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#2241388 - 04/28/12 01:57 PM Re: The Climb - Thread #6 [Re: Starsky309]
greenblue90 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/09/11
Posts: 685
Yes it is purposely soft because it's meant to keep the situation from escalating. What is more important is for Navy to show to her that she can't use the threat of divorce as a means to get things her way, by the way he acts.

His w seems like the type that would do some pretty Evil things in order to win a game of emotional chicken. She fights dirty, being too rough will just be encouragement to be even more dirty.

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#2241390 - 04/28/12 01:59 PM Re: The Climb - Thread #6 [Re: greenblue90]
greenblue90 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/09/11
Posts: 685
Just to clarify he has to be tougher with her, I don't think me and Starsky disagree on that.

I just think there's a very important distinction between tough and rough.

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#2241428 - 04/28/12 04:29 PM Re: The Climb - Thread #6 [Re: greenblue90]
Starsky309 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/11/10
Posts: 5222
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: greenblue90
Just to clarify he has to be tougher with her, I don't think me and Starsky disagree on that.

I just think there's a very important distinction between tough and rough.


I'm failing to see it, and that wasn't even the point I was trying to make. I'm trying to get him to not project NEEDINESS, and to do the ol' emotional jui-jitsu on her and take away her ability to use the threat of divorce as leverage on him all the time. "I agree with you, this isn't working for me either" is almost always a great play. It validates HER feelings, while letting her know he's not willing to just sit there and be "Plan B" anymore.


Starsky
_________________________
M54 W 54; D27 D25 S21 S18 GD4 GD 2m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07
Filed 4 D 7/07
Piecing 07-10
At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)

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#2241440 - 04/28/12 05:35 PM Re: The Climb - Thread #6 [Re: Starsky309]
dbmod Offline
Member

Registered: 08/05/08
Posts: 2155
Originally Posted By: Starsky309
Originally Posted By: greenblue90


Which reminds me of one more thing if she is using the divorce card to win fights, you seriously need to call her bluff.

If she does it again immediately walk away. Refuse to talk to her until she comes down, and pretty much stay away until she either reaches out to you or demands to know why you are shunning her.

Then tell her this:

"you threatening me with a divorce is the worst thing you could do to me, it is quite gut wrenching emotionally, if this keeps going on things will not work out for us, and we'll never find peace. So I need some space to think"


GB, I've agreed with just about everything else you've advised to Navy, but have to agree with this part ^^^. I think the way you've phrased this conveys emotional WEAKNESS, and would only PERPETUATE his wife knowing that she can use the threat of divorce as a weapon against Navy. I think he'd be far better off saying something like:

"Look, this is now something like the tenth time you've threatened divorce, and you know what? Knock yourself out, because I've done a lot of thinking and I've decided that this isn't working for me either. If you're going to do it, then DO it, or I will, but this is the last time I'm going to simply TALK about it."

And then walk away.


Starsky



you guys are on the right track.


My input:

Quote:
Look, this is now something like the tenth time you've threatened divorce, and you know what? Knock yourself out, because I've done a lot of thinking and I've decided that this isn't working for me either.


Then DO the second half of what Starsky said without the words.

This is 'shock and awe'. This is doing something different. This is AFTER THE LAST RESORT technique. This is something for which you have to be prepared for the consequences.


If you want to save your marriage....


You go dark here, dark enough not to initiate a damn thing. And you center. You figure out WHAT IT IS that you must change....because something MUST STILL CHANGE if you want to save your marriage. It isn't just her.

And then you do that (you judge your results by her actions).

And then, if she's responding.....you take her back very very slowly, so you get the changes YOU want. So your relationship grows.
_________________________
dbmod

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#2241491 - 04/29/12 12:32 AM Re: The Climb - Thread #6 [Re: dbmod]
25yearsmlc Offline
Member

Registered: 04/03/06
Posts: 10861
Loc: west coast
Fair enough Dbmod but I think Starsky's point is that

in this situation, with the history behind it, there is a difference....Navy has gone 3 YEARS with barely a kind word or touch...

HE HAS given and changed A LOT...and she has worsened!

All this change for him, for "crimes" he committed years ago that are soooo minor that it never warranted this type of reaction from his wife. (We're talking "he neglected her and didn't help around the house enough and paid too much attention to his computer..." So in sum, he was on the selfish side. NO gambling or subtsance abuse or OW or temper stuff...in the grand scheme of things,

his offenses were in the "normal" range AND that's probably why his changes were not impossible to make. Fundamentally he's a fine man.

She has some bad childhood issues

(Navy I don't know if you realize this but her childhood crap isn't that unusual. MY dad was abusive and violent and we had a wacky childhood...I went to therapy and a workshop and I got better. I CONFESS to being sensitive to some feminist stuff b/c my brothers were better treated, e.g., they had no curfews whereas my sisters and I did...but none of that affected my MARRIAGE...good grief)

IMO, Navy's wife is a female abuser. She rejects him physically about 360 days a year if my understanding is accurate, she reams him a new one for nothing, she compares him to every other lousy male example, She is a depressed morose woman to be around, and she STILL blames him for HER misery...

HE does all the work in the marriage and in the home...she does none in either.

So the only way I can see for HIM to change NOW

is to make it super clear to her that HIS days with HER are numbered...

UNLESS something in the way SHE treats HIM, changes.

NAVY---What do YOU think it'll take for HER to get that message?

AND, once she does get the message that you are out of there without some real effort on her part

is it your fear that she'll simply not care to do a darn thing?

IF so, so what? The real question is

What's different about that, than what is going on now?


--I'll tell you what could be different-- SHE would not be holding all the cards and YOU would NOT be stuck in a hellish limbo forever...teaching your kids that m stinks...and

you decide to get off this crazy loop & take the exit ramp to a new life-

OR she changes.


This is not easy, but you know what? It's really not all that complicated now.

Don't forget who you are and that you deserve much better.

Someday, you'll receive much better, and it'll be so wonderful to give yourself fully to someone who happily receives it, and happily reciprocates.

Take the exit ramp Navy...you never know, maybe SHE'LL follow...but if not, you'll be a new place that's better than where you are now.

(((( ))))
_________________________
m:51 H:55
M: 30 yrs
S25,D23,D15
H goes ALASKAN, solo,2005
I file Sep 2/06
Piecing 7/07
Retrovaille Weekend 8/08
M Restored 8/08

Be Happy OR be "Right"

FORGIVENESS: Your way out of hell

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#2241521 - 04/29/12 04:57 AM Re: The Climb - Thread #6 [Re: 25yearsmlc]
greenblue90 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/09/11
Posts: 685
Me and my W have a lot to work on, but the D card is for all intents and purposes put away.

We still occassionally fight, and we're having a hell of a time in our sex life. Yet we are miles ahead than where we were at this time last year.

To get there it took some pretty serious fights and arguments. Those were some pretty terrible nights in which W threatened to walk and I opened the door.

Or in which I would stand up for myself and end up escalating the situation. Trust me Navy it's worth it.

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#2241533 - 04/29/12 10:39 AM Re: The Climb - Thread #6 [Re: Starsky309]
25yearsmlc Offline
Member

Registered: 04/03/06
Posts: 10861
Loc: west coast
Originally Posted By: Starsky309
Originally Posted By: greenblue90
Just to clarify he has to be tougher with her, I don't think me and Starsky disagree on that.

I just think there's a very important distinction between tough and rough.


I'm failing to see it, and that wasn't even the point I was trying to make. I'm trying to get him to not project NEEDINESS, and to do the ol' emotional jui-jitsu on her and take away her ability to use the threat of divorce as leverage on him all the time. "I agree with you, this isn't working for me either" is almost always a great play. It validates HER feelings, while letting her know he's not willing to just sit there and be "Plan B" anymore.


Starsky


I fully agree with Starsky;s post here^^^. GB, hey, this might just be semantics you are insisting upon- but the distinction between "rough and tough" is quite lost on me in this context. ALSO

I don't know if what You and your w have, is what Navy wants in his m b/c, for one thing He and she have kids, so some of your life style would be more difficult logistically, AND perhaps morally ** as a parent, not judging you as fellow adults--(but I do maintain you play w/fire, and will get burned more than you already have), but that aspect of OPs in the marriage of yours is not a topic for this place and if I recall right, you are NOT open to changing that anyhow...)

Back to this situation--GB, You know there are those other dynamics to your m that would not fit theirs or what he's said HE wants...

so, we all have to be mindful of over projecting our lives/visions into others'...and don't think I haven't done it too...I have too.

I guess what there IS agreement on, is that Navy must be stronger with her and in that regard,


I specifically mean for you Navy, to show her that you will be fine with or without her. Plan on nights out, then go on them...without inviting her...

DB says you can offer/invite with no expectations - but at this point I would not mention her coming UNLESS she asked, and then seem perplexed...


Let's get real...
You've wanted to show her your changes, and your deep abiding love for her, the past 3 years. I get that. I think you've done that. I commend you for it.

Sure, You can remind her of it if you feel it still bears repeating-but make sure you remind her of your efforts and that you HAVE PROVED it (and any open hearted woman or reasonable person would know this by now).

But to me, the main thing she has to realize, which she does NOT yet know,

is that you are a fine, lovable/loving man who deserves better treatment--

AND that you WILL GET BETTER TREATMENT

whether from her or someone else, b/c Navy, there are women out there who want to love and be loved.

I'm so sorry to say this but,

Evidently, Your w is NOT one of them, (when it comes to YOU), at least for now...and what's worse, is that she shows no signs of wanting to love or be loved by you.



Maybe you won't find someone OR recon with her...That's fine too, b/c the

one thing for sure that is worse than being alone....is wishing you were.


Seems to me the removal of an actively negative woman from your life, would be an improvement and you'd be happier. And that's the realistic worst case scenario for you.

Your "loss" would be that of hope. And I know that hurts but seems to me you really do overlook the possibility of having MORE HOPE W/HER.... by

dropping the rope,

than by still banging your head against the wall "trying" to please the unpleasable.

ISn't it clear by now she does NOT WANT to be happy AND OR does not know how?

And that's NOT your fault - but she wants it to be...(God I hope you attend that EE workshop...I cannot exaggerate it's influence on me and my life. My senior rater had a blast asking me about it...long story but a fun happy one...)

But then you can open your eyes to the wonderful person you are and the life you COULD create, possibly with HER...

I attended it decades ago, to address the issues I had from my screwy childhood and not wanting it to affect my marriage or my work (mostly career issues at the time, but I can see how it might spill over or block my happiness and THAT stinks for everyone )

ANYHOW, when I returned, h picked me up at the airport& he said he noticed an INSTANT change in my demeanor. That I looked "so serene" to him...weeks later, I had maintained the growth and processed it more and it deepened as I finally let some important lessons sink in....

h is NOT the workshop type of guy but dang it, HE went 3 months after me. He wanted "in" on it. When he returned from it (Which he attended without me, btw)...he said I'd given him the "Best gift [he'd] ever gotten"...and later on, we went together. It bonded us more deeply than anything else, except having children. It was THAT profound...but she stay stuck forever. POint is at least you won't be and you can get some clarity about your life path.

You're not here on Earth to suffer or pay for someone elses debts. Life is a gift. Enjoy it my friend.

In sum, Navy, I believe with all my heart that

Your w won't change without a dramatic intervention of some sort, (or an affair on either side) or something substantially big on your end.


So, if that's true, What are YOU going to do?

OR will you keep waiting for "it" to happen?

Remember, she's content (well, she's NOT "content" but I mean she's willing)

to live like this til the kids leave the house OR longer...OR til you get so fed up that you leave OR

until you have an affair she caused but she can then validate her long suffering beliefs that SHE is the victim and YOU are the victimizer...


Navy, do you believe, down deep, that you are a man another woman could love?


Did you date much before w?

I know you are in good shape, and I uniforms flatter all men...but are you --attractive? You clearly are smart and into being a dad. Those are very attractive traits...so
So, what is up with this insecurity of yours that I sense? Is it just fear of the unknown of bad past experiences? IF it's the latter, maybe you dated other high maintenance or nasty or unhealthy women..

in which case you can learn Not to do that again...

She's not the only one affected by childhood events for God's sake. Well I'm rambling now but I hope you

Keep us posted buddy. And hang in there, things WILL get better for you.

How are those children of yours?
_________________________
m:51 H:55
M: 30 yrs
S25,D23,D15
H goes ALASKAN, solo,2005
I file Sep 2/06
Piecing 7/07
Retrovaille Weekend 8/08
M Restored 8/08

Be Happy OR be "Right"

FORGIVENESS: Your way out of hell

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#2241605 - 04/29/12 10:21 PM Re: The Climb - Thread #6 [Re: 25yearsmlc]
greenblue90 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/09/11
Posts: 685
25
Not to derail too much, but that phase has been over for months. I guess that's what I get for not updating. :p As I became more confident and stronger I realized that the terms of the arrangement did not work for me at all. I was too angry and hurt, but too scared to admit it.

As I got more strength and became more assertive I finally stopped kidding myself and realized its not what I wanted. It's currently off the table. Only to be reconsidered if our marriage is absolutely stable, and we still want to try. Although I can tell that the more stable it gets, the less either of us is inclined to head that route.

IT IS playing with fire.

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#2242140 - 05/02/12 12:46 AM Re: The Climb - Thread #6 [Re: greenblue90]
Navyguy Offline
Member

Registered: 01/12/11
Posts: 349
Loc: Northern VA
Thanks for the posts everyone. I really appreciate everyone's comments. I will try to write more tomorrow, but wanted to let you all know I'm here and reading and re-reading your posts.
_________________________
BITS
M: 34
W: 33
T12, M9
D7, S5
ILYBINILY: June 09
Unofficially Separated (long distance): 1/2/11
W came home: 3/17/11
EE: July 2012
Official Member of the Rope-Dropping Club: Oct 2012
Piecing: April 2013

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#2244622 - 05/12/12 12:29 AM Re: The Climb - Thread #6 [Re: Navyguy]
25yearsmlc Offline
Member

Registered: 04/03/06
Posts: 10861
Loc: west coast
Navy

try to have a good weekend, (without expectations). If you encourage the kids to do right by their mom on Mother's Day and you thank her for your wonderful kids...

that's really enough, don't you think? I mean, a small gift or something made by the kids is about all I can imagine in your sitch but I don't know your past on this type of thing.

I just hope you are alright.
_________________________
m:51 H:55
M: 30 yrs
S25,D23,D15
H goes ALASKAN, solo,2005
I file Sep 2/06
Piecing 7/07
Retrovaille Weekend 8/08
M Restored 8/08

Be Happy OR be "Right"

FORGIVENESS: Your way out of hell

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