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Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Originally Posted By: alamo76
UPDATE 8am
I had a question for our son's daycare provider today and I was told that our son wouldn't be going in to school today. She said my wife had texted her yesterday (Sunday). What?!? Why wasn't I kept in the loop.
So I texted my wife is our son was okay because I heard that he wasn't going to school. Her response was, "Oh ya, was just about to txt you. I just had the day off so kept him home. "


Hey, pick your battles carefully. Son got one on one time with a parent, insted of daycare, and that is a good thing, right?

Why assume she would NOT tell you that you did not have to pick him up? She just said she was about to text you.

I think Assuming the worst of our spouses does not help the situation (but preparing for it, legally, DOES help)


which brings me to 2 points Alamo.

From what you wrote here, I was not clear that you only had 30% custody and yet, she was in medical training and some of that time you were not employed. Why didn't you have him more?

Also I'm still not clear on what your goals are re custody or moving. You just started a new job

and now you MAY move to SC, but then you got vague on what that would take for you to do. (Vague with HER anyhow...)

It's crucial that you speak with clarity when you communicate with her or you will sound weak.

I don't mean for you to sound controlling but I DO Mean for you to sound more sure of yourself.

You are not "asking" her for a favor, you are asserting your rights as a father.

Finally, why did you keep all of the tax refund? Appears punitive/wrong and besides,

wasnt' she the main breadwinner?

Alamo, I've been on your side this whole time.

But I can only tell you that if I were in her shoes, and if I have my facts straight,

I'd have seen that as hugely negative. Don't know what your goal was there.


I feel like I need to catch her on not keeping me informed in the first place, but I'm not sure what to write. I was supposed to pick our son up from school and my wife hasn't bothered to arrange that either.


hmmm

first you know how the need to "catch her on this" sounds to me, right?

Yeah, like the old angry petty Alamo...

And btw,
exactly what is to arrange, if she has him? You Just don't pick him up at daycare.

When is your time scheduled with him? Does this clearly interfere with that? IF so, let her know you'll pick him up at the usual time.

No blame or anger...just factual statements.


I agree 25. I have let slip my resolute self. For some reason I've allowed my emotions affect my judgement and demeanor. BY doing so, I've allowed myself to be like putty in my wife's hands. Time to get cracking on the skills that I seemed to have such a firm grasp as little as 6 months ago.

Perhaps I'm also on edge as much as she is, in lieu of her move.

SO... to answer some of your questions and concerns:

- I was trying to ask if I should "catch her on this", similar to how you've suggested "calling her on this crap" back in Feb and even many times before that. For once, I thought I felt like I needed to spotlight what my wife was doing, rather than letting it go. Within that context, I've noticed that my wife's level of communication with me (which used to be minimal) has turned to almost zero in the past couple of months.

- Taxes. Like myKarma, I was the sole breadwinner last year. Her income were through her loans and perhaps financial support from her parents. She hasn't had a paycheck since 2007. I told my wife that she can have the money BUT only when she's within the family unit, not outside. I might be misguided, but my principle is -- just like everything else -- my wife left this family. She lost privilege to anything she left behind. The example I like to use is like when someone leaves their job (quit, retired, laid off or even a no-show), the company requires that they leave company property behind. There was a contract signed when the "relationship" started and when you end that, you take your things, but you leave behind whatever was created during that "relationship". A little off topic: As much as I've liked to have put that refund into savings, like clockwork (like my life couldn't get more complicated) my car transmission decided to die, and my cellphone went south, all while recovering financially from being between work (it was a short period, but California is bloody expensive!). Needless to say, it was useful.

- Why I have 30% time with our son. Answer: It was self-imposed by my wife when she first left the house. I journaled about it here, I recall; it was probably one of my first few posts. I called 911 but I was told that they can't take action because there was no legal bindings in place at that time. Initially I created a parenting schedule, but she refused to sign it. Last week she came back and told me that I had actually agreed on that time ratio when she asked and only started requesting 50:50 when I obtained a lawyer. To the former, I'm quite sure that I was still in a fog/daze/disillusionment over the whole incident. I felt powerless, so even if what my wife says is true, I didn't know what to do. To the latter, I did NOT begin asking for 50:50 only when I got a lawyer. I started hearing friends/books/articles to take stock of how much time our son is with his mom. A fact that I didn't know at that point was when they said that I needed to count the time our son is at daycare as well. So put that altogether and we have 70:30 in favor of my wife. Ever since then, I've asked her numerous times (in writing) to consider something more balanced, but she has refused to even offer me an answer.

All said, I want to thank you 25/MK and so many others for checking in on my thread this week. Those 2x4s are great reminders to me that I have much to work on. AND, I always appreciate a wise lady's perspective. Sometimes I forget to see it from my wife's perspective. Sometimes I forget that my wife was/is a wife of a recovering porn addict and that in itself brings a lot of its own kind of pain/hurt with it.

Love you guys.


M37, S5
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Originally Posted By: alamo76
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Originally Posted By: alamo76
UPDATE 8am
I had a question for our son's daycare provider today and I was told that our son wouldn't be going in to school today. She said my wife had texted her yesterday (Sunday). What?!? Why wasn't I kept in the loop.
So I texted my wife is our son was okay because I heard that he wasn't going to school. Her response was, "Oh ya, was just about to txt you. I just had the day off so kept him home. "


Hey, pick your battles carefully. Son got one on one time with a parent, insted of daycare, and that is a good thing, right?

Why assume she would NOT tell you that you did not have to pick him up? She just said she was about to text you.

I think Assuming the worst of our spouses does not help the situation (but preparing for it, legally, DOES help)


which brings me to 2 points Alamo.

From what you wrote here, I was not clear that you only had 30% custody and yet, she was in medical training and some of that time you were not employed. Why didn't you have him more?

Also I'm still not clear on what your goals are re custody or moving. You just started a new job

and now you MAY move to SC, but then you got vague on what that would take for you to do. (Vague with HER anyhow...)

It's crucial that you speak with clarity when you communicate with her or you will sound weak.

I don't mean for you to sound controlling but I DO Mean for you to sound more sure of yourself.

You are not "asking" her for a favor, you are asserting your rights as a father.

Finally, why did you keep all of the tax refund? Appears punitive/wrong and besides,

wasnt' she the main breadwinner?

Alamo, I've been on your side this whole time.

But I can only tell you that if I were in her shoes, and if I have my facts straight,

I'd have seen that as hugely negative. Don't know what your goal was there.


I feel like I need to catch her on not keeping me informed in the first place, but I'm not sure what to write. I was supposed to pick our son up from school and my wife hasn't bothered to arrange that either.


hmmm

first you know how the need to "catch her on this" sounds to me, right?

Yeah, like the old angry petty Alamo...

And btw,
exactly what is to arrange, if she has him? You Just don't pick him up at daycare.

When is your time scheduled with him? Does this clearly interfere with that? IF so, let her know you'll pick him up at the usual time.

No blame or anger...just factual statements.


I agree 25. I have let slip my resolute self. For some reason I've allowed my emotions affect my judgement and demeanor. BY doing so, I've allowed myself to be like putty in my wife's hands. Time to get cracking on the skills that I seemed to have such a firm grasp as little as 6 months ago.

Perhaps I'm also on edge as much as she is, in lieu of her move.


Yes I sense that^^^, maybe in both of you.



SO... to answer some of your questions and concerns:

- I was trying to ask if I should "catch her on this", similar to how you've suggested "calling her on this crap" back in Feb and even many times before that. For once, I thought I felt like I needed to spotlight what my wife was doing, rather than letting it go

Big difference between looking petty and showing self respect. (Hence the phrase "pick your battles" wisely.

Here,

1) what she did was not harmful or selfish to you in any way AND it benefitted son (son got a whole day of one on one time with his mom)

2)**SURE IF she had not ever called you to say "don't pick son up" THEN you could call her on that. But you were pouncing on her (or wanting to) for something she had not yet done/omitted doing. This was morning and you didn't need notice of their day for several hours.


. Within that context, I've noticed that my wife's level of communication with me (which used to be minimal) has turned to almost zero in the past couple of months.

- Taxes. Like myKarma, I was the sole breadwinner last year.


UNlike mykarma, you did not share the refund. And Aren't you asking her to pay you alimony or child support?


Her income were through her loans and perhaps financial support from her parents. She hasn't had a paycheck since 2007.

How'd you pay bills when YOU were Unemployed? So SHE borrowed the money for school AND to keep everyone afloat and SHE will pay those debts off herself?


I told my wife that she can have the money BUT only when she's within the family unit, not outside. I might be misguided, but my principle is -- just like everything else -- my wife left this family. She lost privilege to anything she left behind.


IMHO

YES you are misguided. Sorry Alamo, but Perhaps it is a cultural thing in your country, whereby if a woman dares leave a marriage even when the h owns the fact that he pushed her away, and even if he didn't cherish or honor her....she gets nothing ...b/c she dared to leave...

but in the US we share assets accumulated together regardless of who "earned" it b/c it's a team effort when children are involved.

IT'd be different if you won the lottery and the divorce was final, but those were assets earned during the marriage. Most states say do it fairly or equitably or straight 50/50.

Your words paint a plan that sounds as if you were "Teaching her a lesson for going" which is not a spouses's job. OR you were punishing her, by making her pay for leaving you, (literally.)

Grand scheme of things those^^^ actions push your goals farther from you


Alamo, what is different about you now than before, vis a vis your wife?

That is the only question that matters. IF all she sees is THIS type of behavior after all your work

then it's not so shocking that she'd want to get away somewhere.

When you were not working, did you have your son more? How'd YOU only get 30% custody with her horrible hours?



The example I like to use is like when someone leaves their job (quit, retired, laid off or even a no-show), the company requires that they leave company property behind. There was a contract signed when the "relationship" started and when you end that, you take your things, but you leave behind whatever was created during that "relationship".

Wow...except

1) this was a spiritual commitment and relationship that was based on vows to "love & cherish, forsaking all others,"

and

2) this was a MARRIAGE that brought a new life to the world...creating a FAMILY.

So it's NOT a contract with a company.


IF IT WERE a contract between 2 people to honor their vows, well Alamo, I don't have amnesia and now is no time for you to get it either.

YOU told us you were depressed, not working for months at a time, AND by your self description you were a porn addict.

Your w repeatedly pleaded with you to stop.

But you did NOT stop until after she left you... I don't say all this to rehash the past...I Don't!

But you are erasing the past and seeing it through a lens that keeps you OFF course and gets foggy about what role YOU played in getting here.

SOME of your interactions with your w are not great on your end...

you can do better.

You are better than that.


I think your assessment of why she gets nothing and how she wronged you and how SHE broke up the family, is unfair and too biased. It doesn't help your cause although it may feel easier in the short run to just blame her.

Thing is, WE the LBSer stays stuck then. WE repeat our mistakes with the WAS or with the next r

b/c we failed to learn the most important lesson of DBing which is to become the best person WE can become...

If you cannot see things from your w's perspective, even if you do not agree, you have to have empathy for her viewpoint...

or you two will never get anywhere....


A little off topic: As much as I've liked to have put that refund into savings, like clockwork (like my life couldn't get more complicated) my car transmission decided to die, and my cellphone went south, all while recovering financially from being between work (it was a short period, but California is bloody expensive!). Needless to say, it was useful.


All^^^ off topic. Half the money was hers in the eyes of the law. She knows it.
She resents it. You fueled the resentment.


- Why I have 30% time with our son. Answer: It was self-imposed by my wife when she first left the house. I journaled about it here, I recall; it was probably one of my first few posts. I called 911 but I was told that they can't take action because there was no legal bindings in place at that time. Initially I created a parenting schedule, but she refused to sign it.

see how your ^^^ passivity allows you to blame her for the arrangement, and take no ownership for not getting 50% custody? This has been going on for how long now? You never filed anything to get half custody? Have you now?

You can't blame her if she makes the decisions and you let her.

"Self imposed" --no that was something SHE imposed ON YOU

and YOU ALLOWED...and you don't get to hold her accountable for your actions or lack thereof...


Last week she came back and told me that I had actually agreed on that time ratio when she asked and only started requesting 50:50 when I obtained a lawyer.


So what? I think what she's arguing is that you did nothing all these months to get more time w/son, (other than perhaps suggest it to her, or vaguely ask permission, and or give her all the power/responsibility??)

but you took NO ACTION until now, so I guess your response is that you were not aware of your legal rights back then...or what?

BTW when a woman has the power in a relationship it is usually a BURDEN to her...


To the former, I'm quite sure that I was still in a fog/daze/disillusionment over the whole incident. I felt powerless, so even if what my wife says is true, I didn't know what to do. To the latter, I did NOT begin asking for 50:50 only when I got a lawyer. I started hearing friends/books/articles to take stock of how much time our son is with his mom. A fact that I didn't know at that point was when they said that I needed to count the time our son is at daycare as well. So put that altogether and we have 70:30 in favor of my wife. Ever since then, I've asked her numerous times (in writing) to consider something more balanced, but she has refused to even offer me an answer.

Here you are still making it all HER choice and guess what? She chose to ignore your "Powerless" requests, probably BECAUSE they were powerless b/c you gave her ALL the power/responsibilities in the r after you two split
or in her eyes even before?? Just asking...

for all these reasons, that's why I urged you to get a L so often and a long time ago.

I may be wrong on this, but I don't think you can blame your w for asserting her legal rights and protecting her legal interests, when you could have done the same thing but chose not to....


All said, I want to thank you 25/MK and so many others for checking in on my thread this week. Those 2x4s are great reminders to me that I have much to work on. AND, I always appreciate a wise lady's perspective. Sometimes I forget to see it from my wife's perspective. Sometimes I forget that my wife was/is a wife of a recovering porn addict and that in itself brings a lot of its own kind of pain/hurt with it.

Love you guys.


I know it pains you and shames you. Perhaps that is why you'd rather see HER in the worst possible light.

But this is not a contest. You can be a recovering good guy and your w can be a struggling new doctor and neither of you "MUST" be wrong.
..(btw, an OB has almost NO control over her schedule if she wants to deliver babies. I "fired" my last one b/c 3 appointments in a row were interrupted by baby deliveries. I liked her but I knew I was falling through the cracks in her care, so I chose a GYN who no longer delivers babies so I could get an ovarian tumor removed...)

Alamo, We all have our demons. You actually can identify yours, and work on it, so that puts you ahead of most people.

Be empowered by that knowledge, & knowing you will never be that guy again.

Just so I know, have you ever clearly told her you are sorry for how it must have made HER FEEL as a woman?

If you do so now, make sure you don't attach an expectation or request to it. It's just your desire that she knows that you get it, and you are sorry.

We all want to avoid a guilty conscience by staying on course as best we can. NO one is immune to mistakes and we all feel regret about some of our choices...

but don't wallow in shame
b/c it's not healthy or helpful, and

shame can be paralyzing --

and that prevents growth and improvement.


Back in the saddle Alamo, don't lose the hard earned progress you've made with more backslides. You have a few months to

BE the REAL YOU NOW...

and make sure you are legally protected. I think she'll respect you more than if you don't hire one...even with the anger she may feel, you need her to respect you or you'll never get anywhere w/her, AND son will see it.
Stay strong.
((( )))


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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alamo76 Offline OP
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It seems like my head and heart has been topsy-turvy. But first, I need to clarify a few things and recap on the history of our marriage and the separation:

- Left my career and home country Xmas 2003 and came to small (college) town Texas.
- Went through major culture shock (but was in self-denial about it). My future wife tried to help me, but I turned to porn in my private time alone.
- My fiance was also going through a bad bout with her parents. Later we found out through therapy that she was a victim of emotional incest by her parents.
- My fiance confronted me the first time when she found porn on my computer, I was aggressive and very angry. I threw a shoe across the room and held her against the wall (just like her father did to her mom, according to my wife)
- Married December 2004. The damage was already done due to my addiction, disrespect of my wife and my low self-esteem; I didn't see it at that time, but even our honeymoon was a disaster.
- Despite pre-marital counseling and my promise to not use porn, I still used it. I was back to it even after the honeymoon. I was a POS; I didn't know what was truly important, i.e. God and my wife and I forsook both in a big way.
- 2005, we both started separate (same counselor) counseling sessions. I tried to deal with my addiction, she tried to deal with her past/parents/psychological damage. Shortly after, she decided to break all contact with her parents, and this went on for 6 years.
- Had a hard time finding work. Part of me couldn't handle the disparity of coming from a great career to a small college town (and as an alien) where I could only work as an illegal in Chinese restaurants or door-to-door sales. My wife was always the one who pushed me out the door to find work.
- My wife confronted me many more times (once a year) over the next 6-plus years when she found evidence of me using porn. I would always first deny, then lie and get angry. Rinse and repeat. We were both caught in a vicious cycle.
- 2006, graduated from college and stayed a year to work and find out my wife's next steps (or more precisely, which med school she'd be accepted).
- 2007, moved to North Bay, CA for wife to pursue medical school. She wanted to be in family practice w/ OB-Gyn emphasis.
- I had a hard time finding work, even here in CA. It was a bad year for the economy. No production engineering work (which I was back in Malaysia) here; they'd moved to China. God opened a door in the training world and I took it. It was only a contract job, but we needed the money.
- Not long after moving here, we found out that we were pregnant.
- Planned for a home birth. After a 30-hour labor, had to go to the hospital. One of my wife's ongoing resentment with me is for not stepping in when she felt that the midwife was screwing up the home birth. I followed along because I felt the midwife (as tired as she was) knew what she was doing, more than I did.
- My job contract ended in Dec 2007, and I hunted until I finally found another training-related position in June 2008.
- Aug 2008, our bundle of joy was born! My parents came to help for 6 months. My wife grew to resent me (and my parents) more because I didn't stand up for her when she wanted certain things done a certain way, but my parents did otherwise. I saw it more as misinterpretation on both sides. Nonetheless, I sat down with my parents to talk about it, but according to my wife I should've done right off the bat.
- My bouts of addiction was still happening once every few months. I was growing tired of it personally; I knew it was a very bad thing, I knew it was serving me/us no purpose, but I still didn't let go. I still didn't have the resolve to say: "Stop. No more."
- Moved to a nice home in Dec 2009 closer to my wife's school. Even with our issues - my addiction, my wife's crazy school schedule/stress, a growing child, etc - I thought we were making strides to be stronger. The hold of porn was getting weaker in me. Our sex life was getting more and more passionate. Our date nights were consistent again. But then...
- May 2010. Company downsizing led to me and most of my department being let go.
- June 2010. Wife tells me that she's separating from me. She says it boils down to two reasons: I'm always going to be addicted, and that I'll never be able to keep a job. Says she's been apathetic for a year now. She took the master bedroom while I took the guest room (my first weak resolve; she CHOSE to check out of this marriage, she should be the one staying anywhere else except the masterbedroom.)
- I lose all sense of direction.
- Feb 2011. Wife moves out with our son.
- Mar 2011. Wife files for divorce. I respond a month later w/o a lawyer, not really by choice, but because I was jobless. I also move to a smaller place and close to our son.
- Quit my job Nov 2011 (because I was unhappy and for once the economy had picked up enough that I could shop around for another one) and found a new one in Jan 2012.
- Feb 2012. My wife informs me that she is moving to SC for residency and is taking our son with her. She says that I'm welcomed to move there too.

There are many other nitty-gritty details in between that definitely play into the whole picture since we married, but that's probably too much right now.

FYI, while together, her loans were NOT taken to keep us afloat. Losing work was usually unexpected and therefore the loans did help, but she/we never took it for living expenses. Unemployment benefits, significant cost-cutting and tax returns helped out quite a bit, though.

After she moved out she did come up with a figure (approx $4500 - I can't remember at the top of my head) that I owed her for the times she helped me and my parents (we lent some to them when their nursery school was hit bad in 2006-7). Since then, she chose not to pay her half of our son's daycare fees, which is fine to me.

Also, my wife is the one who requested alimony and child support. I'm not pursuing any of that.

In terms of the 30% time ratio -- the only way to enforce it, according to my lawyer, is to proceed with the divorce process and go into mediation. You probably have read from my earliest post that my wife wants a divorce, not me. According to some family counseling people I've talked to, one of the biggest turn off to wives (yes, even WAS) is if the husband goes through with the divorce. It shows that they've given up. The days leading up to my wife leaving with our son (in Feb 2011), I was tempted to just hold on tight to him and not let go, but as I journaled here, it was creating a lot of duress with my wife. Back then, when I first started DBing, it felt like the more I did, the more it pushed her away, so I backed off. Plus, she was doing all this hostile conversations in front of our son and I did not want him exposed to that. I'm paying for it now, but at that time, I thought it was prudent to do so.

Marriage as a contract. Well, I can go into the whole spiritual/religious aspect of it all when couples vow to each other before God. True, I respect my side of the vow, but let's not forget that the vow applies to both sides -- through THICK and THIN, through the HIGHEST and the LOWEST and so on. My wife has her own responsibility to uphold her vows. She chose not to. On a spiritual level, God has NOT released us from our vows to Him. He hasn't given up on us, so why should we do the same to Him or each other?

Another FYI - since separation, my wife has changed the reasons why she left me. Last week when she told me I haven't changed, it was about money, she said. That "I still use/keep money behind her back." She also says that I'm a walking liar. I stopped her and said that when she left our home, she said that had enough of my porn addiction and the lies that went with it. It was never about money. I admitted that my lack of work put us in tough situations, but that was never the main issue. She didn't respond to that and changed the topic back to why she's just taking back what she put her effort/money in during our marriage. I responded, "Well, if that's true, I'm right here. Of all the things you spent on our marriage, you invested the most in me." She said, "Money and things can't hurt me."

I replied, "That's true. I can understand how much crap I put you through. But this experience has been good to me...for my addiction and all. In fact, your leaving was the best gift you gave me that brought me to where I am right now." My wife said, "It was the best gift I gave myself too."

Another point: Not to downplay why she left me - I strongly believe that the psychological damage caused by her family created in her (and still does, IMHO) low self-esteem, self-mutilation (she'd cut herself), severe grudges (her parents had cut off ties with their own families. Long story) and a sense of justice (that people own them for the hardship - real or self-justified - they've been put through). This is not speculation or my theory - her parents/family have disowned their parents, god-parents and even children. When I first moved to TX, some people had advised me that if her family had a history of disowning even their own blood, I better not get on their bad side either. Did I listen? No.


M37, S5
M-7y; T-8y
Separated 060410
Wife/son moved 022611
Wife serves d-papers 032011
I filed child custody 042012; obtained custody 070312
Bifurcated 103112
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,511
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before I go on, what the heck is "emotional incest with [your] parents" ?

Meaning what? That One parent relied on her more than he/she should have for "emotional" support?

(That's^^^ Not rare at all.)

"Incest" implies a sexual dimension to the relationship. Such Inflammatory terms...

Is this a diagnosis someone made? And what does it have to do with today?

Okay - now I'll finish the post.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 903
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alamo76 Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
before I go on, what the heck is "emotional incest with [your] parents" ?

Meaning what? That One parent relied on her more than he/she should have for "emotional" support?

(That's^^^ Not rare at all.)

"Incest" implies a sexual dimension to the relationship. Such Inflammatory terms...

Is this a diagnosis someone made? And what does it have to do with today?

Okay - now I'll finish the post.


Yes, it's a proper term, a.k.a. covert sexual abuse. It involves the indirect yet sexualized, emotional abuse of a child or dependent. While no physical boundaries have been crossed and no direct sexual contact has been perpetrated, the parents willingly enlist the emotional support of the child in healing his/her own unmet adult needs (my wife's mom were teens when they married; her mom was physically abused by her father also). In turn, the child becomes the confidant or emotional spouse of a same- sex or opposite sex parent.


M37, S5
M-7y; T-8y
Separated 060410
Wife/son moved 022611
Wife serves d-papers 032011
I filed child custody 042012; obtained custody 070312
Bifurcated 103112
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 903
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Oops, I wrote "True, I respect my side of the vow, but let's not forget that the vow applies to both sides..."

I meant "True, I DID NOT respect my side of the vow..."


M37, S5
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Alamo:

I too came to the US as a student in '99, met W and married same year when i was 23 and she was 21.

Since both us were so young and immature, our married life too went through lot of rough patches. There were a lot of dark times from mine and W side.

Until last year, i did find myself paying a lot attention to how i contributed to the demise. While that introspection was good, I also found myself to wallow in it.

If there's one big thing i learnt over last year, it is to recognize your mistakes, but don't relive them everyday. That is hell. Acknowledge them and move on and remember not to repeat them. If you do, then don't kill yourself over it. We are after all human. Personally i feel that the trick is not let our past become this chain tied to us. Always try to move on positively in life and believe me, things will change for the good. Forgive yourself, forgive your wife and move on.


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Very, very good advice!


Me 57/H 58
M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13

Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do.
I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering.
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Originally Posted By: alamo76
It seems like my head and heart has been topsy-turvy. But first, I need to clarify a few things and recap on the history of our marriage and the separation:

- Left my career and home country Xmas 2003 and came to small (college) town Texas.


Why did you come? Did you already know your w?

Where did you guys meet? How long did you date?


- Went through major culture shock (but was in self-denial about it).

My future wife tried to help me, but I turned to porn in my private time alone.

- My fiance was also going through a bad bout with her parents. Later we found out through therapy that she was a victim of emotional incest by her parents.

- My fiance confronted me the first time when she found porn on my computer, I was aggressive and very angry. I threw a shoe across the room and held her against the wall (just like her father did to her mom, according to my wife)


Well....thanks for the honesty. I didn't know the way you reacted to her discovery. Wow...
At that time you were not ashamed, you were pissed, correct? (At least that is what SHE saw?.) How would you react to her discovering something like that, NOW?


- Married December 2004. The damage was already done due to my addiction, disrespect of my wife and my low self-esteem; I didn't see it at that time, but even our honeymoon was a disaster.


what did you think was going on inside the m? And IS she American?


- Despite pre-marital counseling and my promise to not use porn, I still used it. I was back to it even after the honeymoon.


So it's fair to say there is a track record of doing something that really hurt her, then lying about it and then promising not to do it again, a promise which you broke. Okay...she is still hurt and angry.


I was a POS; I didn't know what was truly important, i.e. God and my wife and I forsook both in a big way.
- 2005, we both started separate (same counselor) counseling sessions. I tried to deal with my addiction,


how? What changes did you make then? Were you able to stop?


she tried to deal with her past/parents/psychological damage. Shortly after, she decided to break all contact with her parents, and this went on for 6 years.

ok that^^^ sounds like a healthy response of hers, supported by her counselor, right?


- Had a hard time finding work. Part of me couldn't handle the disparity of coming from a great career to a small college town (and as an alien)

so you resented the downgrade you agreed to by moving there, or were you blindsided by it?


where I could only work as an illegal in Chinese restaurants or door-to-door sales. My wife was always the one who pushed me out the door to find work.

not sure what this^^^ means. Are you legally a resident or not? You got unemployment insurance so I assume you are legally present.

And isn't it natural she'd want you to work or go to school or do something? You were depressed and unhappy. That was harming the m. She was working hard and pregnant and you guys needed money.

Again, I'm not sure why you found yourself in a place offering you so little, only to be unhappy about it & react in a destructive way too.

Also not sure how you two chose to marry in the first place...any insights there?


- My wife confronted me many more times (once a year) over the next 6-plus years when she found evidence of me using porn. I would always first deny, then lie and get angry. Rinse and repeat. We were both caught in a vicious cycle.

well, YOU were "caught" repeatedly, which I guess IS a cycle.

But you still did not stop. That was very hurtful & very frustrating for her I'm sure. So what did your Ind counselling achieve?


- 2006, graduated from college and stayed a year to work and find out my wife's next steps (or more precisely, which med school she'd be accepted).


So, I'm confused. YOU graduated from college or she did? NOT Sure what all this means.


- 2007, moved to North Bay, CA for wife to pursue medical school. She wanted to be in family practice w/ OB-Gyn emphasis.
- I had a hard time finding work, even here in CA. It was a bad year for the economy. No production engineering work (which I was back in Malaysia) here; they'd moved to China. God opened a door in the training world and I took it. It was only a contract job, but we needed the money.

so you DID find work? Did you find any work at all while in Texas, other than delivery work? Did you have a college degree then?


- Not long after moving here, we found out that we were pregnant.
- Planned for a home birth. After a 30-hour labor, had to go to the hospital. One of my wife's ongoing resentment with me is for not stepping in when she felt that the midwife was screwing up the home birth. I followed along because I felt the midwife (as tired as she was) knew what she was doing, more than I did.

so she did not feel protected by you or that you fought for her? And this still bothers her?

Have you ever apologized for hurting her, however unintentional?

It IS very scary to deliver a baby, esp your first. I find her desire for a home birth WHILE wanting to be an OB, surprising. Was that HER choice or yours?

My paternal grandmother and aunt both died in childbirth. It can get very scary to be in a lot of pain and assume it means danger. Which it may...


- My job contract ended in Dec 2007, and I hunted until I finally found another training-related position in June 2008.


So she saw you unemployed for 6 months, while she was pregnant and in medical school? Just asking to clarify.

I was pregnant my 3rd year of law school and it ain't easy. I ended up finishing law school at night but if I'd had more than one semester left, I am not sure we could have done it.



- Aug 2008, our bundle of joy was born! My parents came to help for 6 months. My wife grew to resent me (and my parents) more because I didn't stand up for her when she wanted certain things done a certain way, but my parents did otherwise. I saw it more as misinterpretation on both sides.


Alamo, I'm sorry. But I completely agree with your wife here. NO parent, NO PARENT - should stay with an adult child that long, OR
with a couple who just became parents, b/c they MUST FIRST bond together and form THEIR own family...

unless the parent lives with them and that only happens when BOTH spouses agree to have an inlaw live there.


Never heard of any inlaw staying that long...OMG...and it so much worse when there's a new baby.

A parent can visit for a week or two TO HELP w/childcare or housework, not take over or disagree or make trouble.

The FIRST sign of trouble, they go.

Your wife did NOT get to decide or control who was in her home just as she became a new mother.

Alamo, It's NOT a "misinterpretation on both sides". it's You being conflict avoidant

AND not putting your wife first or getting your parents to leave so you 3 could bond as a family unit on your own. This was very damaging, imo.


Even now, I am not sure you can see that. Do you?

Nonetheless, I sat down with my parents to talk about it, but according to my wife I should've done right off the bat.

agreed.. Do you see that you waited too long to avoid conflict, and that your avoidance of dealing with it, actually worsened the situation? I'm not sure you get it yet.


- My bouts of addiction was still happening once every few months. I was growing tired of it personally; I knew it was a very bad thing, I knew it was serving me/us no purpose, but I still didn't let go. I still didn't have the resolve to say: "Stop. No more."


what can I say? Thanks for the honesty but my gut says she knew it was still happening and

she had no reason to believe you'd change. She probably wanted to see if she could accept the porn in the marriage, or if you'd get a job you liked, but she could not accept the porn and she began to feel you were not a good provider...

*** The 2 things people want in their spouses are as follows:

Men want their w's to 1) be attractive, and 2) have peace in their home (presumably means no nagging or yelling)

whereas

wives most value in h's #1) Security and #2) Fidelity.

Security means marrying a good provider so that a woman and her baby can count on dad to "bring home the meat". I think it's also feeling safe physically, AND that she will be protected by her h.

Fidelity means forsaking others...

Think about that.



- Moved to a nice home in Dec 2009 closer to my wife's school. Even with our issues - my addiction, my wife's crazy school schedule/stress, a growing child, etc - I thought we were making strides to be stronger. The hold of porn was getting weaker in me. Our sex life was getting more and more passionate. Our date nights were consistent again. But then...
- May 2010. Company downsizing led to me and most of my department being let go.
- June 2010. Wife tells me that she's separating from me. She says it boils down to two reasons: I'm always going to be addicted, and that I'll never be able to keep a job.


Ahem, no offense but, she has a point. What have you done that disproves or at least undermines these opinions of hers? Have you changed? How so?



Says she's been apathetic for a year now. She took the master bedroom while I took the guest room (my first weak resolve; she CHOSE to check out of this marriage, she should be the one staying anywhere else except the masterbedroom.)


-I don't know what you are arguing here^^^. That she inexplicably kicked you out or what?

Or that you were angry at first, like you were whenever she discovered more porn?


- I lose all sense of direction.
- Feb 2011. Wife moves out with our son.
- Mar 2011. Wife files for divorce. I respond a month later w/o a lawyer, not really by choice, but because I was jobless. I also move to a smaller place and close to our son.

how'd you move or pay for it or rent something, if you could not hire a L for 2 hours, to read your legal paperwork?

Were you just being conflict avoidant and passive again? Are you in a place that surprises you now?

Looking back, now, can you see how YOU GOT here?
It wasn't always by actions you took but also by actions you did not take.


- Quit my job Nov 2011 (because I was unhappy and for once the economy had picked up enough that I could shop around for another one) and found a new one in Jan 2012.

so you got a job, but then quit? And two months later you got another one.

You see how that Plays right into her negative image of you, right?

While you were working, did you hire a lawyer to represent you?


- Feb 2012. My wife informs me that she is moving to SC for residency and is taking our son with her. She says that I'm welcomed to move there too.

There are many other nitty-gritty details in between that definitely play into the whole picture since we married, but that's probably too much right now.

FYI, while together, her loans were NOT taken to keep us afloat. Losing work was usually unexpected and therefore the loans did help, but she/we never took it for living expenses. Unemployment benefits, significant cost-cutting and tax returns helped out quite a bit, though.

After she moved out she did come up with a figure (approx $4500 - I can't remember at the top of my head) that I owed her for the times she helped me and my parents (we lent some to them when their nursery school was hit bad in 2006-7). Since then, she chose not to pay her half of our son's daycare fees, which is fine to me.

So you guys lent your parents money and they lived with you

or was that a separate time?

FWIW, with your dire finances and inconsistent work history, how do you feel that lending your parents money you really didn't have, made your wife feel?

Also, my wife is the one who requested alimony and child support. I'm not pursuing any of that.


That ^^^ makes more sense now. She will have him more, unless you fight for him. I doubt she'll get alimony for long, if any.


In terms of the 30% time ratio -- the only way to enforce it, according to my lawyer, is to proceed with the divorce process and go into mediation. You probably have read from my earliest post that my wife wants a divorce, not me.

well what is it that you offer her as an alternative to divorce? Be specific and detailed.

And does this legal belief that only by acting, legally, can you assert your rights as a father, mean you'll do nothing but wait and see?
Has that worked for you so far? I'd see it as giving up on son.

I wonder if it's Passive, conflict avoidant and then later you can blame her for leaving.

Any truth in there?


According to some family counseling people I've talked to, one of the biggest turn off to wives (yes, even WAS) is if the husband goes through with the divorce. It shows that they've given up.

once she files for div, which she has, then you doing nothing in response, screams of "giving up" and passively throwing up your hands.

It does NOT send out the message that you are fighting for her or the m or your son.


The days leading up to my wife leaving with our son (in Feb 2011), I was tempted to just hold on tight to him and not let go, but as I journaled here, it was creating a lot of duress with my wife.

Back then, when I first started DBing, it felt like the more I did, the more it pushed her away, so I backed off. Plus, she was doing all this hostile conversations in front of our son and I did not want him exposed to that. I'm paying for it now, but at that time, I thought it was prudent to do so.

Marriage as a contract. Well, I can go into the whole spiritual/religious aspect of it all when couples vow to each other before God. True, I respect my side of the vow, but let's not forget that the vow applies to both sides -- through THICK and THIN, through the HIGHEST and the LOWEST and so on. My wife has her own responsibility to uphold her vows. She chose not to. On a spiritual level, God has NOT released us from our vows to Him. He hasn't given up on us, so why should we do the same to Him or each other?


...Not to enter a contest here, but do you feel you upheld your vows to her?

You don't think you broke them first?

Do you see how she might view it very differently?


Another FYI - since separation, my wife has changed the reasons why she left me.

maybe she's adding to her list b/c I don't see the need for her to change her reasons. The porn thing alone suffices for most women.

But seriously, what difference does it make NOW?



Last week when she told me I haven't changed, it was about money, she said. That "I still use/keep money behind her back."


b/c you kept the tax refund? B/c she didn't know about your new job?

She also says that I'm a walking liar. I stopped her and said that when she left our home, she said that had enough of my porn addiction and the lies that went with it. It was never about money.

actually you wrote above that one of her reasons for leaving was your lack of work. So that's a money thing, isn't it? What's new here?

And keeping the tax refund probably seemed dishonest to her. So maybe that is what she means.


I admitted that my lack of work put us in tough situations, but that was never the main issue.

Who says? And so was it the finances AND OR the porn?

Alamo, Why does this matter NOW?


She didn't respond to that and changed the topic back to why she's just taking back what she put her effort/money in during our marriage. I responded, "Well, if that's true, I'm right here. Of all the things you spent on our marriage, you invested the most in me." She said, "Money and things can't hurt me."

I replied, "That's true. I can understand how much crap I put you through. But this experience has been good to me...for my addiction and all. In fact, your leaving was the best gift you gave me that brought me to where I am right now." My wife said, "It was the best gift I gave myself too."


both^^^ things can be true.


Another point: Not to downplay why she left me
-


this whole paragraph below DOES downplay why she left you. She was clear as to why she left, and had good reasons, to be honest.
To me, ALL this stuff below is deflecting from your role, and what YOU can now do ----which is focus solely on yourself and your personal work.




I strongly believe that the psychological damage caused by her family created in her (and still does, IMHO) low self-esteem, self-mutilation (she'd cut herself), severe grudges (her parents had cut off ties with their own families. Long story) and a sense of justice (that people own them for the hardship - real or self-justified - they've been put through). This is not speculation or my theory - her parents/family have disowned their parents, god-parents and even children. When I first moved to TX, some people had advised me that if her family had a history of disowning even their own blood, I better not get on their bad side either. Did I listen? No.


How does ANY of that address your porn, your lying about it, the broken promises to stop it, the anger you expressed to HER, when she discovered yet another betrayal by you,

AND the way you put your parents ahead of her, and her sense that you were not a good provider?

Those were legit reasons for her to feel unloved and uncherished and you admitted it HERE...so what is all this deflecting now? It's
irrelevant (and UNcontrollable) crap...

and None of it addresses the real issues of why she left.

So you are still NOT targetting the right things to work on or talk about or spend your energy on...still.


I don't get it. Where's the DBing? Why would SHE believe YOU have changed?

Help me understand what you think happened.


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I've getting the sense that we have something against introverts here! Ha-ha!

In all seriousness, you have a point about me being passive about certain things, especially the legal portion of this whole situation. It's only because I keep getting mix signals from my wife.

One moment she's filing for divorce (and asks for alimony and child support), then she completely backs off the idea (as far as I know). One week she could be angry and resentful, one week she might be mellow-ish and pleasant. One week she might look absolute and strong, one week she might look sad. Trust little of what you see or hear, right. Well, which is which, then?

Every day I'm filled with questions: Why is my wife NOT divorcing me now? She can be done with me for good (relationship-wise, anyway), and considering her move to SC will benefit from the child support and alimony. Or perhaps she doesn't have the time, because at the end of it all, her profession/studies always comes (and came) first. Or maybe she's repeating her familial pattern - breaking off contact with someone, and deal with it at her own time. After all, she did the same with her parents (she got back with them - and her brother/sister only because of the separation, otherwise it would've gone on indefinitely); she also made amends with her step-grandparents back in TX, only because she was leaving Abilene for good).

If I'm not sure of myself of what to do, you are absolutely right. I've been trying to balance passivity (or more accurately in my view, pacifism) with self-preservation. Right now, I don't have her interest in mind...she lost that privilege.

Which brings me to my changes. It's not impossible, but my porn recovery is not something, say, my wife can look at me on the surface and tell that I've changed. Porn is such a secretive and hidden vice that you/she needs to actually be close IN my life to know. When my wife finally left, it really made me look at myself and sparked in me a need for rapid change NOW. I sought counselling, became transparent about it with my entire church, family and friends, had an accountability partner, setup stronger internet/media deterrents, joined porn recovery groups/forums, read books, prayed HARD and reconnected with God (probably the most important part of it all) and, though it's not a usual practice even among porn recovery, I abstained from masturbating (I'm on target to be 365-day free!). Lying always tied in with porn; there no real self-indicator for that, but I do know that when I used to lie to my wife to cover or hide or be sneaky, I'd be filled with guilt. I don't feel that anymore, and it's been a great release off my shoulders.

I've made better, deeper connection with friends (which I never did before during our marriage or ever, for that matter), become way less pessimistic/negative and more humble about life or people, got back in shape and took pride in my appearance, excelled in work and play, changed my wardrobe, took up more spontaneous and outdoor activities (something I haven't been doing as much lately), became more charitable, opened my house for Couch Surfers, I even grew my hair out (I've had a buzz cut since I was 12), etc.

And speaking of excelling in work -- I've always been the passive one, not looking at the big picture. I would get the job done well, but never looking truly forward. I would follow the leader/boss/company to the ends of the earth, even at the expense of being screwed over (such as being looked over for a promotion, etc). So part of my change has been to be great at work, but also seeing opportunities as well as taking pride in my self as an employee for once. When I started with the corporate office of Robert Half early 2011, I made great strides in my work quality, was hired as a full-time after a month (I came in as a contractor), was nominated for two of their annual work excellence awards, BUT I started to pick up on the environment and people around me and I started to realize that this place was too cold, surgical and corporate-y for my blood. For those of you who've been here, you know what I'm talking about. Now the old me would've just stuck with it, if not just for the salary, but I took a chance and started looking forward. The job market was picking up, so I took a leap of faith and left after 9-months when things within the team/department (not related to me) started to heat up.

I knew my wife would see this in a negative light, but I did it for MYSELF. After a long absence, I have ambition again.

I will write me more, but before I go, I'll answer some of your questions, 25:

- My wife and I met in Malaysia; she was on a mission trip and one of the churches she visited was the one my dad preaches in. We hit it off right away and had a long-distance relationship for 1.5 years. She came to spend the summer once in-between that before I came to the US end of 2003. We were married in 12/2004.

- We both graduated in 2006, but stayed for another year while she applied to medical schools. She got accepted to Touro in the DO program in North Bay CA, and so we moved out here in mid 2007.

- I was a quality/production engineer for 5 years before I came Stateside. I had not planned to move to the States so soon. I had told my wife (then girlfriend) when we were dating long-distance that I wanted to work and save a little more before moving anywhere. I was also talking about going to Germany/France to pursue my education and suggested she came too. She was adamant about staying in small-town Abilene TX. She also said she really wanted me there with her, and being in love sure made jumping in after her NOW a snap decision!

- Moving to small-town TX with probably 1 production plant AND a student visa meant that I couldn't continue what I was good at. It was somewhat fresh after 9-11, so Malaysia was black-listed as a Muslim country. The only way I could get in was via a student visa (which is why I was only able to work as a waiter at the Chinese restaurant, for example). Even then, I was rejected one before I was accepted the second time. I was able to obtain a Green Card in 2006 (and I was able to get a job as a service advisor at a Honda dealership). By the time we moved to California in 2007, the economy (and manufacturing in general) was down the tubes, and even if it wasn't, all my engineering certifications had expired. AND even if they weren't expired, the certification standards here are completely different from the ones I obtained in Asia, so it was either I start from scratch education-wise. Believe me, I naively applied from my time in TX till CA and 95% of the employers turned me down due to my "unrecognized" qualifications. That said, I went back to school in TX to obtain a Psychology degree to pursue my dream as an organizational psychologist, so I thankfully I was able to get my foot in the door of that industry.

- My mistake, my parents actually came for 2.5 months. They spent part of it here and part of it with my sister in TX. I later came to realize that even that was long a time to spend under one roof. But I understand (and come from) a cultural perspective where the parents (especially the mom) would wait - as in, a waiter - on the post-natal wife for a month or so. She'd cook special meals and take care of the house/baby when my wife needed to rest/sleep. In hindsight, I could've balanced both alone time with mom/dad/baby and the benefits of having my parents around to help.

- I was able to move and pay for the deposit/1st month's rent to a smaller house in 2011 because the landlords of our previous home knew of our situation and was kind enough to give me the (rather large) initial deposit back in advance 2 weeks before I moved out. Because of that, I was also just able to pay for a 1-hour consultation with my then future lawyer.

Did I miss anything else?

All in all, as a person and father, I feel awesome. Of course, like many of us here, we could use without all this "junk" that's going on around us. It holds me back, makes me second-guess myself sometimes and is stifling.


M37, S5
M-7y; T-8y
Separated 060410
Wife/son moved 022611
Wife serves d-papers 032011
I filed child custody 042012; obtained custody 070312
Bifurcated 103112
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