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Ok, so I was not too detached today...W answered the phone in her "old self" voice that just took me to remembering the W I love, and miss.

I was kind of cold to her this evening, I had a lot on my mind besides the R and her (new meetup group meeting (I'm kinda shy, so meeting new people can be a tad stressing at first), finances, taxes, work, etc, blah, blah), but she and R was mixed in there...

Driving to the meeting she called me and wanted to know if my mood had anything to do with her, after explaining the "non-her" things, I did just say, yes, I miss my best friend, not knowing where we stand is hard, and that I am not doing well with detachment today.

Now I am worried that may have been a backslide, OR, hoping that it was the right thing to say, that in MLC every now and then its good to let them know how you feel and what my experience is in this ordeal...she has been more her self lately...idk...I just went off instinct I guess.

Help!!!! any opinions?


In the depths of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer. - Albert Camus

Uncertainty is the very condition which impels people to unfold their powers.-Eric Fromm

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Hi there T^2,

You know I think it's good to have moments of truth with them, especially if they are the ones that have asked for that clarity in the first place.Which that sounds like that's what she was asking for, clarification. You were very honest about it and I think that was healthy for you to express that and for her to hear.

I think where a backslide could happen is if we don't drop it after it's been addressed or keep trying to hammer it out....like I had a horrible tendency to do. My problem in that was never feeling listened to by stbx for years.So much stuff I needed and wanted to talk about. When I'd finally get his attention, keeping it simple was very hard for me.

It's hard when you see the person you remember and loved so much surface again. That's something Im struggling with now as well. I don't know what to make of it, so Im just taking it as an oppurtunity for me to keep sorting my feelings out towards him.


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Thanks Kimmerz, it did do me some good.

Later we talked about it a bit more, today I have let it go...I still have the urge to hammer things out then and there, but I am resisting that tendency better than I thought I could. Today has been good interaction verbally, but she is avoiding eye contact.

Say, if you get a few minutes, could you look over my sitch, 180's, etc and let me know what you think...what am I missing, what could I be doing better...? Your experienced and female perspective would be much appreciated...Thanks!!

smile

T^2


In the depths of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer. - Albert Camus

Uncertainty is the very condition which impels people to unfold their powers.-Eric Fromm

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Hi T^2,

Sure I will be happy to help. I'll read and post back to you!

Kim


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Hey T2

I read over some of your posts from the beginning. From my perspective I don't think you could've done anything better than what you've already done! You listened to what she had to say, applied it to yourself and made changes in you to help the marriage and changes for you as well.

You really have worked on you which in itself is wonderful. In regards to her online affairs, I can tell you without a doubt it never had anything to do with you in the first place. Maybe she made it sound like it did but it was never you.

What did you learn about "proven desirability"? Was this something that was suggested to you in the book to prove to her, or is this something she was searching for in her online affairs?


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Oh... a wonderful book that would help any man learn about women, that really wants to learn about women is

What Women Want Men to Know by Barbara DeAngeles.

My stbx actually read part of it believe it or not. However I think all it did was give him directions on how to nail other women!


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Hi Kimmerz,

Thank you for taking the time to critique my DB'ing...I do appreciate it!

As far as the "prove desirability", that was the motivation for the online/(maybe PA?) affairs, from her mouth. For some reason she needs/needed it from men besides her husband...until this latest dive into the tunnel, I have never found her "un-hot" and never neglected to try to let her know I think she is the hottest woman in my eyes (she has this unique look and "had" such a cherishable personality that just melted me). The "alien", however, not so much...

I hate it sometimes that my illusions have been shattered, but I am thankful at the same time...weird, I know.

I will try to find that book...I hope I can use it for my marriage, but if not, for the next R, if any... smile

Again, thank you for looking over things, I am always wondering if my logical, fix-it mentality is overlooking some critical thing that would move things forward...and your perspective, from a female, really helps me....I just don't see the man she described, in the mirror anymore...

T^2


In the depths of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer. - Albert Camus

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Hey T!

You're welcome. I appreciate you explaining the "proven desirability" because this was an issue with me many years ago during the first 5 years of my marriage. I will openly admit that I got sucked into the online chat room - cyber ordeal. I never did have a PA with these people, just online cyber flings.
I was interested in what you had read because I had never heard of any such reason for affairs. I did discover many years ago through plain old soul searching and reading on emotional affairs that my reason for doing such was simply for attention from males.

My husband of course discovered these things and to say it hurt him is an understatement. When I tried to describe it to him then and even years later Im not sure if he really grasped that it truly was me and not him. I now know he never let go of that because he told me after he left and we started fighting about all this stuff swept under the carpet. However his actions for years afterwards indicated we were moved on from it, it was no longer a problem, and we were just a family growing together and raising our kids. I honestly didn't even think about it anymore. He was my husband, and I wanted him and only him. I realized what I did was for my own emotional issues and he was not a failure because I had them.

And thanks to you, I now know it was me needing Proven desirability. When I went through this. For me just knowing that I could have the attention of any man at any time, and them begging for more really boosted my ego. It made me feel desirable, but at the same time it wasn't real to me. It was more like a fantasy interaction that I could pull the cord on at any time. I never did want to meet these guys in person. However at the time I did question if my marriage was a mistake because I was wanting to do these things. I figured if I had married the right person that I wouldn't want to do that. WEll lord do I know that never was the case.

I had low self esteem in regards to guys in high school. I was very confused as to why everyone would tell me how gorgeous I was, girls always telling me they wished they looked like me, yet no guy that I would be interested in showed any interest in me. I felt there was something wrong with me. I wasn't thin enough, I wasn't pretty enough, my hair didn't look right, I was too loud, I was too quiet. Yet what's so crazy is that I was the farthest thing from a wall flower anyway! Guys just seem to love to keep me as their bestest buddies. Hells Bells that's what my stbx wanted to be when he left and freaking acted like it and still does from time to time. Maybe you can help me! Why do guys just want to be friends with a woman? Three of my closest relationships with 3 men in my life always ended up with them always keeping me in the wings as a great friend. Why do men do that?

I know you would never do that, but you're a man, tell me what you know...LOL!

Anyway T from a woman who did walk down the path your wife did briefly, Im here to tell you it wasn't you! My husband was very much like you in the sense that he never ever made me feel unwanted, unsexy, ugly, or anything. And very, very unfortuneatly it came at the expense of hurting him.

What I want to commend you on is for taking the time to set your hurt feelings aside and really look at why you're wife would've chosen to do that. You cared enough about her as a person and your marriage, and family to dig deeper and to try and understand WHY. My poor stbx didn't. All he saw and felt was a woman that betrayed him. He buried it down, and it just festered along with many other things. I know what I did was wrong, and I still regret and feel awful about it to this day. But I also own my mistake and I now know what was going on inside of me to do such things.

I now know that really started a horrible vicious circle with him and I. Because of that, He in a round about way finally admitted he's done nothing but spy on me for years. REading my emails, my letters, my computer activity, etc. While I can understand that, all that did was hurt him more in the long run. BEcause as time went by he and I started to have more marital problems and I would email my friends and family about it and vent. I needed support, guidance and to blow my stack. Yet he was reading it all along and NEVER said anything, but would act out because of what he was reading and therefore feeling.

You said you didn't see the man in the mirror that your W described anymore. I too have the logical, fix it mentality and I worry Im overlooking something too. I took a good look at myself after all the things my stbx told me he saw in me. I've scruitinized, looked, looked again, and still feel so stumped. The only thing I can really agree on with him is that I am not a good housekeeper anymore. Im not and I admit it. But his personal attacks against my character, dear God I just couldn't see it. I've been worried I've been in denial about some things, but I don't think I am.

I think what happened is my stbx was thrown into needing "proven desirability" as well after such horrible blows to his ego in regards to losing a job that defined him as a person. Also he started feeling very neglected as the duties of being a full time mom and in home day care provider left him on the back burner from me. The twisted part of this is..... and I now see it, is that I could tell he was feeling left out. I would try to reconnect with him, but guess what, HE DIDN'T HAVE TIME FOR ME BECAUSE HE WAS BUSY GAMING, TOO TIRED, TOO BUST, ETC. This was passive aggressive on his part and also him sabatoging me too. As I look back at things, that man has sabatoged me and the chance for our relationship to flourish at every chance. He even admitted to me he was too scared to get close to me because if he was rejected it would kill him. Though I truly understand that insecurity, it breaks my heart that he was too scared to try. WE surely had our issues, but damn the good things we had were good and such a good foundation to build a new on.

So what did he do? Left me and hooked up with the OW that's idolized him for years. She is safe, has NO EXPECTATIONS OF HIM, and he is in CONTROL. Im told by very good sources that everything is about stbx with this OW. Guess she does everything but chew his food for him.

Kimmerz


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Haven't posted in a while...

W seems to be getting more and more insight and clarity...opening up to me more about what is going on for/within her. This was a big part of our R and it is nice to see it again after so long...helps me feel a connection. She said though, that now that she is starting to open up top me again, that she wants to "control the distance"...good thing I almost memorized Sandi2's sitch and posts as I think that means she doesn't want me to think all is better and back 100%...that I need to take it slowly and let her lead herself back to "us", for me not to go 150% blazing forward...and, yes, that is a valid point and one of my 180's... If anyone has any input or other interpretation I would love to hear it... smile

She has increased her involvement in the house and such, also a good sign as it has always been important to her, but slides during her depressive episodes...and yes I notice and praise/validate, which feels good to me as well. Since one of her/our issues is validation, I make an effort to notice things to praise/validate, it's not hard to do once you know and put yourself in their shoes.

There have been displays of anger and spew, BUT...there is lucidity now and she will inform if it has to do with me/family or just her (she may have to be asked sometimes as she has problems articulating when so angry)...and she will remove herself until it is passed.

We have had a couple issues, one was having to do with a big financial thing I am working on and I asked if she had any idea if for sure was going to leave us, as if so I would need to talk with a lawyer before proceeding to commit to the financial plan...at the time an argument started, and I refused to argue, fairly calmly stated my views and went to my office, annoyed with myself that I started a "R" talk.... She called me right after I got there (this is a change...not her standard operating procedure) and explained why she was so defensive, etc.

Another is when the kids and I came home a bit early and she was all involved with the webcam....she made a point, after I walked away angry knowing what she had been doing, to pursue me to tell me she wasn't webcamming with anyone, just doing local video for herself...and why (the aging/desirability thing)...I told her that I chose to accept her explanation, that I was choosing to trust (she knows that I could find out if she was lying or not if I want to). I hope I handled that well...trying to BE the example and pay it forward. Again, opinions welcome.

I did have a slip when I heard the "lovely" sound of IM activity (also, I had confronted her earlier on not looking up from the computer when I was talking to her, that it was disrespectful and did she mean to convey that message? She then made eye contact...)...I could not tell where it was coming from in the room I was in, so I asked W who she was chatting with...she wasn't, it was one of the kids...so I had to explain myself...that that sound triggers thoughts in me...ugh... she said she felt bad that she was the cause of my trigger, I told her I was sorry my reaction made her uncomfortable and that when I figured out that it was one of the kids, the annoyed or mad look on my face was my anger with myself that I slipped on staying out of what she is doing and letting her figure it (her cyber/emotional/possible physical affairs) out for herself. The rest of the night was okay after a while.

I am in this rather calm place where my gut/intuition is still staying it is going to work out, and my observations support this...

I mean, no one would clean, organize their stuff and work on decorating the house if they were going to leave it, they wouldn't talk about a few "future" things if they were truly feeling "done" with the R, right?

One thing, though, is she has trouble looking at me often, avoids eye contact, but not all the time...what's up with that?

Proceeding cautiously, fragility is still there, but not walking on eggshells either...just being the best T2 I can be, confident, caring

Thoughts, 2X4's, etc., welcome...

Ok...enough book writing... smile

Hey there Kimmerz....to answer your question:

Quote:
Why do guys just want to be friends with a woman? Three of my closest relationships with 3 men in my life always ended up with them always keeping me in the wings as a great friend. Why do men do that?


Well, just my thoughts, but...You are an articulate, intelligent, insightful woman, seem to have things together and are responsible from what I have read...some men would be threatened by that, some wouldn't want to compete...IDK...their loss...

And, if you are like me (your profile birthday is just a few days away from mine)...you may have a tendency to let people into your intimate self very slowly...and IF they get in, then you are VERY loyal and it is a "forever thing"...in our society, time, patience and commitment are not popular concepts these days...imho.


T^2


In the depths of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer. - Albert Camus

Uncertainty is the very condition which impels people to unfold their powers.-Eric Fromm

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An additional thought on this...

Quote:
no one would clean, organize their stuff and work on decorating the house if they were going to leave it, they wouldn't talk about a few "future" things if they were truly feeling "done" with the R, right?


W is also organizing/decorating my stuff/space as well...and a figurine that my Mom gave her that represented me as a baby has re-appeared in her space after it being given back to me after BD...W is very artistic...symbolic and acts of service LL possibly? Easier for her than words from my experience...


In the depths of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer. - Albert Camus

Uncertainty is the very condition which impels people to unfold their powers.-Eric Fromm

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