I have been reading therabbithole (Nickel's) thread and I got to this part:
Quote:
"Do I call my XH to hang out because I really enjoy his company and all I really want is to be friends?" or "Do I call him to go out in an effort to try and confuse his relationship with the OW further pushing my way in his life?"
My honest anwer: to confuse and manipulate his relationship. Cause if I truly was interested in just a friendship, it wouldn't matter if he brought the OW along or not. So why would it bother me if she was there? Because he would be distracted and I wouldn't get my chance to "woo" him.
So I thought, why didn't I realize and accept this before...actually if you remember I had told him that I didn't think we should hang out and he was upset and told me that I was being selfish. So I thought, you know he's right, but that was just my way of saying it's his problem not mine. When in reality...it is my problem. I'm pushing choices on him that don't need to be placed. If I don't ask him to do anything anymore (instead of telling him I'm not to let him make me feel okay about it) and he asks me, then it truly is his choice. If I continue on the path of asking him to do things I will never know if he does choose me that he freely made that choice or if I manipulated his relationship. And because I can't handle the OW when him and I are together (at least not right now), it isn't fair of me or nice for that matter to ask him to choose. I'd rather know that he gave their relationship the chance it deserves and if it works out...then that's how it was supposed to go. I don't want to be clouding the waters, trying to control the situation only to have them fight about me. It will completely backfire and I'm glad I realized all of this now. I have to let it be what it is...and if they argue about how I'm interfering with their relationship, it's because HE brought me into it, not that I injected myself.
Hope that makes sense....so I'm on a mission...no initiation of contact with him...at least not until I can honestly say "Do you and OW want to go do something?"
And I started because I know in my deepest heart that this is what I want to do. I want to be in a place where I can say I'm supportive of whatever you choose. And I'm genuinely happy for you.
Brit...keep your chin up, it does sound like you are on a good path. Concentrate on YOU...and all will be okay. One thing I have learned through my sitch is that I cannot control anyone but myself...I also cannot be responsible for anyone elses feelings and/or happiness. Only we, individually, can be responsible for those things. I truly believe that my W needs to figure that out for herself...that she was relying on me to make her happy, for me to be perfect, when she never would try to figure out for herself what was truly making her miserable. I've come to realize that that was not very fair to me...almost setting me up to fail so that she could have someone (thing) to blame if her idea of a perfect life didn't work out as she planned.
We don't have the same sitch with OP...at least as far as I know...me, no...her, 99.99% sure. But that doesn't matter...this is her choice to D...she will have to live with that as it appears you undertsand...but I also hope that it brings her to a place where she discovers that she needs to be happy with herself, without me. This will only build her self confidence so that if we ever do R, then we will only be stronger because of it. If we don't R, then at least there are two more self confident, happier people out there.
Me:44, W: 39 D:16, D:14, D:11(special needs) M:17, T:21+ Bomb:3/18/12 W contacted mediator for D:3/27/12 Separate since bomb Mediation, signed agreement 5/17/12 No talk of D since mediation
TD: that was almost a mantra my IC kept saying to me "You're only responsible for yourself" and I say I know but, and she would say "You're only responsible for yourself"
I've done a lot of thinking lately about OW.
I don't really think she's an OW I think she's H's GF. He never cheated on me, he met her well after we separated and I even encouraged him to date. By calling her an OW, I'm putting myself in a victim role or in a position of being the rightful partner and she's the intruder.
I'm trying to live my life as becoming okay with what is...not how I want them to be or how I wish the past had happened or how I hope the future will be....just being okay with NOW.
He is in a relationship for better or worse, whether it's for 2 weeks, 2 years, or both thier lives, he has a GF. I am not in a battle to win him back (that's in my head) I rejected him. Then I made my intensions clear and he said not now. So right now I can be friendly, I can be supportive, and I can enjoy his company if/when he chooses to give it to me.
negative: I texted him today re taking me to my dr appt. Positive: before he had a chance to reply I reconsidered my MOTIVES and replied to say actually I can move things around and go on my own. Don't worry..it's easier for both of us this way.
Whether he had offered or not, I wasn't asking because I NEEDED a ride to the hospital I was asking because I wanted him to come, I wanted him by my side, and I wanted to feel like we were a partnership. He may have wanted to do all those things, I know his love language is acts of service, buuuuuut that might be confusing for me. And for me I think it's best I go on my own, not lean on him for emotional support.
I feel like this is massive massive massive personal growth for me. TO look at WHY I was going to do something, whether that's the best thing for me rather than "my goal of R", and make a grown up decision.
By calling her an OW, I'm putting myself in a victim role or in a position of being the rightful partner and she's the intruder.
I'm trying to live my life as becoming okay with what is...not how I want them to be or how I wish the past had happened or how I hope the future will be....just being okay with NOW.
He is in a relationship for better or worse, whether it's for 2 weeks, 2 years, or both thier lives, he has a GF. I am not in a battle to win him back (that's in my head) I rejected him. Then I made my intensions clear and he said not now. So right now I can be friendly, I can be supportive, and I can enjoy his company if/when he chooses to give it to me.
negative: I texted him today re taking me to my dr appt. Positive: before he had a chance to reply I reconsidered my MOTIVES and replied to say actually I can move things around and go on my own. Don't worry..it's easier for both of us this way.
Whether he had offered or not, I wasn't asking because I NEEDED a ride to the hospital I was asking because I wanted him to come, I wanted him by my side, and I wanted to feel like we were a partnership. He may have wanted to do all those things, I know his love language is acts of service, buuuuuut that might be confusing for me. And for me I think it's best I go on my own, not lean on him for emotional support.
I feel like this is massive massive massive personal growth for me. TO look at WHY I was going to do something, whether that's the best thing for me rather than "my goal of R", and make a grown up decision.
He did ask that I let him know what happens.
I agree wholeheartedly! Being aware of my motives and letting go of expectations is a constant battle for me.
Good luck, it seems you've hit a groove.
Just don't let the bumps throw you off.
Me 57/H 58 M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13
Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do. I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering. Caroline Myss
Hi Brit. I see a lot of my own situation in your story (though my WAW's are a bit more extreme.
Nevertheless, she followed a similar pattern. Decided unilaterally (before she advised me) that we were done. Then went out to seek attention/date (somewhat secretly). When I found out, she told me she was doing it to be happy. She said she still loved me and also wanted me to be happy and that I should go out and find someone who would help me with that. She said it was clear to her that she wasn't that person.
In response, I, like your husband, have made positive changes... lost weight, found friends, took up hobbies, improved things for myself at work. These changes were not to impress her, but to occupy myself and take my mind off the anxiety and disappointment I'm feeling. After six months, I'm off the sleeping pills, focused on my future plans (which don't include my WAW) and being the best Dad I can be. I'm actually excited about finding and setting up my own home in a new place and the opportunities for new friendships and relationships that will exist there.
Through the process of detaching and GAL, I've learned that happiness comes from inside. You can never rely on anyone else to make you happy. You can share happiness with someone, but can't rely on them for it. Either you're content with yourself, or you're not. If you're not, your unmeetable emotional needs will wreak havoc on the lives of those around you.
As I said, I'm moving forward, making my own plans -- laying the groundwork for changing jobs and countries. Now my wife will have to make career and parenting choices based on MY choices. She exercised her free will. Now I exercise mine. It's not a punishment; it's what I need to do to enhance my life and happiness as a newly single person.
She seems to have thought she could have the best of both worlds... continue to rely on me selectively for her emotional needs, lean on me financially and as "co-parent" while she goes out and seeks my 'replacement'. I'm not having it. Things won't be on her terms. Full stop.
I suspect this is some of what your husband felt, too. He came to terms with your choices and moved on. Now you have to come to terms with his choice to do so, and the fact that he GAL. Sorry if that seems harsh, but there are consequences to every choice.
I'm convinced there's little chance of reconciliation between my WAW and I (not that she is expressing any interest in reconciliation). She says she wants 'amicable' separation... still wants me in her life when it's convenient, but also wants her idependence.
The thing she (and all WASs) need to understand is that, as the LBS, it's my choice whether to forgive/forget/be friendly. Betray us, lie to us, cheat on us, cut us off... we will go away... but realise that's what you asked for and be big enough to deal with it when it finally happens. You can't have it both ways.
I may or may not want my WAW in my life to some degree (beyond sharing parenting responsibilities). I haven't decided. I'll decide when I'm ready, and let her know then.
Some of the best advice I read for a LBS was in "Codependent No More": I'm paraphrasing here, but it was basically, detach (lovingly or not) but move on. Forgive or not, but move on. Cut the purveyor of your pain off; don't allow them to hurt you any more.
A few posts back, you asked for a man's opinion on what it would take to rebuild things. I've been thinking about relationships alot lately and here's an analogy that's come to me:
Building a relationship is like building a house. The foundation is trust... something you develop as you begin dating, get to know each other, start spending time together and intertwining your lives. On that foundation of trust, you begin to build a structure -- a network of shared friends and extended family, marriage, kids, shared responsibilities, interdependencies, an orchestrated way of doing things day-to-day based on each others' strengths and needs. Over time, the structure grows and it becomes MORE complicated to maintain.
It's like adding rooms to the house... it becomes more of a responsibility to take care of as it grows. But make no mistake, you need to take care of it or it will fall into disrepair.
So you'll need to do maintenance and make fixes along the way. Every so often, you need to do some major spring cleaning or a full-out renovation to keep the structure sound and make it a nice place to 'live in'. In relationship terms, that means making adjustments in the ways you interact, maybe seeking therapy when you hit a rough spot, etc.
When someone walks away, though, or cheats, it's like blowing up the foundation of the house. The rooms (i.e., the day-to-day routine and interdependencies, financial support, family relationships, etc.) fall down as a result. The relationship can't hold up on their own without that foundation of trust.
To reconcile, you need to rebuild the foundation... that means rebuilding trust. For me in my situation, that would mean my wife showing genuine remorse for the things she's done. ("Sorry I made you feel sad" doesn't cut it). She will have to be an open book with respect to her whereabouts, her online activity, her spending, etc.
After the foundation crumbles, to rebuild you need to go back to the beginning... start giving a reason to trust again through transparency and openness. You need to reaffirm for your spouse the things you appreciate about him/her. The material is all still there, you don't need to quarry it anew, you just have to begin to reassemble the rubble into a solid form. It takes hard work, and it takes time.
I wish you luck. And I only hope that one day my WAW will be willing to start rebuilding, like you seem to be willing to do with your H.
I don't really think she's an OW I think she's H's GF. He never cheated on me, he met her well after we separated and I even encouraged him to date. By calling her an OW, I'm putting myself in a victim role or in a position of being the rightful partner and she's the intruder.
That is awesome insight, Brit! It can go a long way to help you stay our of anger, resentment, and bitterness...
I'm impressed... you really get this! I'm specifically referring to:
Quote:
I don't really think she's an OW I think she's H's GF. He never cheated on me, he met her well after we separated and I even encouraged him to date. By calling her an OW, I'm putting myself in a victim role or in a position of being the rightful partner and she's the intruder.
And I'm doubly happy to read this:
Quote:
I'm trying to live my life as becoming okay with what is...not how I want them to be or how I wish the past had happened or how I hope the future will be....just being okay with NOW.
I don't know if you've read Eckhart Tolle? He's kind of a woo-woo writer. But if you can really read and float above his very deep words, you can see what he's trying to say. And this is exactly his recipe for happiness. He says we all live too much in the past or the future, which prevents us from being happy... right here in the now.
I realize they are extremely simplistic words on a paper and very difficult to live. But even if we make some gains in that direction, we have a better chance of living that way.
Quote:
He is in a relationship for better or worse, whether it's for 2 weeks, 2 years, or both thier lives, he has a GF. I am not in a battle to win him back (that's in my head) I rejected him. Then I made my intensions clear and he said not now. So right now I can be friendly, I can be supportive, and I can enjoy his company if/when he chooses to give it to me.
I don't know what your outcome will be, but this is the most unselfish thing ever. And even if you don't wind up together, you should be able to look yourself in the mirror and be proud of this. Because this is what love is all about.
And the one thing I don't want you to forget is that there was a reason you traveled this path. Do more soul searching on that, because you were not happy and it brought pain to your R. Be honest about it.
What helped me really do this for my XH is to have my own mantra/assumption: that we all do the best job we can with what we know and have. If I assumed that he was trying to be the best person he could, it helped me see him as he is and how I am... a flawed human being with frailties and weaknesses who was just trying the best he could.
Again, that's hard to do, but it's an act of love to give others the benefit of the doubt. It also requires stepping up when they clearly are NOT doing the best they can. I tried to do this in as loving, humane way as possible... by asking him, "Since you seem awfully upset and taking out on me, is there something we need to talk about?" 100% of the time, it reframed our interactions. I still do that to this day. I don't assume he's pi$$ed off at me and out to get me. And the majority of the time, he returns the favor. It's important to me, because we have 2 daughters. One of them is developmentally disabled and I'm gonna have to parent her with him for the rest of our lives. I REALLY don't want to do that in an unhealthy fashion.
Anyway, you're a quick learner and I'm proud of you for getting to this point. It's only going to help you in the long run.
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Thank you all so much! I read your comments and started crying. It's so good to have someone say you're doing good and you're learning.
Underdog: I think I've heard of Eckhart Tolle I follow Zen Moments on twitter and I think they have tweeted some of his quotes. I'm an woo-woo type person so that's okay with me! I will check it out!
I wasn't happy. I had my son when I was quite young and when I met my H, my son was becoming more independent. Between raising my son, going to college, and working, I never found hobbies other than nights out with friends. I recognise now that needed to find me away from being a mom, but I never did that not when you have a baby 2 months after graduating from high school!
I know that I looked to my H to be this life I wanted. And I didn't do things on my own because I always wanted him with me. So then I gave up, did things on my own and we just further and further apart.
He gave up a lot of himself thinking if he agreed with everything the M would work. I knew he wasn't always being honest. Either because he would say one thing and his actions would show he really wasn't okay with it or just because I kinda knew. So I second guessed everything he said, overanalyzed what he might want, and hounded him again and again if what he'd said yes to was what he really wanted or not.
We have recognised a lot of these things. And I'm continuing to look at ways I/we went wrong
I read something that said no one's trying to hurt you, you're both just doing the best you can. It felt good for me to think of think of things that way. And once he said I hate feeling like I'm hurting you I was able to say and mean it I know you're not trying to hurt that neither one of us wants to hurt each other we're both just doing the best we can. So I have been practicing your mantra. it's a good one!
You are so right. In the past I was angry that he was choosing someone he'd had a few dates with over us. I had told him I wanted to work on things shouldn't that trump anything and anyone. But it wasn't a choice between me and her. It was a choice for his path he'd begun after being left 4 months prior. I kept making it about him choosing someone over me in my head when I don't think that was ever the case. And the resentment and jealousy was all about having a focal point for the disspointment that I couldn't control the situation. Like a child I wanted to stomp my foot because I wanted us to work on our marriage and if we weren't it's all her fault.
bit silly when you say it out loud.
I am going to try my hardest to be that friend, which is why I changed my mind on that dr appt. A friend doesn't have ulterior motives or an agenda.
The idea of, I think someone called it, a dance of uncertainty is massive for me.
I make lists, I plan, I look at things from every angle, I set things up and have all the information ahead of time. It makes me great at my job, not so great at M.
I've said before I can't influence or manipulate the situation. What I do want to do in developing my friendship is making sure he trusts that even though my Change of Heart hit him as he said out the blue it is permanent. But I don't want to pursue or pressure.
The problem with going dark and pursuing is that they are two sides of the coin. I need a different currency!
Instead of thinking a good friend texts, calls, etc and doesn't worry about who initiated, I need to remember that a good friend respects what the other needs. He needs space, he needs time, and my patience.
I have to just let it go, trust that he will come back to the friendship, and be there when he does.
Betsey