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#2239593 - 04/21/12 01:40 AM Re: New Day Rising [Re: WenikiTiki]
MrBond Online
Member

Registered: 06/18/08
Posts: 10792
GWN,

Are you seeing a C to get some help? IMHO that action was pretty drastic. You could have just boxed the photos up and stored them away. Regardless of how he seems now you did have happy memories together and they were real.
_________________________
M-43 W-40
2D - 9 and 5

Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet a new life.

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#2239655 - 04/21/12 03:11 PM Re: New Day Rising [Re: MrBond]
greatwhitenorth Offline
Member

Registered: 11/02/11
Posts: 331
Loc: Canada
Thanks Bond and Wendy.

Yes, I'm talking to a C now. I think I'm going through a major depressive episode. People are extremely worried about me, to say the least. I'm getting a new doctor but not until the end of May, and will ask her to give me something to stabilize my mood.

The problem is that whenever I see the C I'm able to talk clearly and with insight about what's going on. Intellectually I have a great grip on things, it's the emotional side that's hard, and that's come to a head with the info on the job.

When I fall into despair I fall really, really hard and it feels like nothing is ever going to get better and I am little more than a fool for thinking I matter at all - to H, his D, my work - and that talking to friends and family about it is little more than a burden that affects them negatively.

I ended up going over to the farm/rescue next door with some dry cat food that mine refuses to eat. They insisted I stay for dinner, drink some wine and get in the hot tub. I ended up coming home fairly late and a little tipsy. It was nice and I appreciate that they're looking out for me.

The neighbour confirmed that he did hear from H about starting to bring his clients (mentally challenged adults) there again for community outreach / recreation. As neighbour's wife said "why here? There's lots of other places he can go." I just agreed with that and said it's between them.

I can't imagine how that's going to go. Neighbour is a bit rough around the edges and tends to speak his mind. He knows how hurt I've been and where I stand with regard to my marriage. H can't lie to him and say we agreed to split up, as he appears to have done with others. Would love to be a fly on the barn wall.
_________________________
me 45
H 46
T 5
M 2.5
BD Sept 6 2011
OW Sept 8 2011
Threw him out Sept 8 2011

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#2242470 - 05/03/12 03:11 AM Re: New Day Rising [Re: greatwhitenorth]
4myfamily Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/08
Posts: 64
Loc: SE Asia
Dear GWN,

I have not looked at the DB forums for a while because I feel I have finally achieved some clarity with my own situation.

GWN I am saddened to read that your situation has caught up with you in the way that it has or had. It is amazing that total strangers can have such compassion for each other, as demonstrated here on DB. I find that well of empathy to be heart warming. I have found even total strangers display more empathy than my W ever did. Friends simply do not treat each other the way our ex's have treated us.

In my case I know that the person I loved and pursued, built a life around and planned a future with never existed. I know I was used as a means of filling a very deep void. I now realise that my W never loved me, in the normal sense, and is incapable of forming a normal emotional attachment to anyone, even her children.

Love is a decision we make and there are a great many people out there that we could choose to love. We need to learn the lessons and choose carefully. Most importantly we must love ourselves accepting who we are.

GWN you seem like the sort of person many people would be pleased to be in a relationship with. The fact that your H has behaved the way he has is no reflection on you. This his personality disorder, normal people do not act this way. Period. Normal people react the way you have.

It is a while since you posted so I truly hope you are feeling better about life. Letting go of dreams is hard, time for some new ones?

Life is good you will come through this!! Good luck!!

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#2243000 - 05/05/12 12:27 AM Re: New Day Rising [Re: 4myfamily]
greatwhitenorth Offline
Member

Registered: 11/02/11
Posts: 331
Loc: Canada
Hi 4mf. Thanks for checking in.

You're right - it's amazing that total strangers can have such compassion for each other. It's what gets us through the night, so to speak.

My H, too, is incapable of normal emotional attachments. I know this not only from his leaving but also from what his D tells me and what I've seen of their relationship, his compartmentalization, etc. But I do think he wants to on some level. He's just scared. H will honestly do anything for anyone and misinterprets this as closeness. He doesn't understand that closeness entails giving of himself, letting guards down, showing people who he is on the inside. The good friends illusion is sustained because he makes them about what he can do for the other person. Everybody loves him and he's safe.

I also agree that love is a decision and we choose whom we love. The thing that's changed for me is that although I will love someone unconditionally, I will not be with them unconditionally. The person I next find myself with will have to show up in the relationship, he will have to trust me with his heart, be open and honest, not hide from me or shut me out.

Not sure if you read that I am also facing lay off at work. It was the catalyst for the depressive episode. The severance package is very generous and I have a different perspective on things. In this situation, as in that with H, I have to be PATIENT. I am not a patient person. A good friend says I'm always 30 seconds ahead of everybody else. To my benefit or detriment it seems. I'm now thinking about a second career. My director told me today that when I talk about my ideas it's like a light goes on inside, and when I talk about work it goes right off again.

I want that light to stay on forever but leaving the security of my job is going to be really, really hard.

Thank you for saying I seem like the sort of person many people would be pleased to be in a relationship with. It means a lot to hear that because I internalize so much of what's happened, both at work and in my marriage. My personality is such that I take responsibility and ownership, even when it is very hard to do. I know in my head and my heart that there's nothing I could have done to prevent the train wreck that my marriage turned out to be but I also ask, what if I had done something differently. That said, I don't spend much time there these days.

After you boil it all down, fact of the matter is a walk away spouse simply isn't as committed to the marriage as you are. Plain and simple. And you can't make them be.

I'm glad you have some clarity, 4mf, and a great outlook. I hope you're right and that I'll come through this.

Thanks again for checking in. Means a lot.
_________________________
me 45
H 46
T 5
M 2.5
BD Sept 6 2011
OW Sept 8 2011
Threw him out Sept 8 2011

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#2243126 - 05/05/12 05:04 PM Re: New Day Rising [Re: greatwhitenorth]
4myfamily Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/08
Posts: 64
Loc: SE Asia

My W tends to see every thing in black and white people are either in one moment all good or all bad. With other people she is charming and seems the nicest person on earth, and that how I saw her as well when we first got together. However I now see that that person is totally manufactured and she is quite capable of doing anything to fill her emotional void no matter if it hurts those closest to her. To everyone else she is very concerned that to the truth about her actions is kept under wraps. The truth would spoil the illusion.

I have been guilty at times of being over-helpful and a people pleaser myself, and that level of helpfulness is also a controlling behavior, so not anymore!

I am not sure about unconditional love (except for my sons), a relationship is a two way street.
We all have needs and if someone is unwilling to meet our requests for meeting those needs then that is, in my experience, a lonely place to be. One exercise I found very useful is just to write on flash cards what your needs and wishes are in a relationship. Write out a card as each thought comes to you. You would be amazed how many compromises you have made, and how much you have given up over the years.

Obviously a lay off is a negative but a generous severance package is a big positive. Personally I find change exciting and I have always loved a road trip...and sometimes living life a bit more on the edge, not so secure, can make you feel more alive. Might be primal: looking out for the predators?

When I was fairly desperate to save my marriage it was my 18 year old son, who sees things from a slightly different perspective as he has a different relationship with his mother (he loves her but...) who gave me some words of wisdom: 'Dad nothing lasts forever..... let it go...it's over' Its a law of the universe nothing does last forever, maybe we need to learn to accept change as normal and not fight it. Once I accepted it was over and I stopped living in hope, optimism returned.

We all suffer from Fear, Obligation and Guilt in these relationships. Have you seen http://outofthefog.net ?
None of this is in the slightest way your fault. You have no control over anything except your own thoughts and actions. Our ex's make their own decisions, whether consciously or sub-consciously. They alone are responsible, there is not one thing you could have done to change a damn thing he said or did. He has been programmed since childhood to do this at some point in his life.

GWN I took great strength from your early posts, what I interpreted as your independence and no nonsense practicality. I think we all learn a lot about ourselves, life and relationships from these experiences. Hopefully that wisdom leads to better choices in the future.

Although it is presumptuous , I really do have a strong feeling you will come through all of this to a much better times.

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#2244840 - 05/13/12 02:45 PM Re: New Day Rising [Re: 4myfamily]
greatwhitenorth Offline
Member

Registered: 11/02/11
Posts: 331
Loc: Canada
4MF

Originally Posted By: 4myfamily

she is very concerned that to the truth about her actions is kept under wraps. The truth would spoil the illusion.


I believe this about H too. But I think his motivator is shame. He's made some bad decisions throughout his life and is running from them, from himself, still. I think on some level he believes he does not deserve love. I've mentioned previously that I wonder if something untoward happened to him as a child. The saddest part of it is the running means he keeps making bad decisions, thereby perpetuating the misery. Easy for me to say I suppose.

Originally Posted By: 4myfamily

I am not sure about unconditional love (except for my sons), a relationship is a two way street.


I believe love and relating are two different things. You can love someone, warts and all, but choose to not be with them because of the way they treat you. Both are choices and are mutually exclusive. I love my husband, regardless of the mistakes he has made. I believe he is a good person at his core, just badly damaged. But I will not put up with being lied to overtly or by omission, should he choose to return. You can love someone but choose to not be with them. That's called moving on I guess.

Originally Posted By: 4myfamily
You would be amazed how many compromises you have made, and how much you have given up over the years.


Haven't done the exercise, but I hear you on the lessons. I sacrificed a number of things I needed in my marriage because I love H. Ain't gonna happen no more. We split up early in our relationship and he asked for a second chance. He said he had no passion for me. Said it again this time around. Thing is, I don't think he has passion for anyone or anything. You cannot have passion when your emotions are stuffed way, way down, when you're closed up tight as a drum. He is so unwilling or unable to let loose, which is a core element of passion... letting loose, letting go. Passion IS feeling, and when you don't let yourself feel then of course you don't have passion. The root of this in H I don't know, but it's sad.

Originally Posted By: 4myfamily
Obviously a lay off is a negative but a generous severance package is a big positive. Personally I find change exciting and I have always loved a road trip...and sometimes living life a bit more on the edge, not so secure, can make you feel more alive. Might be primal: looking out for the predators?


Right with you there too. I am 98% certain that my decision will be to take the package and begin a second career. I've gotten incredibly positive feedback from everybody I've talked to about this, and they're wise people. And yes, I've never felt more energized! I see more clearly now that the pervasive eating away at my core that happened as a result of my work environment MUST HAVE eaten away at my marriage. I have been miserable at work FOR YEARS. It's a risk that I'm taking, but a risk of something great is much better than the certainty of misery.

Originally Posted By: 4myfamily
When I was fairly desperate to save my marriage it was my 18 year old son, who sees things from a slightly different perspective as he has a different relationship with his mother (he loves her but...) who gave me some words of wisdom: 'Dad nothing lasts forever..... let it go...it's over' Its a law of the universe nothing does last forever, maybe we need to learn to accept change as normal and not fight it. Once I accepted it was over and I stopped living in hope, optimism returned.


H's D had the same effect on me. I told her at one point that I was happier than I'd been in a long time and that I love her father but couldn't be with someone who wasn't completely honest with me (she knows about OW and the lies he told about leaving her mother and the city they used to live in, but nothing deep). She said she felt a lot better, that I was better off because he would never change. She needed to know I would be happy and OK. This was the point when she started talking to, and not yelling at, him again. I never spoke a bad word about her dad, although he did me. She and I have a great relationship now, though my recent depression tried to convince me otherwise.

Originally Posted By: 4myfamily
They alone are responsible, there is not one thing you could have done to change a damn thing he said or did. He has been programmed since childhood to do this at some point in his life.


Agreed! I don't think I suffer guilt, fear and obligation though. Maybe some fear early on, but that passed. Now I just miss him and our life but am sticking to no contact. It's been three weeks and not a peep, whereas he used to go no more than two without contacting me for something. A bill for an ambulance he used back in October came here this week for for the third time. I forwarded the bill AGAIN, and fought the urge to remind him that if he doesn't pay it his provincial health insurance might be stopped. Not my problem to solve, though I'd hate to see that happen what with the congenital heart defect (ironic I know) they recently discovered.

Originally Posted By: 4myfamily
GWN I took great strength from your early posts, what I interpreted as your independence and no nonsense practicality. I think we all learn a lot about ourselves, life and relationships from these experiences. Hopefully that wisdom leads to better choices in the future.


4MF, it means so much to hear that. Independence and no nonsense practicality are pretty good descriptors of me. And yes, we learn a lot if we choose to. Sadly, there are some who are resistant to that learning.

Originally Posted By: 4myfamily
Although it is presumptuous , I really do have a strong feeling you will come through all of this to a much better times.


Thank you. I know in my heart that I will but it's a difficult row to hoe. I am a bit lonesome these days and would like some male company but I refuse to date before informing H that I intend to do so. And I won't inform him by email, so I wait for him to call me to pick up more of his things. He has all his hunting gear now so it might be awhile.

The plan is to have a face to face convo that consists of my letting him know that I believe our marriage is worth saving and have been hoping he'd come to the same belief but since he hasn't I have to move on.

I am not a patient person, and have found that waiting always ends poorly. I waited ten years for my brother to die, then waited weeks from BD for the other shoe to drop in my marriage, and now waiting for this. Difference is, I knew for sure my brother would die. I knew in my heart and my gut that H was cake eating after he first left. But this last one, about moving on and the futility of my marriage, I'm not so sure about. Maybe it's "bandaid optimism" to protect me from pain, or maybe it's based on the fact that I really don't know.

I've come to not like weekends so much. Although the workplace is negative and morale is in the toilet what with all the cuts going on, I am surrounded by people when I'm there. Weekends are quiet and a bit lonely. I do reach out, have drinks with the neighbours, invite people over, tour small towns with friends, visit family, but the gaping hole that was my life with H is ever obvious. The boat sits outside, and right now we should be getting out in it several times a month.

I've written before about the pain of passing events and seasons. New memories must move in, but until I can have someone new in my life it will be hard to create them in the way they're needed. My heart needs a connection that flows back to me. It's the human condition.

Until the jury's back I'll motor along battling my garden, watching in awe the baby hummingbirds (so tiny yet they thrive!!)at my window feeder, working on my business plan, pondering the possibilities presented in my second career and how the planets have aligned to present the opportunity.

Happy Mothers Day to all you mommas out there!
_________________________
me 45
H 46
T 5
M 2.5
BD Sept 6 2011
OW Sept 8 2011
Threw him out Sept 8 2011

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#2245319 - 05/15/12 03:13 PM Re: New Day Rising [Re: greatwhitenorth]
4myfamily Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/08
Posts: 64
Loc: SE Asia
It seems at the core of a lot of theses problems, whether a mid-life crisis or a personality disorder, lies the damage done by childhood abandonment or abuse. I am sure after all I have read my W was probably subjected to both. This apparently causes the shame, guilt and low self-esteem of a child who may think they are not worthy of love. Is this why they reject those who genuinely love them later in life. Do they really think 'anybody who loves me must be seriously flawed and rejected'? I now know my W has projected a lot of her depression and low self-esteem onto me. I too have felt that she 'is a good person' but with a few odd character traits and flaws. I now realise that her lack of self is a big black hole, and in an effort to fill it and make a connection , I have poured in all my emotion and changed my life! It is just not possible, it would never be enough. Ultimately she is not prepared to make any effort to change or work on her marriage, it is easier to keep searching for the man who will love her unconditionally no matter what she has said or done (or not done). Her part in a relationship seems to be just to turn up.

I think the false self they create is so buttoned up they are incapable of spontaneity. Certainly little off the wall humour, generally in my experience a lot of sarcasm with a good dose of schadenfreude!! Any playfulness would be looked upon as weird and ridiculous.
My wife said she had no attraction for me but she married me anyway. What kind of person marries someone she feels no attraction for? She says she has done that twice now. Is it true or a defensive, hurtful comment?

I think we all get a bit lonely at times and a understanding companion of the opposite would be 'nice'.
Personally though I think it would be asking a lot of someone new at the moment, unless they had been through the same sort of experience. I still have a lot of unresolved feelings about the last 22 years. The rose tinted spectacles are definitely off though and the past is looking a lot less nostalgic

To me, at times, the whole thing just seems crazy as I believe my W would be a 'great person to have a good relationship' with, BUT it is just not possible as she is emotionally unavailable, and acts out against those who love her!! Even writing that makes no sense, but is that what love does to us?

I know once I abandoned hope of saving my marriage and became hopeful of a different future I felt somehow happier. And strangely I was able to be more mindful at work, put more focus on my job. A lot of anxieties left me too. Maybe trying to hold a relationship together that is bound by the thinnest of threads is exhausting emotionally and physically. I also feel I 'projected' some of my relationship dissatisfaction’s on to my work. i.e. if I changed my job I would be happier! I have never enjoyed my job more than I do now.

It is a shame about the boat which is obviously represents a big part of your togetherness. We had a Bayliner that we used for wake-boarding when our boys were younger (gas here at 43 cents a litre helped). As they have moved on in their lives I sold it and restored a 29' yacht which was something I intended my W and I use together. I actually think that was too much connection or togetherness for her. Fortunately it can be sailed single-handed and so it is a great escape for me.

We all have a need for that intimate human connection, in my opinion it is what human existence is about: man/wife parent/child etc. Would be nice to hold someone close too.........

Nice to hear from you GWN, I enjoy sharing our respective outlooks on life, the universe and everything! (I find having my rambling thoughts in some kind of order quite cathartic/therapeutic as well).

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#2246833 - 05/20/12 12:19 PM Re: New Day Rising [Re: 4myfamily]
greatwhitenorth Offline
Member

Registered: 11/02/11
Posts: 331
Loc: Canada
Journaling

Week before last I came home to my phone showing that H's aunt and his best friend had called here. No message left, of course. It was middle of the morning on a work day so I figured something was up. Assumed that he'd probably had the procedure to fix his *broken heart*. They discovered a congenital heart defect (most commonly diagnosed type that has zero mortality rate with a simple procedure to repair) last month.

Didn't give it any more thought than that. I had told him previously that, although I care very much about him and his health, as long as we're apart there's no need to tell me any of this. He has respected that boundary.

Yesterday, H's aunt called when I was at home so I answered. She thought this was his cell number. We ended up chatting for 15 minutes. She told me how she's doing since the passing of her husband last month. Said H's mother (who hasn't acknowledged my existance since last November....maybe she's ashamed of her son, maybe she couldn't wait to see the back of me, maybe it's too painful for her, maybe she doesn't see the point in kindness towards a fellow human being who was part of your life for five years...) has been her rock. I told her I'm happy they have each other.

So apparently after they did the procedure on H, he had a bit of a heart murmur or arrhythmia and they kept him overnight for observation. A week passes and he gets the same thing again so calls his mother (a retired nurse practitioner) who tells him to go to emergency, which he does. He gets there, is triaged, and sits for hours, only to be sent home because everything's fine.

I figure it was an anxiety or panic attack of some sort...but that's based on a lack of info so is worth no more than the paper it's written on, which it isn't so there you go...

Aunt said he told his mother he would never listen to her again.

Don't know if he was being serious or not, was angry or kidding. Could go either way, but the mommy string needs to be cut. And it sounds like the rebellious tone of a teenager.

Anyway, it was nice to chat with Aunt. She has always been very thoughtful of me. She said she thought H and I were doing really well, to which I replied "so did I." We discussed the merits of seeing the good things in life and choosing to be happy. She was really happy to have dialed the wrong number!

As for H, he's probably in the throes of a *real life* mortality fantasy, unlike the earlier brain tumour and skin cancer fictions that possessed him early in his journey.

Maybe he'll come out the other end of this when his heart tissue grows over the patch they've put in and the organ is healed completely.

Now if only they could find a patch for the really crappy decision making these MLCers get up to. Like my cousin says, "no fool like an old fool".
_________________________
me 45
H 46
T 5
M 2.5
BD Sept 6 2011
OW Sept 8 2011
Threw him out Sept 8 2011

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#2246844 - 05/20/12 01:34 PM Re: New Day Rising [Re: greatwhitenorth]
AJM Offline
Member

Registered: 11/26/08
Posts: 3015
Quote:
I've come to not like weekends so much. Although the workplace is negative and morale is in the toilet what with all the cuts going on, I am surrounded by people when I'm there. Weekends are quiet and a bit lonely. I do reach out, have drinks with the neighbours, invite people over, tour small towns with friends, visit family, but the gaping hole that was my life with H is ever obvious.
One of the things I noticed was exactly that, except not from another person. I noticed that my routine needed to change. My memories. That's the part where time helps to heal. Time to create new memories, a new 'norm' for my life without x. That took a while. I was married for 20 years and with her for 23. That doesn't go away overnight, and does not get replaced. What changes is my life and my perspective.

The weekends alone get better as you make changes. It takes a while though I think it's worth it. I still live in the same house and that, I think, made it take a bit longer. But I have to say that I look forward to the downtime now. I look forward to the alone time and the time with friends. More balanced. The gaping hole is but a speck now. It'll get that way for you as well, but try not to be in too much of a hurry to get there. There's much to see and do along the way...

Your post was interesting GWN. A momma's boy that had a health care provider for a mother that seems to be somewhat overly concerned about health issues?? Who could have guessed momma would have put her fears into him? wink

AJ
_________________________
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter" MLK
Put the glass down...
"Yesterday I was clever so I wanted to change the world
Today I am wise, so I am changing myself."

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#2247746 - 05/23/12 02:19 PM Re: New Day Rising [Re: AJM]
greatwhitenorth Offline
Member

Registered: 11/02/11
Posts: 331
Loc: Canada
NEED INPUT!

I received this email today:

"Hi W

I hope things are fine for you.
I would like to move the boat to the marina on Saturday afternoon if this is OK with you.

I would also like to pick up a few more things.

H"

Probably not a coincidence that it comes just a couple of days after I spoke with his aunt, but whatever.

My position has been that the next time I see him I would have the moving on conversation. I also said that once the boat sells, that's it for me. It will sell more quickly at the marina.

I would like input on how to reply to this email. This is what I have drafted:

"H

I hope you are well too.

For the past eight months I have done a lot of thinking, and although some pretty important things were missing in our marriage, I have always believed that we had a fantastic life together and that the good parts outweighed the bad.

All marriages take work, communication, compromise and trust, and I believe that our marriage is worth fighting for and have always been willing to meet you half way.

In hoping we could try again, I have stayed true to my vows. But I need to be loved, to be touched, to build a life with a man I love and trust and who loves and trusts me in return. I have to move on and will start dating.

As for your request, I already have plans for Saturday so that won't work.

Do whatever you need to do with regards to the boat. Please also disassemble the shelter and take that away too.

As for your things, please be prepared to take everything that is left in the house. It is up to you to file and pay for the divorce as it is your choice and yours alone. I will not stand in your way by contesting, but I also will not participate.

Please arrange something with the post office so that your mail stops coming to the house, and change your address.

All the best.
W"

I ran it by my bff, who said "wow. it's a really powerful email. there is a lot of power behind it. there is calmness, openness, resolve and strength all at the same time." I asked her whether it sounds bitter and she said no.

I would LOVE, no NEED your feedback, especially from the vets.

Thanks!
_________________________
me 45
H 46
T 5
M 2.5
BD Sept 6 2011
OW Sept 8 2011
Threw him out Sept 8 2011

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