Needing some guidance...

[jks]

My H texted at about 11:00 that he wanted to come and pick up the kids tomorrow night when he gets off of work. This immediately made me nervous because in the beginning of this week he wanted to do something together as a family on Friday night and I had told him that I didn't want to do anything with him until he ended it with OW. So I knew what that meant. I called him immediately and asked him what was going on. He started very slowly saying I'm just sitting at my house. I'm like AND?!! He said and I've been texting with OW and she isn't liking it. I asked him about tomorrow and he said well you said you didn't want to hang out with me until this was resolved and I know it's going to take a lot more talking to get it resolved. It's probably not going to happen in a day. So this was a start of very long conversation... 2 hours.

He said he hasn't changed his mind he just knew that this was going to be really hard for him because he cares about her a lot. And he knows that he won't ever be able to see her again. I was very understanding and made him explore every scenario trying to figure out what it is that he really wants. He obviously still has several reservations about coming back to me because he wonders if he will ever truly be happy. I did hurt him a lot and I told him that he didn't deserve it. But he wants his family to be together. He can't stand thinking about sharing our kids for the rest of our lives. It makes him miserable.

I asked him if he could be with her and not feel guilty anymore would he truly be happy with her? He said, for the most part, just not having my kids would be hard. Which tells me that he really was just coming back because of the enormous amount of guilt but really does prefer to be with her. He explained a lot more about why he did what he did and I understood. This is one thing about him, I feel like I get him. It didn't make me feel so bad about the situation and I told him, well, what are you waiting for? Do you want to just do it? (Meaning, get a divorce) And he said, I still don't know.

I know it seems like I was talking him out of staying with me, but I cannot make him stay with me for my own selfish reasons. I really do love him that much, I want him to be happy. However, I did tell him that he may want to think about his R with her... how right now it seems perfect and wonderful and the ideal way to go. But, in reality, its a fantasy. They haven't spent long amounts of time together. They haven't even been together with our kids dealing with day to day life. They have the same job and I know right now it may seem really cool that they can relate so much but eventually it might bug him that they have so much in common and might be too much a like. They might really butt heads on things and argue a lot. Right now its new and exciting and he just never knows. He said, I know, you're right.

I also told him that our old marriage is now dead. Neither one of us have a desire to go back to the way things were. We both want to make significant changes are willing to make it work. We both are willing to seek out a MC and it may be that much more rewarding knowing that we worked so hard and overcame so much. I told him that if we made each other a priority everyday we would both feel so valued and loved and want to do more for each other. I told him that we have the ability to start a completely new marriage. It could be exciting. He said, I know what you're saying.

So towards the end of our conversation, he said he still wants to pick up the kids tomorrow which immediately made me sad. I said so right now you're feeling like you have to choose between the two of us? He said, yes. Wow, this is hard. I felt so panicked and wanted to hold onto him for dear life. I said, I don't want to lose you. He said, I know.

So he will be taking our kids tomorrow night and all this DBing starts again. I feel ok. I know probably by the time the weekend gets here I'm going to be downright sad but for now, I just know that I have to live with whatever he decides. I know I'm still important to him but now he has made it so much more complicated because he truly cares so much for someone else and doesn't want to let her go.

My goal is to not pursue him at all. Not pressure him about what his decision should be and wait it through with a happy heart. If he makes the choice completely on his own to stay with me, not because of guilt, then I know that is the answer I want and we can work that much better. Pray for me, please!!

[hopingandpraying]

So many ups and downs...but girl you are hanging in there!

I like your statement about the old marriage being over and you can start a new one with him...that could be very exciting!

You seem like you are also in a good place about not pursuing him! That is great! Keep up the good work and I will pray for yoU!

[Accuray]

Jks,

Try hard not to mind read. You seem to want him to tell you that he loves OW more and he is only willing to stay out of guilt. That is your fear and you keep asking him to confirm it. He has not said that, but when he gets anywhere near it, you jump to that conclusion. That fear frames it as a comparison between the two of you, but that's not what's going on, as you point out, you are the reality, she is the fantasy and the two CANNOT be compared.

I went through this too -- I spent a long time talking to my IC about the fact that I was afraid she loved OM more and I was standing in the way of her happiness and would always fail by comparison. I also wanted her to stay "for me" versus the package I represented (kids, house, stability)

MC said that your spouse chose you for a reason initially, because you have something they want and need. Let's pretend that you rely upon H to get things done, and H says he likes the fact that OW takes care of things on her own. More likely than not, H wants and needs to be the caretaker, so while he may appreciate that in the short term, longer term he will not feel needed or not feel like a good provider. Often the things he thinks he likes now will be the things that ultimately disappoint him later. Relationships born from affairs have a horrible success rate for that reason.

It is also usually the case that traits we love about someone are the flipside of what bothers us the most. If you really like strong independent men, they're not going to be that loving or vulnerable with you. If you like someone who makes you feel very needed, you may resent feeling like their caretaker, etc.

Often affair partners are the opposite of the spouse, and the WAS discovers eventually that's not really what they want at all. Your traits are useful and valuable to H -- don't forget it!

Accuray

[jks]

I feel like I already have done the damage. I already made him change his mind. Instead of him knowing that he wants to be with me, he's now trying to decide which one of us to go with.

I wish I could read to him what you just read to me. I am sick to my stomach of what I've done. I keep messing up... I feel like I just can't catch a break and I keep ruining everything.

What should I do?

[jks]

I wish I could read to him what you just read to me.

I meant what you just WROTE to me.


I feel like I finally had his heart again. He was ending it with her and I got all insecure because he couldn't just DO IT. He had to talk it all through with her and it was going to take some time. He was so sad to lose her. I felt for him. I know he's not in an easy position at all. I may have lost my only chance to be with him.

[jks]

Should I tell him that I was wrong in saying what I said? Do I just leave it?

[Accuray]

Definitely leave it -- give space. He doesn't need to understand your revelations as they happen. Let them batch up.

I feel like I already have done the damage. I already made him change his mind. Instead of him knowing that he wants to be with me, he's now trying to decide which one of us to go with.

You have not done any damage, you did not "make" him change his mind. You correctly figured out that he was still on the fence and you tried to push him to get off it. You're not changing how he's thinking, only he can do that.

There are generally two ways of teaching someone something new. One is that you just tell them, which is the easy way, and the second is that you ask them leading questions so that they figure it out for themselves. It is the second method that generally leads people to internalize the lesson and own it as their own. I'm not suggesting you do this with H -- the point I'm making is that if you let him figure out things on his own, you'll feel much better about the outcome. Give him space, focus on you. Have faith that you hold value to him, and the more space you give, the more that will become apparent. Don't point anything out to him, let him find it for himself.

One other thing I can offer from the perspective of someone who's 8 months or so ahead of you in all this -- his reasons for wanting to reconcile are very important to you now, because you feel unsafe in the relationship and you don't want to be left again. Therefore you're looking for hard assurance from him before you feel good about making yourself vulnerable. Here's what I can share with you -- the landscape in 6 months will be completely different than it is now, so his reasons for wanting to reconcile now will no longer matter. If you decide to go forward together, you're both doing it with an awakened sense of the effort you need to contribute and what you need to work on and why. If you do your part well, you'll KNOW there is value here for H, and there will therefore be no reason to worry about him leaving. You will create an environment where there is simply no room for someone else. At that point, you won't care at all why H made the decision he did 6 months ago -- you're both here *now* and you're happy. Alternately, if you feel good about your contribution, but H isn't stepping up, then you can decide to leave knowing that the issues are no longer yours, you will KNOW you're the best wife you can be, and once again, H's reconciliation reason won't matter.

Getting back together with him is definitely taking a chance, you are taking a risk that it won't work out. Please realize that he can do nothing right now to assure you of success, he's not capable of giving that feeling to you. You both have to earn that comfort by working together.

I keep saying it, and I know it's hard to accept / understand, but it really does all come back to you and how you feel about yourself. That's what you need to work on, almost exclusively. If you do that well, everything else will fall into place for you.

Accuray

[jks]

Accuray, I just realized that all this time I thought your name was "Accuracy" LOL!! Which would actually be very fitting considering how "accurate" all of your information is. I feel like I just want you to whisper in my ear what do to as I go throughout the different stages of my situation. I'm afraid of myself. I fear I lack the knowledge of how to handle this situation in a healthy way.

I did ask H in our 2 hour convo yesterday if he was able to be with OW without feeling the guilt could he see himself with her? He said, yes. But he'd still worry about the kids. I hate that I'm so insecure about all of this. I want my confidence back. I know my confidence is what he wants to see as well. I now know that I still hold much value in his life and he isn't as heartless as I once thought he was.

I think if he ends up going with OW, just like what happened over the past couple months, everything will start to remind him of me. He'll see the way she is with his kids and he may miss the connection that I share with them being that I'm their mother. There are so many things. When he came to talk to me on Saturday night he kept naming off all of these little things that kept reminding him of me. I loved hearing it. It made me feel like I was not crazy in all of this. That there actually is still some love there after all.

I need to get myself in order and start back on the DB trail. I honestly feel like I'm at square one again. My thought process is the same as it was when we first separated, however, I'm resisting my thoughts. I have had so many things that I want to say to him and have restrained myself. How did this happen? Just a couple weeks ago I was on top of this!!

I need to find an IC, I just don't want to end up going to someone that will lead me to a bad place. I felt like my first one didn't do a whole lot of good for me. And I don't know if I have the time to shop around. This will be something I will be looking into anyway. I appreciate so much all of the help that I've received here, it is my lifeline right now.

[Accuray]

jks,

Yes, funny about the name -- "Accuray" doesn't mean anything special, it was just a name I picked to be anonymous.

For what it's worth, I think it's very unlikely that H will pick OW. You are the incumbent, you are the mother of his children, you have shared history together. You shared a vision for a life together. He will see this, but you have to let him. He needs to wonder what you're up to. The less he knows about what you're doing / thinking, the more he will think about you and wonder.

Yes, this is a HUGE confidence killer. That's why you have to GAL and "Act as If". When you GAL, you go out and meet new people and interact. When you see them appreciate you and enjoy your company, you learn that you are loveable and valuable. You have to go out there and do it to get these feelings. For H's benefit, you have to "act as if" your confidence is already back.

It's easy to fall off the DB program. When you do, get up, dust yourself off, and get back on. That's all you can do. No need to beat yourself up.

In terms of IC, I had to go to 3 before I found a good one, so you do need to shop around. That said, the telephone coaches on this site are excellent, much better than an IC. Give that a try and you will feel better.

I can't remember if I shared this with you or not, but if I did I'm going to share it again. This is from a book called "Love Must Be Tough", primarily written for the situation where your spouse is "cake eating", meaning they continue to keep you on the line while they date OW. This passage is talking about what you need to do in your attitude toward H:

"Instead of begging, pleading, wringing your hands...you as the vulnerable partner must appear strangely calm and assured. The key word is confidence, and it is of maximum importance. Your manner should say, 'I believe in me, I am not afraid. I can cope, regardless of the outcome. I know something I'm not talking about. I've had my day of sorrow, and I'm through crying..."

"Not that you should say these things with words, or course. In fact, the less said about your frame of mind, the better. It's your private business. One of the great errors made by the vulnerable lover when things begin to deteriorate is to talk too much. Her secure partner is noncommunicative, evasive, deceptive, and mysterious. He will not sit down and explain his inner feelings to the one who desperately needs that information."

"I'm recommending that you, the one who has sought to hold the marriage together, now choose your words more carefully too. It is as though you and your mate have been involved in a table game with him hiding his cards and you permitting yours to be seen. This has given the independent partner more information than he should have had, especially about the pain you are experiencing. It is time to be more discreet. No more should you reveal your every thought and plan."

"It is important during this time of crisis not to do predictable things. Having lived with you for years, your partner has you analyzed to a tee. He knows what bugs you, what makes you laugh, and what makes you cry. He has memorized all your little 'prerecorded' phrases that sprinkle your conversation. My advice is that you change these tapes. Don't offer suggestions when you would typically do so. Don't be predictable!"

"Your purpose, you see, is to convince this man that events are swirling out of control and may take him in directions he has not anticipated. The old rules don't apply. And why is this new mystery advantageous? Because one of the reasons your lover has lost interest in the relationship is that the challenge is gone. It's become so monotonous and routine. Hence, you would be wise to turn the whole thing upside down."

Finally:

"An interesting thing happens when this kind of quiet confidence suddenly replaces tears and self-pity. Curiousity infects the aloof party, and he begins to probe for details. For the first time in months, perhaps, he's coming your way. He's saying 'You seem different tonight,' and 'I hope you're beginning to get over our problems'. He's baiting you to find out what's going on inside. It is uncomfortable for him to observe that changes are occurring which he neither controls nor understands. Tell him nothing. He *needs* to wonder."

It goes on to say that despite your partner's stoic appearance, he will be wrestling with feelings of guilt and self-doubt. There is still a tiny spark for you there, and you have to give it space to kick up into a flame versus smothering it and snuffing it out.

Your sitch is better than the one described in the passage because H is willing to talk to you and admits that he is conflicted -- usually that is NOT the case. However, the prescription in the quote is still a good one for you. It's time to win an Oscar for being a great actress!

Accuray

[jks]

Yesterday, H met me at a park to pick up the kids. As soon as I saw him I gave him a smile and got up to go hug him. I love his hugs. Seriously, he has always been known for giving the best hugs. He just emits love. I can't stand it.

When my D6 saw him she was sooooo excited. She has been so down lately. Everyday she is disappointed when its not her dad picking her up from school. She would ask me everyday, all the time, when is daddy coming? And I didn't really have an answer for her because I didn't know our plans yet. I felt for her so deeply. I hate seeing my children like this. She has lashed out so much because she has been so neglected by me this week. I was emotionally gone from everyone. I feel so guilty right now for the way I treated my kids this week. I made them feel abandoned. And for a child, that is the lowest they can ever feel. I wish I could take it all back.

She hugged him for so long... I couldn't help but start crying. I want my family back so much, it hurts!! I don't want this pain to be put onto my children. I don't know how to do it all. Be hurt and go through my pain and yet, be a happy and present parent. I'm so scared that I have affected them for the rest of their lives in such a negative way. Life is so complicated. I never bargained for this and I am starting to feel very, very overwhelmed by what needs to be undone. It's like I keep spinning myself deeper and deeper into a web of destruction and negativity. And I'm emitting it onto everyone I come in contact with but most importantly I'm affecting the people I love the most.

I don't want to be remembered for this. I don't want to be this person. I don't want to give up but I am so weak at times.

After they hugged he went to go find my S4 who was playing on the playground. A couple minutes later I found him pushing him on the swings. So I came over to talk with him for a while and push S4 too. We then walked back over to our cars and started to get the carseats switched over and the kids buckled up into his car. He then made it a point to come over to me and talk with me for a minute. He gave me the biggest hug. I started sobbing. He said, its ok. I told him I just want you to know that I regret some of the things I said yesterday. When I told you "what are you waiting for?" I didn't mean it. I was trying to get you to make a decision and I know that isn't fair for me to do. And it has been bugging me. He said, I understand... believe me, I know. Meaning, what I said wasn't something that was a huge deciding factor for him. He has always been good that way that he has made all of these decisions for himself. He doesn't really talk to a lot of people because he wants the answer to come from within him not from an influence of what someone else thinks. (I am the complete opposite.)

I also told him that I want to take the kids to a city that's about 4 hours away that's warm for Spring Break next week. He said, when were you thinking? I said, well you told me you'd bring them back Tues. so I was going to leave Weds. He said, ok, who are you going with? I said, probably just a couple of friends. He said, ok. Then he left.

I went home and posted on FB that I was kid-less on a Friday night and was wondering if anyone's doing anything fun. My dear friend from work a long time ago immediately responded... I'm kid-less and husband-less tonight too. I said, it was meant to be! So we went to dinner and talked. It was so good to see her and talk with her again.

My other friend had texted me and asked me if I wanted to go to a late movie with her and her sister. So after dinner with the one friend I left and went to a movie with my two twin sister friends and it was so good just to get out and do something. I haven't gone out on a Friday night in a year, it seems. My H always works nights and weekends and so therefore I always have the kids.

I woke up this morning and started to read "No More Mr. Nice Guy" and I feel this is why I'm feeling so overwhelmed right now. Maybe I'm filling my mind with too much psychological information. It's a lot of changing your way of thinking and remembering what you learn from the books and doing those things takes a lot of effort. Granted, I see now why my H has issues. He isn't honest with himself. But to start down that path of trying to help him acknowledge this behavior and change it right now is more than I can handle right now. So I may need to just take a break from all the reading.

Venting and journaling here is what gives me my therapy right now. I'm in such a weird state of mind. I don't feel like myself at all right now. I'm really starting to envision my life without H and it feels downright empty. The kids are gone and I'm without all of them until next Tues.

I do plan to continue to not contact H. Give him his space. My rooms at my mom's house are a disaster so that is my project for the weekend. To get things back on track and possibly get rid of some things. I just have too much stuff. I look at all of it and think, I would rather have none of this and just be sitting in a simple home sipping hot chocolate with my H, knowing that I am the only one that he loves. One day... maybe.