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I would ask him to go to Retrovaille

b/c it cannot hurt, it can help a lot, and you want to leave no stone unturned

and this isn't about a power struggle.

It's about getting tools for repairing a damaged marriage, which you both need.

Doesn't matter to me why he goes, what matters is what he learns...


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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Sweetie, now we're getting somewhere. Whether anyone here thinks this is okay or that you should give up or not. This is reality. This is the truth. And it's good to acknowledge it.

B/c what did change - as 25 keeps asking - from before to now is that you found [censored] on his computer.

You want to know more. Whether it's your inner child or whatever, I see this drive in your and I see you're not going to be satisfied until you have some evidence or truth or acknowledgement - and right now you're in a delusion.

Again, you can "let go"

But this is really where it comes down to being in your own power and trusting you. What do you need? Want? Those are questions that you have to be able to address here.

You may "Want" to let go, but do you need him to acknowledge something in order to move on?

Honor your feelings, May. They are your inner wisdom trying to guide you. You're trying to push them away with meds and all kinds of numbing or whatever - anger/rage - but see that they are here to alert you of something.

If he did have a PA. You know. It's on the table. and you have a choice. You have a choice now - you don't HAVE TO KNOW. But I think I see that you want to be with something known, and are uncomfortable with that unknown and it's going to keep playing out -

Again, not what people are telling you to do - but I don't see you doing it. So why keep rehashing?



Originally Posted By: dueinMay
Originally Posted By: ESN
You guys are giving May some great advice. Invaluable.

I think there's a big piece that's just not getting acknowledged here.

You'll glossed over it last time too.

And it came back around.

May needs to know what her husband did or didn't do. She has no idea if he had a PA. It's going to burn her up inside.

He's not owning it.

That's huge. That's a HUGE piece of this.

Endeavor - what you have is HUGE and I just don't think May's got that. Her H is not saying "go ahead, sweetie, be angry." That's Transparency that May just does not have with her H. And so how can she
a, move on
b, let go
c, forgive
when she doesn't even know what she's dealing with and it's bothering her and she tries to push it aside but it

KEEPS COMING BACK

and not only does she not have that right now, she doesn't have

acknowledgement or remorse from her H

She can give a lot of this to herself - peace, etc. But I just don't see her POOF - letting this go and moving on. It's nice, in theory, it ain't happening.

May, tell me where I'm wrong here.


100% correct on that. A lot of this would be better if he would just come clean and let me be at peace. At one point he had taken responsibility, but that was when I did not know more of the truth. Now that I know more of the truth, all of the sudden it's not his fault anymore. And I'm not ok with that.

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P.S. I agree with 25, but think about what you want to see happen - find out more? Knowing he may not admit? Leave the M?

Either way is fine with me! Meaning, I don't have an agenda. If you think you should leave the M, I'm all for it. You need to trust you -

I don't think DBing is about staying and pretending ...

You got a big gut thing going on here. Get still, May. Ask yourself what you think really happened? You probably already know. Even if your H isn't going to be honest. It may not be the answer you think - or it might. But listen to your own wisdom.

And then figure out what baby step you need to take next.

I think doing little things is going to help address the anger, empower you, and help you process your emotions.

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Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Brilliant post Endeavor...

I wondered how you two were doing. Did you go to Retrovaille?




Thank you, 25. I also hear your words in my ear often, "Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy?" Truthfully, I'd like to be both but I'm going with happy. wink

And yes, we did attend Retrovaille, as well as all the post sessions which were less than a 10 minute drive from our house. Hello, Universe! We have been too busy to attend the monthly potlucks (date night for us) but we have plans to attend in the future as it would be wonderful to see the couples and presenters from our weekend again. I think I did post on our Retrovaille experience sometime last year....not entirely sure though.

Anyway, May, I didn't think my H would ever attend Retrovaille in a million years. And that lovely little speech he gave me about expressing my anger, which I admit was indeed wonderful, was probably not something I would have heard last year, or even 5 months ago. It took him a while to get there and many conversations. Retrovaille indeed helped him get "it" a little more. Our homework from Retro helped too, as well as information from the numerous books we ordered on infidelity. More on that later, but I do recall sending my H a post on Retrovaille that 25 wrote. I also told him a bit about her and her H and what they went through. He was inspired. He actually signed us up for Retrovaille and handled all the arrangements. I would have fallen over if someone would have told me he would have done that last year.

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Originally Posted By: dueinMay


Thank you. Oh my God, thank you. This is what I'm talking about when I said, "I'm super pissed that I can't be super pissed" I want H to be OK with me being pissed. I wish I could get a speech like that from my H saying that he knows he f*cked up and that it's ok to be angry and he wants me to get it all out. I've said it before and I'll say it again: it appears he simply cannot handle me being in a weak position. He couldn't handle it when I to have my gallbladder taken out (tried everything he could to convince me not to do the surgery), couldn't handle me being pregnant, and now cannot handle me being incapacitated by depression.

I like your analogy to death. I had told him that once. I said, "H, it's like you died. Do you not understand that? I feel like you died."

Maybe I should approach it from that aspect. I feel like there's more research on how to deal with death than on forgiveness. Maybe I just haven't been looking in the right places. I'll look at that book too.

I like the email list idea. I'm a lists person.

I'm just so tired of hurting.


May, I completely get it. I didn't post on DB for months because I was SO angry. So filled with rage that I felt it physically as pain. I recall one day as I was on my way to work being so filled with rage that my body was vibrating. It's all so unfair I kept thinking! He stole my choices. And the crazy ow in my case thought it was unfair to her because she waited for him. She actually left a message saying, "It's so unfair to me! I waited for you!". That still pisses me off. She waited?! I've been living with this man as his W for 18 years, we have two children and she was some side-ho for a year, and it's unfair to her? Trust me, I understand crazy angry rage all too well.

When I first tried to talk to my H about how angry I was, he would get angry and defensive because he was embarrassed. And he felt guilty. Of course, I didn't know this at first and his anger would make me even madder.

I was one angry scorned woman.

I had a crazy freak-out over my H suggesting we go to a burger joint on date night. I know. Ridiculous. In my angry mind, he was suggesting that I wasn't worth a nice dinner. I've never reacted so insanely to anything so silly like that in my life. He was looking at me like I had lost my mind. And in that moment, I truly had. I can't even remember what I screamed at him but something about, "Is that where you took your low class skank? Do you think I'm some kind of low class skank?" Yes, a cuckoo for cocoa puffs Endeavour moment.

I knew I needed some help so I started reading. A lot. There's a lot of information out there and there's actually a "rage, anger" phase that betrayed spouses go through. Apparently, it's one of the hardest phases of the journey. Triggers are fun too. Those emails triggered you and brought back all the pain, uncertainty and feelings of loss of control you felt in your sitch. Get rid of the triggers.

And the first thing they suggest is NO CONTACT with the A partner. EVER. Every book I've read on the subject says this is key. And from what you discovered in those letters, she was an EA or at the very least talking very inappropriately to a married man so he needs to go no contact with this woman or it will trigger you. My H had no problem agreeing to this because his ex-ow was a nut. However, he foolishly contacted her again when she began sending me ridiculous articles on helping kids through divorce. He didn't tell me and I discovered it. Yes, he contacted her to tell her to stop but we should have discussed it first so it triggered me all over again. I started wondering if they had secretly been in contact. Betrayal does crazy things to your mind. (Read articles on that as well). Now, there is no contact in place in the form of a C&D but that's a whole other post.

As for feeling like your H has died, that is covered in "After the Affair" I believe and it's so true. In the months following D-day, my H even commented that sometimes he caught me looking at him like he was a ghost and in some ways, sadly, he was a ghost to me.

I found a post written by a betrayed spouse who describes the betrayal as a death. (I will try to find it and post it because I know we can't include links.) I sent it to my H and told him this described my feelings. Sometimes this is what I do instead of bringing things up during the times we spend together having fun or enjoying each others company. I will email him an article or a post that resonates with me. He will respond with a sentence or two and sometimes we will discuss it briefly in person but we don't dwell. It works for us.

I will look for that post on death and betrayal...

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Below is some of the post I was referring to above. It's written by a man whose wife had an affair. They are still together, recovered and very happy. His post came about after a conversation he had with his wife and he posted to help the wayward spouse understand what their spouse might be feeling.

Yes, it's a bit dramatic but it many ways it resonated with me. Ironically, my H who has gone through moments of intense grief over what he has done has said many times that he killed the old him with his A. My daughter expressed a similar sentiment to me one night. That in her mind, her old father is dead and now she has a new one that she doesn't quite know yet. Equating death and betrayal seems to be a common theme for many...

"I want you to understand and remember two words. These are two very important words and it will help you to understand what your spouse is probably feeling even if they can’t express it. When they discovered your affair…YOU DIED! Let me say it again…YOU DIED! The person that your husband/wife married is gone forever. Think about a time when you lost someone really close to you. A father, mother, sister, brother, son, daughter, or spouse. Think of the grief that you had to deal with. That is the same grief that your spouse has to deal with each and every day. Every day that they wake up after D-Day you die again and they feel it again and it's just as intense. The feelings of loneliness, hopelessness, yes…anger (why did you leave me?) Can you even imagine the pain that he/she is going through? Probably not. Because you are the one that had died and they are the one that is left to pick up the pieces of a shattered life that was taken from. They are the ones that are left to deal with the loss of a loved one.

But here is the sick part. You are still here; but you aren’t! You are a doppelganger, a clone, an evil twin. You are the one that killed your spouse’s cherished love. You took the love of his/her life away forever violently and without mercy. You stabbed them, mutilated them, burned them and ultimately buried them. You are the monster that has torn up a family. You are the monster that has committed such a senseless heinous act. You are a murderer! And here's the part that most WS miss. You were aware of your actions. You stalked your husband/wife's spouse. You planned how to do it. You conspired with another murderer (the OM/OW) and you finally struck without warning and without honor. The BS was left in shock and dismay watching their cherished lover, friend, partner, confidant bleed to death in the street. They felt hopeless and helpless as the person they loved most in the world was taken from them. Their world...you...died that day.

And you want the grieving person to forgive you. Love you. Stay with you. Think about that for a minute. You, the pod person, the evil clone, the look alike murderer that destroyed the one person in life that your spouse cherished beyond all time and space want the sorrow filled, grief stricken, angry and injured beyond belief person to LOVE YOU? They had this involuntarily inflicted upon them. They had no choice. Only pain. And now you want them to choose to love you. Can you imagine going up to the person that murdered your loved one and choosing to love them?

Now you have a little glimpse into the psyche of your betrayed spouse. You also know why I always tell people that the old marriage is dead and the couple must learn to love each other as new…if they can. It is also why I recommend the betrayed spouse read “Just Let Them Go” even if they want to reconcile. Because you truly have to let the cheating spouse go in order to learn to hopefully love the new version of your husband/wife."


May, I do get it, it's all unfair. It [censored]. Your pregnancy and the birth of your daughter was not as you imagined and that would make me angry too.

But as 25 says, what we deal with is not Africa unfair.

That reminds me to be grateful for what I do have. It's not perfect but not much in life is anyway.

Anyway, I will have more to share later on talking about the details of the EA but I have to call it a night for now but please know, that your anger will get better. But it won't happen overnight. Often, I try to remember that underneath my anger, is sadness and fear and pain.

And in my truly lucid deep moments, I think to myself if I can get through this, I can get through anything. My H also knows that strike two and he's out. I go through this once. That gives me some peace and some control and in the end, that's the only person that we can control.

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[quote=ESN]Sweetie, now we're getting somewhere. Whether anyone here thinks this is okay or that you should give up or not. This is reality. This is the truth. And it's good to acknowledge it.

B/c what did change - as 25 keeps asking - from before to now is that you found [censored] on his computer.


Just so I'm clear, it's my understanding that May recently FOUND things on the computer from earlier, NOT that he'd written them recently or about things that happened recently,

But that she found them recently.

As far as I know, which Is why I'm asking, the only "new" event was his trying to give OW the tickets back

which he admitted doing and that it was stupid.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,511
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May

as Endeavor says, the knowldege that this is a one time deal CAN help you feel safer or more empowered.
Endeavor wrote:


And in my truly lucid deep moments, I think to myself if I can get through this, I can get through anything. My H also knows that strike two and he's out. I go through this once. That gives me some peace and some control and in the end, that's the only person that we can control.


This makes me feels strong b/c I KNOW something i didn't know before, which is that I can survive, and yes be happy, with or without my h.

You could try again with your h and not risk "it all". You can know that no matter what HE does, you will be alright. How?

Well, I know I do not plan on being in that hideous position again, like Endeavor says, this was for me a one time deal...

if h freaked again or had an A, I'd be done & gone. No 2nd thoughts and no regrets.

As Oprah would say, "This is what I'm sure of...."


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 352
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There is so much, and I sincerely doubt I'll be able to address all of your responses, so please forgive me if I miss key points or things that people are specifically concerned about.

Yeah, I guess I've never stated my geographical location. I hail from the Big D. Everything really is bigger here wink I think the only thing that blatantly gives it away when I encounter someone is my use of the word "y'all".

Yes, I realize he's done nothing new... but the things that bothers me is the hiding. I mean, maybe I'm stupid, but I believed him when he said NOTHING happened. So it was like discovering something new that I didn't know about... because I really did not know about it. He would have blown a complete gasket if he found conversations like that in my email. I had to rid myself of male friends early in our relationship because he just couldn't handle it (and I had a LOT). But I gave them up at the time because I thought he was worth it. I wanted to make him feel comfortable. So I ditched them.

But I would NEVER have had conversations like I found with any of them.

Thank you for reminding me, 25, of his depression. It's like the blind leading the blind right now. We're both a mess. It's really, really hard to remember that.

I feel like a jerk for it, but as a T, I would HATE it when they would give me substance abuse clients. I very much felt like "um, they got themselves into this mess. I have very little sympathy".

That's kind of where I'm at with H's struggling. Don't be a douche. You wouldn't be feeling like this had you not been a huge douche.

But I know that kind of thinking won't get me anywhere either. And I know I have a tongue that can cut to the bone and I have used it multiple times on H. I don't use names (despite me calling him names on here), but I do have a special talent for making people feel about 3 inches tall. I don't unleash it often, but I've been told when I do, it's justified (and this is from the people who received the lashing, usually). I know this doesn't help the situation.

I don't know how to handle people who stick their heads in the sand and pretend this isn't happening. I can see H shutting down when I ask questions. It's his escape behavior.

When a child exhibits escape behavior at work, I just wait it out. Literally. For hours sometimes. Eventually they realize "this woman is NOT gonna give it up" and they cave.

But I know I'm not at work. I know he's not a child (although sometimes I wonder....). 25 has said it before. In some ways, my occupation makes hurts my situation more. I'm really good at my job. So NOT using the skills that make me awesome at my job is REALLY hard. And it makes me feel REALLY out of control. Which I hate.

Maybe I should email that thing to H about him being his own murderer. He seems to do better with text than in person. I know I do. Maybe it hurts him to see me fall apart.

He still won't cry in MC. Even though I can see it pooling up in his eyes. He will not show that emotion. And I don't know why. He was never that "men don't cry" guy.

I'm rambling.

He's in LA. Again. He left this morning. He'll be back Friday morning. I'm not happy about it, but he made a lot of effort to kiss me several times before leaving. I ran a 5k with D in the stroller this morning. It was nice to do that for myself.

Oh, and 25, I know I'll never REALLY know. It drives me crazy. If I could just know, I would feel so much better, even if I found out there was a PA. Then at least I would know the truth, and I could make a clear decision. It would be much more objective for me at that point. Because if this man can sleep with another woman while I'm pregnant because he can't stand me being in a vulnerable position, what will happen if I get cancer? When I have to deal with my parents dying? What will he do if our child gets sick? I know I can't be with someone who can't stand by my side in worst of situations.

So even if there was a PA, I want to know. So I can just cut the cord and be done. But I know I'll never really know.


I have the patience of Job.
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DIM... how would you counsel someone who was dealing with anger?

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