OT- How can I not take advice from someone named Old Timer! Thanks. Don't laugh but I googled "how to validate some else's feelings". Ok, that's what I will do.
YankeeCandle- do you have any books that have helped you since we are in a similar situation?
Thanks!!
M 37, H 37 M 10, T 12 S 4 D 2 3/14/12 ILYBNILWY 4/2/12 H consults a L, files nothing 4/26/12 H moves to his new place
Stick with "How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It" for now. Here are the cliffnotes: Men feel an intense need to be a good provider. When you shame them, by criticizing, complaining, nagging, etc. it gives them a "cortisol dump" in their brain which triggers a fight or flight response. This is a physically uncomfortable feeling, and they will withdraw emotionally to avoid it.
If this becomes a repeating pattern in your marriage, they REALLY won't want to continued shots of cortisol, so they will avoid you, withdraw, go to the bar, go to their mancave, work on their car, whatever they can do.
Women need to feel secure and connected. When men withdraw, this threatens women's security and makes them pursue to get that connection and security back. Usually they're not in a very good state of mind at this point, so affection and words of affirmation isn't the natural place to go. Instead, it's usually complaints, nagging etc.
As you can see, it's a negatively reinforcing cycle where neither one of you is getting your needs met, and your reaction to how you are feeling makes it worse. He withdraws, you pursue, he feels worse and withdraws more, you get increasingly frustrated and complain more, he feels worse, and around you go.
So many aspects of our relationships are characterized by these cycles. Another good book to read is "The Sex Starved Marriage", whether your marriage was sex starved or not, it's still a good relationship book about male/female dynamics. You know that men and women are wired very differently sexually. Men feel emotionally connected through sex, they will try to pursue sex to establish that connecion. Women feel emotionally connected through communication and quality time. When H doesn't give you the communication and quality time you want, you're not inclined to have sex with him. When he wants sex and doesn't get it, he feels rejected and is less likely to want to communicate and spend quality time with you and again, around you go.
The point is to recognize these cyclical dynamics in your marriage whatever they may be. When you see them start to happen, it can be helpful to call it out -- i.e. "here we go again, we're doing that thing where I do X and you do Y." Pointing it out in that way takes the personalities out of it and can help you break the cycle.
You also can identify what creates positive cycles in your marriage. If you compliment H on how well he does something, or tell him how much you appreciate it when he does X, he's more likely to do it. That makes him feel good, like a good provider, and he's more willing to connect with you emotionally. You can get these things spinning in a positive direction too, you just need to start to recognize the patterns and how to feed them.
Accuray
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
Thanks Accuray, I am almost halfway throughout it, it really does apply to my sitch. I just always like to have another book on order, for me reading these boards and the books makes me feel proactive, and it decreases my anxiety.
I have had an interesting weekend. H has been around a lot, hanging with the kids. He suggested that we eat dinner together tonight "as a family" for the kids sake. He then said that he wants to do that every Sunday even after the divorce and until I am with someone else and don't want him to come over anymore. Then he started to cry. I tried to just listen and validate. I felt like the conversations this weekend were all reversed, like I was the one leaving. But I tried to just validate, even though at times I would catch myself dominating the conversation and he should get quiet. At least I notice myself doing this.
I did GAL and go out with friends last night, but there is still a big piece of me that is not myself.
M 37, H 37 M 10, T 12 S 4 D 2 3/14/12 ILYBNILWY 4/2/12 H consults a L, files nothing 4/26/12 H moves to his new place
My favorite relationship books I read other than MWD's were "The Five Love Languages", "Passionate Marriage", "The Passion Trap" and "The Solo Partner". I can recommend all of those, pretty much in that order. I read a bunch more, those were just my favorites.
Accuray
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
BM- thanks and I see you had a great weekend! Excited for you.
Accuray- thanks for the book suggestions, almost done with the "how to improve your marriage without talking about it". It made me realize how much impact a SSM can have on a man. I totally changed in that area after we had kids.
Tonight we were supposed to tell the kids, but I have a pretty bad sinus infection and feeling under the weather so he said "let's just do it tomorrow". I think he is dreading it as much as me.
Tomorrow am we have 2 hours of therapy and my DB coach says my 180 would be to open up and be vulnerable like H was last week. I am nervous about that, just writing it makes my heart race a little. But no one said this would be easy.
He is slowly taking things over to his new place. He got an air mattress and has been sleeping on that when he stays there. I gave him some extra kitchen stuff and the name of the movers my friend used, since my coach said to pretend that it was my brother moving. He hasn't given me an official move date.
One of his main complaints is how messy I kept our house, and I have been really good about keeping it warm and inviting when he comes over. He did comment on it today, I said "thanks".
Even if we don't R our M, I can say that this has been good for his relationship with our kids. I can be a bit overbearing with the kids, they have to eat this, not watch that, etc. I have totally stepped back and allowed him to do what he wants with them. Although they are eating more happy meals than I would choose at least he is now taking a much more active role with them.
I have been kind of up and down this weekend, because it seems like we are getting along well, but I don't want to get my hopes up. I find myself thinking about the "what ifs" much more than I would like to admit. I am trying to trust the process.....
M 37, H 37 M 10, T 12 S 4 D 2 3/14/12 ILYBNILWY 4/2/12 H consults a L, files nothing 4/26/12 H moves to his new place
Good stuff here. I really liked Accuray's synopsis of the book. I've discovered that his cliff notes are pretty much dead on with my own experiences. Then on top of it, we have P/A men in the mix. A pretty volatile combination.
I actually bristled at this, so rather than react here and project my own feelings, I figured I would ask you first how you felt about it.
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He suggested that we eat dinner together tonight "as a family" for the kids sake. He then said that he wants to do that every Sunday even after the divorce and until I am with someone else and don't want him to come over anymore.
So... how do you feel about this? I mean what you REALLY want out of this. Not what you think HE wants.
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I did GAL and go out with friends last night, but there is still a big piece of me that is not myself.
This is definitely going to take time. But in order to run, you have to walk first. You're just learning how to walk, so keep at it. Self care is a priority in helping this process. I should know... I do a really crappy job of this myself.
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Good luck with the C today. It *is* hard. There are no shortcuts, and the only way to the other side is through it.
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I can be a bit overbearing with the kids, they have to eat this, not watch that, etc. I have totally stepped back and allowed him to do what he wants with them. Although they are eating more happy meals than I would choose at least he is now taking a much more active role with them.
Ya know, this is a great time in your kids' lives to address this kind of stuff. Lucky you! Some stuff you might want to put on the table for discussion:
1. Have a meeting with H to get on board with a parenting plan. I think all families should have one anyway. Agree on the boundaries, make concessions where you can and come up with strategies in getting him to be your ally with the kids rather than an enemy. Don't get too caught up in the little details, but use this as a blueprint from which to operate. Whatever you adopt with him, make sure it works for both of you and then back each other up. If they learn early on that you are going to enforce what their dad says, he will do the same for you. So the important thing is to get a system that works for the entire family and back each other up no matter what.
2. I have teenagers (as well as nieces and nephews), so this is a path I've traveled and continue to travel. While it is clear that kids need boundaries, rules and parents who are not friends first, your job is to help your kids learn how to make good choices. The good news is that your kids are young enough to do this. And you might win these skirmishes by controlling them now while they are young, but you might lose the war in the long run. So learn how to navigate them with success. Face it, nobody wants to be controlled!
Kids like having choices... so if your goal to win the war is to get them to eat at least 2 servings of fruits and veggies at dinner, give them choices between them. They have a say in the process, but you're still getting what you know is best for them in the big picture.
The same with TV or other extra curricular events. Tie those rewards to expectations... for example, it is not unreasonable to ask your 4 year old to set and clear the table and pick up toys before dinner. Reward them with a half hour of activity they enjoy... "You can choose either a half hour of watching TV (again, building choices in programs that are acceptable), or a video game, or coloring with me if you get your chores done."
This is the kind of behavior that prevents the nagging and baggage that comes with nagging, and rather than address the negative behavior, you are building up and supporting positive reinforcement for cooperating. I can tell you from personal experience that it works. It's not rocket science to adopt a pattern of rewarding behavior that is positive. They learn they have choices in the mix.
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One of his main complaints is how messy I kept our house, and I have been really good about keeping it warm and inviting when he comes over. He did comment on it today, I said "thanks".
Great! Now get those kids to help you clean up too... you are not the boss in charge of mess all by yourself.
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Betsey, I am glad that I am not the only one that finds the confusing, that he wants to have family dinner with us. I am confused by all of his actions. I am so confused after our session today, it was good, emotional, we were talking and interacting well, the therapist even said how much she enjoys working with us because we are making so much progress. After the session I did errands and called my husband to see what time he was coming to be with the kids. He said he was at his new place and sad and crying so hard he can't talk. When he was here tonight he hugged me tight, for a long time. He never does that. He is asleep in S4's bed, said he wanted to stay in case one of the kids woke up tonight since I am feeling a little under the weather. I am confused, is he just saying goodbye? Is he just feeling guilty so he is trying to be a good dad?
What about that statement made you bristle? what is your take? I would love to hear your opinion because you are insightful and understand the mind of the P/A man. You are also not on my current roller coaster so you are much more able to give an objective opinion! Thanks so much
M 37, H 37 M 10, T 12 S 4 D 2 3/14/12 ILYBNILWY 4/2/12 H consults a L, files nothing 4/26/12 H moves to his new place
Betsey