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have to let some stuff out first before answering everyone's wonderful posts


just came back from our appointment together. i can't really figure out what happened in there - i think it made h very angry. i know it did - he was feeling very defensive even before we went in there - and my describing some of s's behavior's made him even more.

at one point(because he kept interrupting and saying it wasn't true) i turned to him and said could we please agree to just listen to what the other one is saying even if we don't agree?

he started and jumped right in giving the impression that we had mutually separated and after about 10 mins, i said that maybe we should back up and clarify that he had chosen to leave. C asked if it was sudden thing and i said yes it was.

absolutely no mention was made by either of us about the OW. i can't figure out if i should have brought that up or not. was i protecting him by not bringing it up - i was waiting for him to bring it up

he did acknowledge that each person likes to see things through their own perception, and that since he had chosen to leave, he questioned whether he was choosing to see that s was totally ok because he wanted to see it that way.

when it was my turn i did describe a couple of the most concerning behaviors, and there was a lot of discussion about that . i could tell that h was resistant to hearing about them - too much too soon? and now i wonder if i should have said not as much or started more gently - of course he doesn't want to hear those things- there is no way to talk about them without it being about what he is doing.

we had an odd conversation in the car - and that's when i started to see how angry he was - he hid it really well in there. and burst out with so when will we see her again , how about 2 weeks is that ok with you. i was disappointed and about to say, wouldn't every week be better, but i stayed silent for a sec, and then he said, well i should stop asking you and just say what i want to do. i replied that i would appreciate that very much if he said what he wanted. and so he said he wanted to go after 2 weeks. and i said that would be fine.

the appointment ended where it was pointed out (by the therapist) that if h showed his emotions more openly to s , s could learn by modeling that it was safe for him to do so. i had made the point earlier that i would like to work towards s being able to show his emotions equally in both houses and not switch back and forth

in the car h made a big deal about how since i was emotional that was my relationship with s and since he was not that was his and that both of us were out of balance emotionally and we related to s from that imbalance -

i'm thinking about calling him back now and sort of smoothing things out and asking him not to see the things i say as a way of hurting him, but just as the facts of the situation. that even though a lot of stuff will come up that will be painful for us both to face, we should do this for s's sake.


me 46 H 38
M10yrs T 11
S10
BD ow 8/11
h filed 9/25/12


"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"

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So... your H had worked himself up for battle before stepping onto the field...?

Do you feel that is pretty normal behaviour for him, even prior to bomb?

Also, you say this:
"at one point(because he kept interrupting and saying it wasn't true) i turned to him and said could we please agree to just listen to what the other one is saying even if we don't agree?"

Is this a pattern for the two of you?

Do you always feel that he interrupts you?

Do you always feel better after chastising him for interrupting or for not listening... even though you do not actually know if he was listening...?

And at the end of your post... you mention that you are thinking of calling him back to smooth things out...

Is that normal behaviour for you? Your pattern...?

What path is that behaviour likely to lead you down?

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oh, and this...

"and burst out with so when will we see her again , how about 2 weeks is that ok with you. i was disappointed and about to say, wouldn't every week be better, but i stayed silent for a sec, and then he said, well i should stop asking you and just say what i want to do. i replied that i would appreciate that very much if he said what he wanted. and so he said he wanted to go after 2 weeks. and i said that would be fine."

Take another look at that.

Do you see how that COULD have turned out?

Do you see what went REALLY WELL there?

Could you describe your feelings right after that convo? I don't mean the frustration... but the feeling that you had... right after the frustration and anger left your body...

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zig Offline OP
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good KD, great questions you're asking me - i really need that

Originally Posted By: Kaffe Diem
So... your H had worked himself up for battle before stepping onto the field...?

Do you feel that is pretty normal behaviour for him, even prior to bomb?

yes , i'm beginning to realize that it might have been - only after the bomb, and during the weeks of talking, it came out that he had this mountain of a stack of grievances against me that stretched back to when we first met - and each of them were as huge asif they had just happened - in fact i was continually amazed at the things he kept bringing up - small things that i couldn't remember had even happened - for e.g.. after a 5 day road trip that was horrific where we slept in a tent on the side of the highway every night, we reached his friends house and i didn't want to go out to the bar with them that night because i was so tired and how hurt he was (aug. 2000). i looked at him in utter amazement, and after validating , later i pointed out to him how astonished i was that he had not let go of even one little thing for 11 yrs.

Also, you say this:
"at one point(because he kept interrupting and saying it wasn't true) i turned to him and said could we please agree to just listen to what the other one is saying even if we don't agree?"

Is this a pattern for the two of you?
it was in the past that we both interrupted each other. i've stopped doing that as a 180, but he continues to do so

Do you always feel that he interrupts you?

he always interrupts, and each time we are talking and i'm trying to say something, i've politely asked him if i could finish my sentence

Do you always feel better after chastising him for interrupting or for not listening... even though you do not actually know if he was listening...?

i felt terrible saying that, and now when you point out that it was chastising, i feel even worse that i didn't recognize that i was doing that. as soon as i start saying what he may not want to hear, he immediately interrupts and says that i am wrong and don't remember anything correctly, and i guess i feel really put down

And at the end of your post... you mention that you are thinking of calling him back to smooth things out...

Is that normal behaviour for you? Your pattern...?
yes, for both of us, but guess what, i did a 180 for myself and didn't call him. let him deal with his own anger and process and figure out his own stuff and if he doesn't want to go back, i will on my own.

What path is that behaviour likely to lead you down?

i realized if i do that kaffe diem is going to point out to me how i'm keeping myself in the double bind (yes , i must be getting it - if i came to that before i read your post) grin


so after reading your questions, i'm starting to wonder if i was reacting to his defensiveness, by being defensive or supercilious.

i wanted so much to be gentle and loving in there - and just as i write this i realize, that that's how i felt all along in this relationship - that i wanted to be gentle and loving and his demeanor and agitated, defensive way of behaving always made the worst come out in me.

i talked to my mom for a while on the phone and i was quite emotional and couldn't figure out why - and then i realized that his accusing me of being judgmental towards his leaving really really hurt .

i have stepped outside myself to not be judgmental, to try and understand where he's at. i have spent hours (of course unknown to him) listening to his and my family judging and criticizing him and tried to explain why these things happen. i have listened to hours and hours of him ranting and raving his anger at me and not once even retaliating with my own feelings. and i guess i just felt so utterly bereft in that moment.

i don't in anyway expect any acknowledgement from him for my efforts - not at all - but i guess, stupidly i was hoping that at the least he would realize at least that much.

the other thing i realized about why i'm so upset, is that it hit me that in order for us to go in there and talk about s's issues - we both have to be enormously brave -

he is being brave enough to go in there knowing that he will hear painful things about what this is doing to his son - which i already knew, but what i didn't realize about myself was that i would have to be brave enough to say those things in front of him AND face his anger at having to hear them

i have a lot to learn still. right now, i need to ground myself again and get myself back to a good feeling place.

thanks KD keep those questions coming please, if you have the time - they help me enormously

zig

btw - what does your user name mean?


me 46 H 38
M10yrs T 11
S10
BD ow 8/11
h filed 9/25/12


"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"

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zig Offline OP
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oops - i didn;t realize my responses in the box would be bolded too. hope it's not too confusing to read.

btw, how do all of you make the text a different color inside the quote box?


me 46 H 38
M10yrs T 11
S10
BD ow 8/11
h filed 9/25/12


"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"

Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,855
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zig Offline OP
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just saw this

yes i know how that could have turned out - that's why i stayed silent because in that moment when he said that what i heard was "i'm scared of this, i want to be brave but i need some time" that's why i waited

and as for responding - it would be great if you told me - it was a goddamn relief to hear what he wanted- 10 yrs of him NEVER, EVER saying how he wanted anything and then walking out on me because i controlled everything was SOOOOO frustrating

he did calm down right after that - or at least seemed a bit subdued - we pulled into my driveway right then so i don't know how it would have gone if we had still more time driving.

i don't know if i can put in words what went really well there - that i validated what he was really saying?

actually i wasn't frustrated and angry when he said that - i was thinking quite mildly to myself , slightly disappointed "oh that's too bad i would have liked to go every week but let him decide - it's harder for him to do this"

though when reading your question i think i realized that at that moment i was still caught up in what happened at the appointment and trying to deal with my emotions there. i was outwardly calm, but did notice that when he was going on about stuff in the car that i couldn't validate everything, and so didn't say much

right now i feel that his anger is directed at me, but it's really about other stuff - his own stuff and it's not mine to deal with - it will remain to be seen if after he processes for a few days, whether he will realize it also.

do you think that me wanting to discuss s's emotional difficulties during this time, and wanting to help s, is a direct judgment by me of h's behavior? that is what h is trying to say to me. i feel i need to draw a boundary here with h, but have to think about it for awhile to see exactly what it is.

this agitated defensiveness has come up consistently during this sitch whenever there has been any reference to s's difficulties during this time. not just towards me but also towards his parents when they've tried to let him know of their concern about s

is it better for h not to deal with it so directly? and rather i go and deal with it on my own?

sorry , my posts are too long (moan)

thanks KD
zig


me 46 H 38
M10yrs T 11
S10
BD ow 8/11
h filed 9/25/12


"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"

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thnaks ces - you are so right - and as i was gradually beginning to realize that the last few days, your words solidified this for me - and then i find myself thinking -same for h also

i'm so glad to hear that you are feeling more connected with your daughter again - in fact if it's anything like what i feel when i connect with s, then you must be in heaven

we expect so much (sigh) even while we keep telling ourselves no expectations...

((( )))
zig


me 46 H 38
M10yrs T 11
S10
BD ow 8/11
h filed 9/25/12


"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"

Joined: Feb 2012
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zig Offline OP
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thanks nemo - i wish i had your skills - i'm terribly lacking in that dept., but am starting to see what i do wrong here.

you really have the whole spectrum to deal with between the three don't you?

i wish i had gone to see this therapist months ago to help me separate and sort out my emotions from s's during this sitch

about changing the topic: well, s changes it immediately - so there's no opportunity. i guess he's been telling me for months that he simply does not want to discuss it at all , period and i'm frustrated and i have to let it go and let him come to me

thanks for your help and hope your'e doing well

zig


me 46 H 38
M10yrs T 11
S10
BD ow 8/11
h filed 9/25/12


"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"

Joined: Feb 2012
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zig Offline OP
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yes - finally after all this time i get it - i still have so much to learn and i'm so glad i'm here and getting all this help from everyone here.

i wonder if we keep asking because we are insecure and need validation from others in that moment...

thanks labug:)
zig


me 46 H 38
M10yrs T 11
S10
BD ow 8/11
h filed 9/25/12


"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"

Joined: Feb 2012
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zig Offline OP
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journaling -
i have had a really emotional afternoon and evening - can't really figured out what has triggered me off so bad.

find myself thinking it's time to give up completely. i feel that he has just been manipulating these past few days - being really nice and friendly, saying he wants to resolve our problems and then behaving as he did at the appointment.

i just called to say goodnight to s and he just gave the phone to h saying i needed to tell h how to do something. h came on the phone and acted all relaxed and friendly - as if none of what had happened earlier occurred. i didn't tell him what to do, but after h told me what s was going on about i said that since he was on the phone i would like him to call me later because i'd like to go through a few things with him

i need to tell him that it's not okay for me that he "orders" s to do or be a certain way with me. one of the biggest concerns for me with s's reaction to the separation has been s not calling us mama and dad. when i brought that up today at the counseling, h leaped on it (as he always does) - that was when i asked if we could each have a chance to say what we want. i described how it was and was in the middle of saying that recently s had started to call me mama again, when h interrupted and said it was because he told s to and that's why he is calling me mama now.

the conversation got sidetracked and i never went through what i still had to say, but now i am left with this outraged feeling about what he did. that is one of the most significant effects (s told mil and me right after the separation started in an extremely angry voice that he never ever wanted to hear the words dad or dada again and don't we dare say them) that we see in s, and as far as i can see h is trying to manipulate s into removing that so that it can seem that things are better than they are?

mil told me today that last week h was there telling her how great s was doing and she said that she didn't really think he was. h apparently reacted extremely angrily and stormed out. so this is definitely an issue that i am going to have to face here.

and now i'm wondering is he going to take what i say in counseling and then work on s to remove those behaviors so that things seem better to us all.

suddenly i am so deeply angry with him - this appointment was about s and he made it about himself and he is so selfish that i cannot get over it

i have been crying off and on all evening - i think from feeling helpless and also because i keep finding myself thinking i am so done with this man - the things i'm seeing and the messages i am getting make me see more and more that he maybe has been like this always and i was too scared to acknowledge it because i felt that i had to stay and make it work because we had a child

i feel so discouraged today - and i'm so close to telling him that i am done, done.

at the same time i feel so confused because even while i'm feeling that i'm thinking to myself what if that's the wrong move and it sends him away completely

maybe all this was defensive on his part because he is feeling so guilty.

sheesh talk about second guessing myself constantly - this sitch is making me into a nutcase


me 46 H 38
M10yrs T 11
S10
BD ow 8/11
h filed 9/25/12


"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"

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