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#2233498 - 03/26/12 06:52 PM Re: Death of a "nice guy" [Re: rickb89]
zig Offline
Member

Registered: 02/21/12
Posts: 1855
Loc: KS
Originally Posted By: rickb89

I don't know anyone on this board thas cheated on their spouses, so it's such an unimaginable shock when it happens to us.


i don't know if i count as one of the above, as i cheated on my ex-husband, from my first marriage and had a short but intense EA during the 7th year. my ex had cheated on me for years, and it's only now during this sitch that i realize how messed up i must have been when i was younger, during that first marriage. i saw everything so differently - or took things so differently. i only see now, that that affair i had really ended that marriage, because i remember how i turned away from my ex after that - it had been a really strong EA, and i could never get myself to turn back towards him. of course he wasn't trying to attract me back either

in this sitch - i feel so differently and it is the unimaginable shock that you describe above that i feel now.

for what it's worth, i have found myself thinking a lot about how i felt during that EA - and then thought of H during these last few months with his A , and i know so well that compelling force that allows him to do what he's doing. i remember that when i had met that OM all those years ago, i was completely blinded to the ramifications of falling into it - nothing else made any sense - nothing seemed as important.

i feel a bit like the pariah on this site in some ways - because of having been on the other side of the fence so to speak. but the only thing i learned from that was in the end, no one was better off, and it took me until now to see what i had done. the consequences spilled over and their effects can still be felt today.

sadly my h and i have talked about this and in some ways he knows this is what happens, but my example is still not enough to make him rethink what he is doing

didn't mean to hijack your thread ce, and i don't know if it helps in anyway to even start to see the other side - but knowing somewhat how my h might be feeling has helped me in my worst moments

is the absence of the t-shirt and pic more important to you or is saving the relationship? if you maybe try to look at it from that perspective and also think of it in the way "there'll always be a t-shirt" when is the point that you let it go?

i don't know if i put that clearly enough - i read a garfield clip this morning where he's jumping around for joy because winter has ended and he's describing all the things he doesn't have to deal with anymore like snow and cold etc, and how it's going to be so great, and then a big fat fly starts buzzing around his head - the message of course being that, well, if it's not this thing , then there will be some other thing. so if one can't handle this thing, how does one think one can handle the other thing

i've been trying to do that in my sitch - where when i start getting worked up about something, i am stopping and finding myself thinking - my gosh zig here you are wanting so bad for the 2 of you to get back together, and if you can't handle this little thing, how on earth are you going to handle the whole pic

another thought on the was's - do you think that sub-consciously they test us with things like OM's t-shirts just to see what we will do. i know that h is constantly doing that to see if i will "revert" to my old patterns and behaviors. inspect really well for yourself whether what you want to do in this sitch is truly a 180 or whether you are sub-cnsiously reverting to your old reactions - because this is a BIG one - it hurts alot, it's having it thrown in your face, it's really unfair on top of everything else you have had to deal with and when it crosses the line that much, i think that's when old ingrained habits kick in without us realizing it

sorry this is so long - but even while writing this to you - it somehow gave me much clearer perspective on my own actions

take care
zig
_________________________
me 46 H 38
M10yrs T 11
S10
BD ow 8/11
h filed 9/25/12


"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"


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#2233556 - 03/26/12 10:42 PM Re: Death of a "nice guy" [Re: zig]
rickb89 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 1119
Zig - since you have been on both sides of the fence, how to feel about M's reconciling after an affair?. Do you think z M can survive it, or even be a better M after?

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#2233587 - 03/27/12 01:11 AM Re: Death of a "nice guy" [Re: rickb89]
zig Offline
Member

Registered: 02/21/12
Posts: 1855
Loc: KS
i think anything is forgivable if a person can find it in their hearts to forgive

what i find myself thinking so much about now, after all these years when i've finally acknowledged my own responsibility for those actions, is how to forgive myself. i'm not agonizing over it in a huge way because it was from a past relationship that is so over, but in order to live authentically now in the present, i can't help thinking that can i forgive myself for being so blind to what i was doing then? if i am really honest i cannot even now really comprehend how ex may have been hurt (i didn't tell him about it at all, but i wonder now if he may have guessed)

for all these years i justified it as not being a wrong thing to do because he was doing it continuously, but i am acknowledging to myself that that was not a reason for me to do it. i simply did NOT understand what i needed to do to show my unhappiness for all those years.

so while i am now in this sitch, i find myself often applying what i felt then to possibly what H feels now. he simply did not see that our problems and what was missing for him could be fixed in other ways

my feeling these last 7 months is that yes, yes, now i see it, now i know what it takes to make a relationship successful - now i see where i went wrong and how easy in some ways it would be to make things great. but ironically for all of us, the WAS or mlc'er just don't see the same thing.

(just like i was sure that my ex would never change and would continue the same way, i realize now that that is how h sees me and what made him take the step with the A - he was sure life with me would just always be like that and he couldn't bear the idea any longer - he couldn't believe i could be different, he didn't believe that he could get through to me and that justified it for him)

i think it CAN survive and be great - but there is of course the little "slight" detail of the other party co-operating if ya know what i mean

i find myself thinking alot these days -what comes around , goes around - that saying never felt so profound before. and now the only thing i know is that from now on i am going to act and function ONLY from my higher self - and never give the universe a chance to dish me another wake up call - at least not like this one.

that's not implying that this sitch is given to me to punish me for past deeds, it means more that i never want to live again where i am not living authentically.

in a way , rick, its hard to answer your question because even though i was on both sides of the fence - it was not the same fence- and i guess that's where the vets' advice to us about each sitch being different is so true - and why it makes DB'ing so difficult - some of the stories i've read here - people have reconciled after both much less AND much more than what h and i have to work through - and so when they say there's no way to tell, they really mean it don't they?
_________________________
me 46 H 38
M10yrs T 11
S10
BD ow 8/11
h filed 9/25/12


"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"


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#2233625 - 03/27/12 08:43 AM Re: Death of a "nice guy" [Re: zig]
labug Offline
Member

Registered: 11/24/11
Posts: 8553
Loc: Sonoran Desert
zig, I love your post. I have so many of the same feelings and thoughts. It was so difficult when I reached the realization that in my case H wasn't leaving as a personal attack at me, he was doing it to save himself. To get away from the hurting.

So much of what he has done is exactly what is advised by MWD no R talk, NC, LRT, etc. And I can assure you, he didn't read the book.

Higher self, yes that's what I'm striving for and why I've continued on this path for this length of time. I'm not yet where I need to be.

I see it as my Hero's Journey.
_________________________
Me 57/H 58
M35 S24 S21
Bomb 3/11 Sep 3/11
Piecing 9/13 12/13 Reconciling

"We can make ourselves miserable, or we can make ourselves happy. The amount of work is the same"~Carlos Castenada

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#2233634 - 03/27/12 09:07 AM Re: Death of a "nice guy" [Re: zig]
ces67 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/23/11
Posts: 1021
Zig - thanks so much for the perspective. You are absolutely NOT a pariah...

Can't remember where/if I mentioned this but my 2 closest confidants that I call for support are both men who cheated on their wives and whose marriages are restored. Both have beautiful families and their marriages are now strong. They both have their wives as partners and best friends.

However, there are consequences and it deals with what you said above. One friend has told me that he daily lives with the fact that he cheated; that he betrayed the woman he promised to love. Even though she has forgiven him and loves him, there are days when he cannot love himself. Those days get fewer and fewer but the challenge to forgive himself remains.

I struggle with my mistakes as well. And I do often try and understand what my W is feeling. So here's my confession on this subject (since you're so willing to share).

Early in my M I often felt rejected by my wife. I literally use to keep track in my head how often I would be rejected or denied when trying to initiate sex. Needless to say, my success rate was lousy. I mentioned before that I am reading through the "No More Mr. Nice Guy" book. Well, this fed right into whatever abandonment issues I had from my past.

After a few years of this behavior, rather than having the courage (or just too stupid to look at options) I turned to online porn as an outlet for my sexual needs.

Now here is the part where I want to justify and say, "I only looked at pictures. I never contacted, spoke, chatted or anything like that". But the reality is, I looked outside my M and accepted far less than my M and it was a betrayal.

I felt miserable about myself. Here I am a Christian guy whose not suppose to have these issues. That's what I'd been taught my whole life. So I felt I had no one to go to who would help me with this. The guilt was a heavy burden and it certainly impacted my abilty to be close with my W. But I learned to cover my failings and function in life.

After a few years of "on and off" struggles, I was able to put it behind me and no one ever knew of the struggle I dealt with. But the guilt remained.

6 or 7 years after I'd stopped, my W and I went to a marriage weekend. Somewhere in the conversation my W asked if I had ever looked at porn. I answered honestly and "yes" was about all I ever got to say about it. My W was crushed. She withdrew from me in an extreme way. It took 18 months for us to heal. I worked like crazy to show her I was sorry and loved her. I accepted all bitterness, and anger she handed me. Looking back, my biggest mistake in how I handled it that I saw it as so long ago that I just wanted it to be over and didn't effectively allow her time to heal. I wanted forgiven and I wanted it now.

I remember the shift back to healing. We continued to work well with the kids. Slowly our conversations began again. Somehow I never believed our M would end at that time.

For a good part of the 18 months, I had to work to shut down an operation at work, displacing over 100 employees and myself. I accepted that I had no support at home to deal with this. When W wanted to move away closer to her family, I made arrangements to temporarily move to her sister's over 1000 miles away to look for a job.

In Feb 2009, my W flew down to go to a wedding for her cousin and spend the weekend with me. When she got off the plane, she came to me and wrapped her arms around me and kissed me. She told me that she really did miss me and was afraid she wouldn't.

From that point it seemed life was going better, our relationship, fun times, sexual intimacy... It felt like we were finally back on track. After 15 months out of work, I ended up with 3 job offers on the table and W said she supported me in the job I selected: best pay, relo package, great company. She had told me many times in the past that she wanted me to work for something I could believe in.

I ended up moving 7 months before family at my W's request so the kids could finish school. This also kept us from having 2 house payments since I was able to live with a friend. But during this time, W built relationships with new friends and grew distant from me again. Finally about a week before their move she tells me that we are in 2 different places now and she just wasn't sure what she wanted.

Thus the current journey began. In what discussions W and I have had, the porn has not come up. Its been more about my ability to support her (or lack of). Its these discussions where I see my behaviors of the past in the "Nice Guy" book.

Its all a little different for each of us but I too have to look back and be able to forgive myself for my mistakes. I'm grateful that they are behind me. I'm grateful for a God who forgives and I'm grateful that my eyes have been (and continue to be) opened to ways I can let go of bad things out of my life.

I still hate that I hurt my W in any way. I still have times were I try and justify myself by saying all the issues my W has and her own behaviors. But then I have to remember the peace I have gained in forgiveness and figure out how I can offer this same gift to my W, even if she doesn't accept it.

Ok, didn't realize I'd get into a morning confessional today but there it is. I'll probably worry about what judgements may be placed upon me by those that read this but I at least I can recognize it now and mentally let myself know that my mistakes are in the past and looking forward is the best choice I can make now.

So Zig, after that long confessional, I relate what my W feels towards OM in a similar way to how I used porn to escape. It felt like my only option at the time and I would imagine my W feels something similar towards the OM for herself. It may be mind-reading but it does help me temper my bitterness and look at her with more compassion. Daily choice though.
_________________________
Me:45, W:44
S:15, D:12
M:22, T:25
Bomb: July 2010
2 attempts at MC-stopped 09/13
Continue to live in same home-separate rooms

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#2233657 - 03/27/12 10:36 AM Re: Death of a "nice guy" [Re: ces67]
sayitaintso Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/11
Posts: 951
No judgments at all from me CES, thanks for sharing. I am striving to get to a place where I can forgive myself for the things I did that caused me to get to where I'm at in my sitch and it is tough.

So many regrets, i was asleep at the wheel. I am awake now and it may be too late to R w/ my WAW but not too late to learn from my mistakes.

Best to u CES!!
_________________________
Me- 34 W-33
S15 S10 S6
Married- 11 Together- 18
Bomb- 6-2011
WAW moves out- 8-2011

"Nothing in the Universe can stop you from letting go and starting over at anytime"- Guy Finley

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#2233686 - 03/27/12 11:44 AM Re: Death of a "nice guy" [Re: sayitaintso]
ces67 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/23/11
Posts: 1021
Originally Posted By: sayitaintso
So many regrets, i was asleep at the wheel. I am awake now and it may be too late to R w/ my WAW but not too late to learn from my mistakes.


Thanks SAIS, I get this feeling as well and just focus on the thankfulness of "waking up"
_________________________
Me:45, W:44
S:15, D:12
M:22, T:25
Bomb: July 2010
2 attempts at MC-stopped 09/13
Continue to live in same home-separate rooms

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#2233687 - 03/27/12 11:46 AM Re: Death of a "nice guy" [Re: sayitaintso]
purgatory Offline
Member

Registered: 12/12/11
Posts: 825
Loc: Virginia
Lessons that needed to be learned... But we had to loose everything to do so. I actually thanked my H the other night for leaving me because it forced me to look inwards and to the hard work to fix myself so I could be a better mom and feel better about myself again.

CES, early in my M, I struggled with hormone and body image issues... My H turned to porn too. Although it hurt me, I accepted that it was something that he was lacking from me.... Here's what I can't forgive myself for: why didn't that trigger me to DO something to regain his attention?? Instead, I just said "fine, at least I don't have to do any extra work." (and that's the key!! It was easier to just let him do it and me turn a blind eye, than to TRY and WORK to provide what he was missing- I was lazy!) that is only one part of the demise of my M, but an important part. I had to have everything taken away from me in order for me to not me lazy with my relationship... How do I forgive myself for that?!

It's good that you can kinda relate to your W's feelings for the OM- it's not about you, it's about her finding someone/something to fill a void that she has, at least that's how I'm trying to view my H's need for the OW.

I'm glad we're not alone on this roller coaster
_________________________
M-31, H-31
T-9, M-7
S-6, s-20mth
sep 8/1/11
ILYNILWY 11/29/11
Creating separation papers.
Discover H has feelings for BFF, she does too 1/11/12
H moves out 1.20.12

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#2233689 - 03/27/12 11:51 AM Re: Death of a "nice guy" [Re: sayitaintso]
purgatory Offline
Member

Registered: 12/12/11
Posts: 825
Loc: Virginia
Lessons that needed to be learned... But we had to loose everything to do so. I actually thanked my H the other night for leaving me because it forced me to look inwards and to the hard work to fix myself so I could be a better mom and feel better about myself again.

CES, early in my M, I struggled with hormone and body image issues... My H turned to porn too. Although it hurt me, I accepted that it was something that he was lacking from me.... Here's what I can't forgive myself for: why didn't that trigger me to DO something to regain his attention?? Instead, I just said "fine, at least I don't have to do any extra work." (and that's the key!! It was easier to just let him do it and me turn a blind eye, than to TRY and WORK to provide what he was missing- I was lazy!) that is only one part of the demise of my M, but an important part. I had to have everything taken away from me in order for me to not me lazy with my relationship... How do I forgive myself for that?!

It's good that you can kinda relate to your W's feelings for the OM- it's not about you, it's about her finding someone/something to fill a void that she has, at least that's how I'm trying to view my H's need for the OW.

I'm glad we're not alone on this roller coaster
_________________________
M-31, H-31
T-9, M-7
S-6, s-20mth
sep 8/1/11
ILYNILWY 11/29/11
Creating separation papers.
Discover H has feelings for BFF, she does too 1/11/12
H moves out 1.20.12

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#2233711 - 03/27/12 02:24 PM Re: Death of a "nice guy" [Re: purgatory]
rickb89 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 1119
Zig, CES, SAIS, Purg - thanks for your incredible honesty and openness. These few posts alone can help the hundreds of us that are on this board.

I initially asked Zig about forgiveness for an A, and asked her because she had seen two side of it, and her answer was so insightful. And CES, your post is helping me to understand my W.

Although not the same sitch, her PTSD issues were born of a deep self hatred and manifested in her need for male attention, for endless confirmation that she was indeed, in the hottest and most desirable category. It was truly a sickness born out of pain. And CES, you were feeling hurt and trapped in the nice guy syndrome. These kinds of insights make it easier to forgive someone for their pain and maybe even their actions.

SAIS and Purg - you mention being asleep at the wheel, or not taking control of a sitch that you maybe could have rectified had you had the knowledge.

All these stories, though different are the same, we are a group of people that needed to wake up and grow and dammit, here's the opportunity.

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