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Hey zig, it does appear you got the message in my post as bug pointed out.

I know how messed up it can be. How messed up it can feel.

The devil IS in the details... but those are NOT YOUR details...

Whether your H and his family continue to function and not implode... or explode... around their dynamic...

Well, their actions... and time... will tell... In the same way that I watch the pattern repeat itself over and over again with my parents, of which my father is a recovered alcoholic and my mother is still one... their chit can get crazy frustrating... and it keeps repeating... and one day, that pattern may stop... and it may stop because of the death of one of them...

Oh, I know messed up... from my father's family, my mother's family, my W's family...

And NO MATTER how much I've learned the dynamics and dysfunctions, the details as such... none of that helped them... it has only served me... in that I know many of the details...

The only thing I can do with that info is live my life in the way I want, regardless of THOSE details that DO NOT have to affect me...

You weren't necessarily in LRT prior to this "house" bomb... but it may be something to consider for you, as you protect yourself through this and find your ground and centre again... and figure out what you want, fix your own problems, and move forward...

independent of what is going on in your H's family life... nor whether you and your H ever reconcile...

make sense?

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Zig,

Yes we all do try to look out for each other around here. smile

I have read through stuff and I have some thoughts, please bear with me...

I am concerned that your S has stopped calling you mom and dad. While I know people who allow their children to call them by name, personally, I don't feel it is appropriate.

Does it bother you when you S calls you by your name (which you said he does when he is upset with you)?

Personally, I would gently remind him that to him, you are Mom. And that is what he is to call you. And don't respond when he calls you something different. It is a boundary of sorts and it is a way of establishing the roles in the family of a heirarchy of sorts as well as a term of endearment.

As far as what he calls your H, unfortunately, that is between them.

Additionally, while I understand you wanting to go to counseling in order to help your S, and ideally it would be wonderful if both of his parents went, it isn't something that you can push on your H. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't go yourself.

Often when we try to get them to see what the children are going through, even though our motives might be pure, it is seen by our S as a way to manipulate them into changing their minds.

Regarding your M, do you want to reconcile it or do you simply want an amicable D?

Probably a hard question to answer right now, especially considering your recent revelations regarding your H's family.

An important one nevertheless...

Regarding him and his family...

I was overwhelmed by the way you describe the chaos and the craziness. It is a hard thing to live with but not impossible as you have been doing it for many years now.

How has that craziness affected you? Really affected you?

I can tell you that simply leaving it isn't going to make it go away. It will still be there and it will still have the opportunity to take it's toll until you gain some understanding of the dynamics and decide how you are going to react to those dynamics.

Are the relationships you have with these people really serving you or are they hurting you?

Oh I could go on and on but I think that is a good enough place to start for now...



"Acceptance doesn't mean resignation. It means understanding that something is what it is and there's got to be a way through it."--Michael J. Fox
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The only thing I can do with that info is live my life in the way I want, regardless of THOSE details that DO NOT have to affect me...

yes i have realized that in my mind - and now have to in my heart too. i have to find myself again as i move forward

You weren't necessarily in LRT prior to this "house" bomb... but it may be something to consider for you, as you protect yourself through this and find your ground and centre again... and figure out what you want, fix your own problems, and move forward..

yes - as soon as i read your words- it was the right thing, i realized.

i'm not sure how to do it - do i say something to h to let him know? just yesterday we were talking about it and i said i wanted s to have good memories of us doing fun stuff together - and now today i realize i can't do that anymore.

maybe later i can put my thoughts down of what i would say to him, and you guys could help me with it?

thanks for all your support- i feel a bit broken right now - but underneath that i realize that i can do this and have no doubt about it

zig


me 46 H 38
M10yrs T 11
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BD ow 8/11
h filed 9/25/12


"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"

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Remember, we say here as part of DBing principles:

ACTIONS not words...

There are a few things to consider about this...

There is nothing wrong with clarifying with him that you need time to sort things out for yourself.

But in the same token, this is about you, not about him... you do not need to "protect" him by telling him WHY you become so distant from him...

Untangle yourself from that mode, because I think you protect him a lot, in many ways, and it may show up more than it is healthy for either of you.

Or... you will actually be using words as a way to manipulate him, that by saying you are distancing yourself, you are giving him advanced warning so that he will react and do something about it to pursue you... perhaps something that you might want... not a bad thing... just something to consider... ie. not his actions, but your intentions... in a passively manipulative way...

So if / as you transition into LRT, AS A WAY TO PROTECT YOURSELF and get out of the drama so that you are not reactive in your emotions (which showed up when you found out about the house)... the house is just a financially logistical thing, if you really look at it from a non-organic standpoint. It is when you put meaning to it... regardless of what ever meaning it may have for your H or his family or anyone else... this is about YOU putting meaning to it, which you may find you stop doing as you go through the LRT to detach...

Please continue to ask questions for clarity and to help guide you through this. We are always here to support you.

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thanks cat04
yes it bothers me a lot - terribly. i've seen it as s mimicking h's behavior. right after he moved out h started saying my name in this really odd way - as if he was forcing himself to say it. also overnight , after referring to me as "mama" when he talked to s, he started referring to me by my name but saying it very strangely

s started to do the same - especially now when he uses my name because he is disapproving of what i'm saying - it has the same intonation as h. it's sort of chastising and rebuking at the same time.

i like what you suggested about making a boundary with s and enforcing it by not responding - i never thought of it in terms of that. i will try that out very gently. i understand that s is a child, and he is doing it because he is so confused and affected by this sitch.

Often when we try to get them to see what the children are going through, even though our motives might be pure, it is seen by our S as a way to manipulate them into changing their minds.

i realized that, and as soon as h came back from his trip i told him that, i felt i had forced him to say yes, and that in the past when i would get impatient i would force the issue, and that when i noticed i was doing that, i wanted to stop, and that if he didn't want to go, i would be ok with it because there was no point in going unless he was a willing participant.

i expected him to jump at the chance of not going, but he insisted that it would be good for us.now i am not sure what his motives are - he began by painting such a different picture than the real situation in there, that it freaked me out. he cannot even own what he is doing right now. it was surreal to sit in there and listen to him COMPLETELY leave the affair out of the picture and act as if this was a mutual separation

Regarding your M, do you want to reconcile it or do you simply want an amicable D?

i don't know what i want - all i know is that right now i am so freaked out, by realizing everything that happened that i want to get away from him as far as i can. amicable divorce to me means that i have to be this person who pretends that i'm ok with everything and acts it all day long while he gets the satisfaction of [censored] up and walking away.
i guess i am not able to forgive him right now.

I was overwhelmed by the way you describe the chaos and the craziness. It is a hard thing to live with but not impossible as you have been doing it for many years now.

How has that craziness affected you? Really affected you?


if you were overwhelmed by what i described - it was the tip of the iceberg - can you imagine how overwhelmed i was?

really affected me? i was in bad shape physically with effects of the accident, but then i developed a psychogenic movement disorder - that took me 5 years to come out of. i completely shut down, and h took on the role of being the ultimate care taker - making sure he told me everyday how f*cked and disabled i was

i've just realized this morning, what triggered off this within me - a combo of events, but the tipping straw was that right before he left yesterday the last thing he said (he brought up finances at the door and how he was taking care of things for the summer) was "you do realize that you're just not going to be able to make it on your own for a very long time, at least a couple of years, right"

that was his response after i had just told him that i had come up with some ideas to make some money this summer, and i was pretty excited about contributing.

I can tell you that simply leaving it isn't going to make it go away. It will still be there and it will still have the opportunity to take it's toll until you gain some understanding of the dynamics and decide how you are going to react to those dynamics.

i realize that i right now, i feel really trapped. s is deeply entangled with them and everyone tells me how much i will hurt him emotionally if i take him away from here.

i'm also scared that if i do try to do that, h will go for me, and use my psychological history to prove that i'm an unfit mother. it's been made very clear that h and i are to share s exactly equally -

h is a decent dad - and apparently he's making an effort to reconnect with s - at least that what it seems like.

i believe he knows what his behavior has done to me on some level, and part of his reasoning to leave is that he is not good for me, nor i for him

sadly he chooses, rather than to be good for me and stay and work it out, to take off

[b]Are the relationships you have with these people really serving you or are they hurting you?[/b]

i think they are hurting me right now -

i just had a long session with mil on the phone - all the [censored] came out - bucketfuls of it - and she acknowledged what i said about h, his father and his grandfather. she actually said at one point, that she and i had to save s. i told her how scared i was and wshe said that i needed to get away as far from her son as i could - that now she saw what he had done, and why i was so unhappy .

she asked m why i didn't get out years ago and i said i was too scared to face what i was seeing and didn't know how to.

she told me that about a week ago she saw all of this and that's when she started weeping uncontrollably - that she finally accepted that h and i weren't going to be able to get back together unless h really made the effort to change himself.

we screamed and yelled at each other until we came to this. she even said she understood if s and i never come over to them when s is with me (s and i have been there a lot - through most of this sitch h never took him there - i was the one keeping the contact consistent).

i guess i could go on and on, but there's too much

the main thing now is how to go LRT - without it affecting s - what do i tell s, what do i tell h?

i am not angry - i just know that the least amount of contact with h - even a simple phone call about s, and pickup, lands me in a mess, because the uses every opportunity to add something in there.

mil said that she thought h was really really scared right now. i am too -

thanks for stepping in here cat04 - i can't tell if i've totally lost perspective, or if i just got complete clarity

even during the conversation with mil, i kept feeling like she was turning my words around and making them sound different to what they really were. in the end i was sobbing sorry to her - and i'm wondering way happened there


me 46 H 38
M10yrs T 11
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BD ow 8/11
h filed 9/25/12


"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"

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Originally Posted By: zig
Originally Posted By: Cat
Regarding your M, do you want to reconcile it or do you simply want an amicable D?


i don't know what i want - all i know is that right now i am so freaked out, by realizing everything that happened that i want to get away from him as far as i can. amicable divorce to me means that i have to be this person who pretends that i'm ok with everything and acts it all day long while he gets the satisfaction of [censored] up and walking away.
i guess i am not able to forgive him right now.


Forgivness... ( one of my favorite subjects smile )

Is a gift we give ourselves.

It isn't for them, it doesn't erase their actions, it doesn't absolve them of anything, it doesn't make us forget, but it SAVES us.

It is a way to release our anger and frustration, to let go of the baggage that will stay with us if we don't forgive.

Not forgiving allows us to hold onto judgement, anger, and self righteousness.

It will send us down the road to Bittersville if we are not careful.

Forgivness is a choice. It is freeing. It is also something we have to work at daily until it finally starts to come naturally.

There is no set way to learn how to forgive, it is something that is different for everyone.

For me, it was very spiritual. It was something that happened as I learned what unconditional love meant to me. I prayed daily for God to help me forgive, like He forgives, until that peaceful feeling was with me every day. Until the feelings of anger were no longer there.

While I can't force you to try to learn to find forgivness, I do encourage it. It is an important step no matter what direction you find yourself heading.

Originally Posted By: zig
if you were overwhelmed by what i described - it was the tip of the iceberg - can you imagine how overwhelmed i was?


Actually, I have a very good idea of how overwhelmed you are. I was codependent, in a family of crazy, drama seeking, alcoholic, backstabbing, codependent, abusive people (X's family).

It affected me badly. I had bouts with cancer every few years, migranes, skin eruptions, I was shut down many ways emotionally...

Sound familiar?

I wrote a story similar to yours many many years ago...

Originally Posted By: zig
Originally Posted By: Cat
I can tell you that simply leaving it isn't going to make it go away. It will still be there and it will still have the opportunity to take it's toll until you gain some understanding of the dynamics and decide how you are going to react to those dynamics.


i realize that i right now, i feel really trapped. s is deeply entangled with them and everyone tells me how much i will hurt him emotionally if i take him away from here.


I understand you feel trapped. I don't know if it is advisable or necessary for you to take your S from there. Or from them.

No matter how screwed up they may be, they are his family and it sounds like, a huge part of your lives.


Originally Posted By: Zig
Originally Posted By: Cat
Are the relationships you have with these people really serving you or are they hurting you?


i think they are hurting me right now -


If they are hurting you, then you need to find a way to minimize that. Until you are stronger and able to not be affected by the craziness...

Be careful with your MIL. She may be the one who sees things and makes sense, but she is still a part of that family and unless she too is working on strengthing herself to break the patterns of interaction within the family (I don't mean D but the overall dynamic), as you get stronger, she has the potential to become a problem for you.

My MIL was my best friend for almost 20 years. As I began to break away from the drama, to step outside of it, suddenly I was the devil in her eyes. Long story...

Originally Posted By: Zig
even during the conversation with mil, i kept feeling like she was turning my words around and making them sound different to what they really were. in the end i was sobbing sorry to her - and i'm wondering way happened there


Don't wonder, it is not a surprise to me. It goes along with the drama that exists in the family situation.

Also, you say you aren't angry, but don't be surprised if it comes. It is something that happens when we take our rose colored glasses off and see things clearly for what they are. It may be anger at the family, maybe at God, maybe at yourself, probably all of the above.

Work on being dark. There is no reason to say anything to anyone. It isn't something you are doing as a punishment, it is something that you are doing to get your own footing. Talk about financial matters and child matters.

Anything negative that gets said to you, develop thick skin. It is going to have to roll off of you like water on a ducks back.

Come here to vent your feelings, try not to show them in front of your S. For him, you need to be strong, caring, kind, confident. Be his rock. He will learn from your example.

This is not the end of the world. There is no reason to make any major decisions right now.

Keep working on your business idea. It sounds wonderful and I would love to hear a bit more about it.

Time really is your friend...



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cat04 - did you reconcile your marriage or get divorced - i can't tell , and i don't know your story, or are you still in the middle of your sitch? i'm sorry you went through what you described with our X's family. how did you recover from it? what helped you the most"

your advice to me is very wise - i have spent months "forgiving" h and now when he decided on this house thing - even though i said that it didn't bother me, i realize now, that it did - terribly and i woke up this morning just so angry with what he is doing and continuing to do and feeling even more angry with his parents for enabling him to continue doing it

i have to get a handle on my own anger and forgiveness towards him

the thing i struggle with is if he wants to leave, why doesn't he just make it right for all of us and just leave - openly and civilly. i know that's a futile question, in a way - no one has the answer, but i feel so manipulated by his actions - his being nice when he feels like it, his cold callous behavior when he doesn't - the back and forth has, i realized put me in a state that is really unhealthy

i still feel the pull of him so intensively - and that's not good for me, but i simply don't know how to get out of it.

mil told me a few minutes ago, that after our talk yesterday she was going to go home and tell them that she wouldn't buy the house. but when she got home fil told her that h had been over, and told them how happy i was about him getting the house and i was great with it. mil said she was really shocked and didn't know what to do (i was db'ing and responded to h by saying that i was happy for him and especially for s, because that would be more like a home for s and make him more comfortable being there - i didn't say anything about how i felt)

then this morning when i started telling her how i never wanted him back she thought well this is good then. and after i calmed down this afternoon and realized the reason i'm kicking and screaming is because i'm so upset about this house - and about them enabling him, i just went a bit crazy - and that i did want to save this marriage, and still thought it was possible, if h could see his role in things and WANT to be a better person with me.

i need some serious therapy here to get myself straight.

i'm so tired - i can't even finish describing everything so that i feel i'm putting it down coherently - i've just spent the whole morning going on about how he did the equivalent of mentally abusing me in some way, and now i've flipped over the other other side and still want to reconcile this. am i going crazy? or do other people do this too?

how do i go dark - he keeps s's stuff at his place and makes a point to bring it over - s came over to me today after school, but when i got there, his stuff wasn't with him (medication) which means that i have to call h to get it.

can i tell h that i am not happy about the house, or the separation and to stop saying that i am - i told him yesterday again, that the separation was good for us because it woke me up and made me start working on myself. his response was - yes i realized i don't have to take care of you anymore

are there any detailed descriptions about going dark and how to do it?

my little business? well as part of therapy for my fine motor skills i was knitting a lot and really got into it about 3 yrs ago - but the repetitive movements caused more problems, so i got into machine knitting, i've been making shawls and wraps and teaching myself for the last couple of years. friends started to buy the odd one here and there, and because i can't really go back yet to what i used to do (ceramic artist) i decided to start a little business and feel these shawls.
mil - who has a lot of contacts set me up with a store downtown (owned by a friend of hers) to have a sale there at the end of this month - and is really pushing to get me started. i have got in touch with one of our friends who is a pretty good ceramic artist (old friend of h's, with whom i did some stuff before the accidents) and he has agreed that i can come work in his studio in exchange for doing work for him, as i can't afford to set up my own studio right now. so between those two things i was hoping to start getting back to where i left off the day before the accident (i was preparing my ceramic work for the top design show int he country and had to give it up)

sadly h is right - it will take a while for me to start earning steadily - and i guess i'm really mad at him, for not only putting me in this difficult position, but him needing to emphasize it to me every chance he gets.

he sees me as so helpless - even when i am not. it's as if he needs to keep that image in his head all the time.

i wish i could regain all the confidence i used to have - - sigh - i guess that's the crux of the problem here.

thanks cat
zig


me 46 H 38
M10yrs T 11
S10
BD ow 8/11
h filed 9/25/12


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ever since our conversations here about the double bind - i've stopped trying to protect him or excuse his behaviors -and since it happened just before this house thing, the anger that i was barely starting to acknowledge, erupted after the house thing

at the therapy - i was completely looking at him in a new way - when i wasn't trying to excuse what he did, any longer, i started to see how he is hiding from himself and this persona that he creates for the rest of the world.

i guess i need to decide if i'll go to therapy with him - he did say "this is going to teach us a lot about ourselves ( i think he meant himself)

ever since his trip back, he keeps saying "we " everything and i am very suspicious about that

yesterday i did point out to him that we were on different paths. he kept asking me how i felt about the house. should i have said i preferred that he move back in here ?

i told him that i didn't get to decide what he did with his life, and the details of it any longer and it was the same for him about my life - was that the wrong thing to say?

i want to tell him that i'd much prefer to see him come back and work things out - yes i know - completely against db'ing and i'm not going to do that.

but he keeps asking and i don't know why he is asking - is he trying to feel out what i want or is it just the manipulation thing so he can continue to cake-eat?

is it better to be good friends, as he wants and hang out together so there are more opportunities to have good moments together, or go completely dark

i sort of went dark after the first 2 and 1/2 months and i noticed that he was much more pained and uncomfortable. then when i relaxed a bit and allowed things to be more friendly and let him come over and do stuff at the house, he seems to have relaxed more around me

so i'm confused about what to do. i know when i show ultimate kindness, i think he feels better towards me ( i wasn't kind during our relationship) but then i feel really manipulated when he turns around and drops a little bomb. am i just freaked out right now, and nothing really bad has happened and i've just blown everythingn out of proportion because of this house thing?

i just can't see what works and what doesn't - when i think it's working, he goes and does something like this - am i seeing it all wrong and that as you say, the house is just a logistical thing.

mil told me that when he asked them he said - i just don't have a "home" for s, and i'd like to set that up for him and asked for a loan. i wish they could have had the strength to say to him well - you do have a home for s and for yourself, you just left it and keep taking s out of it every other week


me 46 H 38
M10yrs T 11
S10
BD ow 8/11
h filed 9/25/12


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cat mentions going dark and a lot of people question that when there are kids. Actually, it IS possible to go 100% dark, but you need a mediator or friend / third party to do that with kids.

There are also ways to go dark and I think LRT covers them, along with the 37 rules, that allow you to go quite "dim" but not dark. Meaning that you don't start conversations, but then you don't avoid or ignore them if they are started by your H and do not revolve around the kids. That's how I did dark with my W, I did NOT engage in conversations that did not have to do with the kids or the separation agreement...

There were some instances where I did engage, and those generally backfired into spew from my W.

It all depends on your H, but he may lash out at you through LRT or he may mirror you and you'll feel like he's really leaving, once and for all... either way, stay LRT until your emotions are balanced. That's what it's about. You pick things up on the other side... but emotional reactions during this time could likely add fuel and send your H emotionally into space.

If you understand the dynamic in your H's family, then understand that he is / was playing two roles, probably for some time or possibly for the entire time you have known him.

One face being the one he showed you... the other the face he showed his family... neither the two would meet... perhaps you saw some of that as he would say something to you regarding his family, then would behave and say something different while you were all over there...

At this time, his loyalties are more likely strong(er) towards his family... and that... will spit you out faster than you can blink... so do not interfere with that... it will otherwise quite likely burn you...

So, read up on the LRT technique. The DR book spells it out quite well. Remember this is TEMPORARY, while you work out your own emotions...

Honestly... I was LRT for probably 6 months at least... I'm still not 100% engaged or detached... but I AM much, much less reactive... approaching 10% or less...

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oh, forgot to give you my thoughts on your questions... ALSO, him ASKING his parents for a loan... to set up the house...???

That is a HUGE difference than them stepping in and saying, "here. here is a house because you should be moving on and starting your own life and having a 'home' for s."

Can you see how it is different?

Don't be stuck on your H saying "we"... it could just be a language thing he's stuck on... I tried to use inclusive "we" language with my W in relation to things and a) it never caught on with her (which is fine, because it was somewhat manipulation even though my intentions WERE good), and b) I chose to stop saying we... because I think my W saw it as pursuing...

Anyhow, either way your H will likely stop using it... and when he does... you will probably notice and then post here that your H isn't saying "we" any more and how it upset you...

Just a heads up, if you will...

You could have told your H that you prefered to have him move back, but then that can be seeing as pursuing behaviour and does go against LRT and the 37 rules...

When in LRT, punitive actions and language could be seen by your H as pursuing behaviour, which goes against LRT... "How", you ask? Because it is attached to emotion, which your H will hear, and then he will presume that you still have feelings for him... and he then could come to the conclusion that you still love him and are playing some game of manipulation and control to win him back...

The WAS keeps testing the waters... as the LBS will temp check the WAS... to see if the other is still emotionally attached... the WAS spouse sees that the LBS is still there, in case they (the WAS) decides to return... being detached has to be complete and 100%, or they will know, or they will THINK that you are still available... and still pursuing them...

Boundaries may become very important, here. Would you be "friends" with someone who would treat you, the way your H is treating you? And I am not saying he IS or IS NOT treating you bad... or good... I'm asking because that is how you should be deciding whether you would be "friends" (not necessarily "good" friends) with him... Otherwise, darker is good, if it protects you from any emotional fallout...

As much as he probably wants space... he probably WILL be pained and uncomfortable if he believes you are gone from him... that is not going to suddenly mean that he's emotionally done with you... and while it scares many to do LRT because they feel the other spouse will just move on with their lives... it is visible, time and again... if the WAS wants out... they go... no question... but if they are hesitant or never push... LRT does not send them packing...

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