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May, I just think you're acting young - not in your adult self here. Why not? What age do you feel? What happened then?

Really one of the basic rules of codependency recover, is to step back. Develop some boundaries.

May, ask for what you need. Be prepared to get an answer you don't want to hear. Be prepared for reality.

In Love Addiction, Pia Mellody has a whole section about asking our partner to meet our needs. Of course, they're allowed to say no. But if they repeatedly say no? Well, it's on us at that point.

Crickets.

The truth.

KWIM? We start to see what's real. Even if we don't want to or haven't wanted to face that.

I'm doing this with my mom right now. I stepped way back after she repeatedly behaves in ways that are childish and upsetting to me. I let her know that she hurt me and I am taking some time. I've heard nothing back from her. If I keep telling her I'm going to have to step back or requesting that I need some commitment from her when she makes a plan (follow through) and she keeps ignoring that request, well - she's my mother - I doubt I'll stop talking to her, but I will have MUCH stronger boundaries - like you said in an earlier post of yours - that detachment. Sure, it's not ideal with our spouses, family, even some friends, but if it's what's necessary to survive in the relationship, why not?

Anything else seems like we're living an illusion.

Originally Posted By: dueinMay

Man... I'm thinking I'm more f*cked up than I originally thought.

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May, I haven't posted to you before (as far as I can recall) but I have been reading your story since last Spring when I first began reading the board.

It was a year this month that I got my bomb but my H and I have been piecing for over 7 months.

My H had a PA. I always said it was my dealbreaker. In hindsight, that was easy to say because I had no idea. Yes, I imagined how it would feel but reality is never quite how we imagine it. For me, I realized I didn't stop loving my H the minute his affair was revealed. I thought my anger would take my straight to plan D. It wasn't that simple.

And piecing is definitely not simple, nor is dealing with the anger of betrayal or being the LBS.

I understand your anger. I've done far too much reading about affairs in the 7 1/2 months since I discovered my H's. Suffice it to say, what I've learned is that regardless of whether it's a PA or an EA, the fallout is the same. The journey to healing follows the same path (and it's never linear), as it does when you are dealing with a death. In many ways, it is a death. The death of who you thought your spouse was and the death of your old marriage. Sadness, depression, anger....they are all part of the journey.

My journey has not been perfect. In many ways, I felt like a failure as a DB'er because many times my anger would get the best of me. There were many days when I wanted to throw in the towel and be done with the whole darn mess. I'm sure there will be many more days like that....

I thought I was failing because sometimes I was the one who wanted to quit.

But what I realized is that I just wanted an escape from the pain. And I was angry at everything I had to deal with...

But whether I'm in my M or I leave. I can't get away from the pain. It has to be dealt with...

Just like the anger.

I wondered it I had it in me to forgive. I picked up a book on forgiveness called "How Can I Forgive You?" by Janis Abrams Spring

And I realized that there is a big difference between cheap forgiveness and genuine forgiveness. The later takes longer and the path is not always easy. I read something recently about a woman who said the journey to forgiving her H for abandoning her and cheating on her, did not happen overnight. It happened in stops and starts, and in hills and valleys. Until one day, she was there but she wasn't quite sure how she had gotten to that place. BUT she had forgiven because she started by simply making the choice to start down that path. That helped me realize that I had to stop putting pressure on myself. I needed to stop thinking I was bad or wrong or somehow not good enough because I was not there yet.

After one of my angry outbursts, I decided I would try harder to contain my anger. That expressing it was not helping us with our recovery. Weeks later, my husband asked if I was purposely holding back on expressing my anger. I said yes. And he said, "I don't want you to not be afraid to express your anger. I want you to be able to talk to me. You have every right to be angry. I made poor decisions that hurt you and our kids and if I was you I would be very angry. I know you are going to be very angry for a long time and that's okay."

And there it was...

It was okay to be angry.

You can't simply decide to stop being angry. At least I don't think you can and not have resentment pop up years down the road. But you can choose how to express that anger.

I haven't read your entire thread so I have no idea if you've ever sat down with your husband and told him exactly why you're angry.

I wrote myself an email listing everything that made me angry about my situation. Everything I felt I had lost. Just got it out on paper.

I find somedays the anger is there and other days it is not. I imagine someday in the future, I will think about what happened to us and I may always be sad for what was lost but someday maybe it will stop stinging quite so much.

And maybe I will be happier for what we have gained.

And for now, that is enough.

Good luck to you, May.

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Brilliant post Endeavor...

I wondered how you two were doing. Did you go to Retrovaille?

Previously, we had attended other workshops, or marriage encounters years ago. Some were mediocre, some had blindingly obvious "insights", or pricey new age jargon that was like word salad if you really looked...But a few were quite profound.

Retrovaille can be skimmed by couples who want to avoid the real work, but if you go there and open yourself to it, it CAN work near miracles. We got a lot out of it, and so yes, I recommend it. Of course you need two people to go. I have heard of the rare time when a spouse leaves early but no one leaves worse off.

The guiding couples at our Retrovaille retreat had been through HELL and yet they were there, together as couples really valuing their marriage. The problems they had before, made our marriage problems pale in comparison.

I kept thinking
"OMG if THEY can get thru THAT (like facing the death of a child AND bankruptcy)...then we need to STFU and cope better..."

H & I were both grateful and more hopeful about our relatively minor problems. To see couples who faced major crises like those in their lives, and were still there together, and seemed committed to their m's, really energized us.

MAY--- any chance you & H could attend Retrovaille?
Though you can find non-denominational ones, ours was Catholic but you'd not really know it. yes there was a priest physically present but he spoke a total of maybe 30 min in the whole weekend and it wasn't "Catholic" it was more about setting up private time with him IF you were upset with the Church or organized religion.
(I respected him for that).

But if the word Catholic bothers you or your h, then find a non-denominational one. Retrovaille people "get" that shoving religious views down someone's throat usually does not help m's in crisis. They're not stupid.

WHY GO NOW? B/C May, As angry as you are atm, it may help you later in calmer times to know you left no stone unturned, and that you did right by your d.


Do you recall that "Essential Experience" workshop I suggested for YOU in particular, earlier? 2 peeps from here have attended and a 3rd one is going this month. Both said they loved it, & gained clarity to make a real action plan for their lives, that they lacked before.

My bff from high school is a t, and she loved it and said it'll become part of her counselling services. (So Hey, it's tax deductible for you!)

WHY GO NOW? B/c it only takes YOU to go, and you do have stuff that is yours and yours only, which affects your m. AND

B/C I think you are ripe for a breakthrough, but you need the real life support of fair & healthy people, to make that happen.
Hence the presistent suggestion.

Plus, the need for more than one hour at a time to make the progress you want and to keep the focus on YOU and your stuff. It's more efficient for sure.

(I don't want to sound like an Amways salesperson, so I'll just finish by saying there are no magical gurus or trendy new tricks. Unlike some of the other workshops I've attended, (e.g., Landmark, est, Imgao)

the EE conductors are very well educated/qualified. They've studied everything from Carl Rogers & Carl Jung, from Virginia Satir to Maslow, from Gestalt to the behavioralists. Their structured process is nothing short of brilliant, imo.

And EE is not pricey & they don't pressure you for more money "For the next level". It's a safe supportive real life environment for you to do your work in.
I swear May, I wish I could just send you - b/c you deserve the breakthroughs you seek).

Meanwhile, you asked HOW to let go of anger or begin to forgive.


I can only say what helped me. Like you w/your h, I cognitively believed that H had wronged me and the kids and in more than one way. Here are a few things that come to mind atm, that helped me.

The first is the example I grew up with, like you have, that showed me what NOT to do.

We had neighbors where I grew up, including an Army COL and his w and 5 kids. He had been a POW in Vietnam and I assume he had some stories I would have liked to hear. I didn't get to hear them though, b/c whenever I asked about them or anything from his life, his w would interrupt us. I assumed she did this to protect him. I was wrong.

He had had an affair a few years before they moved onto our street. How did I know that, when I was just a teenager?

B/C we all knew b/c the wife made sure she "leaked" it out.


All of her children (4 girls and 1 boy) knew too. The boy is twice divorced. We dated in high school. He was handsome, smart and kind. He went to Harvard and earned big bucks. So yes I do wonder why he's had such bad luck.

ALL the d's are single now...all 4 girls are divorced or never married...May what are the odds??

The neighbor & "long suffering wife" was a Radcliff grad. She knew she had the "right" to be hurt/mad. I assume she had no role model for forgiveness.

What she didn't realize is the damage SHE was doing to her children & her life.

But from where I sat, years later, all I saw was a bitter angry woman who never let anyone admire or openly love her h. I preferred HIM to her and so did their kids...but how conflicted they must have been.

That woman never let go of the fact that he had deeply hurt her and she did NOT make an attempt to warm the bed for him to return either. She chose to stay and be miserable in her anger.

I knew as a teenager that her choice (Stay Married and Stay Mad) had to have been the worst one to make...
for her, for him, for the kids...

Bear that in mind when you contemplate your mother's example, and her and your aunt's lives -

and how you MIGHT be repeating that for your d, if you stay married AND stay angry...so

Either you stay & learn to cope and let it go, OR you leave him

and learn to cope and let it go...

see the commonality? Either way, you learn to cope better and let it go.

You do not get to hold this over his head forever, like the sword of Damacles.

You don't get to throw it in his face every time you are angry, or hit him every time a memory resurfaces in you, or when you think you "should" be angry...

You don't get to pass this on as your legacy to your d...INSTEAD

you get to break the cycle for her and for you...more later on how.

And we'll address the lying too. For now I'll pass on one comment the priest who married us, made. He said:

"Deceit is never heatlhy for a m, but neither is giving your spouse a reason to deceive by how you react to bad news. If your w dents the car and you just blast her for it, you can expect that the next time it happens she'll get it fixed and maybe never mention it to you...b/c of the way you reacted the first time OR how she expects you to react. Would she really be so wrong?"


May, knowing what NOT to do and what NOT to act like, helped me.

I think it's a start.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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Originally Posted By: gabbysmom23

The harsh truth is, that even though you feel this way, and it is justified, if you can't let it go, it will end this marriage.

You do need to decide if it is something you can let go of, or just feel get it out of your system and move on in a happier state in your M.

i think you need to give yourself time, but the rest of your M can not go on like this. YOU cannot go on like this.

Can't tell you how to work through the anger, or process it, or whatever.

Think though, if you remove yourself from H, does it go away? Or is it still there blinding you?

I hate to say it, because it does become a choice at some point how you let the anger affect you. I'm angry. Still. I just not to let it affect me and the relationships in my life.


Herein lies the problem. I am aware that it is taking me over. I'm in so much physical and emotional pain. I have a major migraines DAILY. I know I can't go on like this much longer. Mentally and physically. I'm surprised I still have teeth I've been grinding so hard.

I would love to let it go. I would. BUT HOW THE F*CK DO I DO THAT?!?! Can ANYONE answer that? Other than time? And saying "yes, I'd like to let go". What can I DO? I'm already going to counseling. I'm already on drugs. I'm *trying* to take care of myself, but honestly, just getting up, showering, and going to work is pretty remarkable at this point. I'm pretty proud of that feat on a weekday basis (weekends... that's another story).

Originally Posted By: Endeavour


I understand your anger. I've done far too much reading about affairs in the 7 1/2 months since I discovered my H's. Suffice it to say, what I've learned is that regardless of whether it's a PA or an EA, the fallout is the same. The journey to healing follows the same path (and it's never linear), as it does when you are dealing with a death. In many ways, it is a death. The death of who you thought your spouse was and the death of your old marriage. Sadness, depression, anger....they are all part of the journey.

My journey has not been perfect. In many ways, I felt like a failure as a DB'er because many times my anger would get the best of me. There were many days when I wanted to throw in the towel and be done with the whole darn mess. I'm sure there will be many more days like that....

I thought I was failing because sometimes I was the one who wanted to quit.

But what I realized is that I just wanted an escape from the pain. And I was angry at everything I had to deal with...

But whether I'm in my M or I leave. I can't get away from the pain. It has to be dealt with...

Just like the anger.

I wondered it I had it in me to forgive. I picked up a book on forgiveness called "How Can I Forgive You?" by Janis Abrams Spring

And I realized that there is a big difference between cheap forgiveness and genuine forgiveness. The later takes longer and the path is not always easy. I read something recently about a woman who said the journey to forgiving her H for abandoning her and cheating on her, did not happen overnight. It happened in stops and starts, and in hills and valleys. Until one day, she was there but she wasn't quite sure how she had gotten to that place. BUT she had forgiven because she started by simply making the choice to start down that path. That helped me realize that I had to stop putting pressure on myself. I needed to stop thinking I was bad or wrong or somehow not good enough because I was not there yet.

After one of my angry outbursts, I decided I would try harder to contain my anger. That expressing it was not helping us with our recovery. Weeks later, my husband asked if I was purposely holding back on expressing my anger. I said yes. And he said, "I don't want you to not be afraid to express your anger. I want you to be able to talk to me. You have every right to be angry. I made poor decisions that hurt you and our kids and if I was you I would be very angry. I know you are going to be very angry for a long time and that's okay."

And there it was...

It was okay to be angry.


You can't simply decide to stop being angry. At least I don't think you can and not have resentment pop up years down the road. But you can choose how to express that anger.

I haven't read your entire thread so I have no idea if you've ever sat down with your husband and told him exactly why you're angry.

I wrote myself an email listing everything that made me angry about my situation. Everything I felt I had lost. Just got it out on paper.

I find somedays the anger is there and other days it is not. I imagine someday in the future, I will think about what happened to us and I may always be sad for what was lost but someday maybe it will stop stinging quite so much.


Thank you. Oh my God, thank you. This is what I'm talking about when I said, "I'm super pissed that I can't be super pissed" I want H to be OK with me being pissed. I wish I could get a speech like that from my H saying that he knows he f*cked up and that it's ok to be angry and he wants me to get it all out. I've said it before and I'll say it again: it appears he simply cannot handle me being in a weak position. He couldn't handle it when I to have my gallbladder taken out (tried everything he could to convince me not to do the surgery), couldn't handle me being pregnant, and now cannot handle me being incapacitated by depression.

I like your analogy to death. I had told him that once. I said, "H, it's like you died. Do you not understand that? I feel like you died."

Maybe I should approach it from that aspect. I feel like there's more research on how to deal with death than on forgiveness. Maybe I just haven't been looking in the right places. I'll look at that book too.

I like the email list idea. I'm a lists person.

I'm just so tired of hurting.


I have the patience of Job.
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Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc



"Deceit is never heatlhy for a m, but neither is giving your spouse a reason to deceive by how you react to bad news. If your w dents the car and you just blast her for it, you can expect that the next time it happens she'll get it fixed and maybe never mention it to you...b/c of the way you reacted the first time OR how she expects you to react. Would she really be so wrong?"


May, knowing what NOT to do and what NOT to act like, helped me.

I think it's a start.



I like this a lot. I guess we were posting at the same time. I most definitely know what this means (and I most definitely used that principle when interacting with my mother a lot as a teen).

I really wish I could go to EE. I do. But NONE are near me geographically. Just getting there would be over 300 dollar (usually closer to 500 from what I've researched). Then the cost of a hotel. Then the cost of the workshop itself. It's a considerable expense, and given that H is already pissed off at me for my spending habits, I doubt that this would make the situation better.

I've brought up a weekend thing like Retrouvaille too, but he is less than enthusiastic. Any suggestions on how to twist his arm into it?


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You guys are giving May some great advice. Invaluable.

I think there's a big piece that's just not getting acknowledged here.

You'll glossed over it last time too.

And it came back around.

May needs to know what her husband did or didn't do. She has no idea if he had a PA. It's going to burn her up inside.

He's not owning it.

That's huge. That's a HUGE piece of this.

Endeavor - what you have is HUGE and I just don't think May's got that. Her H is not saying "go ahead, sweetie, be angry." That's Transparency that May just does not have with her H. And so how can she
a, move on
b, let go
c, forgive
when she doesn't even know what she's dealing with and it's bothering her and she tries to push it aside but it

KEEPS COMING BACK

and not only does she not have that right now, she doesn't have

acknowledgement or remorse from her H

She can give a lot of this to herself - peace, etc. But I just don't see her POOF - letting this go and moving on. It's nice, in theory, it ain't happening.

May, tell me where I'm wrong here.

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May, don't twist his arm. There is a huge power imbalance in your R.

You need to take your power back and he needs to be okay with vulnerability.

Sorry. I'm just gonna say it!

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Originally Posted By: ESN
You guys are giving May some great advice. Invaluable.

I think there's a big piece that's just not getting acknowledged here.

You'll glossed over it last time too.

And it came back around.

May needs to know what her husband did or didn't do. She has no idea if he had a PA. It's going to burn her up inside.

He's not owning it.

That's huge. That's a HUGE piece of this.

Endeavor - what you have is HUGE and I just don't think May's got that. Her H is not saying "go ahead, sweetie, be angry." That's Transparency that May just does not have with her H. And so how can she
a, move on
b, let go
c, forgive
when she doesn't even know what she's dealing with and it's bothering her and she tries to push it aside but it

KEEPS COMING BACK

and not only does she not have that right now, she doesn't have

acknowledgement or remorse from her H

She can give a lot of this to herself - peace, etc. But I just don't see her POOF - letting this go and moving on. It's nice, in theory, it ain't happening.

May, tell me where I'm wrong here.


100% correct on that. A lot of this would be better if he would just come clean and let me be at peace. At one point he had taken responsibility, but that was when I did not know more of the truth. Now that I know more of the truth, all of the sudden it's not his fault anymore. And I'm not ok with that.


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Originally Posted By: ESN
May, don't twist his arm. There is a huge power imbalance in your R.

You need to take your power back and he needs to be okay with vulnerability.

Sorry. I'm just gonna say it!


Sorry, I meant to be kinda smarta$$ with that (although, truly, I'd like to go). Clearly he's gonna do what he wants to do. And at this moment, what he wants is not to bend over backwards to make me happy.


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re EE there is no housing cost...but I thought you were on the east coast...anyhow

as for Retrovaille, if you can get him there, it'll help. No one is "harmed" by it. And I am not so sure he would not go. There's no blasting of the spouse. If he knows it is for "better communication" maybe he wont' feel so pressured or on the spot.

Or is it you wanting him to be on the spot? I'm sincerely asking May...

And as far as DETERMINING whether there was a PA, how are you going to KNOW?

If it's over (and I feel fairly confident nothing is going on now)

then you think he'll fess up now when he knows 1) how YOU react (which you learned from your mom)?

And

2) when you keep saying it's a deal breaker,

(b/c your dad did it to your mom...and gee, no baggage there...)

Geez, I doubt I'd fess up.

So you can hire a forensic accountant or a PI I guess...is that what you want to do with your energy?

You have to decide that maybe you are NOT going to "KNOW", and if that is the case are you going to end the m?

What is it he's supposed to feel bad about now, IF the EA he admitted to having is over, and he admitted it and DID apologize...is it that it wasn't enough for you or

you want it to happen again? I mean you want him to keep apologizing?

OR to seem to suffer more?

You already know he's depressed.

Why can't you believe some of that is related to his remorse over the past year?

Some men, my h included, think ONE apology for a wrong is totally sufficient if it's sincere.

Besides, maybe your h feels you withdrawing love/affection from him, which makes him less motivated to reach out and get zapped again, I guess.

Thing that keeps coming up for me is his family crap.

They don't forgive either and your family doesn't...so why would he expect to be able to be honest with you if he's made a mistake?-

MAYBE-

If he never saw forgiveness from you, he won't believe you can give it or that he can get it...


and that

makes almost all conflicts a lot harder to resolve, b/c being wrong is pretty much a fatal blow to the relationship

May, thoughts?


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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