Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
How does one build a R without trust? How does one build trust when it is continually broken? How does one rebuild trust when the other person really isn't doing anything to try?
it's what we all ask ourselves, when we are in doubt - especially when the other person is not trying at all, or doesn't seem to be in our eyes, in the way we want them to.
i think it's a question of faith. there is no reason to trust anyone or anything. but the decision to trust is within your control, just as much as the decision to leave is within your control. it's a matter of choosing - not waiting for it to be proved to you in advance.
living one's life with the attitude that"i will only do things that i can trust and feel safe about in advance", is putting the onus on an external thing or person. it FEELS safer, but is very misleading because one is always dependent on something or someone else to make them happy.
but when you can get to a point where your happiness comes from within because you have worked through your issues and you are centered, grounded and independent, then sharing your life with another doesn't get affected by how safe or unsafe you feel with them, because you are responsible for your own emotional health and safety.
the fact that you feel so unsafe with h indicates strongly that you are expecting him to fulfill some need within that you shouldn't be asking him for in the first place, nor should he be asking for it from you.
it also indicates that you are not ready to decide whether you even want to be with him or not. your decision about wanting to be with him should be about why and how you want to share your life together and whether you two are a good fit.
i think the ultimate answer to your question is that only when you start and continue to do the work on yourself , will you eventually get to the place where these questions won't even need to be asked.
all these months i have had so many questions - and felt so frustrated when no one could give me an answer. now, as i keep working on myself, i find that i don't really need answers to these questions any more, and i am having way more faith and trust - and it genuinely surprises me - i didn't expect that
zig
me 46 H 38 M10yrs T 11 S10 BD ow 8/11 h filed 9/25/12
"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"
Accuray, thanks for the list of books. I actually have/read one of those books, "Too good to leave, to bad to say." I might check out the other two, but honestly, I think I've run out of enthusiasm for trying right now. I'll make a note, for later.
Yes, Zig, I am the WAW. H has never been. He is the LBS and has read DB with a positive response, at least intellectually. You're inserting a lot into my posts that isn't there, like the above, and like stating that I read the quote everyday to keep the WAS perspective fresh in my mind. What you're inserting is not true - period. It's not my opinion or perspective, it's a tangible fact. I almost feel like you're projecting, which is understandable, it happens. But I don't know how to address the invalid insertions of yours without being accused of being argumentative, so unless you ask for clarification, I just won't comment on the invalid statements.
BTW, I've read your sitch. You have a LOT going on, had a lot going on. I don't envy your sitch. It seems like you're doing a great job evaluating your contributions to the problems. I feel for you. I also feel for your H. I can see why he would just want to get away from the stress/burden. Tough road!
I did want to ask you ... do you believe there is such a thing as a "bully"? Or is the victim just not "centered, grounded and independent" enough and if they'd get their stuff together, there wouldn't be a problem?
Adinva, you asked, "why are you constantly devastated that he eats off your plate?" How was I "devastated?" Devastated is a pretty extreme reaction to me and I don't remember indicating anything more than being offended. At best, I said I'm hurt because I've specifically asked him to respect my wishes and he doesn't. I'm just curious what you are referring to when you said I was devastated by it? What did I communicate that caused you to interpret it that way?
Also, I found and read your notes on the Pia Mellody CD's on boundaries. A number of things tweaked my interest. I'll have to add that to my list. I would say I've developed some good boundaries over the years, but they definitely have holes in them. Something for me to work on for me.
I spent some time at the pool yesterday reading the book Passionate Marriage that someone suggested. I've read about a third of it, but I'm going to need to put it down for a while. It's too much about sexual R's and too much incorporating the cooperative actions of two people for me to digest right now. It's interesting, though, so I'll have to come back to it.
Originally Posted By: Needgrace
do you think that might be what is going on? you both feel unsafe and thus, no one takes the risk to love?
Yes, he has fear as well. He told me he has fear of walking in the same room as me, because he's afraid I might ask him a question like, "How have I changed in the M?" like I was charged with asking him last week. And several months ago, I asked him what he saw his role to be in this M, which he hasn't answered. These are the things he said he fears.
It has been a week since I asked H the question of how I've changed, to which he asked for time, said he'd think about it and get back to me. I asked him last night if he had come up with anything else. No, he had forgotten, hadn't thought about it at all. I wasn't surprised. Does that mean I have expectations that I shouldn't have? Perhaps expecting that he will do what he said he will do? Or perhaps expecting that he won't because that has been my experience? I don't know how to live life completely clueless so that I wouldn't have any expectations.
So how did it make me feel? Disappointed, in it being the same old same old. And somewhat sad, but in a very distant sort of way. If it rains on your picnic plans, it's still a bummer, even if you knew it was probably going to. Still some joy in hoping anyway. Maybe it's not even sadness, but the loss of that joy, of the anticipation of a pleasant surprise.
Hi there - I'm glad you stepped away to the pool. I find myself obsessed with divorce and relationships and stuff sometimes to the point where I have to get some space from it, hope you did.
You're right about my comment - devastated is a bit overly dramatic. But without going back and rereading I have noted that you bring it up frequently and it sort of serves as an example of the many ways he just doesn't listen or change, which is offensive to your soul as much as to your dinner. At least to me it would be. It kind of serves as an example of the hopelessness of your sitch if H just won't stop eating off your plate (figuratively and literally).
What I suggested was that you put off looking for behavior changes of his, because it's too early in the process. First you need to work to change the dynamic that happens with you two, and that can be done just by changing you. If you want to.
So using the plate example, I had suggested some alternate responses and I wondered what you thought of them. They would involve dissociating the hand reaching out from your sense that he utterly disregards what you clearly tell him you need. Lose the offendedness. It's a feeling based on the thoughts you have about his action, and you can change your thoughts. Take action to protect your boundary (move your plate away, etc) and hopefully begin to erase the bad feelings that make it so difficult for you to even be sure you want to be in the relationship.
I dunno. Trying to grasp at the things I think might help. Take care, Best regards,
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
Yup, sometimes obsessed, admittedly. It was good to get away, but now I'm thinking I wish I would have brought a different book, something just for fun.
You're right on the plate thing. It has become symbolic in my posts, not that it happens constantly or that when he does, it somehow devastates me. And sorry if I was jumping on you in some way. H has a tendency to do that and I've developed a sensitivity to it. If H ate off my plate and I calmly asked him not to do that with even the slightest tone, he would tell you I went ballistic. Just trying to figure out if it's something I'm putting out there.
Quote:
Lose the offendedness. It's a feeling based on the thoughts you have about his action, and you can change your thoughts. Take action to protect your boundary (move your plate away, etc) and hopefully begin to erase the bad feelings that make it so difficult for you to even be sure you want to be in the relationship.
This is interesting. I read your suggestions about the plate thing. I've been offered them before too. I think they're good suggestions and should work. So this past weekend, we went out to breakfast with H's parents. There were 5 of us, and I sat at the farthest position possible. Seating worked out well, didn't embarrass anyone or make anyone feel awkward, just sort of slipped it in that way. H can't even reach my plate. We get finished eating, S has some leftover fries and offers them to H, so H looks across the table and says to me in a volume that everyone can hear, "I'm not taking them off his plate, S said I could have them." That was rather awkward for me. Am I wrong?
The thing I find most interesting about your post is that I feel I'm reacting the way I am because I'm trying to protect my boundaries. With H, in order to enforce one, it seems I have to choose to breach another. One of my boundaries is not acting in a way that ruins dinner for everyone else because H and I have a dysfunctional R. To get up and leave the dinner table in the middle of dinner as was suggested at another time would protect my "respect MY food ownership" boundary but breach my "don't ruin it for everyone else" boundary. By not going to dinner with him at all, I can protect both.
The problem is that there doesn't seem to be anything left that we can do together.
Hi. I'm so drawn to your sitch. I think it reminds me a lot of mine, but you voice things I stuffed down inside.
I think your meal this past weekend sounds great. First, you managed the seating in a sensible way. Second you heard from H that he's trying to remember you don't like this habit. Sorry that felt awkward to you, which I could see, because it's a little belligerent, but it would be worth noting and rewarding the effort and ignoring the delivery.
What you mentioned about him saying you went ballistic is interesting. He is able to manipulate you with his reactiveness, so that you're reluctant to enforce your boundary (nonpunitively) because you want to avoid his (punitive) response. In the Boundaries tapes, that would be a case where you let his statement float up to your boundary, consider the validity of it, and let it bounce off because it is invalid. So you don't have to get upset or mad that he said it. You might say "I didn't intend for you to think I was going ballistic. I don't want you to eat off my plate."
The "don't ruin it for everyone else" is a problematic boundary, since it involves two things you don't control - his behavior and everyone else's perception of it.
So, you like to eat out together. How about a cooking class together? Or...see a movie? Or...
Let's see, my IC would say to enforce a boundary you need to express it first and state what you will need to do, and get agreement that it's fair and the other person will try to accommodate it. So it would go like this. Before you go out to dinner you say, "H I'm really looking forward to this dinner, and am glad to spend the time with you. I want to discuss ahead of time my boundary about food so we can both feel comfortable. As you know, I feel disrespected when you take food off my plate, so I'm going to ask you not to do that tonight, and if you reach out, I'm going to cover my plate with my (knife! napkin! hands!) as a quiet reminder so we don't have a scene that is embarassing to me. Will you agree to that?" Hopefully he says Yes Dear I will! But he has just as much right to say "no way jose, I am the man and I eat what I see, beware!" to which you might agree to still go but arrange to sit far away from him, or you might decide not to go. Without animosity you negotiate this to meet your need for your plate of food and his need for more food than he got served. It's kind of a funny example, but in my sitch I love stuff like this because it's a sandbox to practice in, and represents larger issues that are more serious. Still the skills build. For me, it was dog poop, my early posts are littered with it, ha.
It's the absence of animosity and judgment. It's the acceptance that your H and you have different ideas about plates. It's the realization that you aren't going to get along if you read his behavior as a symbol of overall boorishness (judgment) but handle his behavior as an objective thing that if you can negotiate you can be successful with him.
I know, how about go to dinner where they serve family style, and keep the serving bowl between you two? Anyway, brainstorming. Gotta get back to work. Take care friend, A.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
but it would be worth noting and rewarding the effort and ignoring the delivery.
THIS! I have a problem with this. What is it? What is it I'm missing here? My immediate reaction to your statement was this:
I feel like that is treating him like a child. I feel like this is so basic, that for me to reward him would be almost belittling. I definitely feel like his post-dinner comment was belligerent, like it was a major put-out for him to be courteous. For me to respond, "Well done!" -- well, I'm not sure I could to that without feeling that I was being belligerent right back. Now, for example, if he purposely steered the restaurant selection away from the steakhouse to something that was more veggie-friendly, then THAT would definitely deserve being commended. It isn't basic courtesy, it's personal. It still conflicts with his pre-existing meat-eating personal preference, but it's truly consideration that I could be appreciative of.
Plus, I didn't hear anyone else thanking him/commending him for not eating food off of their plates, and I never have. He doesn't do it to anyone else, just to S and me. I don't think I have it in me to thank him for being as "kind" to me in that way as he is everyone else on the planet. That sounds very co-dependent from the little I've learned of it, which I was just reading up on - again.
Just thinking outloud... I think I spent the early years of our M exhibiting some measureable co-dependent behaviors, disguising it as trying to be a good W. If H is narcissistic (very possibly,) a co-dependent is his perfect mate. While I think I have some mild tendencies and therefore slipped into the role somewhat easily, it obviously didn't fit me well because I rebelled. I feel like H is still trying to put me back in that role, and I refuse to go. Your comment that I should somehow reward him for treating me with basic courtesy flared that rebellion again. I can easily thank him for things above and beyond, I can't thank him for treating me like a human being, of which he obviously knows how and can easily do with others. One of my boundaries is treating me with basic courtesy and respect.
You seem comfortable with it. Can you describe for me what you're thinking? Obviously I have my own issues clouding the benefit that you see clearly.
I can appreciate your reaction to "Passionate Marriage", to me it's like "Marriage 3.0" when I'm still trying to figure out "Marriage 1.0". I do recommend the book, because it challenges you and makes you think. The downside for me was that I saw potential I wanted to realize, but W didn't want to join me on that journey, so I also had to put it down, because it was making me increasingly frustrated with my sitch.
I'm reading "His Needs, Her Needs" now, which is interesting and good but somewhat dated. Here's the interesting thing about it:
"His Needs, Her Needs" says that you should absolutely expect your spouse to meet your emotional needs, and that you should NOT expect to drop your expectations to make things work.
It says that when you get married, you are granting your spouse EXCLUSIVE rights to meet some of your emotional needs (intimacy, sex, affection), so if they choose not to provide for those needs, they're putting you in a terrible situation because you can't get them met elsewhere while remaining true to your vows, yet they refuse to provide for them. (Reminded me about our discussions about "marriage entitlements" CV)
It also says that working on communication skills and problem solving never saves a marriage. The only thing that works is rekindling romantic love, and that is only done by making deposits in the spouse's "love bank". It says that when one spouse is withdrawn, there will be no reciprocation, and the spouse who wants improvement has to make all the deposits with no reward, but one day things WILL change if you keep at it.
Now that sounds to me like "pursuit", where you are seeking to meet their needs without having yours met.
I feel based on what I've read so far that DB is more appropriate for a WAS situation, but that "His Needs, Her Needs" philosophy may be more appropriate for piecing, where there is at least some mutual motivation to work on the marriage.
In any case, I found it interesting that so many people on this board espouse the importance of making yourself happy, not being codependent, and not relying upon your spouse to provide your happiness, whereas this book says you should absolutely expect your spouse to meet your needs and provide your happiness, and if they don't, then you're headed for divorce. I'm not sure those two concepts are opposed, I think they're actually complementary, but it doesn't let the spouse off the hook as easily some of the comments I've read here would imply.
In any case, good stuff, and sorry to hijack your thread for a book review CV!
Accuray
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
(FYI, H's comment was beligerent and inappropriate)
CV, I recommended leaving the table in the middle of the meal if he violates your boundary. I think my point at the time was that you'd only have to do that once. The one time you did it, it would be no fun, but you would definitely be communicating that this boundary is "for real", and you're going to enforce it.
I took a business strategy class once and they talked about Disney. Disney historically had a policy of litigating every lawsuit brought against them -- they settled nothing. Therefore, if you slipped at Disneyland and sued them for $1000, they would spent $10,000 to defend themselves instead of paying you the $1,000 settlement. Irrational and inappropriate? Yes! The strategy however was "signaling", they are sending a clear message that they will not be swindled with frivolous lawsuits -- don't even try. They'll kill a fly with an anvil, and they'll do it all day long. That informs the public about how to treat them, and what to expect. Sure, they far over-react to the lawsuits they get, but they probably prevent themselves from having to deal with thousands of cases that never get filed.
That's why sometimes I believe you have to have a disproportionate reaction to a boundary violation, and you have to be 100% consistent. If you're not, the boundary isn't credible, and if the consequences aren't meaningful, then the boundary isn't respected.
That's my $0.02 on the "food sharing" in restaurants. I might now set a boundary about "rude comments in polite company" -- if you speak to me that way, I will quietly leave the table and go home and we can discuss it later. That's my boundary.
FWIW, I believe he hurled that barb your way out of a sense of pain and frustration -- he doesn't understand why you have such an issue with that, because he doesn't have an issue with it. Making that comment was his attempt to be "right" instead of being happy, by making you look petty and unreasonable. If he felt loved and accepted, he wouldn't do things like that.
Accuray
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
I've read that book, A (probably 17 years ago, so I could see it being dated.) In fact, H and I met some very good friends when we went to a His Needs, Her Needs seminar. We did a follow-up group book study with them afterward. I thought it was a good book at the time, even purchased a copy for a friend that was getting M'd. Then we continued with his next book, Love Busters.
It does make things confusing, because it does seem contradictory in some ways. There's also the reality factor of "how it is" versus "how it should be." Human beings are naturally selfish, so whether it should be or not, M's tend to develop into a tit-for-tat situation. That's really what he's describing when he talks about the deposits and the love bank and being overdrawn.
One of them (possibly the second book) also says that you're not supposed to do recreational things without your spouse, because then you're making happy memories without them instead of with them. It stated that you already have a ton of unpleasant things that you have to do with your spouse (bills, cleaning, diapers, etc.,) so doing the pleasant things with them is needed to balance that out. So you should spend your recreational time developing things you like to do together. Otherwise, all your spouse gets from you is all the ugly. Also makes sense in a way; H had a huge problem with it. I can tell you in our case, developing our individual interests contributed significantly to our demise, among other things of course.
The one thing I did pull from Passionate Marriage that I really appreciated was that the author acknowledged that "love" and intimate relationships are unique to humans and fairly new in our evolution, and therefore, a bit of a cr@pshoot. Like the different styles of learning, there isn't a one-size-fits-all approach that works for everyone.
