Never thought I'd be here......part XIV

[Crimson]

Figured I'd switch it up a bit with Roman numerals.....hey, keep life interesting, right?

Part 13

[Crimson]

Previously posted by 25yearsmlc:

I was not really interested in a theological discussion. I just wanted Crimson to see the HOPE in his situation. I think he gets the pain part already.

Crimson---when she apologizes for reaming you (as opposed to some mutual "fray" for which you both would apologize for hurtful things said) then accept the apology.

At best her timing of the reaming sukked. You took her out, you both laughed a lot and she held your arm and then gets in the car to ream you out?

At worst, she HAD to blow the evening b/c God forbid she acts happy around you when she MUST be miserable and prove that you are too.

That was just lousy of HER...let her apologize.

In the future If she wants to express regrets or anger, pick a normal appropriate time. Even if she is "right" to feel however she feels, you think a birthday party is a good time to bring it up? How about Christmas Eve? See my point?

As for the validating and not recalling--as you may recall, my h does NOT remember saying that he was "willing to take that chance" when I asked him if he knew he was risking losing our marriage and family.

He says he'd "never say something like that, ever."....I can tell you where I was (guest bathroom) and what I was doing--not gross--I was spackling the wall.

So yes, I am positive he said it.

But to him that would be SO hurtful and stupid to say, he just cannot believe it. I think at some level he does not want to.

Unlike your w, I don't HAVE to have him recall it, but then again, it wasn't about having another child. If she does not think you know HOW you hurt her then she'll not feel safe about it not happening again. That is the difference.

If you don't recall something at all, MAYBE you can say "I can't believe I'd be that insensitive or stupid or---, b/c I DO WANT another child..."

and wasn't it possible you were worried about money or time? I thought at the start of this, in your posts, you did recall saying some wacky things you regretted -- but you defended in your posts...maybe those are what she's discussing?

She may win for sending the most mixed signals in the world...but it's better than the option of sending clarity with a good bye.

Do you ever talk about how YOU FEEL, NOW? Ever share that? It's a form of intimacy and disclosure builds intimacy.

Too many men "interview" women to see how the women feel, which is great---but if they never open up themselves, it's a bit unfair. The woman makes herself vulnerable, or naked, and the guy just takes it in, like he's gathering intel,

It's often well intended so I don't mean to bash guys here. The man doesn't want to appear self centered and I get that.

He wants his wife to feel heard and understood. But in your w's case, she needs to know how you feel.

so maybe, no more remarks about being a better dad..."with someone, someday" b/c they sound vaguely threatening like you'd "show her"....

If she brings up another child as a topic,

can you own the fact that YOU FEEL CONFUSED NOT about wanting another child but about including her in it, b/c she is confused about whether she wants to be with you AND


yes, you DO want to be a father again. You would prefer it be with her BUT you also know that whenever you speak of future plans, she backs down and gets distant.

So you are sort of damed if you do, and damned if you don't.

If that's how you feel, would it be so weird to tell her that?

She needs some accountability for what she expresses too.

Yes -I know Crimson, I know you have said you were a jerk in the marriage (per YOU, not me)and a lot of what you describe was very selfish, and I know that she was hurt often, and deeply.

I get it. You get it. We get it. Sooooo

What is it that she wants from you, NOW?


I'm thinking she wants you to keep courting her without paying attention to divorce papers, no matter what they say or what gets filed, etc. She wants to know if those changes of yours, were tactics for stalling/stopping a divorce

(b/c the timing of your letter the night before a hearing - sukked too, but yes, better late than never) OR

if they're real. How best can she test that, but by following through?

I know it's dramatic and painful - but in a weird way I can see why.

Just my opinion. I'd love to hear other's.

Sorry for the confusion Crimson but hey, there is still a whole lot of hope.

Her apology was spot on. And it's an improvement. It means she knows you have changed for the better and perhaps she wants to live UP to that in herself too. Hence HER doing the apologizing. You were not flawless in the discussion but you were pretty damn good.

The statement "I don't recall that but I'm sorry IF I hurt you" is only for batchit crazy things they accuse you of.

In your case, You know you DID hurt her - so just stick to saying sorry for THAT. And then make the point of how it'd be different in the future so she can envision it.

Even if she misheard something, it DID hurt her. Make sense?

((( )))


Yes, it does make sense. In my head I am "reviewing the tape" from Saturday night and I think I did a reasonable job of it. I DID let her know that I was aware of the fact that I hurt her (intentional or not) and that I was sorry and regretted it deeply. All very true.

To answer your question, no - I don't think I have FULLY told her how I feel right now. Well, as far as being confused anyway. IF I were to intimate that she is confusing me to some level (mixed signals, why do you say you want baby with ME, etc.) my concern is that she would become defensive. Allow me to elaborate.

One of the MAJOR communication problems I think we have is her level of sensitivity. She is very sensitive to criticism. Many times in the past I have tried to approach her when something is bothering me or if I am upset. If it relates to something she did or said she becomes very defensive and it used to escalate into an argument. You recall she said I "nit-picked her about everything"? Well, a lot of what she called nit-picking by be was really me trying to express my being unhappy about something (an incident, something she said, how I was treated, etc.). If was a major catch 22 because in MC a million years ago she said she wanted me to TELL her when I was unhappy or bothered because she didn't like me holding it in and getting "quiet". Then once I got in the habit of trying to tell her, she would accuse me if nit-picking, or being critical, or something along those lines. I was literally stuck.

SOOOO, if I tell her now that I am confused by some things I am betting that in her very raw, sensitive state right now she would read that as me being "me" again and criticizing her....not understanding where she is right now....having expectations.....and so on. Ergo, I am leery of really bringing it up now.

Regarding her apology - I should have just said "It's OK" and left it at that. I think I was trying to let her know that I was neither hurt nor angered by what she said. Perhaps I went too far in the effort by saying "you have nothing to apologize for". At the end of the day I think I was trying to be comforting.

25, when you say she wants me to keep "courting" what does that mean? Clearly when I tried over the last few weeks she kinda freaked out on me a bit. How do I do that in a way that is not over-powering or indicative of mismatched feelings? How do you court someone that is on the fence on whether or not they even want to be with you? I struggle with that. I know that doing NOTHING is not necessarily the right answer (though I have deliberately scaled back my texts/e-mails and I have never called just to call) - but I also know that doing too much is the wrong choice, too.

Today SHE call me at my office just to ask about how S did in the morning - or so she claimed. Then she went on about an experience she had with Hindu holy woman (yes, you read that correctly) Sunday evening at the home of a friend. It was actually a really cool story and when I said I understood why she was fascinated by it she responded "you used to not be" - but not in a negative way. That convo lasted about 30 minutes and I hung up feeling pretty good about it.

Anyhoooo - hope all is well.

Crimson

[ben11]

Crimson, just stopping by to say that your patience is inspiring. I've been following your story for months now and have been rooting you on from the bleachers. I am trying to channel this crazy ride that youve been on and apply what worked for you into my own sitch. It seems like piecing is a much more confusing step than any other. Please keep updating so I can pull out wisdom from your posts and those who are contributing too.

Take care.

[25yearsmlc]

Crimson

I'll post more later but wanted to "mark" this so I can find it faster.

It's late. TTYS and take care...

((( )))

[Crimson]

Thanks, Ben.

I am by no means the most prolific responder to the posts of others (don't feel like I have much to offer yet) but I try to make up for it by posting as honestly about my sitch (as I see it) as I can. If anyone can benefit from that, I am glad. And, frankly, it helps to get it out. I have NO idea where I would be right now without these boards. Seriously.

Crimson

[Crimson]

Just posting for the sole purpose of emptying me head a little and getting rid of some anxiety.

I have to drop S off at W's condo tonight. I hate these days - especially when they are following a long weekend with him. I don't think I can tell you how much it hurts for him to be gone and for the house to be empty. He is such a presence when he is there - and we have such a good time together. When he is gone, I feel truly lonely. Barring my W issuing an invite for something I won't see him again for sure until Sunday night. He is starting to do and say such interesting little things....."Daddy! Look!" was new for this week. I can't imagine a lifetime of this. It literally makes me want to throw up.

Heard from a mutual friend that W WANTS to be able to work things out but is concerned that she is still "emotionally numb" towards me. Hell, after the tongue-lashing I got Saturday night after the comedy show I would argue that she isn't emotionally "numb" at all. Rather, emotional....angry.....but emotional. Doesn't really matter, as it seems that the sands are pouring through the hour glass and there isn't much I can do.

L's assistant contacted me today to try to push back the date of our initial settlement hearing. I guess my L will be out of town. Having to begin with this stage, the "death rattle" of my marriage as I would call it, is really tough. Somewhere in my head I am still hoping for an 11th hour miracle.

Hope you are all well today.

Crimson

[RoRoinMD]

I am by no means the most prolific responder to the posts of others (don't feel like I have much to offer yet) but I try to make up for it by posting as honestly about my sitch (as I see it) as I can.

Crimson, you keep saying this. You've been around for a good little while, and have one of the most active threads here. You are getting lots of good advice from the vets, and I think you can offer more than you think. Just try it and see. Maybe sharing some of what you are receiving in your own thread could help some of the Newbies here (myself included). Who knows?

[jks]

Heard from a mutual friend that W WANTS to be able to work things out but is concerned that she is still "emotionally numb" towards me. Hell, after the tongue-lashing I got Saturday night after the comedy show I would argue that she isn't emotionally "numb" at all. Rather, emotional....angry.....but emotional. Doesn't really matter, as it seems that the sands are pouring through the hour glass and there isn't much I can do.
Crimson

I may be speculating but I see hope here for you, Crimson. It just seems she's confused but she most definitely isn't completely gone from you. That in itself is your 11th hour miracle. It is such a great sign that she agreed to spend a night with you at the comedy club just the two of you. That says A LOT!! And on top of that, she was opening up to you more. I think you're doing amazing...

And I definitely get the part about having to share your child for the rest of your life. That is heart-wrenching and gives me that pit in my stomach too. The positive is, you are present for him... which might not have otherwise happened if things were the same as before.

I have learned a lot from your threads... thank you for sharing your experience with all of us.

[Accuray]

SOOOO, if I tell her now that I am confused by some things I am betting that in her very raw, sensitive state right now she would read that as me being "me" again and criticizing her....not understanding where she is right now....having expectations.....and so on. Ergo, I am leery of really bringing it up now.

One technique you can use for something like this is to label it, that will diffuse the personal issues: "It seems like we're slipping back into the pattern where I tell you how I'm feeling and you interpret that as criticism. That pattern doesn't work well for us, how can we avoid it?"

Have a conversation about the dynamic as a way of having the conversation itself.

Accuray

[Accuray]

Went back and read about your Saturday night episode. I went through almost the exact same thing. Here's what I can share:

1) Nice / Angry: Your W will go through periods when she is happy to be with you and honestly has a good time. After she gets a little way down that path she'll mentally say "wait a minute, what the hell am I doing?" Then she'll slam on the brakes and turn on you in an instant -- often with no provocation. My DB coach told me that the WAS will "try on" connecting with you again, but will then greatly fear that you'll assume everything is now OK and will start having expectations of them, so they will yank the rug. There is no solution to this other than to muscle through it and don't take it personally. The best interpretation is that it's a great sign that they were trying on being nice to you to begin with versus avoiding you altogether, so don't let the backlash bother you.

2) Explosive anger / berating: I had a very similar conversation with W where she really let me have it -- talking about stuff I had said 10 years earlier, literally! Your W has a lot of pent up anger and frustration. Some of it is deserved. In other cases, it's stuff that has built up upon itself and gotten much worse in her mind than it really was. That kind of goes like this -- "I'm mad at Crimson because he did X, I'm a '2' on the mad scale." The next morning she wakes up and thinks about it again and decides "I'm a 3 on the mad scale, I'm going to leave him!" Then she takes some action and starts to doubt if she over-reacted, but now she's committed to what she's doing, so instead of thinking it's an overreaction, she convinces herself that the situation is a '6' instead of a '3' because that would better justify the reaction she's taken, and on it goes until things that started out small or as misunderstandings eventually feel to her like cardinal sins.

The very good news is that once this has been expressed to you, it's a load off of W's mind. That's not to say she's over it, she isn't, and you may get it again. The key is that it's no longer bottled up, festering, and continuing to feed itself. Instead, she's working through it and it's on the way out -- and it all needs to come out sufficiently to allow herself to refresh her perspective on your situation.

As painful as it was for me, it was a watershed moment in my sitch and I actually felt great relief when my W was screaming obscenities at me, because I was finally getting some honest and genuine emotion from her, versus just a cold business-like demeanor.

I will bet it was cathartic for her, I believe it was a good sign, and I think you should let it lie and not bring it up or poke at it at all. It may happen again, let it come. Actually, the more it happens the better because it's coming out. Over time it should diminish, and there's a chance she'll get better perspective on it later if you give her time to process.

Accuray