I had an IC session today that felt really empowering while I was in session. But now that I am home I am so sad, just cried in the shower so my S4 wouldn't see me. She said that she really believes that he never loved me the way I love him.
Get a new c. Sorry but I've had it with these "throw in the towel and start fresh" people who know nothing of solving TOUGH problems.
If it is at all complicated or takes more than a month, they tell you to bolt or accept it, b/c THEY don't know what else to say or do. THEY get frustrated and can't support long term efforts...
Explain DBing to the ones you interview and that you would greatly prefer saving the marriage/family and you want help to leave no stone unturned. IF it comes to divorce THEN they can help you adjust and accept...
I mean She's a mind reader who can see into your h's heart in the past?? Good grief.
And having her as YOUR Ind counselor AND HIS - AND the marriage's is, imo a conflict of interest.
She said to believe what he is doing right now ( looking for a place to move out to, seeing a divorce lawyer), even though we renewed our vows in August and he was sobbing, on and on about how much joy he felt with me.
More mind reading on her end. The fact is this -You DO have to deal with what he's doing now,
but that doesn't mean he isn't conflicted or that your past was all a lie. Sheesh...
She said we both have a lot of issues from childhood that we are dealing with, and we can never have a healthy relationship because he isn't motivated to work on his baggage. OMG---so go work on YOUR issues with someone who will show you how to be the best YOU...and does not foretell the future with your h in such a dismissve way. Or tell you to give up on a marriage b/c "HE won't play" with you. IF we all thought that we HAD to have our spouses' participation as she says, we'd all be divorced by now.
One tenet of DBing is that YES -ONE person in a two person relationship can change the dynamic in the relationship - by changing themselves...
it's sort of self evident
but so many of us are too busy keeping score about OUR sacrifices and how the other one isn't pulling their weight, and "what about ME and MY needs??"
So we stop doing OUR own work--but don't. Keep working on YOUR STUFF no matter what so you know you will come out of this healthier and stronger and, let's face it MORE attractive...
She says you have childhood issues. (Who doesn't??) Well that's fine - so go work on them when you have time
b/c you are about to have a whole lot more "issues" if your m fails AND So will your kids... DBing is about doing the behaviors that help the marriage - and fewer or none of the ones that hurt the marriage. DBing is solution based, it is NOT focussing on your past or the trauma of your childhood or a personality disorder or the death of a parent...THAT stuff matters but it does not help you OR YOUR MARRIAGE NOW
b/c NOW TODAY--DO WHAT HELPS THE M, AND DON'T TO WHAT HURTS...simple, but radically different for SOME therapists..
so NO, you do NOT HAVE to solve all your childhood issues OR REHASH THE PAST and relive the frickin' nightmares from that time in your life-- to improve your marriage.
Last week our car went to the mechanics. We want to sell the car but we know it has "issues." So the car guy calls with a long list of problems with the car, which is an older car.
I said "fix it enough so it runs and I can sell it' b/c if we fix ALL the things we think WERE wrong with it in the past AND are now wrong (and assuming we are right the first time)
it'll take forever and TIME MATTERS..." Same for your m. IF you have too many "buttons" or a bad temper, work on it. But the idea of "repairing your childhood in order to work on your m" or making the past all fine, is an unsuccessful strategy.
Ask yourself if your marriage has improved by seeing this MC. She may give you good pep talks to help you realize you really will be alright no matter what your h does b/c in the end, YOU are in charge of your happiness. That's great.
But why give up on the m now? Don't leave any stone unturned and then at least YOU wont' have regrets.
You have children and you want to do right by them. IMO, it'd be smart to Try a MC who is more pro-marriage than this one.
Tell the new one that short of physical danger, you want to give this at least a year (or however long you can do it--or use the divorce timeline as a guide or whatever) and ask for help getting you to that point in time.
So they don't fear that you'll be stuck in one place endlessly seeking their advice on a lost cause--which is THE MC's fear...but if you say "for this amount of time help ME CHANGE into my best self and to be open the m reconciling, then they ought to stop telling you to give up.
I have a huge problem with one counselor treating 3 different conflicting "entities"...
May I ask if she is in her first marriage and if so, whether it's lasted more than 5 years?
She said to just move on with getting healthy and the kids will be ok. I feel like we have failed them as parents. She wants me to move on (she is also his IC and our MC). Sometimes I don't know up from down after I come out of there.
has she read the books of MWD? What's her opinion of them?
Or Retrovaille?
I would not go to MC with a marriage counselor who wasn't intimately familiar with both of these things.
My advice may sound dismissive & I apologize if it does.
But I think one of your marital problems is that you have an unhelpful mc.
That's how I see it. Sorry!
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
best thing I did for the kids during our ordeal was taking them on two trips
without h. First we took a short ski holiday and rented a cabin with a hot tub and huge flat screen. We skiied and played games and watched movies and went into the hot tub with the snow... had a fun time WITHOUT H which showed the kids "We are a fun family, with or without all the members"....heck, we military families would kill ourselves if we thought every person in the family had to be there in order to have fun or relax.
If you can get a friend or sister to go with you DO SO but don't NOT go...
DO GO...and I suggest you not take your h b/c he won't be the fun guy you are dreaming of, and by you going and having fun and making memories for your children
you give him something to miss WHILE you make your new life fun.
I also planned a trip for our 25th wedding anniversary although it became apparent h would not be here for it. So I adjusted and took my 3 kids to ITaly and we had among the best vacations ever.The planning itself cheered me up once I realized we were going no matter what...talk about empowering.
The trip was wonderful....No tension and no fights. A great time...(and boy did it bother my h! He probably resented it too, but I found out later that he was constantly trying to reach us... but I was not concerned about it.)
We went to a stimulating place I'd always wanted to see, with no reminders of h and I rarely thought about our marital problems when we toured Florence and Rome...like maybe never.
Go! HAVE FUN!
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
25, when I logged onto my computer and saw you posted I got more excited than if it were a text from my H:) I always know it's going to be some golden advice.
I feel like in the past 24 hours I have actually started to get it- what DB is all about. I was reading everyone's posts like crazy, devouring Laura Munson's book and I had a session with my DB coach (shot out to Chuck).
I was reading the resentment post from Accuray right before my coaching session, and I think for the first time I was able to come from a place of calm. There was also a line in Laura's book where she says, "I don't buy it" in response to what her husband is telling her, which by the way is EXACTLY what mine is saying. It kind of all clicked when I was talking to my coach.
He told me to treat my husband as if it were my brother talking, that way I wouldn't react. He told me to do exactly what my husband doesn't expect ( obviously a reaction).
So last night I called the hotel and explained the situation and got a refund ( it was a timeshare presentation so both husband and wife had to be present for the "deal"). I send my husband a text "great news- got out of our reservation and our money back! I think you should take that mountain biking trip you have been talking about!" He is always saying that he really wants to take a guided biking tour in Utah so I printed out a schedule of trips for that week (we have already taken the time off work) and taped it to his door.
I am going with the kids on the trip, my brother offered to go (I have 3 brothers, 0 sisters). I am super close with my brother, but I want this to be about me and the kids, and like 25 said, showing him that we are a family with or without his presence.
This morning when he was leaving for work he said he found a place to rent and he needed our tax return for income verification, I said, "no problem" and grabbed it for him without any attitude. I asked him if he was going to go on the mountain biking trip when we were in Hawaii and he said, "It's not the right time". I said- "I think you should go, it will be fun!"
Tonight was his night to watch the kids, and he really seemed more engaged than I have seen him in a long time. We passed each other in the kitchen, and it was a little akward, he looked sad and usually I would hug him but instead I left for yoga.
So I feel like it has been a good day.
About the MC, I laughed out loud at your comments! I keep trying to figure her out. I think she may be trying to get me to detach, because she "slipped" he other day. I brought in a video of our vow renewal (last August, 10 years) and she said that she had a visceral reaction to seeing it, and she also had tears in her eyes. She said "You may have to just ride this out", but then she caught herself, and said "I don't want you to have any false hope though".
I asked her if I needed to see a lawyer at my session and she said, "not yet". So maybe she is on our side, but wants to fix some unhealthy beliefs we have about marriage and each other? Or is my head in the sand?
I worry about switching because my husband it totally on board with going to her. At this point, since he wants a D ( so he says) I think if I wanted to switch he may quit going. We see her together for 2 hours every Monday, I see her for 2 hours every Tuesday and he does an hour during lunch on Wednesday. This has been since January. I think for now I will let her work on my childhood stuff and get my support for the marriage here with my follow DBers, my coach, my friends and myself.
I am finding a lot of strength in everyone's stories, thanks for posting them so honestly.
Goodnight
M 37, H 37 M 10, T 12 S 4 D 2 3/14/12 ILYBNILWY 4/2/12 H consults a L, files nothing 4/26/12 H moves to his new place
25, when I logged onto my computer and saw you posted I got more excited than if it were a text from my H:) I always know it's going to be some golden advice. Thank you. Whatever help I can give, is only b/c of being here, having a great DB coach and supportive mc (eventually b/c he was my 3rd)) and even a good L who was on my side--the side of the m. She got me to file for a sep instead of a divorce. so the assets could be protected (H might have mortgaged the house at one point to invest with his "heroes" and he'd have thought it was brilliant) but she talked me into not ending things then & there, b/c she had "a feeling"...
I feel like in the past 24 hours I have actually started to get it- what DB is all about. I was reading everyone's posts like crazy, devouring Laura Munson's book and I had a session with my DB coach (shot out to Chuck). Good. Laura Munson sometimes gets accused of holding too many people back from "reality" or not accepting what is. I guess that's probably true for some who see signs of hope when there really are none, But OTOH she also shows you how to detach. Plus sometimes you have to follow your gut, not what you WANT to believe but what you really don't believe - as in, when you "just don't buy it".
I was reading the resentment post from Accuray right before my coaching session, and I think for the first time I was able to come from a place of calm. There was also a line in Laura's book where she says, "I don't buy it" in response to what her husband is telling her, which by the way is EXACTLY what mine is saying. It kind of all clicked when I was talking to my coach. He told me to treat my husband as if it were my brother talking, that way I wouldn't react. He told me to do exactly what my husband doesn't expect ( obviously a reaction). Good stuff! ^^^^
So last night I called the hotel and explained the situation and got a refund ( it was a timeshare presentation so both husband and wife had to be present for the "deal"). I send my husband a text "great news- got out of our reservation and our money back! I think you should take that mountain biking trip you have been talking about!" He is always saying that he really wants to take a guided biking tour in Utah so I printed out a schedule of trips for that week (we have already taken the time off work) and taped it to his door. This ^^^ was perfect. Now back off telling him what else he "Should" do (or you'll be "shoulding all over him", a funny phrase but it makes a point).
Don't fuel any negatives or accusations of being controlling or pushing him one way or "trying to make him feel guilty" (which he MIGHT think in his state of mind).
You handled the dilemma and he's free to do whatever he wants with his time...your cheerful reaction to solving the "mutual" problem was great. Now what he does with his free time is NOT YOUR PROBLEM... make sense?
I am going with the kids on the trip, my brother offered to go (I have 3 brothers, 0 sisters). I am super close with my brother, but I want this to be about me and the kids, and like 25 said, showing him that we are a family with or without his presence.
and showing you and the kids the same thing.
Good for you! Oh be prepared for him to show 1) no reaction or 2) a resentful one as if HE is a martyr....let him. This is his "task" and it's his lesson to learn. You are not punishing him. You are just drawing a line around you/the kids so he can't wreck what's inside b/c HE is miserable. The happier you seem (within reason) the more he'll wonder if this might just be HIM after all...
which he may have known back at the vow re-newals and clung to you more.
***SIDENOTE - I can't help but comment that more than a few couples renew their vows within a year of one of them walking away. Seems like an oddly high number. I don't have empirical evidence, just anecdotal. But many couples here discuss their renewals and I have never seen one in a marriage that lasted, now that I think of it.***
But now he's still sad and depressive and mayne seeing himself for the ingrate miserable person he's becoming is so much easier when they can blame YOU and their chiidhood... rather than realizing this is a pattern he learned in his childhood-
he was not happy then and isn't happy now and he cannot emotionally handle being THE cause of his present misery. (Maybe it would mean he "caused" some of his childhood problems and that makes him a bad person...I'm not a shrink. Just spitballing here...)
This morning when he was leaving for work he said he found a place to rent and he needed our tax return for income verification, I said, "no problem" and grabbed it for him without any attitude. I asked him if he was going to go on the mountain biking trip when we were in Hawaii and he said, "It's not the right time". I said- "I think you should go, it will be fun!"
Tonight was his night to watch the kids, and he really seemed more engaged than I have seen him in a long time. We passed each other in the kitchen, and it was a little akward, he looked sad and usually I would hug him but instead I left for yoga.
So I feel like it has been a good day.
About the MC, I laughed out loud at your comments! I keep trying to figure her out. I think she may be trying to get me to detach, because she "slipped" he other day. I brought in a video of our vow renewal (last August, 10 years) and she said that she had a visceral reaction to seeing it, and she also had tears in her eyes. She said "You may have to just ride this out", but then she caught herself, and said "I don't want you to have any false hope though".
I asked her if I needed to see a lawyer at my session and she said, "not yet". So maybe she is on our side, but wants to fix some unhealthy beliefs we have about marriage and each other? Or is my head in the sand?
Please hear me now...SEE A LAWYER ASAP...your h already has. What are you waiting for?
KNOW THIS---seeing a lawyer is empowering b/c you get information that allays your fears and panic. You need not DO anything but get information. But do it.
The fact that your h has seen one (and most men make far more financial plans before leaving their families, than women do when they leave their families. FAR MORE) It cannot hurt you to go see a L and I'm shocked she said "not yet".
WHY NOT "SEE" A L? Why not?
HOW CAN IT HURT YOU TO KNOW YOUR RIGHTS AND IF NEED BE, PROTECT YOURSELF?? You don't have to tell him you went, and you don't have to file a thing...
but make copies of the tax information and income verification etc and give it to YOUR L (and don't you dare use the same one).
When my h was in his full blown MLC and wanted to "invest in the GOLD RUSH" up on the tundra (his words, I swear) and said I was "Just being negative"...
the legal separation prevented him from being able to mortgage our home and get at anymore marital assets without my knowing/consenting. Believe me his ordeal cost us a fortune as it was. He got mad at the time but in a few weeks seemed to have things sink in more. But I did not do it to fix us or get a reaction. I did it mainly for my children, and also for some peace of mind. My fears were getting the best of me at night.
So 2 years ago (4 years after the sep filing) he blurts out, "Sure am glad WE did not mortgage our house to buy into their awful partnership" ....like he has amnesia about why "we" could not do that.
I said nothing b/c sometimes that's the most loving thing to do. But in HIS memory it was some mutual choice.
POINT IS - HE IS GLAD "WE" made that choice...wacky, huh? Protect your kids and yourself and do right by them. You will never regret doing that.
But if he's hiding assets or, God forbid, has an OW and is setting aside money for THEIR future
or is just being really selfish and wants to sell hotdogs on the beach and give you a % of THAT income, you need to protect yourself.
I would go see a L and not say a word about it to him OR YOUR MC, Until if and when you must. If you feel compelled to tell her (why?) then say you "got some useful information" and leave it at that.
I found it so empowering to know that I was not going to lose our house or have to move the kids til the oldest d had finished high school. I also learned that h was going to have to pay a lot more than either of us knew.
So frankly, I was more than relieved...and when HE finally saw a lawyer he started stepping back from his "mission" b/c oops it might cost too much. I think it was a cold splash of water in his face. That was some "reality therapy."
I'm really confused as to why your mc would 1) effectively give you LEGAL advice now... and 2) tell you not to see a L, but to move on otherwise.
That's backwards.
The ONE piece of advice that is safe in nearly all situations is to see a L and get information. Not to necessarily TELL ANYONE but to see one.
Knowledge is power. IF You do see a L, I say you do not tell your mc. Won't she be obligated to tell your h or does she play a "Keeping SOME secrets" game? Frankly, I don't trust that saving your marriage is her goal.
( Your mc is beginning to remind me of the MC on First Wives Club.)
[/b] I worry about switching because my husband it totally on board with going to her. sure he's on board- b/c she is enabling him to go on his merry way! He feels no remorse and she doesn't get him to even second guess about his own happiness down the road, when the reality of the mess HE will have created, hits him.
At this point, since he wants a D ( so he says) I think if I wanted to switch he may quit going. THEN WHAT ARE YOU LOSING?? Newsflash, things are not going well in the mc sessions...she's not even slowing him down...do you get that?
We see her together for 2 hours every Monday, I see her for 2 hours every Tuesday and he does an hour during lunch on Wednesday. This has been since January. I think for now I will let her work on my childhood stuff and get my support for the marriage here with my follow DBers, my coach, my friends and myself. well, I sure would not expect any improvement in the marriage BECAUSE of her.
I am finding a lot of strength in everyone's stories, thanks for posting them so honestly.
Goodnight
you are welcome! Good luck and keeping on keeping on.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
ok, I will make an appointment with a L today. I pretty much know what she will say, my best friend just filed and I went with her to her first appointment (3 hours long). I have always been in charge of our finances, so he can't really hide anything from me at this point.
This ^^^ was perfect. Now back off telling him what else he "Should" do (or you'll be "shoulding all over him", a funny phrase but it makes a point).
ok, noted on the "shoulding", thanks.
( Your mc is beginning to remind me of the MC on First Wives Club.) Is this good? Should I watch it? Need a good laugh today
The happier you seem (within reason) the more he'll wonder if this might just be HIM after all...
I keep trying to remind myself of that.
Thanks again:)
M 37, H 37 M 10, T 12 S 4 D 2 3/14/12 ILYBNILWY 4/2/12 H consults a L, files nothing 4/26/12 H moves to his new place
Ok, so I am really busting out all my newly acquired DB skills, but I am really struggling right now! I was calm and cool this morning when my husband and the father of our children informed me that he got a place with a lease that starts next weekend. Not only is it 20 minutes from here and by the beach (he said he will always live 5 minutes away so he can be here in minutes in case of emergency), it is a 3 bedroom place that is about 1,000 over the budget we talked about. The lease starts next Saturday. Here are our emails from this am, please help me decipher....
(I changed names to brother or therapist ) My email after him tells me he got the place: [color:#FF99FF]Ok. I would like to talk it over together with Therapist, the timing of things. We need to tell the kids & our professional aquantiences but I would like to discuss timing. I have been strong for the kids, myself and My brother. ( My brother was crying the night D2 was hitting her head on the floor screaming Daddy). Therapist told me that I will be the one that determines how the kids handle this. My mood will determine the mood of the house, for everyone living there, so I am trying my best to make a place of peace and love. Yes, they will definitely be negatively affected, that is not disputed in the studies. But they can learn resilience and self love from me, they will learn how to handle adversity from me, and that is my focus now. I am strong, but I am human. I have emotions and they are still raw. I thought things were fine until March 14th, less than a month ago. According to Therapist you have been emotionally checked out for quite some time, so this is much easier for you. So I want the timing of telling the kids and the "world" to be just right so I can stay the strong, consistent Mommy the kids need. Thanks.[/color]
Husband's email: Just because I got a place does not mean we have to do this right away. We can take time and ease into this. You are an amazing woman. And you are being very very strong.
I am glad we can discuss this and figure out what is best for you and the kids. I think your ideas are correct on timing and telling them. Thank you for being so strong.
My reply to him: [color:#FF9900]I just transferred the money for you, it will be in the wells account tomorrow. I don't like the thought of so much wasted money, so I think that you should move as soon as it's your place. We will be fine. That way I have my brother here for a bit to help me through the transition to single parenting. He leaves when the kids and I are in Hawaii and doesn't get back until the middle of June. Do you need some moving boxes? I can order you a set from costco. We will talk to Therapist on Monday about telling the kids since you are moving next Saturday. I am also doing some of my on research on the subject. Now is when I don't feel strong, when I think of their little faces:([/color]
[/color] His reply: I am very sad. I dont want to move next saturday. I will be in las vegas anyways. I am planning on seeing friend and spending time with my parents. this is hard for them as well.
I think we can plan on after you get back. I will just start to move things from the garage they dont know about and get it ready.
I dont feel strong right now either. i dont think we should tell them until we can do it in a good way. Lets talk to Therapist.
I am hurting too. I am sorry.
OK- anybody? Anyone? Am I handling this right? I would love a male perspective on what he is writing. This feels like a bad dream.
Thanks
M 37, H 37 M 10, T 12 S 4 D 2 3/14/12 ILYBNILWY 4/2/12 H consults a L, files nothing 4/26/12 H moves to his new place
what's with helping him to move? Why not simply express surprise that he'd go over the amount you both supposedly agreed upon? (AND see the L asap before he spends even more. If the debt gets split that means half of the over spending will be on you...gee, kinda-makes you want to get a flatscreen...
WHy would YOU order boxes for him? Although I get that you want to be strong, do not aid him in leaving you and your children. Plus it sure lets him off the hook. LET HIM FACE the music...
I am not sure about this next comment but this is how it strikes me at the moment-- stop telling him that thanks to YOU the kids will be fine...
Despite him, you and the kids will be fine down the road. But he is doing some damage for sure.
The upside is that if your choices are liviing with a man like this and acting like this, the rest of your life
or building a new happier more balanced life, w/the possibility of a smart strong man in the future -OR NOT- then yes you sure will be better off. ANd that is all up to you, not your h.
So be strong but don't tell him about it. Remember the 37 "rules" and that you have had an awakening--
you will be fine no matter what HE does. HE does not decide your mood tonight or happiness tomorrow or how your life goes.
YOU DO. You are in charge of your happiness.
I didn't get why the increased cost made you want him out sooner-b/c it's irritating? I get that...
Oh the marriage counselor on The First Wives Club (the movie itself is hilarious and empowering for women w/a great ending) but the "marriage counselor" was the OW of one of the wive's h's...and she "counselled the both"...
I was being sarcastic, sorry!
Back to earth- Let him make his big boy choices and move out on his own but see a L asap. He is already spending more than you two can afford (Plus HIS legal fees and yours)
so if I were him (but rational) I would not sign a long term lease b/c SOON you will be getting a chunk of that paycheck and he needs to adapt to that reality. The sooner, the better.
That's the one downside of women handling finances--the WAHs always think there's more than there is...for THEM...
I'd also expect him to plan more fun trips for himself and his buddies & spending like it's not a problem. Many of his buddies will be older losers who are thrice divorced OR fun, single and younger. Ironically, he may notice that a lot of them are looking for what he just left behind...
((( )))
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
I'd also expect him to plan more fun trips for himself and his buddies & spending like it's not a problem. Many of his buddies will be older losers who are thrice divorced OR fun, single and younger. Ironically, he may notice that a lot of them are looking for what he just left behind...
Just wanted to say that 25 is right on the money as always. This is my H exactly!
