Finding my way through the fog

[2thepoint]

W made a comment to me about menopause yesterday during our 2 hour drive to S13's soccer match. She basically said that menopause causes huge mood swings and that they are/were awful! She said she finally found the proper medication to handle the mood swings.

Now as I reflect on what she said, I can't help but think back over the past couple of years and her erratic behavior which I thought was menopause related. She'd constantly be complaining about how hot it was (hot flashes) even though I was freezing my ass off! Then she'd have these "huge mood swings" and I'd suggest she see a Dr. because I thought it was menopause related or that her meds for depression and anxiety needed to be adjusted and she'd just get pissed at me and resentful of me and that I think is how we found ourselves in our present sitch.

Since she was basically ignoring me and my observations of her behavior I too began to grow resentful and that probably showed in my behavior towards her. Then you add in the mix the OM who was never present during her mood swings and he comes across as this wonderful, caring individual and I'm just this resentful and resented husband who doesn't care.

And then it all begins to make sense! I am no longer qualified to be her husband. She is going through a MLC and I am to be cast aside for something better.

I find it telling that she is now able to recognize her mood swings for what they were. I am really bothered though that she hasn't been able to put the pieces together to see how maybe this is the catalyst that brought about our marital problems.

Sure there are other contributing factors to our problems; my selfish and controlling behavior as an example. Her lack of interest in speaking my love language as another. But I do believe that the menopause thing is the big elephant in the room.

Any thoughts?

[adinva]

Hi T2P, WELCOME HOME!!!!

You are tired and stressed from your trip, no matter how fun it was, so being very forgiving of yourself and others for a while until you're all the way back to 100%.

What I noticed about your return home was that you seem to have forgotten your 180s while away. What are they again?

You walked in the house with your fam after a week away and started doing the dishes?! and when your W said that made her feel bad you told her why she's wrong?! and then went back to finish the dishes!? Bam with a 2x4. If you get a do-over in the near future, I suggest paying more attention to the people - such as, ignore the state of the house and show your kids (and W if she comes looking) your favorite pictures of your trip and ask if they have any new stuff to show you.

Your expectations hurt you more than anything external here. I don't know about the cell phone waiting area where you are, but here it is required - families can't go in and get their returning loved ones. I think it was good that she came to pick you up and brought the kids. HOWEVER, I've been overseas a few times and have also found that the stress, excitement, jet lag or whatever leads to a little bit of depression temporarily about coming home - raised expectations or whatever. You'll get through it and get back to your 180s and GALs back home. But that's why I suggest being extra forgiving of yourself and your family for a little while.

2TP I know you for a very deep, insightful, compassionate and loving man. This is an opportunity to live out who you really want to be - regardless of how everyone around you may be behaving. I'm definitely on your side and I want to see you succeed.

[workinghardguy]

You know how heart warming it is to see others greet their loved ones after coming back from a trip? I was hoping for that and it didn't happen.

Yeah I know... I travel fairly often for work. I see the reunions all the time as I deplane at various airports. Sort of twinges my heart each time still.

Should you find yourself in this situation again one option would be to simply tell your W you'd like the kids to be at the terminal so you can see them right away. It's fun for kids to watch the airplanes takeoff and land, to see the comings and goings of an airport, and so on. And it's got to be more fun than sitting in the cell phone lot with kids cooped up in a car. You could even be clear you just want to see the kids and tell her I don't expect anything from you.

Considering where your W is right now if you want something to happen you have to row your own boat.

I suppose you are right. We are going on 7 months since the bomb and it's been 4 months since I moved out. I must admit that I am growing weary.

Amen brother... A.. freaking... men...

[bustorama]

Hey 2tp,

Welcome back from trip. Some of these things have been pointed out, but I'd like to emphasize them =)

Flight got in late yesterday and W and S10 picked me up from the airport. Unfortunately I didn't get the grand "welcome home" I was hoping for. Instead, W sent me a text to say they were waiting on cell phone waiting area and to let her know when I was ready. So that was a bit of a let down.

We let ourselves down when we allow ourselves to do this to ourselves with our expectations. Our emotional reactions are direct results of how we interpret/frame things. You might have experienced the same objective event (W and S10 picking you up at airport) as a positive event if your expectations had been different OR if you had reframed things using cognitive techniques when you found yourself feeling letdown. Change your thinking and your feelings change.

"Well, there was no grand reception with kids in airport, but it sure is great to see S10, haven't seen him in a week, and it is fantastic to be with him again. I sure missed him."

"Well, at least W had the courtesy to bring S10 to pick me up at the airport, in some other people's sitches, W lives in another state with OM, and could give a flying EFF about bringing family members together, let alone picking up LBS at airport, etc."

The drive home was kind of a downer for me because for about 45 minutes W was on the phone with who I'm pretty certain was OM. I was really annoyed that she would be so insensitive to have a conversation with OM while I was in the same car with her.

Couple of thoughts here:

1) how certain are you that she was on phone with OM (rather than you mindreading/projecting)?

2) let's say you are CERTAIN that she WAS on phone with OM, are you cool with your W talking to OM while you are there? No, you were annoyed. Because it is very disrespectful. EVEN IF you guys were divorced, it is disrespectful for her to do that, and it's especially disrespectful for her to do that while you are not D in front of your S. You let others (and yourself) cross your boundaries when you allow yourself to be disrespected. And you feel shitty as a result. What are some possible ways to handle this differently?

(quietly so S cannot hear) "You know, W. I'm not totally sure what is going on, so please fill me in. I am feeling disrespected because I think that you may be talking to OM on the phone in front of me and our S. Am I wrong about this, because it's hard for me to imagine you would really be doing that? (and if not) I'm not cool with you talking to OM in front of me or my S. If you don't hang up, I am going to pull over and let you out so you can keep talking to him." Her choice to keep talking or not, same as it is your choice to subject yourself to her talking to him.

It may seem conflict promoting to do this, but your W has to respect you to feel love for you. And she will only respect you if you demand that she treat you with the respect that you deserve. If she is insensitive enough to talk to OM in front of you and you do not call her on it, then she does not and will not respect you.

And, perhaps most importantly, you are not respecting yourself when you fail to speak up when others cross your boundaries. Don't do this to yourself. Be true to yourself.

What do you think your W feels about you if you are cool with her talking to OM while you are there?

Anyway, I tried to get over it by trying to keep a PMA and get us home. After we arrived at home, I see the house is a wreck! Dishes piled up and trash overflowing, etc. It makes me crazy! So I thought I'd help out a little and started to put the dirty dishes in the dishwasher.

Just then W walks up and says I wish you wouldn't do that and I say, why? She said "it makes me feel bad." And I tell her I'm not doing it to make her feel bad, just trying to help out some. With that she walks out of the room.

You are not helping out when she asks you to stop because it makes her feel bad. You also are not helping out when you explain to her why she is wrong to feel bad. Don't wash her dishes or tidy up. It is HER house now (NOT your home like you slipped back into again), and she is a grown woman. And for the love of God, stop taking her trash out!!!!

When she says to you please don't do that it makes me feel bad, the appropriate response is to stop and say you know, W. You are right, I don't know what I was thinking washing your dishes or taking out your trash. It is 100% pursuit, you might as well be bringing her roses.

I know it hurts 2tp, but you have got to reframe your reality and live that (now at least) HER house is NOT YOUR HOME.

I agree with the other posters about talking openly with your new roommate to have your NEW HOME situation be comfortable for the both of you.

[rickb89]

2Pac....tough to come home to the reminders that the battle does indeed go on.

You do have a choice here...to choose happiness and a future that meets your desires....to define your boundaries about the O-dbag so that her BS is not part of your daily life...to let her learn from the consequences of her choices. The part about her crappy housecleaning. Let her deal with it. You should see the room my W is staying in at home. It's like horder meets Howard Hughes. I absolutely refuse to clean it up although it's pretty disturbing.

After your trip you must see that there are infinite possibilities for a new life out there. CES said today "let the lord fight for you...just stand still". I think if you reach the right state of mind to handle this, then one of those infinite life possibilites out there will choose you...just be still.

I'll meet you on the other side...and we can talk about how great our lives are!

[2thepoint]

Adinva - thanks for your post. Sometimes I guess a reminder in the form of a slap upside the head is necessary to get me to focus in the right area.

Regarding the messy kitchen, I just couldn't help myself. It is clear that W struggles in this area. I really wasn't trying to get attention by cleaning up a bit. It just looked like it needed to be done and so I did it. I wasn't expecting W to complain and obviously my response wasn't ideal. I need to work on that for the future, no doubt!

2TP I know you for a very deep, insightful, compassionate and loving man. This is an opportunity to live out who you really want to be - regardless of how everyone around you may be behaving. I'm definitely on your side and I want to see you succeed.

Thanks for that validation. It means a lot to know that my writings come across as who I really am. I just wish my W could see it as well.

Thanks again for your post.

[2thepoint]

Our emotional reactions are direct results of how we interpret/frame things. You might have experienced the same objective event (W and S10 picking you up at airport) as a positive event if your expectations had been different OR if you had reframed things using cognitive techniques when you found yourself feeling letdown. Change your thinking and your feelings change.

"Well, there was no grand reception with kids in airport, but it sure is great to see S10, haven't seen him in a week, and it is fantastic to be with him again. I sure missed him."

"Well, at least W had the courtesy to bring S10 to pick me up at the airport, in some other people's sitches, W lives in another state with OM, and could give a flying EFF about bringing family members together, let alone picking up LBS at airport, etc."

These are good suggestions on how to look at things from a different perspective. This would definitely have helped me to avoid being disappointed. I'll try this next time. Live and learn!

1) how certain are you that she was on phone with OM (rather than you mindreading/projecting)?

I'm not entirely certain but I'd be willing to put money on it that she was talking to OM. Of course under the very remote possibility that she was talking to someone else, then yes, I am guilty of mind reading and projecting.

2) let's say you are CERTAIN that she WAS on phone with OM, are you cool with your W talking to OM while you are there? No, you were annoyed. Because it is very disrespectful. EVEN IF you guys were divorced, it is disrespectful for her to do that, and it's especially disrespectful for her to do that while you are not D in front of your S. You let others (and yourself) cross your boundaries when you allow yourself to be disrespected. And you feel shitty as a result. What are some possible ways to handle this differently?

(quietly so S cannot hear) "You know, W. I'm not totally sure what is going on, so please fill me in. I am feeling disrespected because I think that you may be talking to OM on the phone in front of me and our S. Am I wrong about this, because it's hard for me to imagine you would really be doing that? (and if not) I'm not cool with you talking to OM in front of me or my S. If you don't hang up, I am going to pull over and let you out so you can keep talking to him." Her choice to keep talking or not, same as it is your choice to subject yourself to her talking to him.

It may seem conflict promoting to do this, but your W has to respect you to feel love for you. And she will only respect you if you demand that she treat you with the respect that you deserve. If she is insensitive enough to talk to OM in front of you and you do not call her on it, then she does not and will not respect you.

You are right, it would seem to produce conflict which if I'm honest about it, I don't want to create conflict. I guess I fear running her further away by doing that. I feel like the fact that we can even go places together (albeit always with the kids) that that is some type of accomplishment and I don't want to mess that up.

Of course your point is valid regarding respect so I need to figure out a way get that addressed. But in a way that is helpful and not hurtful to my present sitch.

What do you think your W feels about you if you are cool with her talking to OM while you are there?

I haven't the foggiest idea what she thinks or feels. I guess the only way to know for sure is to deal with it directly with her.

You are not helping out when she asks you to stop because it makes her feel bad. You also are not helping out when you explain to her why she is wrong to feel bad. Don't wash her dishes or tidy up. It is HER house now (NOT your home like you slipped back into again), and she is a grown woman. And for the love of God, stop taking her trash out!!!!

You and BK have been harping on the trash issue for qI'm going to title my next thread...taking out the trash!

When she says to you please don't do that it makes me feel bad, the appropriate response is to stop and say you know, W. You are right, I don't know what I was thinking washing your dishes or taking out your trash. It is 100% pursuit, you might as well be bringing her roses.

I know it hurts 2tp, but you have got to reframe your reality and live that (now at least) HER house is NOT YOUR HOME.

I agree with the other posters about talking openly with your new roommate to have your NEW HOME situation be comfortable for the both of you.
[/quote]

[2thepoint]

Damn! I hit enter by mistake before I could finish my post. Wish the edit button worked!

Our emotional reactions are direct results of how we interpret/frame things. You might have experienced the same objective event (W and S10 picking you up at airport) as a positive event if your expectations had been different OR if you had reframed things using cognitive techniques when you found yourself feeling letdown. Change your thinking and your feelings change.

"Well, there was no grand reception with kids in airport, but it sure is great to see S10, haven't seen him in a week, and it is fantastic to be with him again. I sure missed him."

"Well, at least W had the courtesy to bring S10 to pick me up at the airport, in some other people's sitches, W lives in another state with OM, and could give a flying EFF about bringing family members together, let alone picking up LBS at airport, etc."

These are good suggestions on how to look at things from a different perspective. This would definitely have helped me to avoid being disappointed. I'll try this next time. Live and learn!

1) how certain are you that she was on phone with OM (rather than you mindreading/projecting)?

I'm not entirely certain but I'd be willing to put money on it that she was talking to OM. Of course under the very remote possibility that she was talking to someone else, then yes, I am guilty of mind reading and projecting.

2) let's say you are CERTAIN that she WAS on phone with OM, are you cool with your W talking to OM while you are there? No, you were annoyed. Because it is very disrespectful. EVEN IF you guys were divorced, it is disrespectful for her to do that, and it's especially disrespectful for her to do that while you are not D in front of your S. You let others (and yourself) cross your boundaries when you allow yourself to be disrespected. And you feel shitty as a result. What are some possible ways to handle this differently?

(quietly so S cannot hear) "You know, W. I'm not totally sure what is going on, so please fill me in. I am feeling disrespected because I think that you may be talking to OM on the phone in front of me and our S. Am I wrong about this, because it's hard for me to imagine you would really be doing that? (and if not) I'm not cool with you talking to OM in front of me or my S. If you don't hang up, I am going to pull over and let you out so you can keep talking to him." Her choice to keep talking or not, same as it is your choice to subject yourself to her talking to him.

It may seem conflict promoting to do this, but your W has to respect you to feel love for you. And she will only respect you if you demand that she treat you with the respect that you deserve. If she is insensitive enough to talk to OM in front of you and you do not call her on it, then she does not and will not respect you.

You are right, it would seem to produce conflict which if I'm honest about it, I don't want to create conflict. I guess I fear running her further away by doing that. I feel like the fact that we can even go places together (albeit always with the kids) that that is some type of accomplishment and I don't want to mess that up.

Of course your point is valid regarding respect so I need to figure out a way get that addressed. But in a way that is helpful and not hurtful to my present sitch.

What do you think your W feels about you if you are cool with her talking to OM while you are there?

I haven't the foggiest idea what she thinks or feels. I guess the only way to know for sure is to deal with it directly with her.

You are not helping out when she asks you to stop because it makes her feel bad. You also are not helping out when you explain to her why she is wrong to feel bad. Don't wash her dishes or tidy up. It is HER house now (NOT your home like you slipped back into again), and she is a grown woman. And for the love of God, stop taking her trash out!!!!

You and BK have been harping on the trash issue for quite awhile. I think I'm going to title my next thread...taking out the trash!

When she says to you please don't do that it makes me feel bad, the appropriate response is to stop and say you know, W. You are right, I don't know what I was thinking washing your dishes or taking out your trash. It is 100% pursuit, you might as well be bringing her roses.

You are absolutely correct here. And that is a very good example of what to say/do. And I bet it would have been a complete shock to her had I said just that. Next time...

I know it hurts 2tp, but you have got to reframe your reality and live that (now at least) HER house is NOT YOUR HOME.

Ugh! I know!

[2thepoint]

I didn't get any response on the board from an earlier post I made regarding menopause that has since become buried so I am re-posting here in the hopes that others will chime in.

W made a comment to me about menopause yesterday during our 2 hour drive to S13's soccer match. She basically said that menopause causes huge mood swings and that they are/were awful! She said she finally found the proper medication to handle the mood swings.

Now as I reflect on what she said, I can't help but think back over the past couple of years and her erratic behavior which I thought was menopause related. She'd constantly be complaining about how hot it was (hot flashes) even though I was freezing my ass off! Then she'd have these "huge mood swings" and I'd suggest she see a Dr. because I thought it was menopause related or that her meds for depression and anxiety needed to be adjusted and she'd just get pissed at me and resentful of me and that I think is how we found ourselves in our present sitch.

Since she was basically ignoring me and my observations of her behavior I too began to grow resentful and that probably showed in my behavior towards her. Then you add in the mix the OM who was never present during her mood swings and he comes across as this wonderful, caring individual and I'm just this resentful and resented husband who doesn't care.

And then it all begins to make sense! I am no longer qualified to be her husband. She is going through a MLC and I am to be cast aside for something better.

I find it telling that she is now able to recognize her mood swings for what they were. I am really bothered though that she hasn't been able to put the pieces together to see how maybe this is the catalyst that brought about our marital problems.

Sure there are other contributing factors to our problems; my selfish and controlling behavior as an example. Her lack of interest in speaking my love language as another. But I do believe that the menopause thing is the big elephant in the room.

Any thoughts?

[workinghardguy]

It is clear that W struggles in this area.

According to your standards... judgmental much? And there's a fighting chance that's why she feels bad. You are helping because it doesn't meet your standards.

She lives there now... it's her standards. I know it's hard. It seems like each time I am at my W's place the kids are vegged out in front of the TV. Or if I ask them how their day/weekend was it's a lot about watching TV. I won't deny that it bugs me. But I also can't do anything about it... it's her house, her standards.

But it works both ways. Last week was crazy for me. On Friday I found myself very stressed because my living room and kitchen were a complete mess. I was packing for myself and my SS and had SAR gear, uniform parts, and all sorts of stuff strewn about. I was in a huge rush and did not have time to clean up. But I was stressed because my W was going to come over on Saturday to let the dog out. I worried how she would judge me and the house.

And then I stopped myself and realized it didn't matter. It's my house now and I can keep it how I want. I don't usually keep it like that, but in this case it had to be and if she looks down on me for it... so be it.

Her house, her standards. Your house, your standards.