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Originally Posted By: Kaffe Diem
That's a really good question, Val.

I think the most accurate answer, at least recently, is no... I have not called her on it.

KD, I know I'm late here, but I'm trying to catch up.

My friend, I have to call you on you^^^ NOT calling her on it.


wth?

You discussed how hard it is to be a mind reader and are giving up on trying to figure HER out,

but evidently you want her to be a mind reader with you. I have a feeling she has no clue you resent the topic changes. She may have some ADD and,

I hope my feminist friends won't shun me, but "peri menopausal" hormones can affect memory in the short term and act, effectively, like ADD symptoms.

(Who knows? Gee now I forget, where was I? I like bikes.. OH yeah...)
wink

You refer to the communication problems and they SEEM to come from her end, using 3rd parties and or changing the arrangements, blowing up, seeming to manipulate, etc.

(BTW, sidenote- I really don't get the big deal about the gifts.

I DO see the problem if your feelings are being pulled and you are confused and that hurts or slows your growth/detachment. I'd get that.

But I would not "feel manipulated" or get angry. Just self protective. So if that is your paradigm, I get it, but if you are reading negatives into it on her end

as if she's consciously trying to do a mean thing by giving you items that show concern or affection, I would not buy that. OF course you know her way better but that's just my take on it.

"So, BACK TO THE TOPIC AT HAND".
..(See how easy that was??)

So after saying that her communication skills sukk, then geez, you haven't called her on just staying on topic? And it bugs you a lot. And That's not even that hot a topic, KD.

Just give a short answer to the tangents she goes on, and then segue back to the topic at hand. Even say it out loud-

"well, glad to hear the news about your mom (or whatever minimum reply you need to give to show basic courtesy concern, esp if it's genuine. But KD, come on, we're talking about less than a minute of your time)

then say "but BACK TO THE TOPIC AT HAND"... OR

"hey sorry but I'm in a rush, so We need to stay on topic. "

If there is a problem to resolve, frame it in a way that shows you two are at least appearing to work together b/c after all, you two ARE parents of your kids and you do both love them, etc...give her the benefit of the doubt b/c I really believe giving her something to live UP TO will help but probably only over time.
Maybe frame it this way-

"W, Right now the two issues to resolve are A and B and the only options that could work for both of us, as far as I can see, are "C" and "D". DID I miss another option? Do you see one?

If not, Can you let me know which one works best for you by "Tuesday" b/c I have to work out my schedule/work/vacation/time off/school? etc..."

and OR

"SO getting back to the issue I came to discuss"

OR if she brings up something that maybe deserves time - but just NOT THEN,

tell her you would prefer tabling it by saying "W that's important to talk about too, but just for now we'll have to table it so we can make a decision about the first issue..."

AND OR

"Can we get back to that question? Thanks, I really appreciate it."

THEN DO IT YOURSELF...do not wait for her to stay on track or get back on track...do not ask for permission...

although it's polite to appear to be asking,
as if you are posing a question to her but I'm not. You just need to stay on topic by YOU STAYING ON TOPIC...


She is now using a third party to communicate with me. The person who I picked up D9 from today was asked by W to pass on the "long weekend" question.

if this^^ is a one time deal, no biggie. She may have simply wanted to avoid conflict. But I'd WRITE to her that using a 3rd party isn't cool to resolve any issues re: the kids...just not cool and besides,

using a third party violates the SA (I assume)

and IT LACKS CLARITY, which is why direct communication always beats indirect.


I have been fighting for time with the kids since this started. I'm a bit shell shocked on that and now I'm jumping on every chance to be with the kids. And I would be, it makes sense, it is the life I lived until I moved out. Every day, every moment, I was available to the kids... I could be with them... well, of course not during school, but...

33 years of my life I lived spontaneously... for 11 years after that, I tried to fit into "routine", but had my challenges... 11 years with someone who (apparently) craved consistency and routine... now that I have the opportunity to be spontaneous again... I crave consistency... and I'm having spontaneity pushed on me...


I hear you. In a way I relate b/c my h's choices (some of which were unilateral) have created great chaos in our lives, once again.

His Army reserve unit being deployed overseas totally sukks for our family (and me too, b/c I don't like not having my mate around b/c hey, that was the reason I married all those years ago, not to live as a single mom)

Even though I feel pride, I also feel fury at him...(go figure)

BUT MY POINT IS

life itself, and raising kids and them changing as they get older, also all throw things at us we didn't expect.

I mean, WE have to be flexible even if what we want is consistency, and then, it's not what we want OR what life gives us anymore...

so that change thing, isn't all on her.

Make sense?



As much as I would love to have D9 with me the extra day... I just want to get accustomed to the schedule... even with the SA, she's tossing out requests for her weekend at the last minute... I have no opportunity to plan. Things are different for me now, so planning my time with the kids is important.


SAY THIS TO HER^^^^calmly, of course. Sticking to the SA is for the sake of clarity and IF it suits YOU, you can be flexible if/when you feel like it.

But that statement is fair and it's clear, and for now those are your immediate communication goals, correct?


I think that's it... that's my answer... that's what I want...

Thanks, Val! grin


me likey!

cool


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
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Hey 25. Hope all is well with you... smile

Thanks for the reminder that we are here to learn and practice and grow. Expressing myself in what I want in a concise way with her (and people) is certainly something that I can get better at.

Am I avoiding that learning? Maybe. I still want nothing to do with her and if I can learn and practice that elsewhere, with someone else... well, I'd be open to that.

In all fairness, I now have what I want and I did not have to talk to her about it. Please don't make me... wink

Just getting on with my life... cool

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ok 25, I did not want to get into it too much at the time. I do have a moment to read through your post again.

TBH, I really am doing my best (and I'm doing pretty good at this, these day) of not reading into anything regarding my W and our past or current sitch. I'm just getting on with my life and want to do so without her, atm.

I never thought there might be ADD or hormonally induced ADD like symptoms. Yeah, that could be true. I do have to concede there is some medical history with my W which could point to some of the behaviours.

Yes, the gifts were still a bit confusing. I get that she might still be trying to be friends, but I really don't want to be her friend. I HAVE told her that on a number of occasions, in the past. Still, it did irk me that she would send the brandy chocolates with D9 under the premise they were for my alcoholic parents. Either she's completely lost her mind to a fact that she's known for the past 12 years or she just won't be honest. I let that one go. It bothered me at the time, now I no longer care.

It's already been a few weeks now from that post (I think) and I'm in a much better head space, now. I was just frustrated with it. She wanted flexibility and I agreed. So really, that was not working for me as it made things hard for me to schedule and I just want consistency right now. So it was good that I did at least communicate my desire for consistency. That was certainly a 180 for me.

I will try to remember to keep convos on topic. Although for me, that itself is a difficult thing to do... wink Staying on topic... and focused...

squirrel...

grin

On the 3rd party comm... that was the last time it has happened... so it's certainly a non-issue, now. I actually don't think it's against the SA, although at one time I was considering making comm through a 3rd party mandatory. That's when I was emotionally messed up...

I'm better... now... crazy

I certainly am focused on consistency this summer. Last summer's schedule was... a non-event... so I'm a little gun shy on that. I can imagine I will eventually be open to flexibility... and possibly increased contact with my W... for now... not so much...

Thanks for the feedback as always, 25... cool

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Originally Posted By: Kaffe Diem
ok 25, I did not want to get into it too much at the time. I do have a moment to read through your post again.

TBH, I really am doing my best (and I'm doing pretty good at this, these day) of not reading into anything regarding my W and our past or current sitch. I'm just getting on with my life and want to do so without her, atm.

I never thought there might be ADD or hormonally induced ADD like symptoms. Yeah, that could be true. I do have to concede there is some medical history with my W which could point to some of the behaviours.

Yes, the gifts were still a bit confusing. I get that she might still be trying to be friends, but I really don't want to be her friend. I HAVE told her that on a number of occasions, in the past. Still, it did irk me that she would send the brandy chocolates with D9 under the premise they were for my alcoholic parents. Either she's completely lost her mind to a fact that she's known for the past 12 years or she just won't be honest. I let that one go. It bothered me at the time, now I no longer care.

It's already been a few weeks now from that post (I think) and I'm in a much better head space, now. I was just frustrated with it. She wanted flexibility and I agreed. So really, that was not working for me as it made things hard for me to schedule and I just want consistency right now. So it was good that I did at least communicate my desire for consistency. That was certainly a 180 for me.

I will try to remember to keep convos on topic. Although for me, that itself is a difficult thing to do... wink Staying on topic... and focused...

squirrel...

grin

On the 3rd party comm... that was the last time it has happened... so it's certainly a non-issue, now. I actually don't think it's against the SA, although at one time I was considering making comm through a 3rd party mandatory. That's when I was emotionally messed up...

I'm better... now... crazy

I certainly am focused on consistency this summer. Last summer's schedule was... a non-event... so I'm a little gun shy on that. I can imagine I will eventually be open to flexibility... and possibly increased contact with my W... for now... not so much...

Thanks for the feedback as always, 25... cool


KD -


You show a LOT of wisdom here, ESPECIALLY with your flexibility.

So, if you were going to put yourself in your W's shoes...what do you thing she might be looking for from YOU...what do you think HER perspective is? If there was something you could do that would fill her heart....what's your wild guess??



Thank you so much for all you do on the board, esp with Newcomers. I say that personally, and for the DB staff.


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As always dbmod, I am humbled by your appreciation of my efforts and contribution here.

Speaks right to my "Words of Affirmation" LL... grin

Thank you. smile

Originally Posted By: dbmod
So, if you were going to put yourself in your W's shoes...what do you thing she might be looking for from YOU...what do you think HER perspective is? If there was something you could do that would fill her heart....what's your wild guess??


Wow, dbmod. 24 hours later and I still have nothing.

The following is over analytical and lengthy as I continue to resist considering just being in the situation. I know how to "just be". I believe I was doing exactly that in the M. Life got in the way and I gave up on the M, which is why I am here. I fully concede that as a fact.

12 years ago, I was somewhat infatuated and wanting to start a family. I was getting needs met that were important to me at the time and I proposed to my W.

While I was not originally attracted to my W, I became attached to her and we shared some great times together and raised two, beautiful daughters.

I now find myself at a similar frame of mind as 12 years ago. I am not attracted to my W. She is not someone whom I would meet and think to myself, "I would love to get to know her better." What I do know about her, there are many things that we do not have in common and some that outright frustrate me (I'm simply talking about things like musical interests or food, for example).

So as I ponder the question you pose, I realize that I have to keep out of the equation, my current reality that this is someone I would not want to M. I have to think of this from a perspective of someone whom I have some common interest with, but whom I would otherwise have only a modicum of friendship with.

I acknowledge that I say the above from a very self centric perspective which is opposite of what you asked.

The truth is, I'm a sucker for someone who pays me attention in anything more than a superficial way. My other LL being "Quality Time".

Following my LLs has got me into more trouble than I care to admit. Some of it actually life threatening.

So I have to admit that I'm resisting your question and actually am very stressed considering your question. To the point that I fell asleep contemplating it this evening at 8pm. 4 hours before I normally go to bed. A strong indicator for me of emotional stress manifesting as physical symptoms.

To give your question a quick, once over, I would have to first say, "I have absolutely no idea what my W might be looking to me, for."

I've been going over LLs and personality traits and (known or assumed; by me) behaviours of my W in order to consider this. Still working on it.

I truly believe that at this time, my W wants nothing from me. I can only imagine that I am the other responsible partner for the children. I don't even feel that she sees my responsibility of the children in any romantic terms, rather simply as someone who SHOULD take the children when she needs respite.

Does she appear to want to connect with me? Perhaps. At least there appeared to be aspects of her clinging to a relationship that she herself was not willing to let go.

If I were not so cynical, I could believe that she agreed to M me not just as emotionally, physically, and (possibly more importantly to her) financially supportive, but that she actually loved me for some of my characteristics. My fun side, my (at least some times) sense of humour, her acknowledgement of my emotional steadiness, my intimate attention to her needs (emotionally and physically), my free spirit, my charm, my intelligence and/or problem solving skills...

That was the past.

I do know that if she still cherishes the above, she is seeking that elsewhere, as well she would / should. If this were not merely a M break down, if I died, I would not wish that she not seek to have her needs met by another. And the above certainly are no less than she might find in another, or at least some semblance of those things.

I have no reason to believe she would seek those things from me. I am not saying that I am not worthy. I am simply indicating that I am not uncommon nor irreplaceable. The only reason she might seek that from me would be due to familiarity. That doesn't make it wrong, just the reality of it. A reason to seek from me.

So what might my W be looking for, from me? IDK. If she'd not be seeking the above from me, then what?

Perhaps just to be the father of her children.

To fill her heart? Again, lots to go over. I'm still working on that.

I'll just summarize at this point to say that there may be some things that I could do to fill her heart, if I still know her well enough. Then again, I do not know if I know (ever knew) what might fill her heart vs. what simply serves her, which she translates into love.

Maybe that's not really fair, because to someone who's LL is NOT words of affirmation, they would not "get" why hearing that they are appreciated and valued, makes them feel loved. So I can't rightly discount her reality of what it means to feel loved... or to give love... Nor how things of that nature (our LLs) can be misinterpreted as love when they were not intended that way.

I understand that I need to not consider the future and what it might take to get to "that place" again. Rather, to allow things... life... to develop organically...

So I understand that I need to keep my emotions out of the equation when I consider what might fill her heart. To disregard how she might feel and whether I want her to feel "that way".

No, that too is unfair. I do not need to keep my emotions out of the equation. I need do nothing. Just be.

I still struggle with what I think I want and don't want... versus just letting things happen as they will...

So...

Still thinking about this... cool

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Well, I've thought about this some more and still don't know if I have an answer.

During my pick up of D9 yesterday, I was perfectly in character of the person I know my W was attracted to when we met.

The focus of convo was D9. I have asked for this and I got what I asked for. In the mean time, D9 brought up a health concern of W's which had flared this past week, so W and I talked about that for a bit. It was pleasant, I validated (very well, thank you) and that was that.

I am very sure that W would not have brought up the health concern if D9 had not mentioned it.

All in all, it appears that my W is behaving like someone I knew from years back, maybe someone from school and we knew each other but never really hung out, and we happened to cross paths at a social gathering, shared some brief words, and went on our separate ways. No real, "how are you, what's been going on in your life, stay for some coffee", etc.

In that specific context, all I can say is that my W wants nothing from me. That her perspective was simply that. That I am someone whom she knows but has no real interest or desire to build a relationship with.

What I DO know is there was another context going on at that time at her place. Friends who have been supporting her were at the house in the back yard, they had gathered to prepare for a weekend concert next weekend and were working on needed props for their camp site. Something that she very clearly avoided saying, even though an unfamiliar kid came out of the house and distracted my W for a moment, of whom she did not even acknowledge his presence to me, directly.

In that context, my W was giving a very clear impression that her personal business continues to be none of my business.

That being the case, I do not know if it is possible or even appropriate for me to attempt to fill the love bucket of someone who clearly has no interest in deepening a R with me.

In the mean time, out of the blue D9 mentioned on the ride home that she was happy that W and I had a friendly convo. She asked if we were friends now and I said IDK. I was completely, unemotional during this as though we were talking about whether I was friends with a parent of a friend of hers. She then came around to saying that we were friends and M but did not love each other and I said I wasn't sure about that. And then D9 said she didn't think W loved me, and started to cry. Poor thing. She gave me "the sign" that she wanted to end the talk and so it was. I listened, she had talked, I offered no elaboration and only validated her, she completely led and ended that convo. I was sad that she was sad. And I asked her if she wanted me to make her laugh, now. And she said, yes. So I did.

At this time, I am very sure that my W wants nothing from me other than what is.

And I am very sure that my W would be uncomfortable with any act that she might recognize as filling her love bucket.

I don't think that at this time I need to give this any more thought.

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I just wanted to post this quick, a couple contexts here:

+ one is my R with my W
+ one is my W's context of her life

D14 updated her status on a social networking forum saying that she texted her mom and told her to come home, soon. And that her mother texted back and said, "who are you, my mother?"

Certainly light hearted to which D14 posted a follow up saying that she texted her mom back to say "get your butt home soon or you're grounded".

So, in context to me and my W, or more specifically towards the idea of what my W's perception might be and what she might want from me, is that IF my W is MLC, it appears that she's currently back into replay. I don't think that in her current mindset of her life, she has any desire to "settle down" or otherwise be within the "constraints" of what I might represent to her.

In the context of my W's life, it appears that she simply wants to continue living her life doing what ever makes her happy and not be constrained by the daily doldrums of life. Not anything many of us aspire to. Who wants to be held back from having fun and releasing the stresses of life.

The above might just suggest that nothing has changed for my W nor her perspective, over the past two years.

I still move forward with my own life.

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I think lastly, for the sake of continuity, as this will likely be my last contact with my W until some time around the 5th or so of July, I figure I will make this last observation.

I notice I did not give a time stamp for D14's update re: her mom coming home. The time was approximately 1am. Not that it matters, I'm just stating something that remains consistent with my W.

If I was single (wait, I am) and if I had friends who were wanting me to join them at some event, would I get engaged in the process? Yes, I probably would. In fact, as I am somewhat experience oriented, I would involve myself significantly in the process of preparing for the event and probably fully engage in the experience during the event.

I'm saying that because I can not judge my W for spear heading the process of getting ready for the 5 day party this coming weekend. Do I feel it is a little childish? Perhaps, although I'm a fan of Halloween, and believe there's no harm in an adult, regardless of their age, doing silly things and not quite "acting their age".

Am I a little jealous? Yeah, probably. I think it would probably be fun and so I do not want to suggest that my W is otherwise acting out and reliving some childhood fantasy. Even though that may be the case. It is possibly just a moment and not a lifestyle (although it appears that way, sometimes).

That's projection for sure. So if I were to put myself in my W's shoes, I would not necessarily think that I was doing anything "wrong", per se.

From a responsible perspective, I know that D9 will be on a trip with W's mom. What I do not know is, what of D14? I have no doubt that D14 will be at home by herself but probably spending a lot of time with friends, maybe even doing sleepovers. And she IS actually capable of taking care of herself.

Again, from my W's perspective, I am sure that she has taken care of the child responsibilities. And the difference would be, I would not choose to go to the event over being with my kids. That's regardless of the current sitch. Just a personal choice. She's allowed her choice, I'm allowed mine.

So last physically observable experience of my W until next contact as I mentioned above...

I was dropping D9 off at a going away party for a friend of her's. We went to drop off stuff she did not want to take with her to the party. My W was gone and D9 did what she needed in the house. As we pulled away, I noticed W pulling up to the house. No big deal.

What was interesting was a minute later, I notice my W's car in my rear view mirror. So I pull over. W wanted to ask if we found a gift for D9 to take (we had already grabbed something from the store so didn't need it). And then, she asks if D9 grabbed a Father's day card she'd been forgetting to give to me (and W said she'd kept forgetting to pack). So while it could have waited, I went back to the house.

On arriving back at the house, my W (whom on catching up to me and talking moments prior was very pleasant) suddenly detached completely and did not even acknowledge my arrival at the house. She unloaded her car and did not even look my way. D9 came back to the car and away we went.

BTW: What an AWESOME f-day card! cool

So again, I'm not really caught up in any of this at all, but I'm writing this out in reference to the question of what my W might want from me.

As I've been expressing, it certainly appears that nothing has changed in regards to my W wanting anything from me, for the past two years. At best, what has changed is my reacting to her behaviours. And that has at least created a modicum of civility in our R at least, and at best we are able to have moments of pleasant convo and don't bother engaging the other during times we may feel duress.

I am not waiting for her to change her ways with me before I change my ways with her. Is there anything I could do to change my behaviours to change the sitch? Possibly.

From my observations though, I would suspect that being any more pleasant with her would require me to engage her more in convo and contact. Something that it does not appear she wants, from me.

I have not yet felt any sense that I am otherwise welcome on the property nor in the house, without the knowledge and express permission by my W, which appears to only be when picking up or dropping off D9. I suspect that my W would not be receptive of random drop ins for the purpose of visiting with the kids nor with my W.

Any written communication with my W continues for the most part to be responded to with effort, if responded to at all or within any form of timeliness. I do try to ensure that comm from me is limited to things that do not require an immediate response, for that reason.

I do not feel that phone communication would be otherwise necessary nor appropriate as like being on the property, I get a sense that my W would see that as an invasion of her privacy.

So, I'm not sure if I am simply missing something that might otherwise be obvious if I were observing someone else' sitch.

Or was this simply an exercise to see if I was still somehow emotionally attached or if I had finally detached enough to be able to observe the sitch from a rational, third person perspective.

I believe I've dug and analysed and did my best to try to see things from my W's perspective through objective eyes. And in all fairness, I truly believe that my W's eye's just are not directed my way.

The only thing that might be, as I said above, interesting... is that my W would remember the f-day card and use that as a reason to chase me down the street and get me to come back to the house, for. From what I understand, my W's memory is still quite poor (I understand it's a symptom of her health condition and not of medication), yet something triggered her to remember it, without actually having gone into the house, into D9's room and actually seeing that the f-day card was not there.

And... all that is to me, is interesting...

So again, as far as I know, all I can do is move on... and I'm OK with that...

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OK, fine.

She wants a connection with me.

So, if I allow that to happen, that doesn't mean that I have to stay M to her, right?

Now I just have to figure out how I can do that within something NEAR to my comfort zone.

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meh...

I started rolling the ball...

Let my W know that I have a job...

She responded... offered "support" with the kids if I need it...

ball back in my court...

also congratulated me on the job... wants to know a little more about it...

yeah, ok... it's positive...

I just want everyone to know that I don't want to...

grump...

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