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Eryam Offline OP
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Lots of good posts. I'm sure I will miss responding to someone or something, so if I leave a stone unturned, I apologize. Just lemme know.

KD, I'm actually pretty crappy when it comes to helping client with anger. Well... let me rephrase... I think I'm good with helping people with logical fallacies and helping arguing against their irrational thoughts (I'm really REBT/CBT oriented when it comes to talk therapy). But for people who have like, genuinely super sh!tty things happen to them, like a rape, or a death, I'm not that great. I was pigeon-holed into the personality disordered people who just chronically felt angry.

So that was a long winded way to say, "I don't know what I would tell a client in this situation".

And 25, thank you for doing your L thing and reminding me that, no, I don't have any hardcore evidence that there was a PA (didn't find them in bed, or any hotel bills with both their names on them or anything). I have a lot of circumstantial BS. Which yes, make things look really, really bad. But no, no hard evidence, and both he and OW say nothing physical happened (other than the drunk kiss and the inappropriate internet convos). So yeah, if this were brought to trial, I doubt I would have a leg to stand on.

And yes, I will admit, if I were to leave, leaving him for a PA is a lot stronger than leaving him because he "ruined" my pregnancy. And based on my belief that there are very few valid reasons to D (other than, in my opinion, a PA and abuse), yeah, if I were to leave, I'd need a pretty damn good reason.

So while I'm currently really miserable, unless one of those two criteria are met, I will not ask for a D.

And ESN, it's not like I don't want to get over it. I want to get over the anger. But it's taking me a while. Really, I was feeling a lot better about the whole ruined pregnancy thing until I found those chats (and oh my God it made me so angry to see he was having one RIGHT IN FRONT of me as I'm lying in the hospital bed with our newborn), but right now I'm angry about the lying. I understand that the EA is over and done with, but he perpetuated the lie. And supposedly he's come clean, but I'll never really know for sure.

But yes, if he's had a PA, I want to D him. Because I know there are still times that I look at my dad and think, "you are one of the most moral people I've ever met, so how could you possibly have done that to our family?" He's also one of the most emotionally retarded people I've ever met. But that's another tangent....

Which goes back to what 25 was saying about my own childhood issues. Yes, my mind is clouded on this subject. I'm probably more paranoid about this than your average person given my personal history. Oh, I remember how angry it made me last spring when H said, "nothing is going on! She has a boyfriend!" and I said, "that doesn't f-ing matter! My dad had an A with a woman who was MARRIED... who lived in ANOTHER COUNTRY!!" Then the look of realization came over H's face.

I don't know what I can or cannot get past with the given information. If nothing else comes to light, I believe I can eventually get past it. If I find more lies....

Then I just don't know....

So, Endeavor, I don't know if it's my gut or my fear. Clearly the fear is very real and very present.

Last night was a really rough night. H left for LA. D had been grouchy all day (poor thing sprouted 4 teeth last weekend and they're still pushing through). And then I was going over my current draft of my thesis and realized it's complete and total crap. I hate it. I sent an email to my mentor telling her I thought it was crap and would not be surprised if she's as disappointed in it as I am. We recently made some changes and if stick to the changes, I would have to scrap a lot of the work I've already put into it and do a bunch of new writing. Oh, and if I haven't shown significant progress by the end of the semester, they will probably kick me out of the program (I was supposed to graduate in August of 2009).

So I'm a little stressed.

H was considerate enough to call me tonight, even for a few minutes. I texted periodically with him this morning. I brought up Retrouvaille. I inquired for more information for the one in my area and sent the link to H. He said he didn't want to talk in front of people, but I told him I didn't think it necessarily worked like that. I also assured him it's not overly religious. He said he might go, but wanted to know more about it first. Any suggestions for what I can tell him or should I just wait for the local people to contact me? If we went, it wouldn't be until late July (I think we JUST missed one).

I think seeing as H is out of town until Friday morning, I'll make that list of questions. Endeavor, what were some of the questions that you asked, if you don't mind me being nosy? I have SO many it's a little overwhelming. I know from being a T that you have to be careful how you ask questions especially questions that start with "why". And I feel that's the majority of my questions currently. Why her? Why then? Why did you lie? Why did you hide? Why didn't you talk to me? Why, why, why?

When H called, as we were about to hang up, I said (without thinking) "ok, have a good night, I love you"

This was the first time I've said that to him in probably 2 weeks. It was just instinctual.

But without hesitation he said, "I love you too. Meow"

(Don't ask me why he meows. It's something he's always done. It's almost his equivalent of I love you. At the beginning of the relationship he did it, and I reciprocated, and he was so happy, and it's just stuck. He also pushed my nose about a month into dating, and I said "meeep!". I still do that, almost 9 years later. My D has started doing it to me and thinks it's hilarious.)

I booked a local park for D's birthday today. May 19th. I can't believe it's less than a month away. And then 2 weeks later, I'll be out for summer break.

Lord knows I need the break.


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ESN Offline
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Endeavor, good earlier post. And I think what you said about the remorse is key. I was trying to recall that earlier.

When I found out my ex-bf was having an EA and also regularly looking at porn (and we were sexually estranged, though I was not happy about it), he was anything but remorseful. He was pretty damn proud - like he'd found a way to hurt me. No idea why, but I read at the time that this was key - in an EA/PA for the offended to be able to forgive. Of course, you can forgive without it, but May's sitch is so murky - he's denying stuff, they're not talking about it, etc.

I think more what I meant earlier was the likelihood of her forgetting about it and letting it go seemed slim since there were so many questions left unanswered, and that it seemed at the very least, she wanted answers, but b/c she didn't I didn't see that as her letting go - does that make sense?

You had both answers *and* remorse, and now an understanding H. Not that that makes it any easier, but I trust that would make it much more possible for May.

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Originally Posted By: ESN
Endeavor, good earlier post. And I think what you said about the remorse is key. I was trying to recall that earlier.

When I found out my ex-bf--- in an EA/PA for the offended to be able to forgive. Of course, you can forgive without it, but May's sitch is so murky - he's denying stuff, they're not talking about it, etc.

Sure it's murky. But He did not deny any type of r before. They DID talk about it and I'd bet anything that in his mind, they had put it to rest & resolved it. And He did feel remorse and made gestures to show it. Go back to the November post to read the tremendous amount of hope in their situation then.

The ONLY thing that has changed is that she recently discovered more about THAT PERIOD OF TIME, which he did not completely disclose to her (past lies about a past event) and which still does not prove there was more physically.

Given how he thinks she feels about affairs, (which she says is an absolute dealbreaker) I cannot imagine him fessing up to a physical affair IF there was one...so there is no "knowing" that is likely in this situation ever.
I'm surprised he even admitted to kissing b/c he knows they'd be done forever for a full blown A.

He does not want that

but he also does not want to be in the doghouse forever for something from the past...and then lying about the past that is over, b/c he fears her present day anger.....I don't find that impossible to comprehend-given the expected penalty.



I think more what I meant earlier was the likelihood of her forgetting about it and letting it go

Extremely unlikely. Did someone suggest she "forget" it? I didn't see that anywhere.

As for letting go, when I say to let it go, I mean that pain and anger are not things to hold onto for life.

May, think about this.

Holding onto the pain and anger of your father's betrayal is what your mother and aunt did, which is a cycle you said you don't want to repeat.


Please take into consideration the theoretical possibility that you are creating some of this very thing...and that you have a daughter too.

I sense a lot of your past is creeping up on you NOW

and that's not your h's stuff; it's yours.

Learn from the women you witnessed who did not handle the pain/anger of betrayal in a healthy way.

ESN, I'm not sure if you are saying anger is something to hang onto

OR if you think some of us are telling May to Repress it, but I don't believe in either of those actions.

MAY,

what you saw/felt as a child must have been terrible for you. I cannot imagine how hard it would be to trust ANY man, let alone choosing to trust again when he hurt you at a vulnerable point.

Though in truth, Most of us have had "trust" issues in some form.

How many people do you know who grew up in the Waltons family? (If I'm dating myself with that reference, try "Brady Bunch" or Happy Days or whatever "NORMAL Family" TV myth you were raised with and dreamed of)

ANYHOW When I first read your story I just wanted to slap your h's face off and help you through a maritally fatal situation. So I probed about what you saw in this man and

YOU said that before the pregnancy, and during your dating years and marriage, you two had some gooooood history. You had FUN. You described his good qualities & your previous dating/marriage, and I believed you. I still do.

You don't strike me as someone who was looking at him with rose colored glasses. You dated long enough and were married and you certainly were ready to be a mother, and at the very least he went along with it. The pregnancy was a planned event and he participated... cool


During the pregnancy, something sad, scary and ill - happened to him when you began to show

b/c it meant a major, irrevocable change in his life was coming.

(I don't know if THAT is why he changed, but it happens to be true).

You also think he's depressed. Agreed...

Since you've posted more about HIS family of origin lately, it's easier to see where the "sad, scary & ill" part came from.


Please remember that what you do with this episode in your life, is something you can either model for your d as a bittersweet crucial life lesson,

or hide it from her b/c you chose to react poorly, perhaps irrationally or from anger, due to a wounded ego that might partly have been a wound left over from your father, and not your h's...

You're a T. You think People can change or not? You must know they do, b/c your h sure did...


seemed slim since there were so many questions left unanswered, and that it seemed at the very least, she wanted answers, but b/c she didn't I didn't see that as her letting go - does that make sense?

Well no, I don't know what you mean here^^^.

But I strongly believe that there are situations in which the questions-

1) have no answers, or no answers that are knowable;

2) have answers that won't be revealed for awhile - but should not prevent forward movement;

4) have answers that no longer matter, for one of many reasons.

For instance, I still cannot explain WHY my h did or said a lot of the things he did and said 6 years ago. HE cannot explain large chunks.

He genuinely does not recall some of them and I believe him. And there are events he recalls very differently than me. And for some of the events, he has no answer but "I'm sorry"

which I think means he was selfish and is now ashamed...but I am not positive that is the meaning and he might not be positive either. I don't care.

I wasted way too much time as it was, on seeking answers that were not available or helpful or useful.

If I were to have waited "for THE answers" before allowing for a recon, I'd have died waiting and we'd have stayed back there in neutral, trying to see things identically. Trying to determine the proper % of blame to assign...

Endeavor and her h are seeking SOME answers now, together

and working on a future with a new type of m, that may not resemble their old one at all.


May, there are 2 other points I really want to make here. Hope this analogy & version of mine helps.


As you know, there are many bad childhood events to heal from, that are not part of a marriage (E.g., Maybe having things stolen a lot as a kid can screw you up, but it MIGHT not hurt a marriage, per se).

Other childhood events, unfortunately, do/ CAN creep into the marriage even where it does not really belong.

For instance, childhood Sex abuse, even if you got t for it, could still haunt your present day sex life, & it could ruin a marriage.

AND it might not be your h's fault at all even if he made a foreplay mistake...right?

By analogy here, in this scenario, your h did make a terrible mistake with a co-worker while he was away from home travelling. He gave into temptation and at least behaved inappropriately & kissed.

Also, This happened while you were pregnant, which triggered some weird unexpected negatives in HIM, that were not helpful to the marriage and which made YOU feel that much more vulnerable.

In sum, HE had an issue from childhood mainfest in a very unexpected way during the pregnancy, (which I think contributed to his behavior)

AND THEN

YOU had unresolved issues of your childhood, complicate the crap out of handling this. When you were at your most vulnerable, i.e., becoming a mother (and becoming your mother...??)

Hence the anger you yourself feared would ruin things. You even said that before you learned for sure of any OW involvement.

To me, that part DOES NOT fairly belong your h or your marriage, but belongs to your father and your mother's marriage.


You had both answers *and* remorse, and now an understanding H. Not that that makes it any easier, but I trust that would make it much more possible for May.


No doubt it would make it way way easier. Clearly. But it's not always shown in the same way, or felt the same or expressed the same AND we're not even sure there was the same "crime" committed...

Also in Endeavor's case there was the double edged sword of having a truly wacky OW. It's bad news b/c she's potentially dangerous in several ways AND public...

but the "good news" is that truly Wacky OW's are no threat to their marriage, per se, when they are batchit crazy,

I doubt Endeavor's h "struggled" with the dilemma of wanting to leave his family for the star of "Fatal Attraction" in Nutsville.

That could have made Endeavor's choice harder, b/c it is infuriating to see the dangerous side, but she let it make it clearer, MAYBE b/c she didn't feel threatened by OW...I don't know, not sure it matters here.

(OTOH would it really be better if OW looked like Catherine Zeta Jones, had the brains of Condolezza Rice and earned Angelina Jolie film demands? I mean, would ANY of us feel great competing with that?)

Finally May, along with whatever Endeavor says about it, (do you live near the Big D, Endeavor?)

Retrovaille will NOT hit him over the head with religion (l posted somewhere about this and forgive me if it was to you and I'm repeating...)

ours was nominally Catholic and but for the visible presence of a priest in the background, who spoke maybe 30 min the whole weekend...I just didn't feel that way. Does your h hate ALL religions or just Catholicism? Does the word "God" turn him off? They do discuss spiritual connections in a marriage.

There is NO PUBLIC disclosure.

Only the couples leading it, or guiding it with their stories talk in public (their stories are inspiring and so valuable they are worth hearing even if your spouse did nothing BUT hear them...very moving)

Oh--- yes You can ask questions. But otherwise, I never heard anyone there as a couple, share anything in public.

The guiding couples will share something or their story or a topic, and then propose an exercise and then You do that stuff on your own, or together as a couple in privacy. Then you re=group and they do it again. They don't ask you to share what you "just learned"...

in that sense it's like no other workshop I've attended b/c of the privacy aspects.

I liked that in some ways b/c there was no weird social issue or peer competition or tension.

Some couples had more anger visible in how they left a room and some seemed to be joking more together but mostly I felt like we were "alone" with the guiding couples and us.

I say get him to go if you can do it within reason. Once there, he can choose to do the work or not

But if he does do the work, then who cares why he went originally?


And the follow up will keep the momemtum going. We felt a small miracle had happend that weekend, which got us to a place we had not been since the workshop we went to a decade earlier.

The last day began & I already felt good, renewed, saw a few things from h's eyes in a new way, and took in the feelings he had about his mother's cancer which I had not realized before...

THEN the last morning came and we had an exercise and returned to the room to discuss it.

May, I do want to tell you all about it and I could describe it =

but I might build up your expectations too much

OR I might be betraying my h in a way, too. He really opened up.

So let me just say that the ONE hour talk that morning, was the most important meaningful connecting hour, of the previous 4 years of our marriage crisis.

I felt he really truly "got it". And as for me,

The forgiveness I thought I had already given, was then truly completed.

May,

I pray you and your h heal from the wounds of your childhoods, not letting them haunt your marriage/life today...and I pray that

you can break the cycle your parents passed on, (unintentionally, I know )

and that you leave a legacy of redemption and forgiveness and commitment, to your d. Whatever form that takes...

In sum, I believe in the power of redemption and forgiveness.

And As Endeavor pointed out, if we don't believe that people can change it's pointless to be here.
We are all rooting for you.

((( )))


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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Originally Posted By: Endeavour
Originally Posted By: ESN
Right. This is what I've been saying all along.

I'm suspecting she can't get past it. So why are we all telling her she should "let go"?

Clearly she's not letting go. But we'll keep trying to talk her out of it ...

For the sake of the marriage...

Which I don't get.

Especially in light of the fact that she seems to want a reason to leave him.


ESN, no one is trying to talk May out of anything nor into anything. We are telling her to step back, breath and consider her choices before making any decisions in the heat of the moment.

We are sharing our experiences because that's what we all do on this forum. We share, we learn and hopefully we grow.

In the end, May will do what is best for her and that's all any of us want.

If she wants to leave him, she will.

When I discovered my H's PA, I recall that 25 posted that if I couldn't get past it, she would not judge, that it was okay because not everyone can.

As I said, I'm sure not 100% convinced I can but I'm taking the advice I've learned here on DB as well, as information I've learned from reading other sources, and I'm doing my best to not rush into any decision I may later regret.

I'm letting May know what worked for me. If it doesn't work for her, I am not dependant on the outcome.

When I first read her story, I thought her H was a jerk. I mean who leaves a pregnant woman?! There's got to be some man code against that, right? But we don't know who he is now. We don't live with him.

People change.

And if they don't....then why are any of us here?


that's another one of your posts I will be quoting (and of course attributing)
endeavor.

ESN you are reading our responses in a very dfferent way than I am.
No one told her to let it go for the sake of the marriage??...

that really misses the main point of my message..but no matter and never mind b/c I hope my last one cleared it up for you.

Endeavor I hope your kids are well (I'll check if you have your thread back so we don't hijack).

But some great insights, great personal work. Nice motivator for me to get back on my track and monitor MY results.

I've been DBing with my youngest d, "checking in" to see if I'm verbalizing enough appreciation for the chores she does.

Apparently words of affirmation and hugs are her LLs...

"DB: it's not just for marriage anymore."
cool


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,511
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So May-

Your h is IN Los Angeles...and I am near that city...hmmm since I'm here anyhow...

any requests?

cool


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 352
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Eryam Offline OP
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I'm so ready to be off the emotional rollercoaster.

I was doing really well yesterday and through most of today until about 2 hours ago. The weather is such a trigger for me, and it happened during the kids' recess. I just started seeing all those lines in the chats I found and thinking of what little evidence I did have. And it took everything in me not to lose it right there.

I realized I was rocking back and forth like a mental institution patient.

Should you never contact the OW, ever? Even if it seems like they're willing to talk? Even if H is ok with it?


I have the patience of Job.
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Originally Posted By: dueinMay

And ESN, it's not like I don't want to get over it. I want to get over the anger. But it's taking me a while. Really, I was feeling a lot better about the whole ruined pregnancy thing until I found those chats (and oh my God it made me so angry to see he was having one RIGHT IN FRONT of me as I'm lying in the hospital bed with our newborn), but right now I'm angry about the lying. I understand that the EA is over and done with, but he perpetuated the lie. And supposedly he's come clean, but I'll never really know for sure.


It's going to take you awhile to get over that anger, May. But just because we feel angry, doesn't mean we have to give into it. Instead, you can chose to distract yourself. Sometimes when my anger starts simmering, I will ask my husband for a hug, ask him to spend some time with me or ML. If I focus on our positive interactions, I'm able to let my anger go for awhile. Yes, it will pop back up when I'm triggered and I'll think, "How could he do this to me?!" But you control your mind, right?

I can be angry and miserable OR I can chose to do something loving and fun with my H instead of lashing out. Most of the time, good feelings will follow. Is it 100% foolproof? Nope.

But replacing bad feelings and memories with happy memories is a good place to start.

By the way, that doesn't mean sweeping issues under the carpet OR not dealing with them. I'm only referring to something that is over and done with. In the past. Not new issues or something hurtful that is ongoing.

It takes practice and believe me sometimes I still want to beat him down with a bag of oranges. crazy I am not the perfect DB'er. I get off track sometimes. Less now, but definitely often in the first months after D-day. Be patient with yourself.

I think one of the keys for me getting to piecing so fast was because (yes, ex-ow was an idiot so there wasn't much competition there), but I was already detached from my M on D-day. I don't know if you've ever read my sitch but I was sort of the WAS first. I even gave my H the ILYBINILWY speech. I had essentially checked out of my M so I was already on the DB path, as far as not begging, pleading or crying on bomb day. That's why I know this stuff works. I've seen it work in my life. Once, I came here, even though some of it seemed counter-intuitive, I followed the advice to a T. Well, most of the time...I tried at least.

What I'm trying to say is that our emotions can often lead us astray. If we can take the emotions out of sitch for awhile, the results will be different.

I'm angry but what does showing it every time I feel it get me? Distance. More anger. My H feels guilty. I know he also feels ashamed, embarrassed and broken. Those must be an awful feelings too. I wouldn't want to be in his shoes any more than mine.

If you get to piecing and the M is the same, what's the point? We have to do things differently or we'll end up in the same spot 2 years or 5 years or 10 years from now.

Now that would make me really angry!



Originally Posted By: dueinMay
So, Endeavor, I don't know if it's my gut or my fear. Clearly the fear is very real and very present.


I think that's why it's hard to know if your gut is giving you the truth OR if you're fear is making you BELIEVE it's the truth. It's a little hard to trust your gut given your past history. Self-fulfilling prophecies and all that.

If you need to know to move forward, as I said above, you're going to have to make it safe for him to do so BUT it's not ever going to feel safe for him if you're going to end the M if he admits he had a PA. So you either believe him at this point, or you don't.

I'd want to know too so I understand your feelings on this issue. I asked my H if there were any more A's in his past. I said that if he truly loved and respected me, to please give me the truth about my life. I said without the truth there would always be a wall between us. I told him that I needed complete truth and honesty to move forward. I can only trust that he complied because I can't go back in time or read his mind.

I'm not sure there's any middle ground here because you seem to believe there was a PA but he's insisting that there was not. Short of giving the man a polygraph, I don't know what else you can do, aside from giving him the truth and honesty speech I gave my H and hoping for the best. Or just deciding that you have no choice but to believe him.

Originally Posted By: dueinMay
I brought up Retrouvaille. I inquired for more information for the one in my area and sent the link to H. He said he didn't want to talk in front of people, but I told him I didn't think it necessarily worked like that. I also assured him it's not overly religious. He said he might go, but wanted to know more about it first. Any suggestions for what I can tell him or should I just wait for the local people to contact me?


There is no talking in front of the group. You just listen to the stories of the presenting couples. All of the talking you will do will be with each other in the privacy of your hotel room. As for the religious aspect, it is minimal. The priest who attended our weekend was very liberal, told a lot of very funny jokes and was very easy-going. My H and I had lunch with him one afternoon during the weekend and found him to be a very interesting, funny and intelligent man. My H is not religious in the least but he thought Retrovaille was an excellent program and he was not bothered in the least by the minimal religious aspects.

Also, as I mentioned 25's post helped (will try to find the one I'm referring to) but on D-day my H was pretty desperate to save the M. I was so shell-shocked that if he hadn't taken the reins, I don't know if we would have made our weekend as it was about 5 weeks after D-day. But H scrambled to get us registered pretty quickly. Keep in mind though, this is the same man that was acting like a huge jerk and a vacillating emotionally unstable wingnut for months and only days prior so convincing your H now should be a cake-walk.

Originally Posted By: dueinMay
Endeavor, what were some of the questions that you asked, if you don't mind me being nosy? I have SO many it's a little overwhelming. I know from being a T that you have to be careful how you ask questions especially questions that start with "why". And I feel that's the majority of my questions currently. Why her? Why then? Why did you lie? Why did you hide? Why didn't you talk to me? Why, why, why?



I got a lot of questions from the book, "Not Just Friends" and from other sources online, books, etc.

The key ones for me were:


What did you say to yourself that gave you permission to get involved? What led to the affair? How did you feel about me before the A? During?
Did you feel guilty?
How could it go on so long if you knew it was wrong?
What did you share about us? What did you talk about?
What did you tell ow to make her believe it was okay to get involved with you? Did she even care that you were married or hesitate to get involved?
What did she do for you that I didn't? What emotional needs did she meet?
What did you like about her? Dislike about her?
What did you like about yourself in the affair? How were you different?
Were your feelings for her real?
When did you know it was over?
Did you blame me for your A?
Why would you never have an A again? What did you learn?
Do you have strong boundaries around women?

Keep in mind these questions were not asked all at once but spread over months. We would talk about the A, but we also would have bonding time during which the A was off-limits.

Some books recommend talking about the betrayal until it becomes an non-issue. It's all talked out and then you put it behind you. Others recommend asking all the questions you have in one or two sessions and then NEVER speaking of it again. I felt too much pressure by the one or two session thing because I could only think of a question here and there. A week would go by and another question would pop up. Sometimes I'd wait until I had a few written down before I would ask to talk about it, or I'd sit on the question for a few days and then decide it wasn't that important after all.

I did not ask questions that would trigger me. Like what kind of car did she drive, her personal style, what restaurants they went to, etc. For instance, I don't need to think of the fool and possibly drive off the road every time I see the kind of car she drives on the highway.

Hope that helps. An EA or whatever he had with that foolish woman is less involved than what I'm dealing with...But I do know from reading, that betrayal in an M is betrayal. And it's going to take sometime to rebuild the trust. Sadly, trust takes years to earn and seconds to destroy.

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Originally Posted By: dueinMay
I'm so ready to be off the emotional rollercoaster.

I was doing really well yesterday and through most of today until about 2 hours ago. The weather is such a trigger for me, and it happened during the kids' recess. I just started seeing all those lines in the chats I found and thinking of what little evidence I did have. And it took everything in me not to lose it right there.

I realized I was rocking back and forth like a mental institution patient.

Should you never contact the OW, ever? Even if it seems like they're willing to talk? Even if H is ok with it?


Do you really think you're going to get the truth from a liar and a cheat OR the kind of woman who would get involved, flirt, etc... with a married man whose wife is pregnant?

I think we all know the answer to that one.

I did contact the ex-ow in my sitch...

But only after she started harassing me via email by sending me articles on what to do if your spouse is in love with someone else, cheating, children and divorce, confidence, weight loss (hilarious considering I'm thin and she's not).

So then I sent her one very charming email that put her in her place and basically called her out on her immature childish behaviour. My husband said that he's sure after reading that e-mail, she felt like the complete loser that she is...

Then we followed up with a Cease and Desist letter. Case closed. Haven't heard from her since.

But opening a dialogue with an ow and expecting the truth? Highly unlikely in my opinion, May.

And she just may say some things that will enrage you. Words you will never be able to forget. Don't give her that power.

No contact is for the faithful spouse too.

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Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc


I doubt Endeavor's h "struggled" with the dilemma of wanting to leave his family for the star of "Fatal Attraction" in Nutsville.


That made me laugh out loud.

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
That could have made Endeavor's choice harder, b/c it is infuriating to see the dangerous side, but she let it make it clearer, MAYBE b/c she didn't feel threatened by OW...I don't know, not sure it matters here.


No, definitely not threatened. I mean how embarrassing would it have been for him to wake up one morning and realized he left a sane woman with a good head on her shoulders (relatively) for a needy, desperate, clingy "I can't survive without you" bunny boiler?

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
(OTOH would it really be better if OW looked like Catherine Zeta Jones, had the brains of Condolezza Rice and earned Angelina Jolie film demands? I mean, would ANY of us feel great competing with that?)


Okay, I admit, the fact that ow was less attractive was a bit of an insult. Then pair that with the batchit crazy behaviour, and think I said, "I was so bad that you had to take up with that?!" BUT in H's defence (well, sort of), she didn't go truly off her rocker (although there were previous signs) until he tried to dump her after bombing me. That said, I was more angry about the crazy part because if she had let him go, we could have started working on our M right away.

Anyway, a bit of a t/j so back on track....

But as we know, affairs are not about looks because the WS often affairs down. It's about how ow/om makes them feel. H knew ex-ow was less attractive in every way but made him feel wanted and I did not. Of course now, that just seems stupid to him but affairs are not really all that rational in the first place.

And most affairs crash and burn in less than two years because they are relationships built on lies and deceit. And selfishness and thoughtlessness. Who wants an R that's foundation was built on the pain of others? I think that's more key than whether the ow is attractive or crazy.

And thankfully H got that...(the above was something I got from what he said during one of our A talks and one of many reasons why he wanted the heck out of the A).

And obviously May's H got that his EA had no future either and that's why it ended.

Some people make stupid selfish decisions when they're depressed or confused or scared. The key is to learn from the past and make sure we do everything within OUR power to not repeat those bad decisions in the future.

That responsibility goes both ways. My H takes responsibility for the poor way he handled his anger, rejection and hurt. And I take responsibility for the poor ways in which I expressed my anger and insecurities, which resulted in me rejecting him and wanting out of the M, even prior to his A. We both handled things badly.

The irony is that I am not at the place of being able to say I have forgiven my H yet, but I can honestly say, I would bet money that he would never cheat on me again.

I see who stands before me now.

And that's what counts, May. Who is he now? And is he trying to be a better man?

You guys are still so young and marriage is hard. There are ups and downs and crisis points in every M. If you can get through this now, and truly learn from it, you're going to save yourself a lot of heartache in the future.

I recall a brief conversation I had with a woman in the Retrovaille post sessions who is around the same age and my H and I (early 40's). I was chatting with her during the break and my H with her H. She sort of stopped mid-way during our conversation with tears on her eyes and said, "I wish we would have done this years ago." I said, "Us too." She replied, "It would have saved my H and I a lot of heartbreak." I said, "I know. Us too." That was all we needed to say. There was a sense of knowing between us. I don't know their story. I never asked and no one ever shared but I got the sense it had been bad but they're still together, and they looked happy by the end of the sessions.

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Finally May, along with whatever Endeavor says about it, (do you live near the Big D, Endeavor?)

I had to Google the Big D to even know what it meant so no. Closer to you geographically than to May. The way I spell Endeavour sort of gives you a clue too.


[quote=25yearsmlc]May,

I pray you and your h heal from the wounds of your childhoods, not letting them haunt your marriage/life today...and I pray that

you can break the cycle your parents passed on, (unintentionally, I know )


^^^^^
See this is key because whatever R or M you are in, this stuff is going to come up.

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I messed up the quotes above....trying again.
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Finally May, along with whatever Endeavor says about it, (do you live near the Big D, Endeavor?)


I had to Google the Big D to even know what it meant so no. Closer to you geographically than to May. The way I spell Endeavour sort of gives you a clue too.


Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
May,

I pray you and your h heal from the wounds of your childhoods, not letting them haunt your marriage/life today...and I pray that

you can break the cycle your parents passed on, (unintentionally, I know )


^^^^^
See this is key because whatever R or M you are in, this stuff is going to come up.

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