chatter, I go, and go for that. If I'm not, I should decline.
Now, this is where we fall into old habits. We'll come home, probably ML, hold hands, watch TV and fall back into our normal life. I think I could probably do that with no expectations...if I really think about it. But would this be cake eating on her part? If I give her everything she's wanting, how do I ask her to work on the relationship? If she thinks everything is fine with me (which in this scenario, she probably would), how would she even know to bring up the R and working on it?
BD...
This is where it gets twisted a little for me....
You posted a few days ago, that she told her EA that he was the reason that she got up in the morning...
Yet you are still available to her at her every whim.
Is that something that you are comfortable with ?
It could be considered cake eating, although I never had a real clear definition of it. : ) I guess it could mean it in any way that YOU think it means....
So if you think it is ? Then so be it.....
It is definitely having the best of both worlds.
I would make it a goal to not accept every invitation from her. Don't make yourself so available to her.
And don't do that just to be an asshat either...Be a little less available because you are getting out there and doing things for yourself.
Create some mystery around yourself.
You are allowed to live a life too...
And you can fill it with whatever you want to fill it with.
Let's say that you decline 2 out of 3 offers from her.
What do you think that she would think if you stopped showing up at her convenience ??
What would she think if she invited you to go out with her, and you said " I'm sorry, I have plans, and I need for you to be home to watch our children" ????
And then you stick to your guns, and go out and do something for yourself.
It is part of DBing....GAL
It would also be a 180 for you ? To not be on her leash ?
The availability thing is something I've struggled with, and I know I need to be better. Even when I'm out doing something by myself, or with my brothers, she'll ask if she can come along, or drop by for a beer. I generally (I might as well say always) try to make it work....even if I'm getting ready to get up and go, I'll stick around and wait for her. She definitely takes me for granted....watching the kids, house chores, etc, and this is just one more example of it. Agreed....I will focus on this.
The problem I have run into on GALing is that it becomes 20 questions with her, and complaining. For example, if I do something for me, she goes on and on about where were you, who were you with, are you looking for someone, etc. I struggle to create mystery when she's like this. And should I be busy 2 of 3 times, I can see her complaining "you never make time for me." I'm not sure where that goes from there.
The availability thing is something I've struggled with, and I know I need to be better. Even when I'm out doing something by myself, or with my brothers, she'll ask if she can come along, or drop by for a beer. I generally (I might as well say always) try to make it work....even if I'm getting ready to get up and go, I'll stick around and wait for her. She definitely takes me for granted....watching the kids, house chores, etc, and this is just one more example of it. Agreed....I will focus on this.
The problem I have run into on GALing is that it becomes 20 questions with her, and complaining. For example, if I do something for me, she goes on and on about where were you, who were you with, are you looking for someone, etc. I struggle to create mystery when she's like this. And should I be busy 2 of 3 times, I can see her complaining "you never make time for me." I'm not sure where that goes from there.
And she is in an admitted EA with another man....????
And she is in an admitted EA with another man....????
Like I asked earlier....
Are you comfortable with this ???
She had never admitted to having an emotional affair with the guy...I'm not even sure she'd agree with me on what an emotional affair was (unless I started having one, and then maybe we'd come to some agreement).
To be fair to her, I have had problems with insecurity and jealously for most of our marriage. It's only been the last 18 months that I've started to get my head on straight. She's been talking to this guy for probably 4 years now, and I've been complaining about it for most of that period. In my defense, she did have some sexting thing going on with another guy about 5-6 years ago, so when I saw the tons and tons of texts, and the hours and hours on the phone, I was hyper-sensative to it. His wife has been worse than me and has called my wife a whore for a couple of years now.
With that said, I think their relationship has escalated over the last couple of years. She's actually spent less time with him, but I think they know entirely too much about each other. She is always talking to him about his kids and family. One point of contention with us is when she gets on the phone with him at 8-9pm at night or when we're trying to eat dinner, or do something together. As long as it's work related, I really don't mind much, as I can understand some of this stuff bleeds into the evening, but as soon as she starts asking about did he get invited to this wedding, or how is his son doing, I think, hey, do you really need to invest our family time in that? She's gotten better about it....not that she's stopped, she just tries not to do it at home. I have caught them together drinking and hanging out multiple times. Still, to this day, she insists they are only friends. He appreciates her opinion, and makes her feel valued, but she said there's absolutely nothing more than that.
She did admit that she told him something like "you're the reason I can get up in the morning" or something similar, but that's been a fairly recent event. I view that as an escalation of their relationship, and no, I'm absolutely not ok with it.
With all that said, she and I did discuss this the other day (we have talked about it a lot honestly). I told her that I wasn't pushing for her to not work with the guy or anything as I really believe, if we fix our relationship, and I can meet her needs like I should have been all along, then her deal with him would take care of itself. Anyway, I couldn't really mandate that she not work with him, or socialize with him anyway, as she'd just see that as control. I have asked her to read about emotional affairs so she could better judge if her relationship was ok, but again, that's "MY WAY" and doesn't help.
When I have tried to put it in the context of "you wouldn't accept that behavior from me" she says things like "you're just not as social as I am" or "you're not a people person." It's easier to explain it away than actually look at it.
