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#2244467 - 05/11/12 07:21 AM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: gabbysmom23]
sandi2 Offline

Registered: 06/27/07
Posts: 10870
Sorry GM, I wasn't intentionally picking out your post by saying what I did. I thought I remembered posters in general telling him about ultimatums. However, yes I agree completely that he should not tell her he's thinking about going dark if she isn't interested in a more than being friends.

Crimson, to be clear here, I don't think you should tell her anything about what you intend to do. I mean, isn't that what you've been doing these past months? And if she is playing you by dangling your dream of getting back together in front of you, then you need to make precise decisions for your future that does not include her. Have your plan in place, so if she is not willing to work toward R the M, then you drop her immediately and go dark.

A WAW has to think she has lost you. Really lost you! This will be the only chance for her to see that she's thrown you away. Your W hasn't seen it throughout this separation. She hasn't seen what D from you would look like.

Let me say it again. You need to be very plain spoken so there will be no doubt as to what you are saying when you ask her what kind of R is she open to working on. If she tells you (without hinting around about it), then the next question would be how does she see her part in the work, then ask how she sees your part. No threats or ultimatums and no hasty agreements from you. Neither should you accept her beating around the bush. It's time she spoke up and spoke clearly. If she says she doesn't know what she wants, or doesn't know how she'll feel once the D is final, do not reply.

I think she has no doubts in your ability as a father. And, if she just talks about how she wants the two of you to work together co-parenting, or to be "friend-ly" parents, then ask her if that is what she was referring to when she said she would be open to working on a R. Get all your questions out there so you'll stop these endless guessing games of wondering what she means.

Remember, ask her questions. Do not try to convey anything you're willing to do, or not do. You end the conversation with her wondering about what you're thinking.

You know how 25yrs is always saying to keep the road home paved smoothly? Well, I agree with that up to a point (b/c each stitch is somewhat different), but I also believe the WAW needs the message to hit hard that she could no longer have you in her life. You could actually find somebody else to take her place! She may even be shocked to discover that being just friends with her is not good enough for you! You want a woman who loves you and wants to be a wife to you. Then if her interest is sparked, she needs to work to get you back. If it's too easy too quickly, her romantic interest stands a chance of bombing out (but we can talk about that later).
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!

#2244488 - 05/11/12 10:03 AM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: sandi2]
jks Offline

Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 623
Loc: USA
Great advice, Sandi!!
Me: 32 H: 32
M 9 yrs
#1 D7 #2 S5 #3 D2
Bomb 8/12/11
H moved out 8/14/11
PA started w/H & OW in 1/12 - found out 3/24/12
Got my own place 8/25/12
H & OW move in together 9/15/12
Still married.

#2244520 - 05/11/12 12:18 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: jks]
Crimson Offline

Registered: 11/16/11
Posts: 1285
Well Sandi, and others - the path is becoming more clear. Allow me to share the last 15 hours of my life.....

So last night I texted W to see if she was around. I asked her to call after she put S down for the night if she could. She texts "what's up?". I just respond that I just wanted to talk - nothing threatining, no arguments. Again, she texts "what's up?". I replied just trying to get a better understanding of things. She replied that she was exhausted - I said that I could relate and that when she had time to talk I would be available. I told her that there were some things that I would appreciate her unput on that would help me figure some things out (bad word choice?) and told her specifically that it was not about the legal stuff at all.

After that, she never replied and did not call.

This morning, she called me as I was pulling out of our edition. I didn't feel that her being at work and me being on the road would be the best time to discuss - but clearly she wanted to know what was going on in my mind - so I decided to go for it.

I asked her, essentially, what she felt/thought working on our relationship looked like to her. Told her that knowing that would be helpful to me. She never answered.

She immediately started to question why I was even asking. I can't dictate the whole conversation, but the gist of it was this -

She feels that I am applying some kind of pressure to her because of the settlement hearing on Monday - that the timing of me asking these questions is "suspect" - and then she said if she rewinds to the last time we had pending legal proceedings I wrote her that letter. So it is obvious she thinks that everything I am doing is some kind of ploy. I told her that it wasn't and that me reaching out to her had nothing to do with Monday....that Monday was going to happen either way. I said I hoped that she would trust me when I say that is not what I was doing. She reponded "I've told you before that I have very little trust in you - if I did we wouldn't be here".

She told me that she is not the one I should come to for advice or guidance in this situation. That I need to do what I think is right for me....that she never lead me on to think that there was some kind of "reunion" coming. Keep in mind, she was rather "passionate" with her delivery here, but I kept calm. I kept trying to re-ask the question - "what does working on R look like to you" - she still didn't give an answer.

I told her, calmly, that I had enjoyed hanging out with her, S - and doing things together. That even if it comes to D, I would want to continue doing that - continue working on the R.

In a nutshell, I think she was trying to tell me that

1.) She doesn't know what it would look like
2.) She thinks I am trying to run some kind of ploy in terms of negotiation of Monday (I told her Monday is going to be what it is)
3.) She still does not trust me

She said that it would be best that we have no contact until after the legal "stuff" is over. I will respect that. Don't know how much of that she meant and how much was said in the frustration she was feeling in the moment. Either way, I will respect it.

I came with the best of intentions, honestly. But she seemed to think otherwise. Sometimes I feel as though I just can't win. If I stay quiet I get anxious....if I speak up, then it's some kind of tactic or ploy. There is nothing you can do when the other person has no trust in you - despite the fact that I think I have done a lot to regain some of it.

She said again that she is still just trying to live things one day at a time, and struggling to do that. She felt that I was pressuring her.

I get it. It's time for me drop the rope and move on. It's just hard to do because I will miss her a lot - even though our interactions are limited.

Side note: I said in the conversation that I was trying to get a sense of what was best to do for my and S's life. She said rather firmly, "What do you mean by THAT?" - I explained, but still doubt if it registered.

Feeling rather defeated, but at least I have a better picture of what I need to do. Don't kow why I feel that pulling away will only make things worse (i.e. - "you were just making changes to call of divorce") - but I am thinking that is where I need to go right now.



#2244523 - 05/11/12 12:25 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Crimson]
scaredsilly Offline

Registered: 01/12/12
Posts: 1219
she will think what she wants and what justifies her actions. you know your truth.
S:41, SS:28, SS:25, SD:23

Bomb:12/17/11, "I think we should go our separate ways."
H moves to his mother's house, 4/1/12
12/21/12: H moves back home, piecing

#2244530 - 05/11/12 12:43 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: scaredsilly]
vera be fierce Offline

Registered: 04/23/12
Posts: 934
Crimson, that must have been hard to do that conversation from your car! Since she said she is feeling pressured and wants no contact until the legal part is done, it unfortunately sounds like that is what it may be coming to for you. At least she is telling you what she needs, for now. Can you see how she might think that reaching out at this point, so close to Monday, would make her suspicious? As SS noted, she will think what she wants and you will not be able to use your words to convince her of anything at this point. Take care of yourself this weekend.

#2244556 - 05/11/12 02:27 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: vera be fierce]
Crimson Offline

Registered: 11/16/11
Posts: 1285
Yeah - it blows, but I have no choice but to accept it. I still don't fully undestand what she is thinking long term - if anything. Seems like going day to day is about the best she can do.

I feel like all of the progress that we have made has been lost - like it never happened. What I was feared happening happened. I asked her about something, peacefully - and she iterpreted it as me pressuring her and was put off. I didn't pressure....I just asked questions.

When I told her some of my feelings - "letting things go will be hard for me", etc. - she responded "Listen to you, it's all me, me, me with you". I said that I can only speak about me and my feelings - not hers. I told her that me trying to tell her her feelings is part of what got us here in the first place. By the way, she does this ^^^^ a lot when I talk about my feelings.

Oh well - I tried, and I tried with the best of intentions. I can't control her, how she reacts to what I say, how she interprets what I say and what she does with it. I can control me - and that is about it.


#2244566 - 05/11/12 03:09 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Crimson]
2thepoint Offline

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1692
Crimson - I'm sorry the conversation didn't go well. It would have probably been better to have had that conversation in person instead of over the phone, but that is water under the bridge now, I suppose.

I get it. It's time for me drop the rope and move on. It's just hard to do because I will miss her a lot - even though our interactions are limited.

I'd say that yes it is time for you to drop the rope. Do you know how to do that? Go back and reread Sandi's post to you on the topic if you have doubts.

Good luck, Crimson. I'm really sorry things have turned out the way they have. You'll survive though. Do you believe that?
Me48 W50 S15 S11
M20 T23
Bomb-9/11; A-11/11; I move out 11/11

It's easy to find our bottom, it is our top that requires cultivation.

Every rough spot adds to our emotional constitution. -Barney Fife

#2244569 - 05/11/12 03:22 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: 2thepoint]
~ kd ~ Offline

Registered: 03/20/11
Posts: 4866
Loc: Canoe'k-land
One of the problems with initiating any conversation with the WAS is that the LBS has expectations.

Crimson, a lot of any of the decisions that you have made appear to have continued to be in an effort to save your M. A lot of conversations you have with her appear as though you feel you can change her mind with words, or some physical gestures which suggest that you are interested in or committed to her.

What we find is, until the WAS is wanting to R... they ARE NOT... and until they tell the WAS that they ARE... there is nothing the LBS can do... IF your W is willing and ready to R, then she will let you know in a way that you will know... generally with words that are similar to "I would like to work on our R and this is how I would like to do it".

The LBS words can be misinterpreted by and twisted by the WAS... this is witnessed time and time again...

ACTIONS will be very clear to the WAS. No words are necessary. Unless they ask about the actions.

#2244574 - 05/11/12 03:55 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: ~ kd ~]
Crimson Offline

Registered: 11/16/11
Posts: 1285
I agree with you, KD. And I was trying to show through my actions (being flexible with time with s, trying to be more thoughtful, etc.) because I believed actions spoke louder than words. I honestly was trying to signal signs of change.

Clearly, she is not really in a place where she can say she wants to work on things. I get that now, and I get that it is time for me to go away. If it is not about the baby and not urgent, I won't communicate.

#2244575 - 05/11/12 04:06 PM Re: Learning, Unlearning, Doing it Differently #2 [Re: Crimson]
Crimson Offline

Registered: 11/16/11
Posts: 1285

I will struggle with going dark. I will really miss her and feel as if I a setting things back. But I am really beginning to believe that being this available, this flexible has worked less in my favor than I would have hoped. I think it may have done some incremental good - we never fought, argued, and so on - and that's not bad. But at BEST she is confused, at WORST she is done.

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