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#2232882 - 03/23/12 07:45 PM Re: W told me she is done & doesn't love me anymore-P2 [Re: mindfull]
25yearsmlc Offline
Member

Registered: 04/03/06
Posts: 10751
Loc: west coast
Mindful

he is trying to come up with a plan that works for HIM...unlike your situation, Snowman sees the OM as a waning matter.

Not a dealbreaker for him. Not yet anyhow.

HOw is his wife being "bratty?" Is there evidence of that on this other thread?

What I see here is so different than what you see.

But that's the value of board. Different opinions...different viewpoints.

I sure don't think his wife is all wrong the way you seem to be suggesting.

As for boundaries, Snowman violates hers by constantly pushing on her when she asks him not to. What about that?
_________________________
m:51 H:55
M: 30 yrs
S25,D23,D15
H goes ALASKAN, solo,2005
I file Sep 2/06
Piecing 7/07
Retrovaille Weekend 8/08
M Restored 8/08

Be Happy OR be "Right"

FORGIVENESS: Your way out of hell

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#2232906 - 03/23/12 09:32 PM Re: W told me she is done & doesn't love me anymore-P2 [Re: 25yearsmlc]
mindfull Offline
Member

Registered: 11/28/08
Posts: 3975
Hey, 25...

Yes, differing opinions are the beauty of this board! And, I'll be the first to admit that mine aren't perfect. I will say, though, that I'm usually watchful for transferring my own personal story into someone else s life/situation... But, I'm not always successful!

I think his wife is just wrong, wrong, wrong... but, she wouldn't be ALL wrong if he set some darn boundaries/expectations of her. Snowman doesn't lead his family. He lets the wife lead, usually on her most recent whim.

I read both threads. Mostly, just his posts.

Brats have high levels of expectations, and have no regard for those providing the service/good/feeling.

Just a few examples that I can remember:
His wife moved out w/their son, into a "room" in a shared home. He let her.
His wife has expected him to finance most of her new lifestyle. He has.
He "exposes" her infidelity, and continuously finds more evidence of it, but still pays her cell phone bill.
She plans a single woman vacation on a weekend/week that she has her son, then "fills him in" after the fact, that he's in charge of the son. He agrees.
And, how about the tuition money/loan, etc...? EEK

I'm sure he's contributed to their breakdown. He needles her for a new status of them, hoping for one that he likes better than the present. But...

Something tells me if he just stood up to her, and for their family, she might just find him desirable again!


His wife
_________________________
Me-46, D-21, S15, S13

After many years w/my head in the sand...
I FILED
Divorced 6/2011

The average woman would rather have beauty than brains, because the average man can see better than he can think.

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#2232932 - 03/23/12 11:59 PM Re: W told me she is done & doesn't love me anymore-P2 [Re: mindfull]
25yearsmlc Offline
Member

Registered: 04/03/06
Posts: 10751
Loc: west coast
Originally Posted By: mindfull
Hey, 25...

Yes, differing opinions are the beauty of this board! And, I'll be the first to admit that mine aren't perfect. I will say, though, that I'm usually watchful for transferring my own personal story into someone else s life/situation... But, I'm not always successful!

same here.


I think his wife is just wrong, wrong, wrong...

To me that statement typifies his attitude and has backfired repeatedly.

I don't believe She is "wrong/wrong/wrong" b/c no situation is so black and white unless she's 100% evil. Snowman has sounded incredibly critical to me.

Since an affair in the past, or a waning one, is NOT a dealbreaker for him

why declare her "Wrong" 3 times? He wants to be the better choice.

What is he supposed to DO with that statement? Feel "right but powerless" b/c she is just wrong/wrong/wrong =so that means he is stuck...can't do a thing b/c his wife is just wrong, wrong, wrong...

I'm also the sister of a woman who is married to a controlling judgemental man who has indirectly eaten away at her joi de vivre for decades.

I wish she'd leave him. He's not kind to her unless he gets something in return, which he measures like Snowman. Which means he's not kind to her actually, just "trades" with her. He's also very selfish and

he sees HER behavior as black and white (as you see Snowman's wife) but HIS behavior is justified and nuanced, and always always explainable. (This reminds me of Snowman. I don't know your situation so won't go there).

Maybe when I see "wrong/wrong/wrong" written 3 times it's just too big a turn off for me and I hear my idiot brother in law talking.

Snowman has flaws and a role here, OTHER than not setting boundaries,

which you don't seem to see, at all. True? What role do you think HE has other than "not standing up to her"? And when you say "boundaries" I think you ought to be specific.

Are you telling him to issue an ultimatum? I advise against that, as does DBing.

He does not want to do that b/c he'll most likely corner her into leaving him that much sooner.

Sure she might be playing him.

But if given the choice, I'd rather have stood for my marriage a bit too long

than quit a bit too early. Especially if it's really about my ego dictating my behavior.


but, she wouldn't be ALL wrong if he set some darn boundaries/expectations of her. Snowman doesn't lead his family. He lets the wife lead, usually on her most recent whim.

okay are we talking biblical leadership or what?

Again, what is it you mean by boundaries?

Sometimes "boundaries" mean "Punish the spouse".

But my DB coach when she said

it's not the job of the spouse to punish the other, or to "teach them a lesson" or to "show them the consequences of their choices" b/c that's not loving no matter how disguised it is as,

and LIFE TEACHES THEM the lessons/consequences, not us.

I agree with that but it was a hard lesson at first. I so wanted "justice"...that was my need to be "Right"..

although I may have been "more right" than my h, i was not happy and we were not rebuilding our marriage

until I got rid of the need to be right. I think it's a character flaw, frankly.

And I'm glad to be rid of it. I'm a lot happier.


I read both threads. Mostly, just his posts.

Brats have high levels of expectations,



gotta say, the term "brats" is a huge turn off for me. I think you want to say "bitch" ....but regardless, it Just sounds very condeming and I don't see that as helpful here. We want their marriage to survive. We are not here to "spank the brat"...


and have no regard for those providing the service/good/feeling.

Just a few examples that I can remember:
His wife moved out w/their son, into a "room" in a shared home. He let her.


as opposed to what specifically? What do you think he could have done, move out himself? NO that's not what you mean...so what is it?

Stand in the doorway? Be very clear on what you mean here.


His wife has expected him to finance most of her new lifestyle. He has.

maybe that's the legal duty he has. I don't know. But I do know forcing her onto food stamps probably won't get him where he wants to go.

She's the one who had to leave with son and live with someone else, not him. He remained behind in the more comfortable home, while she had their child.

You don't seem to realize how most outsiders see that as a bad reflection on him. HER family sure does. She did too.

Have you read Crimson's thread? You may want to.



He "exposes" her infidelity, and continuously finds more evidence of it, but still pays her cell phone bill

"exposed" it? If you mean he told others, i'd say "bad idea!". It looks punitive and vindictive and always backfires on the LBSer

If you mean he confronted her, that's different. But he is not a man who speaks w/clarity. Snowman I hope you begin to.


She plans a single woman vacation on a weekend/week that she has her son, then "fills him in" after the fact, that he's in charge of the son. He agrees.
And, how about the tuition money/loan, etc...? EEK


OMG ^^^^HE did the same thing to her At the same time. How Did you miss that? They are "even" there totally...but I cannot stand the whole scorecard approach.

You are using HIS measuring scoop and that does not help HIM. It just says "She is wrong/wrong/wrong"...and what's He supposed to DO with that? Be really clear now...

If he wanted someone else to care for HIS son while she's gone (& she is every bit as allowed a trip as he is, he can do that OR have someone else. But why is childcare for his own child such a chore for him and "gift" to her?

The tuition or loans she took out? In her name or what?

I don't recall him paying those....

but if you are suggesting he cut her off to show her, then I would say "well, the marriage will end that much sooner but hey, think of the savings..."

except he'll force her into a corner and HE will be paying her money anyhow...



I'm sure he's contributed to their breakdown. He needles her for a new status of them, hoping for one that he likes better than the present. But...

Something tells me if he just stood up to her, and for their family, she might just find him desirable again!

His wife


I think he needs to be firmly loving, solid and uncritical. None of those things are doormat behavior.

I also believe forgiveness is a sign of strength, not weakness. Of course I don't mean to ignore things and effort on the marriage itself will have to happen or they won't restore their marriage.

The only person he can control or work on, is him. Frankly, I see him as a man with some work to do.

I have said as much so this isn't news to Snowman.

He has his issues and among them are the type of black and white declarations that he does not apply to his own behavior. That seems hypocritical and self serving.

I don't think that has helped his cause at all.

you dislike her and disapprove of every choice she has made. Okay...

but Snowman wants to stay married to her.

I want to help him work on himself so that no matter what

he becomes the best man and husband he can become...with or without her.
_________________________
m:51 H:55
M: 30 yrs
S25,D23,D15
H goes ALASKAN, solo,2005
I file Sep 2/06
Piecing 7/07
Retrovaille Weekend 8/08
M Restored 8/08

Be Happy OR be "Right"

FORGIVENESS: Your way out of hell

Top
#2232971 - 03/24/12 04:22 AM Re: W told me she is done & doesn't love me anymore-P2 [Re: 25yearsmlc]
mindfull Offline
Member

Registered: 11/28/08
Posts: 3975
We clearly disagree. Well, I think. I don't have the energy to read your novel, kind of quoted, highlighted yet colored - in entirety.

I'm here to help Snowman in my way, having successfully DBing myself to happiness. I'm not here to make you happy with my opinion.

I've read Crimsons thread sporadically.

Funny. Not haha. Strange.

I met my boyfriend here. We've been together quite awhile. Historically, I've said. What a great place to have met my boyfriend. We both had a desire to make a marriage work, and were willing to do work on it and ourselves to improve it.

I can tell you this. The current crop of poor men in limbo w/no voice nor support to have one???? I hope that when they're forced out of being the better option, and their marriage breaks up, that their Match membership doesn't link to their old threads here.

Not attractive.
_________________________
Me-46, D-21, S15, S13

After many years w/my head in the sand...
I FILED
Divorced 6/2011

The average woman would rather have beauty than brains, because the average man can see better than he can think.

Top
#2232972 - 03/24/12 04:25 AM Re: W told me she is done & doesn't love me anymore-P2 [Re: mindfull]
mindfull Offline
Member

Registered: 11/28/08
Posts: 3975
So. On to Snowman.

smile.

Snowman. You now have a different option.
_________________________
Me-46, D-21, S15, S13

After many years w/my head in the sand...
I FILED
Divorced 6/2011

The average woman would rather have beauty than brains, because the average man can see better than he can think.

Top
#2232983 - 03/24/12 06:27 AM Re: W told me she is done & doesn't love me anymore-P2 [Re: 25yearsmlc]
Snowman Offline
Member

Registered: 09/12/11
Posts: 148
All I can say is Holy Cow 25yearsmlc and Mindfull. I'm not going to try to respond to all of your banter back and forth other than to say you have both over reacted just like me. I did post the post to vent not to got slammed again and again.

I don't know if I got help here or projections of the things you two have gone through.

25yearsmlc-
I went to the meeting to actually learn what was needed to coach not to chase my son. I would have gladly watch my son at home if that was the intent but it was not. There where numerous handouts and other things discuss of the which I hear nothing about. I enjoy watching my son but it would have been nice to know a single detail about what I will be participating any but now I know nothing.

I posted to vent because it did bother me that she committed us to something without the consideration of even asking me. If that is wrong or controlling on my part then sorry but I would not commit my W to weeks of her time and responsibility without at least asking her know before hand.

The running-Yes running is healthy, never debated that and is silly to mention. How do I know the running is an outlet or not I can't read her mind. I do know the large time commitment it takes to prepare for these races as I have lived it. Running everyday, weekends, and other training. Yes, I do think I resent it when we were still together because it seemed to control our life's. I like golf but that doesn't mean I get to go golfing everyday or weekend and play in 6 tournaments or whatever. Is this all about what my W wants to do and I should just get to do nothing and be the only parent. I don't think the topic of running is grasped. I welcome some compromise on this but when I get blamed for not supporting because I can't wake our S up super early to be to a race at the finish line because my 2 year old S doesn't want to stand still for 2-3 hours or I get blamed for not running a race yet I'm watching our S then I have somewhat of a problem. I know it is called parenting but when I'm watching or playing with my S for my W now it feels like babysitting for her. I'm not sure of your tone but I hope you are not questioning me in the parenting things now as well.

No, I never coached so that is wrong. I played for years before I ever knew my W.

You say loose that scorecard which I can understand but then I feel like you are keeping score for me in the post and defending her or something. I'm not keeping score I'm expressing my frustrations.

The nagging to talk stopped. I only emailed her once about other things when I got back from my trip which included other things as well. I didn't consider this nagging. She told me she was very busy which I told her I understand so when I saw her I asked if she would like to talk then. That is twice that I mentioned it. Is this nagging her?

Wow, you tell me to learn to STFU and telling me I'm a turn off because I pointed out in my own post of my mistake of pursuit.

My plan as you described it was what I have been doing as my W continued to pursue the D.

What have I learned or changed:
-I have learned I can only control me. (Your post you have painted me otherwise)
-I have learned what I over-controlled.
-I have learned about the fear-shame dynamic of males/females and how that affects relationships.
-I have learned I'm not perfect
-I have learned to be a better father

Marriage would be different
-I would not neglect her emotionally
-I will be a better father
-I would be supportive of her goals in work, school, and others. (you think otherwise)
-I will not try to solve her problems but just be there and support her.

I have had my S more than my W as I have to kept track of it and I do want my S. I have painted here like I don't or have not supported him which is absolutely wrong. I can't type everything here as to who I am or what I do. I thought this forum was a place we are able to vent so we don't take the anger into the relationships we are working on. I do also understand the feedback and I guess criticism but wow the approach is a little rough.

Mindful-
I have actually heard the brat comment from others as well I did agree in various aspects. Many boundaries have been set and what she does is on her own money and time. I gave her the half of her finances. What she does with it is up to her.

I don't constantly push on my W as 25yearsmlc says. I emailed her once and asked her once days later. My W and I have been communicating through text and phone a lot. She even texted me a picture of her on her running trip last weekend.

-I actually did everything I could to not have her move out and I did go through the house were she moved to.
-I didn't finance her new lifestyle. I gave her the half of the finances and she works so what she does now is paid by her.
-The cell bill is paid by both of us
-I did go on vacation were she watched my S so her going is fair although she didn't tell me about until after she was planning it.
-The tuition loan is in her name and her responsibility. Not happy about it but it is hers.

A stronger stance may be the correct approach. I will assess my direction tomorrow from my conversation. Thanks for all the feedback from everyone.
_________________________
Me:29
W:28
S:2
M: 5 years
Bomb: 7-26-11
Separated: 8-20-11
EA w/ multiple OMs
W filed 1/2012

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#2232986 - 03/24/12 07:42 AM Re: W told me she is done & doesn't love me anymore-P2 [Re: Snowman]
hopeless in wa Offline
Member

Registered: 01/29/12
Posts: 285
Wow, that was intense, but I believe they both want to help you. Sift thru and I think you will find truths in both.

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#2232987 - 03/24/12 08:10 AM Re: W told me she is done & doesn't love me anymore-P2 [Re: hopeless in wa]
25yearsmlc Offline
Member

Registered: 04/03/06
Posts: 10751
Loc: west coast
Snowman

I'm glad you are getting a different perspective here. I mean that!

But in your real life, you are already getting your views validated

so I didn't see my role here as doing more of that.


I am admittedly putting myself in her shoes.

For sure, I see that as something someone here has to do, for YOUR benefit.

I can't say I'm 'projecting" b/c My husband did NOT treat me the way you seem to treat your wife, but keep in mind that sometimes, as I said to you long ago,

I want to use her perspective for you...

b/c I don't think seeing things through your eyes again, helps you much.

and fwiw, if you read my last post and your response

see if you may be reacting to things you THINK/FEARED I MEANT-

rather than what I actually said.

good luck Snowman

I wish you and your wife and son well.
_________________________
m:51 H:55
M: 30 yrs
S25,D23,D15
H goes ALASKAN, solo,2005
I file Sep 2/06
Piecing 7/07
Retrovaille Weekend 8/08
M Restored 8/08

Be Happy OR be "Right"

FORGIVENESS: Your way out of hell

Top
#2232988 - 03/24/12 08:15 AM Re: W told me she is done & doesn't love me anymore-P2 [Re: 25yearsmlc]
25yearsmlc Offline
Member

Registered: 04/03/06
Posts: 10751
Loc: west coast
Mindful

I don't want to hijack Snow's thread.

But lest you put me in some "feminist" or anti male categoy, think again.

See my post to Navy or Denver, or Rick or WAS2Sad or at least 5 other men I post to regulary. See how it really is.

I am as fair as I can be and on the whole-

I probably encourage & advise more men than women,

and call more women on their poop than men.
_________________________
m:51 H:55
M: 30 yrs
S25,D23,D15
H goes ALASKAN, solo,2005
I file Sep 2/06
Piecing 7/07
Retrovaille Weekend 8/08
M Restored 8/08

Be Happy OR be "Right"

FORGIVENESS: Your way out of hell

Top
#2232994 - 03/24/12 10:29 AM Re: W told me she is done & doesn't love me anymore-P2 [Re: 25yearsmlc]
mindfull Offline
Member

Registered: 11/28/08
Posts: 3975
Snowman. Now, we're getting somewhere. smile

Your last post is full of more truths, than your entire two threads combined!

So. Just a quick response for now...

Yay! On soccer coaching! I have two club soccer boys, who have played since they were toddlers.

She volunteered to coach (Yay!).
She committed you w/out discussing first... (Boo!).
Boundary: W, you volunteered and commuter your time to this position. If you can't fulfill it, it's your responsibility to get yourself covered. Because I love the sport, and will enjoy S doing it, I'm glad to help on X day(s), but you will need to find your replacement coach on X days.

Running (Yay!)
She committed you to supporting time it takes to prepare/compete: (Boo!)
Boundary: W, I'm so glad you've found a physical outlet. Training and competing take time. I'm glad to support your races when S and I are free, but we have plans on X day. Or, I think it's important that S remains on his sleep schedule, and won't wake him to be there at that time.

And, unfortunately, I was stung really bad by 'marital debt' in my D, even though occurred AFTER we were separated, and the Judge ordered neither of us to acquire additional debt. You are financing her. Also, it appears she was a 'partial' stay-at-home mom. Do you know, for sure, that she would have gotten half if everything? Or that you were negotiating/fiscally planning correctly? It's hard, since we only see what's typed here...

Lastly, admittedly, I have no tolerance for cheating, and my xH knew that before we married. The feeling about it didn't just appear once it happened to me. So, it was clearly a deal breaker. I have a hard time seeing how anyone would fight for someone that doesn't want to be with them. However, with that said, I have incredible respect for those that move past it, heal and restore their marriages. But... If you notice, the ones that do so have a spouse w/a common behavior... They are incredibly remorseful and sorry. The LBS didn't sit and wait to be considered attractive again. They acted, on their own path, and didn't ride the roller coaster.

I've read nowhere of your W's true remorse. Only that she's sorry, some days, that she's given up her lifestyle. (I'm wondering if those says are when she's had a falling out w/her affair partners, since she tends to go back to get affirming ways w/in days...)

Starsky is probably one of your best sources of help. He was a strong, leading, boundary living LBS who restored his marriage, but first realized where his improvements were needed.

My point of view comes from someone who did a lot of 'waiting/hoping, etc... Only to realize, I didn't have to live like that. I created a plan to move on... And live again ( instead of just reacting).
_________________________
Me-46, D-21, S15, S13

After many years w/my head in the sand...
I FILED
Divorced 6/2011

The average woman would rather have beauty than brains, because the average man can see better than he can think.

Top
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