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Keep on your course, jks.


Me 57/H 58
M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13

Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do.
I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering.
Caroline Myss
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JKS,

It is not WAS's job to protect you emotionally. NEITHER of you know how things will work out. Don't look for a guarantee from him now.


CHOOSE to accept the emotional risks for the possible gains. OWN THEM.

No matter what happens:

(1) H will be all over the place. H will backslide with OW multiple times.

(2) You will be all over the place.

(3) The ONLY way that things will work out well in the long run is if you BOTH know for DAMN sure that it was H's choice to dump OW and return to you. Everytime you pressure him and seek guarantees, you lessen the likelihood of that happening.

Give H space. Don't reinsert yourself into an R unless you are comfortable with the level of honesty and emotional risks involved.

Guarantees and reassurances now are meaningless. You wouldn't ask a first date for a promise ring before accepting the date. Stop trying to do the same thing to H.


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Originally Posted By: Accuray
The difference between a D and a separation agreement is that a D is an official legal ending of the marriage and therefore requires legal representation. Once its done its terms are final. Its expensive to do and the flexibility is limited. Some things cannot be addressed in that context.

A separation agreement need only be as formal as you want to make it, the scope can include whatever you want, and you can mutually agree to change it if it doesn't work out.

In a separation agreement you can stipulate that neither party will take the kids skydiving or riding on the back of a motorcycle. Divorce usually wouldn't cover that. You can cover financial arrangements etc. You can include your right to date other people, PDA in front of the kids etc or don't include that at all.

The point is that you're agreeing on some rules for how things will work while separated, that doesn't imply that you endorse anything he is doing.

Glad to hear he agreed about the family therapist -- I strongly suggest you make the selection and meet with them yourself first to ensure you're on board with what they will recommend.

Accuray


States vary so ask a lawyer, but Accuray makes some nice clear points.

In my case I went to file but my lawyer (who became a friend) suggested a sep instead, b/c it would achieve my main goal at the time. My main goal at that time was to protect our assets b/c h was behaving so oddly and worshipped his heroes on the tundra. I feared he'd mortgage our home to "invest" in their business venture and to this day I believe he would have.

The heroes are being sued now as their venture was a Ponzi scheme. I thought it was but when I pointed it out to h, he said I was being negative, and blew off my counsel. I am sure I was being negative and biased but I was also correct.

2 years ago h mentioned that it's a "good thing WE did not invest w/them" as if he had no idea why "WE" could not...

I didn't bother correcting him b/c there's no point AND thank God he's grateful for the choice made, regardless of how or why it was made.

But MY POINT HERE

is that a separation can achieve some goals and protect you. Depends on your state too.

My lawyer said "I would not file for div if I were you b/c I think you two have something that's not over yet. Just do what you have to do to protect your marital assets and the kids, and see where this goes."

Also, fwiw, in this state, 1/3 of divorces that get filed, are never completed. They get dismissed....

I have more to say but wanted to chime in on this note b/c I think a lot of folks wonder about sep vs divorce.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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Posts: 623
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The funny thing is... giving H space is so much easier now because I feel like I've been doing it for so long that it's now just a natural tendency. I have no desire to do things with him or plan for the future until he does make the actions to end his R with OW HIMSELF. I will not continue to pressure him to do so.

I did tell him last night that I don't want him coming back because of guilt. I want him to want to come back. He expressed to me that his situation with OW is just not a good one. It started from a bad place and he knows it really can't amount to anything good. He was really happy that the therapist said the things he said because he knows he needed to hear it. He said he was glad he came.

I am not going to pursue any longer. I want this man to work for me. I feel like I am a damn fine catch and he really is losing something wonderful, including a wonderful connection, in me that he will always regret if he truly chooses OW over me. He is a good man. I felt like I could see into his soul last night. We stared at each other for a long time. There's a lot to be said in just staring into a person's eyes. There's an energy that runs between the two of you that is undeniable.

I love the advice I'm getting here. I will take it in wholeheartedly. I know I have come so far and I plan to continue to be patient. My family is worth it.


Me: 32 H: 32
M 9 yrs
#1 D7 #2 S5 #3 D2
Bomb 8/12/11
H moved out 8/14/11
PA started w/H & OW in 1/12 - found out 3/24/12
Got my own place 8/25/12
H & OW move in together 9/15/12
Still married.


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JKS,

As you've had time to digest the other night and the feedback received how are you feeling? Have you been able to stay no contact and avoid R talk? You can friend "DB Buddy". I do think that 25 will serve you well as your mentor -- youve also picked up some feedback from some other great vets lately. I hope the new input helps as you are definitely back on the emotional rollercoaster after that session.

Accuray


Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced
M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11
Start Reconcile: 8/15/11
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced)
In a New Relationship: 3/2015
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Originally Posted By: Accuray
JKS,

As you've had time to digest the other night and the feedback received how are you feeling? Have you been able to stay no contact and avoid R talk? You can friend "DB Buddy". I do think that 25 will serve you well as your mentor -- youve also picked up some feedback from some other great vets lately. I hope the new input helps as you are definitely back on the emotional rollercoaster after that session.

Accuray


Accuray, I have to say that you have been one of my biggest strengths throughout this journey. You really have no idea how much you have affected my life and given me some of the best perspectives as I've struggled so much to figure out which way is up. I value so much the time and effort you have put in so freely offering me your wisdom and advice. Just had to tell you that.

As for my feelings of last night. There were so many positives from it that I'm looking at it as a babystep in the right direction. Just like I had said before, being in someone's presence and feeling their energy says a whole lot about a connection that two people share. I felt a lot of that and I know my H felt it too in addition to the conversation we had.

I am not having a need to contact H about our R. I feel like he knows where I stand and he knows what he needs to do. It's just a matter of him being able to follow through with it. Does he want this M to work enough? That is the question. I get that he can be saying a lot of these things but he is definitely going to have back up what he's saying by his actions.

I felt very much that H instigated our R talk last night. I was going to keep quiet. I knew he wanted to know what was on my mind and he was happy to talk about it. This is a huge change on his part. Coming from someone that has a huge problem with sharing feelings and being open with me about what is going on.

I am taking it for what it is. I know he hasn't agreed to reconcile or anything but I'm happy to know that he's seeing the changes in me. It makes me feel like he really isn't saying these things out of guilt. I think he really sees me differently now.

I love what DBing stands for and how much it has changed me from within. I still don't proclaim to be perfect at it. But I feel like I understand the concept completely. Work on yourself from within to find your own self worth and your life will start to fall into place as it should.

The best thing that could have ever come out of this is that I LOVE MYSELF!!! I truly do. It makes me cry just thinking about it. I have struggled with my self-worth for so long and I'm so happy to finally be able to see the beauty and strength from within me.

Wow...


Me: 32 H: 32
M 9 yrs
#1 D7 #2 S5 #3 D2
Bomb 8/12/11
H moved out 8/14/11
PA started w/H & OW in 1/12 - found out 3/24/12
Got my own place 8/25/12
H & OW move in together 9/15/12
Still married.


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Originally Posted By: jks

The best thing that could have ever come out of this is that I LOVE MYSELF!!! I truly do. It makes me cry just thinking about it. I have struggled with my self-worth for so long and I'm so happy to finally be able to see the beauty and strength from within me.

Wow...


Love this, JKS. Congrats! I have been following your journey and am so impressed with your wisdom and growth. ((( )))


Me(f): 51 W: 41
DP:8 M:3 T:10
"W not happy" 7/11
D final: 8/13
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Originally Posted By: needgrace


Love this, JKS. Congrats! I have been following your journey and am so impressed with your wisdom and growth. ((( )))


Thank you, needgrace. That means a lot. Hugs to you too!!!


Me: 32 H: 32
M 9 yrs
#1 D7 #2 S5 #3 D2
Bomb 8/12/11
H moved out 8/14/11
PA started w/H & OW in 1/12 - found out 3/24/12
Got my own place 8/25/12
H & OW move in together 9/15/12
Still married.


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JKS

you asked me to mentor the sitch and I'm guessing this is the place to do it since you gave me this link.

But I think your thread will lock up soon. I read this whole thread (16 pages) but I know there's more. And I'll get to it.

Here are some observations I feel comfortable making for now.

But correct me if I'm off track or not recapping accurately, b/c only you know if this is on target.

Your marriage had problems before OW. Per your description, YOU were a huge part of why things got bad. In fact, per you, the single biggest factor in the deterioration of things was how you handled life in general.

I cannot find a specific reason for your sadness and anger but unless it's h's fault, I think it's more or less irrelevant. Except that you needed to work on it and I'm so glad you did. Kudos to you for digging deep and working on YOU.

So, Your h did his "job" as father and husband as well as he could, but he did yours too.

You were depressed and overwhelmed and your "condition" or selfishness or laziness or low thyroid or whatever it was, went untreated for a long time, as in, years. Presumably he had a lot of unmet needs.

HE covered for you, and apparently for years, he forgave you.

NOW he's with OW but he's confused AND admits it.

Unlike some PAs around here, he's NOT claiming OW is his "soulmate" or that you are evil.

He's not justifying his choice to leave you.


and thankfully you are not fueling his negative images, which led him to leave in the first place. This is extremely good news.

Also thankfully, you are not pretending you played no role in getting him into OW's arms. (Also good news as two big points have already been made that we don't have to spend time belaboring.)

Your h said a LOT of great things right after the t meeting. But it was right after a therapist spoke about the negatives of divorce. BTW I cannot imagine having a t say a better speech than yours did....(YAY!)

Afterwards your h said nearly all that he could say to make it a nearly perfect event. He did not say "I'm leaving her NOW" which would have been perfect although too sudden to trust, and that's why it's pretty close to perfect. I mean, if he had left her then and there, would you have really felt it was his choice versus guilt?

What struck ME the most about what he said, was that he believed you could not forgive him for the affair.

This is huge. There are many WASs, in my opinion, who would consider or who want to come home

but they don't....b/c they don't believe the LBSer will truly forgive them. (OFTEN they are right).


The WAS thinks/fears that the LBSer will hold the affair over their head like the sword of Damacles or throw it in their face every time there's a fight. IF that happens then the marriage is doomed EVEN IF IT "LASTS" b/c then the worst of all choices has been made..."staying married and staying miserable" is not what's best for your kids.

But your growth, if it's maintained, will help him with his and THAT could give your kids a legacy of commitment, forgiveness and redemption.


There will be conflicts ahead in all marriages so don't pretend you won't be tempted...you will be *(and so will he) so you'll need tools to cope with those matters.

There's also a tendency for the LBSer, in piecing, to feel "entitled" to get their way b/c after all, THEY took the WAS back and they forgave.

But don't forget, your h has a lot of forgiving to do too. You both do. That means once you begin piecing, you don't bring up the affair or any other past misdeeds again...ever. The past has passed.

There will be some "trust issues" that you can work on without throwing it in their face and if you are in a bad mood, he's not supposed to say "Oh no, not THAT again", etc.

Do you understand this? It goes both ways.

If you tell him that in order to regain your trust he has to climb Mt Everest but even then it might not be enough for you OR maybe you'll change your mind and move the line in the sand, again, he'll probably bolt. (Who wouldn't?)

So whatever you mean by saying he'll "have to work" to get you back, be clear that if and when he does this "work" (which I would prefer calling a "labor of love" b/c it's not about him suffering or digging a ditch...right???)

you'll welcome him back with open arms.

You won't stand there w/your arms crossed over your chest still making new demands of him proving his love for you...b/c YOU don't feel secure enough.

make sense?

You mentioned the "value of long suffering" in an earlier post. Maybe it's semantics but none of us are here to become martyrs. If you "value" it I hope that does not mean you think you deserve to suffer OR that your h does.

It's not our job as spouses to make them pay or to "teach them a lesson" or "show them the consequences" of their choices. As my DB coach said, "Life does that to them" and I can tell your h already feels it.

If you want your family back and you want to be married to THIS man, you must accept the past and let go of it, just as he has to.

Focus on the part of the vows that say "From this day forward" b/c I think they are crucial.

Neither of you will ever view your marital history identically anyhow. Heck, witnesses to car accidents can't agree on what they saw, so when 2 emotionally involved folks are asked to recite what happened, AND WHY, they rarely see it the same way.

I had to let go of the concept that my h and I would agree on how we got where we were. I had to let go of the idea that to be together we'd have to agree on our past...

I spent a lot of time, while we were apart, on verbalizing the letting go b/c as an exercise it helped me. Meaning--you asked "how"--

I'd say "God, I turn my pain/anger over to you" and I'd say this in the shower so the kids didn't think I was nuts. I said it A LOT. (Found it in a book by Marianne Williamson, who is too new agey for some but her forgiveness work was VERY helpful to me)

Anyhow, Thinking it, saying it out loud and hearing it, all help it sink in.

At times I turned my marriage over to God too. I had to. It was too much for me to grasp and carry and have all the answers for. And it helped me not "lose it" in front of h. My anger at my h did NOT help me or our marriage at all.

He too felt it was too much for me to get past so there were times he felt like giving up b/c after all, what's the point?

I doubt your h will come home b/c of guilt. A conscience isn't the same thing as guilt, imo. But the fact he said he was ashamed of OW says a lot.

His family is trying to "support" him and I know that hurts you.

But I've been a sister to a brother who did this and I told him in private what I thought. But I also was not going to make a scene at holiday or family functions b/c I did not approve of his choices. I am his sister, not his judge.

Condemning him does no one any good. You don't know what they've privately said or thought.

So let's focus on what we CAN know or do...= YOU and your work.

Were your relationships with his family good before all this, or did they believe you mistreated him?

As much as you say people tell YOU to divorce him these days, might he be able to say the same about the situation in the past?

I mean, if you were the big sad drag you describe yourself as being, might HE have heard those same words at times?

Just food for thought...

SIDENOTE--

You hit the nail on the head when you realized in the grand scheme of things how lucky we are. This is key to making it thru our dark nights...

No one is shooting at us or raping us or kidnapping our son's to be soldiers in their "army". That is happening now, as you read this, to someone else.

We have shelter. A bad storm won't cave in our "home".

We have food and it's in our ELECTRIC refrigerators....we HAVE refrigerators...

and as financially strapped as we may feel, we know there will be some food in there when we open the door to our refrigerator and again, tomorrow there will be something to eat.

WE have access to health care, our children were vaccinated, and they are healthy. We are well too, with no deteriorating illness or debilitating disease nor are we amputees from war or maimed...(my h works with Wounded Warriors and it's a powerful thing to see a 25 y/o woman missing her hands, but feeling that they are "on fire", b/c that is what her nerve endings tell her brain).

We know our h's are alive. They did not disappear in the desert or jungle.

Despite the r problems we have, you know you are physically surviving this day...this week and this month.

These facts ^^^above, mean that our lives are in the top 3% of lives, worldwide....


think about that some time. In the grand scheme of things our pain is real but it's not eternal or fatal. We are far FAR more fortunate than the vast majority of women in the world.

When I hear someone say "this is so unfair" I just say 'Fair'? Go to Africa...


back to YOU, what are your GAL? You have a talent for photography so are you working to increase your income in that?

Have you seen a L to know your rights? (you do not have to DO anything but listen to learn b/c you may feel empowered to stay married, not trapped by fears of what MIGHT happen if you two divorce).

Have you joined a club or taken a class? We hammer the whole GAL thing b/c it really helps YOU FEEL BETTER

and seem less predictable to h, which shows CHANGE on your end

b/c we both know that

the more he believes marriage to you can be better/different,

the more likely he is to want to make it work.


How are YOU showing him that it can be better/different?

What changes can he see in YOU other than weight loss/gain?

Again, kudos to you for all the growth you've experienced.

If you get a chance, look up a workshop called Essential Experience, on the east coast. I don't know where you live but it's profoundly helpful in making real & lasting changes in your life. Seeing the changes in me, led my h to attend it too.

I only mention this b/c weekly sessions with a t, even a great one, are usually not sufficient to make the behavioral changes and the paradigm shifts we have to make.

But regardless, I have to say WELL DONE!


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 623
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Wow, a lot to think about, 25. You are really quite amazing in so many ways.

My depression started, I think, from my childhood. Very dysfunctional family... alcoholic father who didn't really play a huge part in my life, a mother that had major anger issues (which is where I get it from) and crazy brothers and sisters that were constantly getting into major trouble.

I had good friends growing up, which I think is the only thing that "saved" me. But my self esteem has always been low just due to the fact that I never really liked my personality. People think I'm weird when I tell them that but it has been something I've struggled with my entire life.

I also was not raised with good cleaning habits. Our house was always a mess. My mom was a semi-hoarder which all has carried on into my M.

H's mother is the complete opposite. She is overkill on the cleaning and cannot stand to see a mess. Which carries on into H. We were a perfect match from the start, huh!!

I didn't ever realize that I had depression and that I had it so severely up until a year or so ago. Add on Adult ADD and I am a hot mess. H and I both didn't know what to do so therefore we just kept on with more of the same.

As I had more children my depression deepened. I had too much responsibility that I couldn't get on top of. My oldest D6 is a difficult child... very high strung, wants her way all the time, and stirs up contention in the home. She tends to stunt any kind of train of thought I ever have because I'm so focused on trying to settle her down, discipline her, or stop her from doing something. She does not mind me at all. (We are working on this.)

So for someone who has ADD already and has to deal with a difficult child, plus two other young children while also dealing with depression because of the fact that I can't get anything done... my world was spiraling downward fast. I was always angry, moody, and snappy. H has always been kind and easygoing with me.

But there were times that I could tell I had really hurt him. I was too prideful sometimes to recognize it and apologize. There were times that I would cry and tell him that I was so sorry for the things that I put him through and I was sorry I didn't help more. I told him, I try to, I don't know what it is, I just can't do it. Too much going on in my head and bad habits had formed over the years that were hard to change.

He continued to enable me which eventually left me paralyzed. I literally would walk in a messy room and just stare at it and not know where to start. So I would NEVER start. My head couldn't take it.

This has been my main thing I have been working on along with changing my attitude towards life. I was "Debbie Downer." And this is why I hated myself so much.

I still struggle a little everyday to follow through with some tasks but for the majority of the time, I'm pretty on top of things now. And it feels really good to take control of my life again.

So when H states that I seem more put together... I'm pretty sure that's what he means. I'm not perfect at it, but I've come to realize that the perfectionist in me is the reason I got there in the first place. It doesn't have to be perfect. It just needs to get done. I get it now.

Also, I wanted to explain what I meant by "long suffering." I see it as enduring to the end. Not giving up through hard times. I didn't mean to be a martyr and to cause other people to suffer. Just wanted to clarify on that.

So many times I have turned to God to help me know what to do, or help me ease my pain. And so many times I am reminded that if I continue to do the things I should be doing... things will work out the way they are supposed to. I have a closer R with God now than I've ever had in my entire life. I feel like this was also a big reason for me needing to experience this tragedy because I needed to change my priorities in a major way.

The last thing I wanted to talk about was making H "work" to get me back. I meant that as him really showing me that he wants this. Not just telling me. What would that take? Well, for starters... the obvious, cut off all contact with OW. Make me a priority. (That was a huge thing lacking in our R. Everything else came before each other, we both realize that.) Put forth the effort to share his feelings with me... open up more.

For so long I've felt like I have put myself out there so much and I made myself really vulnerable. I realize I did that last night as well. I need to stop doing that. He really has this way of making you feel like you can trust him. You can tell him anything and it will be safe with him.

I'm learning that I can't really trust him right now and so those things need to be kept to myself until he's completely ready to commit. If that day ever comes.


Me: 32 H: 32
M 9 yrs
#1 D7 #2 S5 #3 D2
Bomb 8/12/11
H moved out 8/14/11
PA started w/H & OW in 1/12 - found out 3/24/12
Got my own place 8/25/12
H & OW move in together 9/15/12
Still married.


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