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me 46 H 38
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h filed 9/25/12


"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"

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i'd like to start a discussion here and hope that lots of people will join in and give their opinions, especially the vets.

There is a lot of discussion and observations about how the MLC spouse is manipulative and controlling.

On the other hand there is a lot of encouragement to watch for the baby steps and use those to monitor the progress of one's sitch.

so my question is:

How does one distinguish between it just being the control or manipulation and an actual baby step?

thanks
zig


me 46 H 38
M10yrs T 11
S10
BD ow 8/11
h filed 9/25/12


"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"

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The difference is your focus. The baby steps you're watching for are the result of something you're doing that's working. If what you're doing isn't working, do something different. Your focus is on you and what you're doing, and not on the progress of your sitch.


Adinva 51, S20, S18
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6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out
9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50
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Originally Posted By: zig
interesting how when it's time to do that, it seems to coincide with some new phase or step

This is quite true.
Sometimes it triggers a change within us.
But something that has been going on here for a long time.


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thanks adinva -

The baby steps you're watching for are the result of something you're doing that's working.

i guess the eternal newbie question is - how do you tell if it's working?

in my sitch - i see h trying to cling to the picture of "helpless LBS" that he seems to keep trying to retain in his mind. whenever he gets a strong whiff of the opposite - i see him trying to "take over" - stopping by without calling, wanting to do things around the house - coming really close, pulling back really hard -

i see that all as part of the whole picture - and don't read all that much into it, as it is more transparent to me than he realizes.

but at the same time, i am wondering if i am doing the right thing - should i allow him to come closer? and i know that sounds like an odd question during our sitches - but i'm not able to tell the difference between what is manipulation, and what is a baby step .

i have asked this question many times over the last few months and haven't got an answer - maybe i'm asking the wrong question, but i don't know how to word it any differently.

i see h keeping himself in the "victim role" by holding on to the idea that "poor him, even though he wants his freedom, he is stuck taking care of me - you know, mowing the lawn - how could zig possibly do that, health insurance - how can she survive without it..etc"

i have made huge strides in showing him that i can manage all this on my own - i haven't asked for any help - and found to my own joy that i am quite capable of taking care of things here at the house.

on the other hand - it's definitely his way of showing he cares(?????) by taking care of the people he loves and feels responsible for.

am i pushing him away by not letting him come over and do things? am i being too independent? or by letting him come and do stuff, am i leaving the door open?

i feel like i already know what your answer is going to be - which is what you already responded with. but i need more , please.

i feel at a loss how to handle this .

i can't tell if i'm focusing on the wrong thing - the detail of what to allow or not to allow? what are my boundaries.

he's got his own house to take care of now, he's adamant that we are better off apart, but he still wants to come over and help?

i know, i know, they don't make any sense when they are in MLC, but what's the best thing for me to do here - let him come over and do what he feels like doing, or draw the line and say - no - if you are leaving, i'll take care of myself completely

thanks for any advice that you have

zig


me 46 H 38
M10yrs T 11
S10
BD ow 8/11
h filed 9/25/12


"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"

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Originally Posted By: zig
so my question is:

How does one distinguish between it just being the control or manipulation and an actual baby step?


It is best answered by the general response that MLC is something that a MLCer MUST go THROUGH.

IF one's spouse is MLC, while there are the high energy (ie. really "out there" with some of the stuff they do or say) and low functioning (ie. they are unable to function "normally" in any setting, therefore EVERYONE sees something's not quite right)...

not all MLCers are that way. Often, they MLC is more subtle. The MLCer more high functioning (ie. only behaves in crazy making ways in front of the LBS, but otherwise works and socializes as though nothing is wrong)

Imagine two people are going sky diving...

Person number one knows they have a parachute...

Person number two does not know they have a parachute...

As the plane reaches 10,000 feet and the door opens and the instructor starts pushing people out the door...

Well... which one do you think is going to panic?

We all go through transitions in our lives... the difference for many people is that... unlike parachutist # 2 above, they do not panic... with MLC... there is quite often a trigger that we may not even notice, that causes the person to go into crises... let me say that in a more responsible way... the person chooses to panic at that time, rather than allowing themselves to go into the deeper, introspective work that a transition requires...

Parachutist # 1 has different moments of emotion through the entire experience and lands at the bottom, possibly elated, and possibly with just a calm, serene aura about them... (life transition)

Parachutist # 2... well, their arms are flailing all the way down (even though their chute is open) and they are screaming and crying... and end up on the ground in a bubbling pile of emotions... or even passed out... (mid life crises)

I would submit that more often than not, the MLCer sees their spouse as the instructor who pushed them out of the plane... there might be other "causes of blame"... but the LBS may get the brunt of it and appears to be a consistent source of blame in any MLC I've seen.

Now lets say that in parachutist # 2... as they are about 2/3 to 3/4 of the way down... their arms stop flailing... they stop screaming... the just dangle from the chute... and their eyes are open so you are pretty sure they are alive... and not passed out...

In MLC, that might just be a sign that they are working their way through the MLC... these are the "baby steps" the LBS would be looking for...

Control and manipulation... spew and blame... it's often par for the course of MLC... if things seem "better" or "normal"... just wait a moment... the spew and blame will show up again and any random moment due to something you may or may not have said or done...

That's a good part of it in a nutshell... but it's not that simple...

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journaling:

so much has taken place over the last week and a half - i don't even know where to start.

the school trip to Boulder was a blast - i had so much fun with all my friends - and laughed a lot and was really relaxed. several new 180's that were big for me - going on a long car trip without getting anxious and stressed ,driving on the highway for 3 hours straight without a hitch, driving alone on my own in an unknown town, keeping myself grounded and happy in spite of being around h, keeping my boundaries.

i made everyone laugh so much, that it surprised me - i'm discovering that i have a great sense of humor, that warms people toward me and it feels really good. i connected with a couple of other parents in a really deep meaningful way - who came to me at the end of the trip and said they were in awe of what i am becoming.

a ton of stuff happened between h and myself - the interactions were very different - and very unexpected!

when we got back, i was pleased - it seemed as if the ice had definitely broken between us - or from him. actually all i felt was relief - relief that we could be around each other with no tension whatsoever, and that we may have taken a baby step towards just being relaxed around each other.

i really did not see it as anything huge - just that okay, h allowed us to just BE, without all the drama etc.

but after that - he has pulled back really hard - when we are around his family (mother's day and his mom's birthday), but in between, he's stopped by the house twice - acting really friendly and wanting to do stuff here, but both times without calling.

i let the first time pass, but yesterday when he did it again, i just quietly said no - he wanted to clean up a fallen tree in the back yard that has been there since last summer. he was shocked when i said no and replied but i have the chain saw now and i just said quietly that it wasn't; such a great time for me.

yesterday - i went to IC and described what i thought were several baby steps that h has demonstrated - and C shot down most of them - seeing them as manipulation, and then saying that some of them were definitely signs of hope in this situation.
she ended up by telling me that i seem to give my power over to men completely, and that even though parts of me are really strong and amazing i have this helpless side that seems to emerge with h.

i came out of there utterly confused and really unable to see clearly in what way i do that.

she thought that a lot of what h did on the trip, was an attempt to "show the world" that he and i were good and that this was mutual, and that i had played the role in helping him to give that image.

i started to feel really angry at h, and even angrier at myself for letting that happen and not seeing it for what it is. my own conscious motives were to go with the flow, show h and s that we could have fun together and be relaxed.

oddly enough, even though h and i were making the effort, s wouldn't have much to do with it - he downright shunned our efforts to co-parent together(this was done by h, which really surprised me)

so now, i will continue with my own efforts to get my work going and keep moving forward.

it really helped to read last night on the mlc boards and i know that this is just all part of the process i have to go through as i expand and grow.

part of what i've been really struggling with over the last couple of weeks is whether i want to give this up and walk away - it has been a torturing thing to go through. it's the easy way out - because i see what it really means - to give up and walk away is to stop my inner growth and to really discover and be the person i am meant to be. to avoid the pain which is essential for my growth.

now i have to ground myself again and have faith that this was given to me for more than the mere reason for the chance to better our relationship - it has been given to me so that i can really see myself for who i am, discover what i need to change and have the courage to make those changes.

my sweet friend said a couple of things to me the other day - now is the time to just let him be for a while and just focus on falling in love with yourself:) she is so right - the more i love myself, the more i'll be able to answer those questions that i keep asking here.

i am falling in love with myself - i look in the mirror and feel utterly delighted with what i see = is that clear-eyed relaxed looking beautiful woman really me?

Sweet!!


me 46 H 38
M10yrs T 11
S10
BD ow 8/11
h filed 9/25/12


"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"

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doh, I didn't really finish this:

Originally Posted By: Kaffe Diem
not all MLCers are that way. Often, the MLC is more subtle. The MLCer more high functioning (ie. only behaves in crazy making ways in front of the LBS, but otherwise works and socializes as though nothing is wrong)


the LBS and others might think the LBS is the one that's gone off the deep end... (not planned by the MLCer; just an artefact in some cases)

And in other cases the MLCer might be more high energy, so gets a full body tattoo, or a nice red, convertible sport car, or starts going on lots of expensive trips by themselves or quit their job to go do mission work in Hawaii...

So to repeat... there's nothing that the LBS DOES that makes a "noticeable" difference in the MLCer... DURING the main, prominent time of the MLC... the work the LBS does will reap rewards (hopefully) and be noticeable in the MLCer as the MLC starts to wind down...

Read up on the stages of MLC if you want to understand what signs you might be looking for in regards to "baby steps"... but understand that what ever work you do now, regardless of whether the M survives, will have a positive impact on yourself, your family, and yes... even your H... whether MLC or not...

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thanks KD - I LOVE your parachute analogy

i have to say, i can see the panic - it seems to be more towards the surface after he bought the house and after he yelled divorce for the first time.

he seems so fragile right now

i notice him watching me every time i'm not looking at him - he's so hyper aware of me, that it's unnerving. it's almost as if he's screaming help while he pushes me away as hard as he can

meanwhile, i feel myself pulling away and letting go a bit and seeing things in the moment more clearly than i did before - in other words not getting quite so caught up in the drama as i used to be.

i'm beginning to know more what i want and what i don't want in a relationship. the picture is still a bit hazy, but the feeling of it is getting more defined.

there is quite often a trigger that we may not even notice, that causes the person to go into crises... let me say that in a more responsible way... the person chooses to panic at that time, rather than allowing themselves to go into the deeper, introspective work that a transition requires.

thanks for this - it helps me to take one more crucial step away form the sitch, and know a little more clearly that every little thing i do or say isn't all important (which i am beginning to realize is what keeps me in the panic state)

That's a good part of it in a nutshell... but it's not that simple...

there you go again -giving out tidbits, but not the whole story (grin)

so KD what's the "not simple" part - want to give it a shot:)

thanks for all you do for us here
zig


me 46 H 38
M10yrs T 11
S10
BD ow 8/11
h filed 9/25/12


"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"

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Originally Posted By: Kaffe Diem
doh, I didn't really finish this:

Originally Posted By: Kaffe Diem
not all MLCers are that way. Often, the MLC is more subtle. The MLCer more high functioning (ie. only behaves in crazy making ways in front of the LBS, but otherwise works and socializes as though nothing is wrong)


the LBS and others might think the LBS is the one that's gone off the deep end... (not planned by the MLCer; just an artefact in some cases)

i'm pretty sure that in h's case, it's the opposite - people seem to be seeing through his persona more and more. and even now after all these months, i have people whom we don't know as more than acquaintances asking me what is up with him and his mustache. the mustache is the equivalent of the tattoo here - it is off the wall! on the other hand, even while i'm standing there crying to a friend, all they are saying to me is that they've never seen anyone become who i've become during this kind of crisis, just telling me how in awe they are of what i am capable of, how present i am and how amazingly i am doing

And in other cases the MLCer might be more high energy, so gets a full body tattoo, or a nice red, convertible sport car, or starts going on lots of expensive trips by themselves or quit their job to go do mission work in Hawaii...

So to repeat... there's nothing that the LBS DOES that makes a "noticeable" difference in the MLCer... DURING the main, prominent time of the MLC... the work the LBS does will reap rewards (hopefully) and be noticeable in the MLCer as the MLC starts to wind down...

Read up on the stages of MLC if you want to understand what signs you might be looking for in regards to "baby steps"... but understand that what ever work you do now, regardless of whether the M survives, will have a positive impact on yourself, your family, and yes... even your H... whether MLC or not...

i really really understand this now - after all these months, KD - am really getting a grip on the whole concept of what my real, integral role is here

it's time for me to go reread the stages of MLC- and for me to apply the recipe - in a more wholehearted way.


thanksKD - i love talking with you - you are so grounded where you are, and i know that right now i'm still needing to suck that from external sources, until i am more grounded within myself

zig


me 46 H 38
M10yrs T 11
S10
BD ow 8/11
h filed 9/25/12


"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"

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