Hi Crimson. As a parent I think what you're "most afraid of" needs to be refocused onto the helpless innocent babies in this dialogue. We hear a lot about how much you need your son, and how much your W does, and when you talk about splitting the time it's all about what you need and want. Think instead in terms of what your son needs and wants. Think about whether these children are better off having you as their dad or whatever alternatives remain to your W, who wants another child. Think about whether you want your son to have a sibling and what that will mean to the children. Think about the financial needs of two children and whether you can support them. There are many more facets to think about but in the scheme of what's important for the children, your emotion of missing them part of the time would be pretty low on the list. I'm not for or against, or suggesting an answer to you at all, but merely suggesting that you're using the wrong factors in your decision making process. You've got to think for the kid(s) because this decision affects him or them way more than it's going to affect you, and they have no control and no say in their lives at all right now.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
I have one child, not by choice. I would have loved to have more, but biology wouldn't cooperate. I might have been able to if I would have been willing to use donor sperm -- I was not. As it is, I have my son via adoption, and the only thing missing in our relationship is DNA. In fact, I think I actually value him more because getting him wasn't easy.
The point is simply that not being able to have as many children as you would like is not the end of the world. Bringing a child into a broken environment for self-gratification is.... well, certainly less than ideal.
Crimson... this is not even about whether you want to have another child with this woman...
This is about whether you will be there for your W... and be there for the kids WITH your W...
Because you can have another child on your own... doesn't make it right or wrong WHAT environment the child is born and raised... give them the love and nurturing and meet their physical needs... and even in poverty, children can thrive... missing limbs... missing parents... bah... they don't need us... they need a caregiver...
We bond because it's necessary... but it ain't about us... that's selfish thinking...
So what would it matter if your W and you decided that one of you would take the embryo and hopefully have a child of it... and raise it on their own...? WITHOUT the other parent...?
Crimson... before you can even make the determination about whether to bring a child into a broken family... you need to determine whether you are willing to commit to your W... period...
Not because of what she's done to you in the past... 'cause it's pretty clear that she's simply unsure that you're wanting to be there with her...
So adinva, I don't think I could act one way or another in this situation if I (we) didn't address the excellent points that you brought up above. As noted long ago in a previous post/thread part of my weakness is that I try to analyze every facet of every major situation in life (babies, jobs, moving, etc.) and if I don't have a crystal clear answer for every question that could come up in 20 years I freeze and don't act. That is partially why I was so hesitant about baby number 2 in the first place. I want to make a responsible choice, but I don't want to fall back in the habit of micro-dissection. It was lethal to my marriage.
We can afford a second child, we both do OK collectively. We have space in the home, and so on. What matters is discovering if I can love enough to do it separately. It's not a matter of loving the child - that is a given. It's a matter of being able to love enough to trust and do this a way that heretofore was unconventional to me and often times frowned upon societally. There is no question that there would be an abundance of love for both children - that's who I have discovered I am in this process....and who I have always known my W to be.
KD - I am willing to commit to my wife whole heartedly. At this point, I would hope that everyone can see that I am not in this for a "win". I know it is hard for HER to see that right now, but that is one of the things I am hopeful that time can fix. Her being unsure is understandable.
CV - I understand what you mean about getting him not being easy. My w and I often reflect upon how much our S means to us just because of all the hard work it took to get him. Years of trying and 4 failed fertility procedures. She and I are bonded together in that experience.
I am not making ANY conclusions here - spare the fact that I am willing to have a dialogue with my w about what this type of relationship would look like and what it would mean for OUR relationship and relationships with others.
One of the happiest days that I have had during my sitch was the day we both sat in the doctors office and talked about having a second baby with our specialist. It was happy for both of us. It was the first time my wife reached in and gave me a hug. There is a reason for that happiness - and it wasn't just about R with my wife.
If I am willing to try and change, to be a better person, father, husband - I need to at least remain open to things that I would have been closed off to before. This is one of those things that I will explore. My w said on the day that she dropped the bomb that things always have to be "my way or no way". Just saying that I want to talk about doing this her way if the we both feel strongly enough about it and are prepared is a major....MAJOR 180 for me.
Again, I'm not saying I will or won't. I am saying that I will talk about it. Prior to this point, I wouldn't. It is a very serious decision that impacts the lives of many people - especially the children.
I understand decision making paralysis. Part of it is the vast universe of possible factors and scenarios, which you need to pare down to only the relevant ones. You need to weigh using this embryo against the most likely alternative scenario(s), not every possible scenario. If you discard this embryo, will that prevent W from having a baby? I doubt it, it'll just prevent her from having that baby.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
Crimson, I believe you when you say you aren't in this to "win"... I get a sense that by that, you mean that you don't want to win, at some else' loss...
I found it interesting that you posted in jlove's thread and wondering about the value of retrouvaille for you and your W, since it was after the date of the D...
Tell me that doesn't still sound like this whole thing is about the D for you... how to prevent it...
Yes, I understand that perhaps you believe that retrouvaille... or anything that is labelled as relating to marital relationships would not apply to you in the event that you are D... but that didn't sound like your questions in that thread...
Maybe I was off there... only you could tell me...
When you were offered the job you currently have... did you plan the route and consider all the possible problems and risks that could happen... including death in transit... for the next 20 years... before you accepted the job...?
Did you do the same when you agreed to start dating your W?
How about when you chose to marry her?
When you decided to have your first child?
When you went to that last restaurant...?
OK, I understand that perhaps your suggestion of micro-planning was a bit of an exaggeration...
Is it not true that some things should be carefully considered?
Of course...
But you did mention something very important and clear about that behaviour in you...
It is a habit...
You go there when you are stressed...
Because it does what for you?
Perhaps it allows you to not have to make a decision... because you need to review everything more carefully...
Again, what's the real root of that... because I know you can pour on the logic to defend why making a decision of that import is imperative...
Many people successfully have children without that careful consideration... even in poverty... even in times of war... even when they don't know the outcome... because really... we never know... you could both loose your jobs after this child is born... but that isn't a consideration for you...
Whether you "save" your M is the consideration...
What the heck, man... have a love child with this woman...!!!
Who cares? You'll love and take care of the kid, won't you...?
I completely get the analysis paralysis. I have that too. Like so many things in life, recognition is a giant leap toward correction. I figure you're at least half-way home.
Your faith will have to factor in significantly on this, obviously. "Disposing" could mean truly discarding, or you could offer it up for adoption. Both of those options have a slew of "what-if's" associated with them, too. So this is not a light or simple decision before you. It's good that you are considering options outside of your previous comfort zone.
One of the techniques I've developed to address my analysis-paralysis is to answer three questions. First, can I put this off until later. (Yes, I'm trading my current issue for procrastination. Meh, I still figure it's a step up.) The second question is "Can I change my mind on this later," in other words, do it differently later. It makes it much easier to make decisions on big-ticket purchases or things like job changes, because though serious, they are things that can be changed if it doesn't work out. It enables me to make a decision and get on with living, and simply decide to change it later if necessary. And the third question is "Will I regret more bearing the consequences of having done it, or of having not done it."
Of course, you could just flip a coin, then do the opposite of the win because that's not what you really wanted to do, or is it...?
And sometimes there is no really good decision, but just what you can live with long term. Fact is, even if you and W decide to go the route of "baking" the embryo, there's no guarantee it will result in a baby. It's still all up to God.
Yes, I know I'll get tagged for this one, so I will agree that you did indicate the "upside" of retrouvaille after D, so I honour you for looking at the positive opportunity it might be, even after the fact...
Thanks, KD - was going to say that I was expressing HOPE for Retrouvaille. No interest in giving up just yet - still trying to believe in non-linear progress.
Talk to the guy in my office that is my senior, but went through this exact same ordeal in his marriage. His w made it all the way to D as well. He said that he honestly believes that once the D is over, my wife will feel like a million pund weight has been lifted off of her shoulders. Said that is what happened with his own wife and actually, over time, made things better. They have been back together for years. He said NOTHING that I have said strikes him as "odd" or unusual relative to my situation. Granted, there is no script - but it's nice to talk to someone that has done this before.
