Never thought I'd be here.........part 13

[sandi2]

Over-post? Who ever heard of such?

Sandi -

"Let her see your friendship" - how? What do I do or not do? I don't think I can invite her to do things. I feel like there is really nothing I can do right now but sit here.

Well in other words, if she ever says anymore about you may/may not want to continue working on the R, instead of automatically thinking of a marriage relationship, try to think of just being friends without any benefits of any type (including visiting together). The trick here is to talk as if the only R you will engage is friendship. When she sees you no longer look, talk, and act marriage R being restored, then she will cease to feel pressured or smothered. She will feel like you are setting her free.

I didn't mean for you invite her to things. I'm not talking about that type of friendship. Maybe I should say to be friend-ly to her. Think of how you would be friendly to a co-worker, neighbor, or second cousin. You just act nice & upbeat whenever they say something to you or you happen to run into them, but you don't have them over for supper. KWIM?

It will be difficult in the beginning b/c you've not thought of her in any way but wife. That's one reason you need to pull back all the way, except communicating about son......and then make sure whenever you initiate contact that it's extremely important and can't wait. I see LBH's do it all the time.....use their kids as an excuse to contact the WAW, but they aren't even aware of it and will argue with you that's not what they're doing.

Your W does a ton of texting to you! If she's still doing it since she's told you she plans to pursue D, then I suggest you not respond to the comments regarding the M, your feelings, or what she hopes to get in the future. It has been hashed and rehashed enough, you don't need to hear her desires about her future if you're not included. But, you don't have to be ugly about it, either.

I've read the advice from the others, so I might as tell you what I think you should do in the time you have left. Break the communication over the MR, D proceedings, what she thought you felt, etc. You don't have to make any "announcements" of your intentions, just stop discussing those things! If you wish to tell her that it's probably best if you don't get into a relationship discussion, then okay.

Only respond like I mentioned re your son. Do not make arrangements to see her and for gosh sakes don't ask her if you can be included in any of her plans (regarding son or not). You've got to cut those strings! She feels you've smothered her, so think of that whenever you're tempted.

Doing this right now and quickly just might have some degree of impact on her, just don't bank too much on it. But continuing to do the same as you've been doing? No way! MWD tells us if that isn't working, do what......change it. Again, I'm not saying to be nasty, cold or bad mannered. But live your life the way you would if you were already D. She needs to see how that would be for you....and for her.

Some tend to think you should continue to show her your changes have stuck. Yes, being a responsible & caring father, and whatever other things she might be able to tell.....but not any thing like you've done since she went to that first C session. It's no longer a test. I think it's time you do a little testing of your own, thus the advice I've just given. It's about the same advice I gave you when you first arrived on the DB board.

[bustorama]

I'm sorry about your W's e-mail msg, Crimson. I have a few thoughts (some unrelated). I seem to dissent from some of the others that have chimed in so far.

1) Your W is operating on feelings. Because she does not have romantic feelings for you, she concludes that she should D you. When you pursued her recently (giving her flowers, words of affirmation, etc. etc.), and she did not "feel it" in return, she concluded this was a further sign that she needed to proceed with things and D you. You have learned (again) that pursuing does not "work" when the romance feeling-driven WAS is not "feeling" it for you.

Think about what led her to tiptoe towards you before this turnabout. Most likely, it was her fear of the D and all it entails. At some point in the last couple of weeks, the fear of being WITH you for life eternity, someone she does not feel it for, surpassed the fear of being WITHOUT you (the D) and all the other aspects of being D that she may fear.

She made her choice, in part from feeling pressure to be with someone she does not "feel" it for. Let her really FEEL her choice (not in a retributive way, but in a graciously accepting reality way). Do NOT be available to her. Be her gracious, attractive EX and a bang-up father to your S1. If she is to change her mind, it will be because she FEELS your (her) LOSS (from you letting her go), not because you will "win her over" through time. You tried that -- didn't "work."

BTW, your co-workers are right. When people are operating on feelings, they can get stuck in limbo when they are in an avoid-avoid conflict (don't want to get back with LBS, don't want to get D). Right now, she has greater avoidance for wanting to get back with you right now and hence wants to proceed to D. You address that avoidance by REMOVING yourself so that you don't need to be avoided, and you increase the fear of the D by making her feel the consequences of the D and life without you. (not in a punitive way, just by accepting it wholeheartedly, no more relationship talks, no more what ifs, just, yes, let's get divorced, honey, or even, how soon can we get divorced, honey).

2) If she asks you about "working on the relationship," you can be honest, "I'm a little confused, W. To me, working on the relationship does not mean getting divorced. That sounds more like breaking up to me. I get that S is what you want to do now to move forward with your life based on not feeling it for me. If that's how you feel, then I think it's best for me that I move on, because I don't want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with me. I wish you all the best, W."

She may get angry at you. She may blame you. She may get incredibly sad at you. Let her. These are her feelings. It is those very feelings that are most likely to bring her back to you after you let her go if anything will.

Also, the consequence of her choice (to D you) is that you are a free man and no longer attached to her. She does not have the right to expect you to do work on anything. You value yourself by saying I won't sit around and hope your feelings for me will change while I do backstands hoping to win you over. You have intrinsic value, Crimson. Don't sell yourself short, and others (including her) are more likely to see it.

[bustorama]

BTW, it's pretty rotten of her to communicate this info to you via e-mail. You gave her more of a pass on this than I would have.

Shows a lack of respect for you and/or fear of you in my opinion. My guess is the latter, she's operating on alot of anxiety and fear.

[Crimson]

Busto & Sandi -

You are effectively saying the same thing - and I do not disagree with you because pulling back worked intially - it brought her back to the table for a bit. But let me tell you what my fear is.

Pulling back could say to her "so, as soon as I said divorce you took off - that just proves that you were just 'changing' to get me back". Would NOT asking her to breakfast with me and S or other things be "more of the same"? That's what I perceive "you won't want to work on the relationship" to mean. I guess what I am asking is could this backfire?

Crimson

[bustorama]

I see Sandi and I were typing at the same time and we offer similar advice on many counts.

If what your W means by working on the relationship is to work on a CIVIL relationship (i.e., non-romantic/non-marital), then by all means, yes. It is important that you clarify for yourself and for her, though, that that is all it should be about for you. No hanging on hoping/striving for a change of heart from her.

[~ kd ~]

Another one of those posts that everything is so relevant:

... you need to pull back all the way, except communicating about son......and then make sure whenever you initiate contact that it's extremely important and can't wait. I see LBH's do it all the time.....use their kids as an excuse to contact the WAW, but they aren't even aware of it and will argue with you that's not what they're doing.

Your W does a ton of texting to you! If she's still doing it since she's told you she plans to pursue D, then I suggest you not respond to the comments regarding the M, your feelings, or what she hopes to get in the future. It has been hashed and rehashed enough, you don't need to hear her desires about her future if you're not included. But, you don't have to be ugly about it, either.

I will spotlight the above though...

Crimson, the communicating with my W only about the kids and specifically about the kids only when and as necessary, as opposed to an excuse... that was one of the hardest things, for me...

Well, along with not getting sucked into convo with my W on other stuff...

Here's how it worked, for me... it is still ongoing...

My W contacts me about the kids, even when (according to the SA as most of everything is listed in there) it is unnecessary...

The past two weekends my W has been asking me when I am picking up and dropping off the kids... I respond and tell her, but it's in the SA in black and white...

But there's usually something else in the messages... any number of things... generally just "FYIs" and stuff, but nothing that I necessarily need to know about and if I were the one to ask, I would likely be told it's none of my business... sometimes it seems like it is just bait... no matter what, the hardest part for me had been to only respond to the necessary kids stuff and nothing else...

and yet she continues to do the same... more than six months, maybe closer to nine plus, after I finally began this behaviour in earnest...

I just can't stress how important it is to not get sucked into that stuff... and yet how very difficult it is... it might seem like you are being cold...

but I can tell you this... in my sitch, my W still telling me that her life is none of my business... but then she pries into mine and shares portions of her's... and I don't want to know...

I did not go to a sporting event for my oldest this past weekend because I knew that my W would be there with the friends she is trying to hide from me... when she found out that was my reason for not going... she was pissed at me... Really...?

IDK... My W seems different than your W in that mine appears to at least be having a mild MLC in some of the bizarre logic that I witness, sometimes... Yes, my W's logic and feelings need to be respected and validated... but your W is at least consciously and actively aware and behaving in ways that she is trying...

The go away / come here words and behaviours is conscious for your W...

So what I'm trying to say here is, I think you don't need to fear that you moving forward on your own, is going to somehow be the reason your W forgets about you or what the two of you had... or might have...

From day one, my W has avoided talking about D... a year and a half later... she still won't... she's even put it out there and when I said I WOULD talk to her about it (and I'm OK if it happens), she doesn't bring it up again...

Give her the space she seems to want... until she files... she hasn't filed and there's no guarantee she will...

Hope that makes sense...

[bustorama]

But let me tell you what my fear is.

Pulling back could say to her "so, as soon as I said divorce you took off - that just proves that you were just 'changing' to get me back". Would NOT asking her to breakfast with me and S or other things be "more of the same"?

Here are my thoughts:

1) If you do it right, pulling back and say, "W, I get that you have felt smothered and feel like you need to move forward with the D since you don't have feelings for me the way you would like to. I totally get that and how you would feel that way. I'm not sure what you mean by working on our relationship, though, since we would be D and that would be ending our marital relationship. Am I missing something? Or did you mean working on our non-marital relationship. I am all for that, of course."

And see what she says. If she wants to work on a romantic relationship, that is something I would want to think seriously about it (and you should say so). You have value in this, Crimson, not just her. You're risking alot to contemplate working on a romantic relationship with someone who wants to proceed all the way to D you. I can see alot of frustration and heartache in that. If she wants you, let her pursue you to get you back.

It also is not at all clear to me what she means by "working on our relationship." That may or may not involve a romantic relationship. She might just mean for you guys to have a positive co-parenting or friendly relationship or she doesn't like the idea of losing you altogether even if she breaks up with you.

That's part of the confusion I suggested you express to her in saying, look this doesn't make much sense to me. I don't D someone that I see myself wanting to work on a romantic relationship with. (does it really make sense to you????).

You should totally be on board with wanting a positive friendly relationship with her, though. The issue is that YOU should not be doing ANY of the pursuing. I don't think you are in a position to do so honestly from the perspective of a friend relationship. It needs to be coming from her, her making hints about meeting at church, her calling you to spend time together with S1, etc. Once you are D, the reality is that you are not obligated to do these family things with her (unless that is how you would like your life to be from here on out, of course). In other words, truly live as if you were ex-es. That is her choice and your reality. Let her have her emotional reaction to that. It is her choice and her natural consequences that you would then be her ex. And that the 3 of you might not do things together very much at all anymore. If she doesn't want an ex and the breakup of her family, she shouldn't D you. Not punitive, reality. Her choice to interpret it as she wishes.


2) I don't see how you not seeking her out is you changing back. You'll still be the best Crimson you can be and friendly when you see her.

[Crimson]

KD - She has, in fact, filed. She did it less than two weeks after dropping the bomb in September. She wasn't screwing around. WHAM, BAM!

Let me say that I am very thankful for the advice that I have received here today. It really does help me get my head on a little better.

So, Let me summarize what I think I need to do.

1.) Do not give up yet
A. This does not mean "pursue"
B. This DOES mean try something different or go back to what worked/works

2.) Give her more space
A. Realize that trying to be more involved was unintentionally smothering
B. Dial back the texting to essentials
C. Kill the "asking her to do things" stuff

3.) Pursue a "friend" relationship

All of this is going to be kind of hard. To be honest, it was after MC and her opening up and saying that she would be receptive to trying to do things together that got me on that path. Hell, she even invited me to do things. Regardless, I need to man up and admit that I went too far too fast.

I gotta tell ya' - dropping off s at her condo tonight was tough. I came through the door, out him in his highchair, put his bib on and was ready to go. W invited me to have a seat - I said "nah, I had better get going". She wrapped a cookie that she had baked in a paper towel and handed it to me for the road. I gave my boy a peck, hit the door, made it half way to my car in the parking lot......aaaand then cried like Ben Stiller at the end of There's Something About Mary. Yep - that bad. But I'll be d@mned if I'm going to do that in front of W.

I hate having to give him back. It's like a cruel joke, ya' know? Struggle for three years to bring a child into this world, have him for 16 months and then *POOF* half of your time with him is gone and now he has two homes. The knife is twisted by the fact that the more time you spend with him, the more you fall in love with him, bond with him - and the harder it is to let him go.

W texted me a bit ago that he already fell asleep and must have been tired. *SIGH*, why does she send those messages?

Anyhoo - thanks all, you have been a Godsend today.

Crimson

[~ kd ~]

oh right, sorry crimson I forgot she filed early. Not sure if the two of you have to do any more paperwork on the D so in that case, until the court stamps the papers... it ain't over yet...

And yes, your post above is about right from where I sit...

[bustorama]

So, Let me summarize what I think I need to do.

1.) Do not give up yet
A. This does not mean "pursue"
B. This DOES mean try something different or go back to what worked/works

2.) Give her more space
A. Realize that trying to be more involved was unintentionally smothering
B. Dial back the texting to essentials
C. Kill the "asking her to do things" stuff

3.) Pursue a "friend" relationship

I might phrase it as Accept a "friend" relationship, IF you are willing to be that. Also, difference between friend and friendly. The difficulty with a friend relationship is you may get stuck in the friend zone. If you are ok with that then, for sure go for it. You DEFINITELY want to be friendly, warm, funny. You also don't want to be TOO available to her, even as a friend.

I think you left out the two most important ones:

4) Be a kick ass dad when you have S.

5) GAL by yourself, ESPECIALLY when you do not have S turning as much focus as possible to yourself and S. Busy, exciting, and interesting things for yourself, if possible with activities that include the opposite sex (to give yourself confidence/mojo, not bed partners).

I hate having to give him back. It's like a cruel joke, ya' know? Struggle for three years to bring a child into this world, have him for 16 months and then *POOF* half of your time with him is gone and now he has two homes. The knife is twisted by the fact that the more time you spend with him, the more you fall in love with him, bond with him - and the harder it is to let him go.

Sure does suck. Know that she probably experiences the same if not stronger. Gives some perspective about how unhappy she is/was with the state of the relationship that she chooses D over the R/family.

W texted me a bit ago that he already fell asleep and must have been tired. *SIGH*, why does she send those messages?

Why do you think?


Anyhoo - thanks all, you have been a Godsend today.

Crimson
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