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25thepoint I understand. But 25 it is over. Honestly it is really over. Yes I react to the rage if reacting is saying please do not treat and talk to me in that manner to her.

That causes her to threaten me to call cops and everything else. It is unbelievable. Hangs the phone up on me. Accuses me of having agendas and everything else in the book

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Originally Posted By: netmaster
Mr. B I tried to talk to her about it. She flipped out. Threatened to call cops. Take kids from me (cuz we don't have official plan) It is unbelievable.


Why do I get the feeling your version of "talking" to her, has big fat elements of rage in it?

Are you saying "She flipped out" b/c you calmly asked her to clarify something son said? Really?

You need some communication tools, which YOU sorely lack. She may lack them too, but for sure YOU do, and she's not here posting.

So please, Get some communication tools so you learn how to talk (or email if you have to) BUT without setting each other off...

even if you are only going to be co-parents together...

As for the mediation...

Why couldn't you just go to the mediator and LISTEN? Consider it a mission and your task was to 'gather intel"....not to decide anything then & there.

NO ONE will ask or force you to do that.

You LISTEN, you get information and then IF NEED BE,

you tell them you need TIME to reflect and ponder b/c you do not want to be impulsive.

As for her telling your son that you'll never come home...

I can see that it would hurt your feelings b/c you feel that it means things are hopeless AND OR, that it hurt son's feelings. I get that.

But why all the RAGE in your post? Did you even get the facts from her?

Son may have asked her directly if & when you were returning home. That's a natural question but she MAY have not been ready for the question. Ever think of that?

and since she felt that no change on your end had occurred, she told the truth as she saw it. She thought the marriage was over, and in effect she answered truthfully.

Also Net, be honest with us or at least yourself or you'll get nowhere fast AND you'll repeat this mistake in your next relationship OR this marriage if you two do give a reconciliation a shot.

See, I doubt she "flipped out" if you presented this to her in a way that was calm and not accusatory.

Heck, when I read your post the first thing I said was for you to calm down and that was from your written words...

so I cannot imagine you presented it in a way that would not trigger defensiveness in her.

Get information, Process it & reflect on your choices...Do NOT react. Keep it simple...

And tell me again, what the traits are that you want to work on most?

If there has been progress in that work, pat yourself on the back and keep it up. But if not, dig deeper.

Be brave. The real journey is an inward one. No more staring at HER or her actions.

Just MANage yourself and your personal work...stay in your sandbox and out of hers.

Lose the scorecard (b/c notice she has one too. On HER scorecard, you are way behind...and on YOURS, she's behind...)

So fyi, scorecards are worse than useless. Scorecards hurt marriages and never help them.

So, dropping that measuring scale of yours would be a 180. Learning to handle your anger and mouth would be 180s too,

(plus, you'll be happier!! So will the people around you).

Remember, you are modelling behavior for your children. Model some restraint.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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Originally Posted By: netmaster
25thepoint I understand. But 25 it is over. Honestly it is really over. Yes I react to the rage if reacting is saying please do not treat and talk to me in that manner to her.

That causes her to threaten me to call cops and everything else. It is unbelievable. Hangs the phone up on me. Accuses me of having agendas and everything else in the book


Okay let's say it is over. You still have to co-parent. Together.

Get something temporary in writing, so you have clarity and so the expectations are known & easier to meet. It'll lessen the insanity.

If you need a 3rd party to witness the drop offs, so be it. If you need a witness to conversations you two have, so be it.

At some point you'll have to choose being happy over being "right".

Later on, Once you establish a co-parenting r with some boundaries

you may establish enough of a bond that your children will finally benefit (their benefit must be THE goal)...and maybe a friendship will take hold.

From there, who knows?


I have 2 family members who divorced and remarried their exes later...years later. So it happens...


How? In both marriages (meaning with all 4 people)

they worked on themselves in their own, specific important ways..not expecting a reconciliation, but wanting to be happy again.

One stopped drinking, another learned to deal with his temper a lot better...they all learned to forgive...

So in shortthey all changed. They just wanted to be happier in their own lives and were willing to do whatever that took.

I got to that point too. No more feeling like crap. I got sick & tired of feeling sick & tired and was willing to do WHATEVER it took to get ME to a happier place.

Turns out it was all up to me the whole time.

and, fwiw my family members who reconciled after divorce, said The 2nd time around was better...

PS


(Net--know this, The calmer you are in a conflict, the more power you will have during those conflicts...remember that...)


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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Yes I probably put her on the defense. I think this whole process has strung me out beyond belief.

What would you recommend for communication tools?

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What did your C recommend to you when dealing with your anger issues?


M-43 W-40
2D - 9 and 5

Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet a new life.

RECONCILED AND WISER
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25year I wonder if she would be willing to counsel with me if I made it clear it was just for CO-PARENTING and no agenda to get back together.

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MrB still working on the counselor with my anger and control issues. He truly believes they stem from my child issues. My biggest problem is recognizing I'm starting to react. That I'm starting to trigger.

I shouldn't have called her on this matter until the next day or I should have just sent her an email. I suspect that I probably made her feel like crap in my tone.

I sent her an email tonight and she read it and said she was ok with it. My email had a lot of "I understand your feelings". I understand what you are sayings in it.

25 I do feel that my DB going forward will be for co-parenting.

Also I read both books but if i were to reread 1 again would you say the 1st or 2nd one was better.

as far as mediator goes I am going to go and try to just listen and not react. It will be a test. I am not going to make any decisions there on impulse. My W may.

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Honestly I think your W is your biggest trigger. If you know that you are going to talk to her or have any interaction with her, then calm yourself before doing so.


M-43 W-40
2D - 9 and 5

Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet a new life.

RECONCILED AND WISER
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Mr. B she is. It's hard to believe 10 days ago she as buying me pants to be honest. Crazy emotional roller coaster.

I'm starting to think we are not right for each other right now. You see my W is me. Yes that is right me. She has anger and communication issues as badly as me. We fight like 2 little kids. Cuz that is all we know. You see I'm trying to break my pattern but I need more time. I need more work. Actually I don't even know what I need to get my anger in check. Everytime I think I'm making progress this stuff happens.

you see I never detached from my W ever. Then the stress and then when my S said that tonight it completely wrecked me.

You know what it wasn't for the HOPE part of it 25. It was more angry because there are certain ways to address these issues with the kids. A certain way to sit down and explain it to them you see.

Anyways I'm going to bed. I sent her an email. She acknowledged it. Tomorrow we have a school event we have to attend together. Hoping it is civil. it should be

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You HOPE the school event is "civil"? Um, make sure it's civil.

You're a grown up man. Stop fearing that you'll lose your temper or spin out of control...

What's that say to your son about behavior and self control?

I mean, I had some "Losing control" moments of spewing, for sure...But at some point you have to KNOW you won't "lose it". If it takes meds for awhile, so be it. Just be in control of yourself.

In real life You have to be able to be in public without fears of being a jerk or turning it into a trailer trash reality TV show nightmare,

and or traumatic embarrassment for your son.

Put your son first and mean it. If you model that for your wife for long enough she'll be shamed into joining you and if she's not, so what? That's not your problem.

Her failures as a person, IF she has them, should not post in your "win" column, just as your successes in life are not in her "lose" column...it's not a contest between you two...YOU have to see that...

We attended Retrovaille which is for marriages in crisis (but decades ago we attended Essential Experience, which is for individual personal growth and I went by myself at first)

and they both have communication tools you'd benefit from. I hope you'll go. (Check out their websites)

And Don't let religion be an obstacle or excuse not to go to Retrovaille either.

Retrovaille is NOT something which drills religion into you at all. My h is not Catholic and trust me, he felt zero "pressure" and if he had, he'd have told me.

A retired priest was there IF you wanted to discuss issues with organized religion or if you had been hurt by the Church...which was brave, I thought...

At Retrovaille there were "guide" couples who have been thru hell & back and tell their stories in pieces, so you can process their hard learned lessons. Then you do your work and there's not public sharing, etc.

Even though I think counselling is excellent, if you mean weekly or twice weekly, I think you need more. You have behavioral issues and triggers you both need to handle b/c you do have a child together and something tells me there are underlying issues or anger and fear (and those are related anyhow)

in both of you that sets you off too much.


SOME couples (and individuals) benefit more from a retreat or weekend workshop b/c then the "therapy" is more efficient, you make more breakthroughs and you can break old patterns a lot faster. I know this from experience.

B/C when I went to see an IC whom I really liked, we'd sometimes really get somewhere in our sessions. I'd make a "breakthrough" or finally truly gain an insight, and sometimes I might get emotional...AND THEN,

BOOM "times' up..."

i had to go back to work (not fun for some of those insights to come right before a big meeting at work)

or pick up the kids, etc. interruptions really made it hard for me to re-group the next week and pick up where I left off, though sometimes it's nice to have the time to process it...it ALSO can mean rehearsing an answer and not being fully truthful...even to myself.


Workshops give you TIME to process the learned lessons and reinforce them. Frankly, I think that's what you will need. Plus they will model the tools for you. You'll "get" them. You'll leave with an action plan for your life and a lot of things will be covered and worked through BEFORE you leave...

Somewhere somehow you need to SEE the way others communicate w/each other, even when, especially when, they strongly disagree.

I suggest the "Essential Experience workshop" (aka "EE) b/c I've been to 3

different types of personal growth workshops ("Landmark", "est" and an "Intensive") and

EE was by far the best & deepest & most productive. Helped w/career stuff too, big time.

All things considered, grand scheme, it was also the cheapest. But I don't know where you live. It's an east coast thing and it's solution based and it changed my life. Literally it changed my life.

It's for individuals but obviously if one person goes, and changes, then the r's in that person's life changes...kind of like with DBing...

I went years ago for issues NOT directly related to my marriage, at least not in my opinion...but when h picked me up at the airport he said he could SEE changes in my look, my gait, my posture and energy level and he was right. I was happier than I'd ever been in my life.

He saw such profound changes in me from that 3.5 day workshop THAT

HE chose to go himself a few months later!! It was VERY helpful to him too...

We got a lot closer and THEN we went back, together...

(going back later is free, btw,

and there are no tricks to get you to spend more like a "next level, pay MORE" types of gimmicks where they promise something

-if you only write one more check, etc I felt that way about two of the other workshops I attended over the years. Sometimes work will pay for this by the way and EE is tax deductible. They may all be depending on your work...)

Neither my h nor I grew up seeing good communication between our parents.

As a L, I know I know HOW to communicate. I can make arguments and win cases in front of juries.

But it's different when there are emotions and pain involved. It's different when the issue is how my partner FEELS...and how I feel, and how much of it belongs to our marriage versus our childhood or work pressures, etc.

Just identifying which is which, is a start.

Like I said, getting tools for when you are NOT getting along is key. Anyone can "communicate" or give in or surrender or be uber kind...when ALL IS WELL.

It's when life throws you a curve ball, gets HARD, that we are most tested...and that's when a lot of us fail.

So get the tools...and USE THEM b/c right now from where I sit, you know some of this and yet choose not to follow the simple parts.

Do not react...do NOT react...You CAN decide not to react Net...come on.

As for which book is better, I say the latter (Divorce Remedy)

BUT only b/c it's more specific and spends less time explaining why divorce is bad.

I KNOW it's bad and undesirable. If YOU (or someone else) do NOT know that, then read them both again. Or the first one. I think Divorce Remedy is more like the 2nd edition of the book rather than a different one but like I said

if someone's not sure what they think about divorce, the first book has a ton of info about why it sukks for kids. The 2nd book has more suggestions about how NOT to get divorced...

My gut says you just don't want to change much. Or you don't want to save your marriage enough to be the one to change...first, or the most.

it strikes you as "unfair"...and I understand that. I felt since my h was the one who seemed "wrong" (and in most ways he was and I mean that as objectively as possible. It's NOT okay to want to leave your family b/c you like a JOB in a God forsaken place...and no one else could stand it there including your spouse...it's not okay)

but what do you DO with that? IOW so what if she's wrong and you are right?

You want to be right or you want to be happy?

You will find that ALL (yes I do think it's "all", literally)

of the successful couples here, begin with LBSers changing the most and for the longest and without measuring to see if the other changes 'enough"...so

lose that scorecard...and CHOOSE how YOU behave. CHOOSE what words come out of your mouth.

You can do this. You have to.

Or what? Be a single dad and get in a new r, and then HOPE you don't repeat the patterns??? "Hope" you can be civil?

"Hope" you don't lose control of yourself or

hope your new r does not trigger you spiraling?

Is that how you want to enter your future? If it were me (and it once was)

I'd want to know I'd left no stone unturned in trying to save my m and do right by my kids...AND

I'd want to know that

I had become the best spouse I could become...no way would I want ANY of this marital failure on my end, to stick.

I'd own my part but I sure as heck would not repeat it.

"Owning" it means changing it...do you get that?

You can't just say "I did that...hope I won't again"...

OR "but it's who I am"...and mean that you are selfish or dishonest but hey that's who you are...

no healthy person will want to be around that or deserves to be.

Be your best self. LEARN HOW to be that man (that's what retreats or workshops are for)

Get the discipline to become him (usually by practice in some form)

and then CHOOSE to be him.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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