Thank you for opening up Zig, I identify a lot with your conversations with your H. I did a lot of guessing what he wanted because he never made it clear. I'm looking forward to what others suggest
alright - right now i simply cannot find which post i got this from - i think it was in the MLC thread and i don't have time to go hunting for it.
so apologies to not acknowledging the author - someone on this board. maybe someone will recognize it and chime in.
i had copied and pasted it into a word document - so took it out from there to paste here. i printed it out, and i do read it everyday - it really helps to remind me that i am standing, when i get caught up in stuff with h.
i've actually found myself just saying them in my head as i'm coping with an emotional moment and it helps me to re-center once again. patience, pma, faith etc:)
also in that thread - later someone added COURAGE - and i agree - lots and lots of courage. enjoy zig
RECIPE FOR SUCCESS
 PATIENCE-You will need a large quantity of patience. If you lack patience, you will first need to acquire it before proceeding with the recipe.
PMA-A consistent Positive Mental Attitude is necessary in dealing with the insanity of your spouses MLC. Without this ingredient, the recipe will be a failure.
FAITH-You need a strong faith, and to believe this experience is about the lessons God wants you to learn. That in all crisis situations in life, is when we learn and grow the most. Put your trust in God. What ever happens will be Gods will.
PERSAVERENCE-You will need to find this special ingredient. There will be many times when you want to give up. Without this ingredient you might as well scrap the recipe, and ask for a divorce. Perseverance can be found deep within yourself, you just have to look for it. PRAYERS-You will need a daily dose of prayers. You can not survive this journey alone, you need to ask God for help. Ask God to give you the strength to not give up and to guide you on your journey.
LISTENING SKILLS-Good listening skills are necessary for your spouse to trust you and be open with you. Do not try and defend yourself, it will just make your spouse withdraw.
LEARNING SKILLS-This recipe would not be complete without good learning skills. You need to read and understand as much as you can about MLC, it will help you in dealing with your spouse, and be less angry towards them.
Knowledge will give you greater strength and make you feel more in control of your life.
EMPATHY-You will need this ingredient as you learn more about MLC, and have a better understanding of the pain and turmoil your spouse is feeling inside themselves.
COMMITMENT-Without a commitment to never, never, ever give up, you will bale out early on from all of the pain and agony. Remember, no pain, no gain.
FORGIVENESS-You will need to learn how to forgive your spouse, and to forgive yourself.
"Forgiveness Is A Gift You Give Yourself"
UNCONDITIONAL LOVE-You will have to discover the meaning of unconditional love, that no matter what you or your spouse has done to hurt each other, or misbehaved during your marriage, you will need to love each other and yourselves unconditionally.
LIFES LESSONS-You will need to learn life’s lessons. That throughout our lives, we grow Physically, Emotionally and Spiritually. That this MLC experience, is a great opportunity for both you and your spouse to grow, and learn all that you are supposed to learn at this stage of life.
LETTING GO-You will need to finally detach or "Let Go" of your spouse. Set them free. You have no control over weather they return or not. If they decide to return, it will because of how you have treated them and acted towards them through their MLC journey.
By letting go, you will be giving your spouse the space they need to work things out themselves.
TIME-Lots of time is needed for this recipe to work. If you don't give your spouse the proper amount of time they need, you will lose them. It is their journey, they are in control of how much time they need. Don't try and rush things. Its probably a good time to toss in another handful of PATIENCE, you can never add to much to this recipe.
SENSE OF HUMOR-After you have found and mixed together all the ingredients listed above, it is time to lighten up and enjoy life. A good sense of humor will get you through the most trying times. Trust me, it doesn't get anymore trying then dealing with a spouses MLC, not even the death of someone close to you.
The greatest chance for success with this recipe is to consistently add all of the ingredients. Do not forget any one ingredient, or put to little amount into the mix. You may need to tweak the recipe for your own taste. There is no one MAGIC ingredient that will cure MLC. It requires a well thought out plan and process. There are no shortcuts.
I am going to list ingredients that have been used in past recipes for dealing with MLC. It has been shown that these ingredients do not work and should not be used.
Do Not Use These Ingredients:
BEGGING, PLEADING, CRYING-Do not use these ingredients, they have done nothing more than push the spouse with MLC further away.
CONTROL/MANIPULATE-Use of these two ingredients will lead straight to disaster. Trying to control your spouse will make them run very fast and very far away.
THREATS- Threatening your spouse with divorce will do nothing more than aggravate the situation. It will not make your spouse desire to return home.
FIXING, CHANGING, CONVINCING YOUR SPOUSE -Forget trying to fix or change your spouse, that’s not your job. As far as trying to convince your spouse that what they are doing is wrong. Save your breath.
ANGER-Do not become angry towards your spouse. They will return to you greater anger. Give love and, ACT AS IF you are happy and life is good to you.
GUILT-Trying to make your spouse feel guilty about leaving you and the kids will not work.
Your spouse is very self centered at this time, they only think of what they want. They are tired of trying to take care of everyone else’s needs while neglecting their own.
ACCUSATIONS/BLAMING-Accusing your spouse or blaming them for all the problems in your relationship will do no good. They are already convinced their unhappiness in life is because their married to you. So don't go there.
DEFENDING-When your spouse tries to tell you what it is that they don't like about you, don't try and defend yourself. Just sit there and listen, give them full eye contact and validate what they are saying. You don't have to agree with them, but you need to validate that what they think and feel to them is the truth. Weather it is or not, it does not matter.
me 46 H 38 M10yrs T 11 S10 BD ow 8/11 h filed 9/25/12
"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"
i'm sorry i haven't come to post on your thread - i'm struggling here with putting enough time in on the board- by the time i try to catch up and read, it's so late at night and then i don't have the energy to post.
the antibiotics they put me on are so strong that i am knackered this week.
but i am quietly reading and keeping up as much as i can.
gal'ing this evening with a bunch of friends from s's school - last day of school so we are having an impromptu potluck and disco party at one of the houses.
should be fun. i have two rosemary/orange roast chickens in the oven - the house is starting to smell good, and i feel good, in spite of the things going on with h.
today one more step towards being the strong, independent woman i am meant to be (yes labug - your words ring in my ears all the time) and am well on the way to being -
and i love myself more everyday - because everyday i see that no matter how bad this sitch here seems to get, my heart is opening more and more and i am loving more and more, both myself and my family. i only see now how little i loved myself and how little i thought of myself all these years..
verab - i spent a couple of hours on Tuttles site last night - there's so much more to read - but it really helped - thank you.
later when i have more time , some more questions..
gentle, joyous smiles to all
zig
me 46 H 38 M10yrs T 11 S10 BD ow 8/11 h filed 9/25/12
"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"
Thank you Zig for posting this!!! Ok, yes, I will apply this to the best of my ability. At least I am having some physical contact with him and that satisfies me for the time being. I do miss talking to someone though I must say.
My mother also advised I go to the dinner with lightness, zero demands and very neutral, indifferent was the word she used.
So, brilliant timing. Thanks again for posting that!!
First, about being frustrated and being sure your H must see the "problem" and fix it. My dad was complaining about a burn pile on the yard and being upset that I didn't clean it up. His frustration was that I knew there was a problem and didn't do anything about it. Funny thing, that. I am not around the burn pile so never knew there was a problem.
Just because WE see a problem, doesn't mean others see it. Or... it doesn't mean that they see it AS a problem.
Second, you mention about trusting your H. What is interesting about this is it appears that many people put more weight on trusting their spouse than is warranted or than they would place on people other than their spouses.
People who have trust issues simply do not put trust in others. At least not to a great extent. Yet somehow, when they say their vows, they place unwarranted trust on their spouse. So the untrusting spouse places trust that would require their spouse to be and do exactly as the untrusting spouse would. Something that is impossible, even if the instructions were crystal clear and there was no mind reading required by the spouse who was being "trusted".
Trust is a condition of having expectations of the results.
We can trust everyone when we get rid of our expectations.
Said another way, certainly ask your spouse or friend to weed your garden. And then trust them to weed the garden. Just not to weed the garden exactly as you would. Rather, trust them to weed the garden exactly as THEY would. And also trust them to possibly NOT weed the garden, even if they said they would, for reasons that only make sense to them.
Trust... without expectations of results... so maybe change the word... to entrust... hand it over... and let it go... trust that what ever the results... were exactly as they were meant to be...
and talking about expectations segues into believing none of what he says...
but not really don't believe... rather, what he says are simply words that are coming out of his mouth... not actions... so as those words come out, you are attaching meaning to them and then setting yourself up to have expectations around them...
it could be that your H is depressed, so just because he says something, doesn't mean that he will do the actions that are suggested in his words... depression is like that...
then again...
this is someone whom you didn't trust... and he likely knows that... and further, he knows you took charge with family stuff... you controlled the family stuff...
so he might think of an idea and put it out there, but expect that you will take charge / control and do it... or if not, then he would do it and would be chastised for the WAY he did it... not up to your expectations... he doesn't trust that you actually will entrust him to something...
those possible reasons above don't matter...
what matters is getting rid of the expectations around what he says...
listening is like that...
let him talk... listen... and let it go...
if it had something to do with you with a request... then listening means confirming that a request was made... and then confirming the request... and then... acting on the request...
otherwise, they are just words... listen... be engaged in paying attention to him... and then let it go... he is probably not asking for feedback or suggestions... so don't offer unless he specifically asks...
First, about being frustrated and being sure your H must see the "problem" and fix it. Just because WE see a problem, doesn't mean others see it. Or... it doesn't mean that they see it AS a problem.
You're very right KD - my assumption that he sees it as a problem the way i do, is what always got us messed up, because then i had expectations. this is a good area for me to do a 180 in. i have to stop assuming that - and if there's really a problem, then discuss it calmly with him, or figure it out myself and let it go.
Second, you mention about trusting your H. What is interesting about this is it appears that many people put more weight on trusting their spouse than is warranted or than they would place on people other than their spouses.
People who have trust issues simply do not put trust in others. At least not to a great extent. Yet somehow, when they say their vows, they place unwarranted trust on their spouse. So the untrusting spouse places trust that would require their spouse to be and do exactly as the untrusting spouse would. Something that is impossible, even if the instructions were crystal clear and there was no mind reading required by the spouse who was being "trusted".
Trust is a condition of having expectations of the results.
i've never thought about it that way. you're right - and then, when our expectations are not met... well we know what happens then
We can trust everyone when we get rid of our expectations.
wow - when i read this, it's like a light bulb came on. thank-you
Said another way, certainly ask your spouse or friend to weed your garden. And then trust them to weed the garden. Just not to weed the garden exactly as you would. Rather, trust them to weed the garden exactly as THEY would. And also trust them to possibly NOT weed the garden, even if they said they would, for reasons that only make sense to them.
this is where i've been really lacking, KD. i always expected him to do it the way I thought it should be done - not even beginning to imagine that it could be done another way. this is the grand 180 i need to do. and i am so grateful to you for helping me to see this. i'm ready to see it now, i don't think i was all these months. and to further trust them to possibly not do it at all - that is really letting go and having no expectations
Trust... without expectations of results... so maybe change the word... to entrust... hand it over... and let it go... trust that what ever the results... were exactly as they were meant to be...
yes yes yes!!! this is the crux of the issue for me right now - and this is the attitude to learn to be, to adopt , to live
and talking about expectations segues into believing none of what he says...
but not really don't believe... rather, what he says are simply words that are coming out of his mouth... not actions... so as those words come out, you are attaching meaning to them and then setting yourself up to have expectations around them...
i have just been coming to that myself over the last few days. that i don't NEED to attach any meaning to anything he says any longer. mil said to me the other day - don't forget what h does - he thinks aloud - it doesn't meant anything except him thinking aloud. and for years, i have got caught up in his "thinking aloud" and always landed up in a mess of expectations and disappointments. NOW, finally i am beginning to see, that what he says doesn't MEAN anything - it's what he does.
it could be that your H is depressed, so just because he says something, doesn't mean that he will do the actions that are suggested in his words... depression is like that...
i always thought he was depressed, from early on - and i would ask him and try to talk about it with him - and his answer was always - "no, i'm not depressed, you are. you are the one whose all f'ed up with your history, i had an easy life, i'm not depressed.
now, i can see the depression - emanating from him. in his body language, the way he carries himself etc. he has to come to his own awareness and help himself through it. i'm here to support him, if he wishes, or asks for it, but not my job to point it out or get him to that awareness. his mom has tried to talk to him about it - he just gets extremely angry and walks away from her...
then again...
this is someone whom you didn't trust... and he likely knows that... and further, he knows you took charge with family stuff... you controlled the family stuff...
yes, i see now, how i did, and still have done until recently. it's not control as much as getting excited to just get on with it and then my crazy energy just takes it over. i've finally realized, that that is not how h functions - he wants to make the decision but it takes him so much time - and my impatience has always stood in the way - i've caused a lot of problems by being so impulsive and impatient, not realizing that my excited behavior completely OVERWHELMS him. it's only now that i am starting to see this really clearly.
so he might think of an idea and put it out there, but expect that you will take charge / control and do it... or if not, then he would do it and would be chastised for the WAY he did it... not up to your expectations... he doesn't trust that you actually will entrust him to something...
right on the mark again - is this universal - or only me?
those possible reasons above don't matter...
what matters is getting rid of the expectations around what he says...
listening is like that...
let him talk... listen... and let it go...
if it had something to do with you with a request... then listening means confirming that a request was made... and then confirming the request... and then... acting on the request...
otherwise, they are just words... listen... be engaged in paying attention to him... and then let it go... he is probably not asking for feedback or suggestions... so don't offer unless he specifically asks...
THIS is the part i haven't really got until now -. i've been expecting him to ask for feedback, assuming that even though we're separated, we can function together in some ways, for co-parenting. but i realize now that he is NOT asking. he isn't really remotely interested. he seems to be, but he is not. i think he just is testing to see my reaction and then i've been confirming for him time and again, that when he throws something out there and i have an instant response - there zig goes again, controlling the situation.
hope that all makes sense and might be helpful...
wow, KD - your post was gold - thank-you.
you have helped me identify some crucial 180's that i need to focus on here. timely is an understatement, and i so appreciate you taking the time to read my long rants and then pointing this all out for me in ways that i can really grasp.
as for how i am? thanks for asking. i think i'm doing pretty well. there is a change inside me, that i can feel things have shifted and that i am finally really truly beginning to detach. i'm also seeing that it's not an overnight thing and i watch myself struggle at times - but the struggle is different now - not sure i can articulate it clearly - more that i know what it's about and i can go through it, but it's extremely clear to me that there's light at the other end of it, and it's not a permanent thing.
i'm letting go of stuff piece by piece - just focusing on what brings up the heavy emotions, then seeing it for what it is and telling myself that it's okay, i can let this go.
i'm seeing the other possibilities much more now - not fully, but enough that it reassures me that i'm okay where i am.
i was just reading that thread about the VETERANS, and i KNOW that a few weeks ago or even days ago i would have shied away from the possibility of life being amazing after a possible divorce, but tonight, i was reading and thinking - yes i need to read this, it's okay to know this, i know this is true - and it didn't make me quake like crazy.
you know, if h did file for D, i now KNOW i'll be alright. i'd be very sad but i have the feeling that if it does happen one day, by the time it goes through, i'll be really good. hell, i am already pretty good, so that's a given
i loved LITB's post about the castle and the picnic - i'm really keeping that image in my mind. in fact i've said that to myself - you're on your own quiet private picnic that's very peaceful and beautiful..
thanks KD:)
zig
me 46 H 38 M10yrs T 11 S10 BD ow 8/11 h filed 9/25/12
"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"
played frisbee today with s and his friends and their parents. just swung by their house and s ran up to the door and asked if they wanted to join us - their parents came out too and we had a blast.
they invited us back in and the 3 of us hung out while the kids played. it was great fun. we landed up talking about h and my separation - and talked about staying still during this time. she told me about her friend who'd had an affair, then the spouse walked away and she got pissed and filed for D and he got married pretty soon after that. she said to me that it was wise to stand still. we talked a bit about it being mlc..
i wasn't really sure if i should have talked to them about it. i did say how i was using this time to take care of myself and improve myself, and how i saw my role in the relationship. and how i hoped that one day h would realize that it may be worth it to really give it a shot before ending it completely. so it was sort of a weird conversation, but none of us were uncomfortable in it
friday night s and i went for an impromptu potluck over to another of his friends houses. that was a really sweet evening and we had a lot of fun. his mom's friend was freaking (good) when we got there - she and i are becoming friends just lately - she had just got off the phone with her h who was in france buying a house for them - and she turned to me at one point and said - you and s can come with us. there is plenty of room, it's a 9 room schoolhouse!
i thought she was joking - but she was serious. i thought to myself, wow - this person that i really really like, she likes me enough to invite me there with them. and suddenly the whole world opened up for me in a different way. that i COULD go there if i chose. that there WERE other people that appreciated and wanted to be with me. and most of all - that i could determine my own life and where i went and what i chose to do.
the lesson i got from it though was slightly different. as i daydreamed about it, i realized that i didn't need to go all the way to france - that i could create my own france right here, right now - that it was how i felt and what i did, exactly where i am that i could change - not changing the place and the people. and that "the idea of france" would come to me when i was ready for it.
so bloom where i'm planted. a friend said that to me years ago - and i never got it. it's taken this incredibly painful, incredibly amazing situation to show me what that really means, and what i have to do to effect that.
zig
me 46 H 38 M10yrs T 11 S10 BD ow 8/11 h filed 9/25/12
"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"
and suddenly the whole world opened up for me in a different way. that i COULD go there if i chose. that there WERE other people that appreciated and wanted to be with me. and most of all - that i could determine my own life and where i went and what i chose to do.
the lesson i got from it though was slightly different. as i daydreamed about it, i realized that i didn't need to go all the way to france - that i could create my own france right here, right now - that it was how i felt and what i did, exactly where i am that i could change - not changing the place and the people. and that "the idea of france" would come to me when i was ready for it.
so bloom where i'm planted. a friend said that to me years ago - and i never got it. it's taken this incredibly painful, incredibly amazing situation to show me what that really means, and what i have to do to effect that.
zig
^^this is lovely and worth reading and re-reading. though i would take them up on at least a VISIT to france
