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#2242579 - 05/03/12 11:19 AM Re: this path is MY path [Re: BklynMom]
zig Offline
Member

Registered: 02/21/12
Posts: 1855
Loc: KS
bklynmom - thank you SO much for your thoughts - they helped me a lot. by the time i took the boys to school and came back, i felt much more calm and refocused.

Originally Posted By: BklynMom
"it's time for me to work through this and accept that it's a part of s and my life and find out what is the right way to help mitigate the effects of it for s."

I think we all hide the truth from ourselves. We dont even know that we are hiding anything. Even though you and MIL have talked about some of the problems you havent focused on solutions. Therapy and 12 step programs can help you with that.

you are very right about that- we have to look for solutions and therapy can help - i will also look into the 12 step thing. i need to refocus on what my needs are here in terms of what i have to work on with myself

Most people come from messed up families in one way or the other. Why do some people carry deeper effects than others? That is what we have to figure out for ourselves and our children. I look at my mother and her 7 brothers and sisters all raised by my grandfather a raging alcoholic. Out of 7 siblings 3 are addicts, 2 are nuts and 2 are upstanding citizens. Each of us reacts to hardship differently and your son has to know that even though his family is difficult that its okay. He doesnt need to hide it. I know being honest is a really good starting place.

yes i tried to be honest with him yesterday and stressed that what we were dealing with wasn't good or bad, it was just a problem that needed to be fixed. thank you for reminding me that all families are messed up. i think for me there is a trigger here. for 10 yrs h stressed incessantly how dysfunctional MY family and i were and that that was the reason for all our problems. i really believed him, because of my own insecurities, and actually looked to his family to "learn" how to be more functional. now, during this sitch, aim finding out, to my utter shock that there is dysfunctionality that is so deep and so damaging and i feel like i am floundering, trying to find my feet in the muck.

one thing that i don't think that i have mentioned - is that fill's mother committed suicide when the kids were young - which was devastating for them - especially since she shot herself in the head with a shotgun and the youngest found her when he came home from school. over the years, when h pushed me to my limit and beyond, i would sometimes say to him - i know why your grandmother did what she did - i know shocking - but to this day i still feel as if i know why. grandfather went ahead and married another woman 6 weeks after she died - and went on to have 3 more wives - fil and his siblings still talk about that as if they are traumatized about it


Some of more of my thoughts. Take what you like...

You should start therapy with you and your son. Your S should not be hiding behind a smile, he needs to have a safe place to talk about it.

you're right - i think i'll take him to the child therapist that h and i went to once. one thing i am concerned about is that s has sort of the same attitude towards therapy as h does - that something must be deeply wrong with a person if they go to therapy. maybe we don't have to use that word. i feel a bit odd about taking him without talking with h about it - any thoughts on that?

I think you should consider why you are banning your S from any contact with your SIL. To me it feels like you are hiding your SIL bad behavior.

my reasons are very clear to me -i believe that dysfunctional behavior is something that is learned. s hanging out with SIL and her friend with another 6 yr old child and his grandparents - all having SO MUCH FUN - is a crazy message to give a child. the subliminal message he receives in one way or the other is that it's okay to allow oneself to be part of any dysfunctional situation, and that everyone can pretend that everything is okay. it's what is going on in our sitch right now - we are all around him acting happy and not saying anything in a group setting - you couldn't even tell h and i are separated when we are at their house together - and so there's all this pain underneath that no one is allowed to express in any way. it's hardly surprising that s is reacting the way he is - he has learned that from his family.

Your S will have many different friends throughout his teenage years. Many with different values then your own. You cant keep him from all the unpleasant people he will meet. Your son seems quite astute and have you thought about having a open conversation with him about your SIL decision. That it is not something you agree with but she has decided that she is doing xyz ... Without harsh judgement just that it wouldnt be your choice.

so , something along the lines of: s, your aunt that you absolutely adore, had an affair while she was married to her partner, confessed it, worked on the relationship for a few months, but decided it was too much trouble (her partner divorced her) and went back to the woman she was having the affair with. now that woman is married to a man with whom she has a 6 yr old daughter, who is also having an affair with another woman, but even though i don't agree with what your aunt is doing, i' understand that you really want to hang out with her. it does not make me comfortable to know that you would be hanging out with your aunt's friend and i would prefer that you don't.

can you tell a 10 yr old something like that? heck, while i'm at it might as well tell him what his dad is doing also


Why do you refer to SIL boyfriend as her lover. It seems like a condesending term, havent they been together 2 years now. Does she refer to him as her lover? We all need to accept what is.

yes you're right - that is condescending of me, isn't it? i actually don't know how SIL thinks of her and what term she uses - all i know is that when sil talks to me about her sitch she seems a bit oblivious to what she is doing and only wants to have fun.

i guess, if i'm brutally honest - i'm a bit mad at SIL - she arranged to meet h in another town with OW. h and ow babysat the little girl -while sil and her friend and the husband worked. for me that is beyond what i can handle in terms of supporting family. just 3 months before that sil and i talked at x'mas when she was here, and she was so disapproving of what h was doing and so supportive of me wanting to work on the marriage.

so either she was pulling my leg, and saying what she thought i wanted to hear, or she cannot correlate her actions with her words. i guess it runs in the family -

Regarding the trip. I guess I misread your post. It sounded like your H didnt want to travel in the same car as you and didnt want you to go but I guess I misread it. Either way why not just ask H if he would like you to go. I think that asking is a win/win. You validate that there is a problem in the relationship and you are willing to take his feelings into consideration when deciding.

wherein lies the crux of th problem - when you ask h what he wants, he simply won't tell you - he just says i don't know, or withdraws. if i ask him directly if he would like me to go, he will either say yes to avoid whatever he thinks he's trying to avoid - or he sees it as a huge amount of pressure.

You are doing great. Be gentle with yourself.


thanks so much for your questions - they have made me think a lot - and even though i know my answers were long and explanatory, in my mind, i am trying to shift my perspective and be more open minded about all of this. i realize that holding all this and feeling resentful about it is not the right way to go about it. i see myself pulling fil, mil and sil's behavior into the sitch with h and need to separate them out. i see more clearly that for me it's more and more a moral and ethical problem that i have and that's what distresses me so much -

just like everyone else here, having to continually overextend myself in forgiving and letting pass and letting go of every detail sometimes gets exhausting, and i think over this, i've come to some emotional limit.

hearing your calm words helps me to put things into a bit more perspective

thanks
zig
_________________________
me 46 H 38
M10yrs T 11
S10
BD ow 8/11
h filed 9/25/12


"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"


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#2242586 - 05/03/12 11:43 AM Re: this path is MY path [Re: zig]
BklynMom Offline
Member

Registered: 09/29/11
Posts: 1784
You should absolutely consultant with your H before you start therapy with you and your son. You should also not jump into it and really find a good and qualified person. There are many many terrible therapist. Find the right one through personal recommendations, dont settle for a hack.

I will write more later.

Hugs
_________________________
----
M 39
H 35
D5,D4
M 4
T 9
ILYBNILWY 5/18/11
Left 7/11/11
Divorced 12/1/13


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#2242617 - 05/03/12 01:19 PM Re: this path is MY path [Re: BklynMom]
zig Offline
Member

Registered: 02/21/12
Posts: 1855
Loc: KS
the therapist for children that we found came highly recommended.

i asked h to go with me and we went once about a month ago - by the end of the appointment i think she'd 'read" h, and asked him to work on himself and be more free and expressive with his emotions as it was obvious that s was modeling after h.

h doesn't seem to want to go anymore. it's taking him a long tome to process what took place there - and he's not ready to face it.( on the other hand, if i am to be truly honest - he took a really long time coming around, didn't make the next appointment as we agreed and i got a bit fed up when he asked if he should make it, and said well it seems as if you don't want to go so what's the point of going. not my best moment - and i have been waiting to rectify that and let him know that i would rather go than not.)

we had agreed together, that s was not to be a part of the therapy at least for now, unless the therapist recommended that things were very concerning. i was against s going to any kind of therapy - just for the reasons you stated, but now, after seeing his coping skills, i am getting more and more concerned

the last couple of weeks i have reassured myself that s is doing much better - because i too want to believe that, but he was just riding on the excitement of h buying a house and all the kiln firing events that made him feel more connected to h.

i knew that deep down - h has a wonderful way of getting s really excited about stuff - but with the house, there's a bit of an agenda behind it - he needs very much to know that s is very happy right now, and he knows that involving s in a building project is close to s's heart. the sad thing is that eventually, even s will not be able to ignore the fact that the house is for h and him and i don't have anything to do with it, and reality will hit again.

as for consulting h about going with s for therapy - just the thought of it scares the shite out of me right now. and that sounds pathetic doesn't it?

the real issue here is that how this separation affects s is the BIG sensitive trigger for h. he simply cannot deal with it for more than a few minutes - for him to acknowledge it fully is for him to look at what he's doing and i just don't think he's ready for that. i believe that he will react so strongly that i'm not sure i can handle it right now.

and that's even more pathetic - that i can't handle it for son's sake?

maybe later after i am feeling less fragile, i can get a better handle on what to do.

right now, after the events of last weekend, h has withdrawn fiercely and i know that part of what i'm dealing with here is the disappointment of that and how his withdrawals affect me. at least now i am more cognizant of my reactions and even though they are there, they are a little less weighted.
_________________________
me 46 H 38
M10yrs T 11
S10
BD ow 8/11
h filed 9/25/12


"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"


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#2242627 - 05/03/12 02:05 PM Re: this path is MY path [Re: zig]
zig Offline
Member

Registered: 02/21/12
Posts: 1855
Loc: KS
i decided to email h and ask if he would go with me to the therapist for s. before i send it, i would love some feedback on what i wrote

thanks
zig

HI
there is something i'd like to discuss with you. it is regarding our last conversation, when you had called to ask whether you should make an appointment with C, on the day when we had earlier agreed that we would go.

i have put alot of thought into my reaction to you and in recognizing my own role in the pattern that plays out between us.

it pretty much goes like this. you and i agree on something, then time passes and there is no indication that it is being carried out. i become upset , while at the same time trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. then i become impatient, and when you are finally ready to deal with it, i react by saying "well, you didn't want to do it anyway, so what's the point"

in the end the one that loses is s.

i am sorry that i reacted in that way. i believe that you were trying to say that we should go, even though it was really hard for you to do, and i basically blew off your efforts, because you didn't do it in the time frame that we agreed on. i am learning that each person handles things in their own time, and that over the years, i always became impatient because it took you longer to process things than it took me to do so.

we do really need to go do this for s - i think you and i could learn alot about how to help him through this.

i would much rather think that he is fine, because it is very painful for me to acknowledge that he is not. but it was that very attitude over the last 10 yrs that allowed me to be reckless in my behavior, within our family. i would like us to use this time now to rectify that as much as possible.

if you have changed your mind and would prefer not to go, i understand, but i would like to say that i would like to see us go together so that we are on the same page about everything to do with s.

i called this morning and asked when they had an appointment available next week - the only ones open are 10 and 11 am on monday (7th). would the 10 am one be good for you?

i need to cancel by tomorrow, so if you could let me know this evening or in the morning that would be great.


what do you guys think?

thanks zig
_________________________
me 46 H 38
M10yrs T 11
S10
BD ow 8/11
h filed 9/25/12


"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"


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#2242651 - 05/03/12 03:27 PM Re: this path is MY path [Re: zig]
oldtimer Offline
Member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 4474
I think you are wayyyy over enmeshed and involved in his family, and are projecting your hurt and anger onto his family in myriad ways. Back off. Get out. It is HIS family. And it is not suddenly a horrible family.

As for SIL, it sounds like her partner is in an open M. Thus, the term "affair" sounds pretty inaccurate. You may not approve of her lifestyle,

For the email -- I think it would be good NOT to send it. It is really pretty clearly mostly about you and your needs, whether you see it or not. It is a lot about trying to get H to see the light. It is a lot about your M and less about your son. Try this:

"Hi,

Sorry I was so rude and unappreciative about your offer to schedule our next appointment with C. It wasn't fair to you or S. I can and will try to do better.

Since I shot down your offer, I figured it was on me to make the next appointment. They only had two times next week, Monday at 10 or 11. I had them schedule us for 10 in the hopes that it would work for you. Let me know if 10 works, or if I should switch it to 11.

If neither of those times works, I hope you'll give me a do over. "Yes, it would be great if you'd schedule the next appointment. Thanks!"

Apologies again. My reactiveness was uncalled for and not at all helpful."
_________________________
Best,
Oldtimer

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#2242655 - 05/03/12 03:35 PM Re: this path is MY path [Re: oldtimer]
BklynMom Offline
Member

Registered: 09/29/11
Posts: 1784
dont have time to read your whole email but its wayyyyy tooooo long.

I like ot suggestion
_________________________
----
M 39
H 35
D5,D4
M 4
T 9
ILYBNILWY 5/18/11
Left 7/11/11
Divorced 12/1/13


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#2242671 - 05/03/12 05:11 PM Re: this path is MY path [Re: oldtimer]
zig Offline
Member

Registered: 02/21/12
Posts: 1855
Loc: KS
thanks old-timer - i need a real kick in the butt here - yes, i am too enmeshed in that family and it's freaking me out to find out how i get pulled in by them.

i guess i'm really hurt by their total disregard for my feelings on the subject, in spite of them feeling exactly the same thing.

i guess i'm also really scared that when it's time for h to bring ow over they will just accept it and i feel so shamed by that.

so i have a lot to work through, and i AM projecting all my [censored] onto all of them and it [censored], because i know that i' doing it because i'm hurting.

about SIL - well neither mil or fil can stand what she's doing, and complain about it to me all the time and so did h - until he started his own affair. in fact h was vociferously against it and only 2 months before his own affair told his sister that she needed to stop what she was doing and go back to her wife.

so here i am, still holding on to my principles, while they are saying one thing and doing another - i swear it feels like they are all in MLC.

i know i have to lessen the contact with them, and not take on the responsibility of making sure s's relationship with them stays consistent. that is h's job, not mine.

and here i go, defending myself once again.

as for your description of my email - wow - i have a lot to learn, don't i? there i was thinking that i was making it all about him, but it was still about me, wasn't it? still trying to prove that i'm right, still trying to show him on some level what he's doing.

[censored] [censored]
no wonder my db'ing efforts aren't working - i don't even know where to start to even begin to get it right. i was just trying to own what i did and it just lands up sounding wrong.

well ,if you have the time, i would appreciate more advice on how to go about this. i don't even know whether i should say anything, because after i posted i started thinking that maybe i shouldn't push at all, shouldn't say anything.

i feel under so much pressure about s - all the family and friends keep telling me we should go - h doesn't really want to , and i find it really painful to sit there with him.

thank you again
zig
_________________________
me 46 H 38
M10yrs T 11
S10
BD ow 8/11
h filed 9/25/12


"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"


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#2242718 - 05/03/12 08:53 PM Re: this path is MY path [Re: zig]
zig Offline
Member

Registered: 02/21/12
Posts: 1855
Loc: KS
mil called earlier today to ask what had happened - when i told her , she was upset at fil - they had ,, she thought, specifically decided they weren't going to take s with them on the trip. fil actually told her that i was the one who brought up the trip

i explained my feelings and she really validated them. we couldn't talk long because she had a meeting, but said she wanted to talk more about it and they had handled it really badly and i was right in what i had felt.

i told her i wasn't proud of what i had done but that i had left more because i was scared rather than angry and i just couldn't take it right then

we didn't resolve anything as there wasn't time, but i do believe that i am just going to let her take care of things with fil. i believe she will be much better at communicating with him -than i can ever hope to be.
.
_________________________
me 46 H 38
M10yrs T 11
S10
BD ow 8/11
h filed 9/25/12


"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"


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#2242719 - 05/03/12 08:54 PM Re: this path is MY path [Re: zig]
zig Offline
Member

Registered: 02/21/12
Posts: 1855
Loc: KS
i've also decided to wait on the appointment issue with h. there is no point in pressuring him - if he really wanted to go, he would have pushed himself to make his point . i feel i need to lay low with him - back off completely - so there is no pressure at all

he has withdrawn this week fiercely since the events of last weekend, and after a conversation with my mom today - she pointed out how so many things that happened could be taken as pressure by him - even from his friends and from what his mom said to him

and as my sweet friend pointed out today - i can ride in the car with her, and that i shouldn't miss this for the world - the kids are going to their first Pentathlon and have been training for months. i'm just going to go hang out with all my lovely friends, and h will be right there next to me - as he always does when we socialize with this group - but i can see that we are doing it in this case as a family for s not for anything else.

getting back to my good place in my mind - these "crisis" need to stop happening - i really have to work on that in a big way - i'm wearing myself down, and that isn't even a part of what h is contributing!!

i listed to my mom all the things i needed to work on within myself - so it is clearer for me
_________________________
me 46 H 38
M10yrs T 11
S10
BD ow 8/11
h filed 9/25/12


"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"


Top
#2242732 - 05/03/12 09:39 PM Re: this path is MY path [Re: zig]
oldtimer Offline
Member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 4474
"getting back to my good place in my mind - these "crisis" need to stop happening - i really have to work on that in a big way - i'm wearing myself down, and that isn't even a part of what h is contributing!!"

Yes.

And, the best way you can help your son is to NOT put him in a place where he is supposed to be your emotional support right now. Not his job. And, it automatically puts him in the middle. But, more important, a child should not ever have to try to manage the emotional welfare of a parent. Not good. Voice of experience here.
_________________________
Best,
Oldtimer

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