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#2232227 - 03/21/12 12:09 AM Re: Considering Quixote [Re: danielf]
25yearsmlc Offline
Member

Registered: 04/03/06
Posts: 10919
Loc: west coast
Originally Posted By: danielf
So, OM lives 1000 miles away, but she spent about 8 weeks there last summer and has seen him at least every month since then.
I read the books a week and a half ago, but feels like a long time smile
Some 180s I'm trying to implement are:
I used to make her coffee in the mornings.


Why not still do that^^^?


I try to smile and even laugh when we are around ea other (even when she's been on the phone w/OM for the past hour).
I'm super working on my temper with kids. I've been going downhill with them for a few years, and really really need to get control.


thank God you are working on this! Good...it's something SHE can notice. Remember not to point out your changes with words. That makes them look tactical (to get her back) rather than genuine, sincere changes.


I'm focusing on recovery. Have a c appt and starting back to a 12-step group. As I said, porn is symptomatic, and I'm also trying to pray, which is so hard. But that's the center of everything.
I am biting my tongue till it bleeds about OM.
Some on the horizon: I think I'll start playing soccer again. I think I should break out my cello and dust it off.


Daniel,

You have not DBd a full month yet so it's premature to give up on it. How is it that you feel your situation is so different?

Other men here have had their marriages fall apart solely b/c of porn b/c it's very humiliating to a lot of wives.

To some wives, the porn is like their h is cheating on them. Really.

Or at best, their h wants virtual sex w/women he doesn't even know, instead of real life making love with his own wife...(just saying from a wife's perspective that can happen.)

You also say you are working on your temper w/the kids, which you agree is an issue for you. So of course that needs work and I support that totally.

Look, do the math.

consistent change + sufficient time = change she can believe in.


And
Your w must believe that marriage to YOU can be better and different than before

or she won't return. How are you behaving differently or showing her change in YOU?


You said your lack of pursuit in the marriage was a problem but now you are "going dark" or being distant...

Do you see that NOT all approaches work in all situations?
It's not a one size fits all deal.

If your wife's love language is quality time together and you were too busy on porn or at work or whatever, to ever make a deposit in her love bank,

and now you are cool to her as your "DB approach"...then do you see why another approach might work better?

I have to wonder if you are simply choosing the easiest route for you...it sounds very passive.

Your situation has been going on for some time but your DBing is brand new.

What were you doing before you were DBing? When Did you learn about the affair?

What was your reaction to it then?

We need more info....but it's not hopeless!!
_________________________
m:51 H:55
M: 30 yrs
S25,D23,D15
H goes ALASKAN, solo,2005
I file Sep 2/06
Piecing 7/07
Retrovaille Weekend 8/08
M Restored 8/08

Be Happy OR be "Right"

FORGIVENESS: Your way out of hell

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#2232229 - 03/21/12 12:38 AM Re: Considering Quixote [Re: danielf]
25yearsmlc Offline
Member

Registered: 04/03/06
Posts: 10919
Loc: west coast
that WAS a scary wacky reaction on her end...sheesh...any mood swings?


Originally Posted By: danielf
That was pretty scary. I need to check on the kids and on her, make sure everyone is physically alright. It is 5:30am. I slept better last night than most of the past month. Weird.
Anyway, I took the keys to our only car when she started talking about how she would be packing up the kids to leave ASAP (not just the house, but the state). I need to talk to law enforcement about that today.
She tried to hit me and threw a laundry basket at me (yeah, she continued to do laundry between explosions. It was surreal). But nothing last night would get the police involved.
She was so mad. I was a blank slate. I am proud of how I comforted the kids last night. They were all very scared and confused.

good^^^



I got them to all stay in big sis' bed together. I should have had them sleep with me, but first I didn't know how the evening would go and I was playing it by ear, and second I had this stupid sense that it would be unfair for me to swoop into their hearts and gain connection when Mommy was hurting them.

that^^ confuses me.



I don't understand my feelings, but I hate a lot about myself. There is certainly deep emotional problems that center on me that were part of the cause of last night. I know I need to not accept responsibility for my wife's actions, both the affair and her rage. But how do I balance that with taking responsibility for what I've done?

forget the balancing act. No such thing.

Work on YOU and only you. You have no control over her or her beliefs or actions or if the sky turns purple.

So what is the point of looking at the affair or who is more responsible for what?

You know your work to do.
Focus on THAT and let her see changes in you...


So, I'm a little okay with just seeing last night as an angry teenager not getting what she wanted. I've never really stood up to her like that. I always thought I was strong like a rock, and it [censored] to find that I was strong like a sidewalk.
I broke down a little when she was out last night, but mostly I was granite-faced (like a deer in headlights?). Kids asked why I wasn't sad. I think that my detachment is scary and my general emotional detachment too.

^^^very interesting...what's your counselor say? Did your w ever tell you she wanted more emotionally, from you?

What is it that you said about not being available to her? What'd you mean?


But I guess this isn't the best time to be connecting with how I feel.
I'm a mess. Anyone? I've gotta go make sure my wife didn't slit her wrists...


check on your w for health and safety reasons.

Then put the oxygen mask on YOU so that you can provide the compassion and care your children need.

Make them your focus, and your own work...being a good father is part of being a good h. She'll notice it eventually.

You have confused her. That's the beginning of what might be a change of heart...

any change in her course will require a change of mind and a time of indecision on her end. Now that you've reacted differently, you got a different reaction.

One person can make a difference in the m b/c the m consists of 2 people.

There are many wise DBers who say "while there's an A, nothing you do will matter".

I disagree. I think OM is a symptom and that your marriage has had some serious issues for awhile now.

I see you are working on ending the porn thing, but does that mean you didn't work much on it, til she announced she wanted a divorce?

See how the changes you make b/c you want to be a better man

are going to impress her as real, much more than claims of change after she takes drastic action.

Notice she has not left you for OM yet. She could have.

She is still there.


You can turn this around. List the GAL things you are doing.

And the 180s...what affirmative actions are you doing that are new and different for you?

Also please get a DB coach session b/c I don't think you are on track with which approach you need or want. (Coaching is cheaper than divorce or having 2 homes...)

The DB sessions are very specific. I had a ton of sessions and I also had a good mc.

But if I could only have ONE tool for working on my m, it'd be the coaching I got from my DB coach.

If your w sees a L, she'll learn that she will likely have to return to work if you divorce.

I don't know that OM wants to marry her, ever, AND be a step dad for 3 kids AND support her staying home...I'm doubtful. Besides, if he were seeking that AND IF she wanted it, she'd have left by now.

Your w MAY be open to a marriage retreat weekend called "Retrovaille" which is for marriages in crisis.


You can act as if you want to go "for the kid's sake" & "communication skill building" (which is true)

b/c if she does go, she'll get something out of it.
You have to.

I have seen (and experienced) miracles happen there.

Look it up and see if one is in your area.

There are couples there who will discuss THEIR problems and theirs are ROUGH (makes most other couple's problems pale) and yet

they are there talking about their marriages, with joy and love and commitment.

Check it out.

Don't give up yet. You have only just begun to fight right.


cool
_________________________
m:51 H:55
M: 30 yrs
S25,D23,D15
H goes ALASKAN, solo,2005
I file Sep 2/06
Piecing 7/07
Retrovaille Weekend 8/08
M Restored 8/08

Be Happy OR be "Right"

FORGIVENESS: Your way out of hell

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#2232318 - 03/21/12 12:43 PM Re: Considering Quixote [Re: 25yearsmlc]
danielf Offline
Member

Registered: 03/05/12
Posts: 128
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc

Look, do the math.

consistent change + sufficient time = change she can believe in.




As I said, I am really pouring myself into my kids. Yesterday, after I got home from work I was exhausted, but I went out and played football with my boys. I think I've always been a pretty good father, but I've always been okay with pretty good in a lot of things...

I've been going to recovery meetings and really working against porn. As far as she goes, I'm not advertising, but she knows what's up. I'm not doing this to convince anyone, I'm doing it for me and my kids. And for any woman in my life; I know it has devastated W. But as far as her believing, that's not going to happen for a LOONG time.

Thank you for all of your help, DBers. I will try to paint my sitch for you to help you help me (and to try to understand it and even just see it).

As far as coaching, I definitely will, but we are pretty broke for now. Maybe next week, when I get paid. I've been unemployed for a while (contributing factor?) and my first paycheck got a hold placed on it (that we had already written checks on) so we are financially hurting right now.
_________________________
Me:33, W:32
D:11, S:10, S8
M:12

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#2232342 - 03/21/12 02:37 PM Re: Considering Quixote [Re: danielf]
danielf Offline
Member

Registered: 03/05/12
Posts: 128
25yrs, thank you for the wisdom.

Some less critical 180s: I am doing a lot more of the housework and doing my own laundry and some of the kids. Even cooking dinner sometimes. Necessary if I'm going to not have a homemaker anymore.

For GAL, I am playing soccer once a week again. I brought out my cello for a couple weeks and played it some, need some direction on that. I need to get a great piece that I can focus on playing.

I hang out with friends a lot, but more just on the phone lately, as there is just no time.

Biggest 180/GAL item I just don't have what it takes for, is writing. I've ALWAYS wanted to be a writer, but writers write. I've started stories, but never followed through. But you have to have something inside you to be able to create. Cello and soccer and friends, I can do that stuff as long as my heart is beating. But my heart really needs to be on fire to write. I think that this is a good picture of much of my life and some of why W's flower wilted: life must be lived with passion. "Life is either a daring adventure or nothing."
_________________________
Me:33, W:32
D:11, S:10, S8
M:12

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#2232368 - 03/21/12 03:40 PM Re: Considering Quixote [Re: danielf]
danielf Offline
Member

Registered: 03/05/12
Posts: 128
We saw a christian MC starting in about Sept last year. Our last meeting with him he met with us individually. To her he said "elf isn't going to accept/get that it is over. You need to get a L." To me he said "this is over. You can't change that. But you can decide on how it is going to end."
He was on the far side of the spectrum from results-based coaching. But I appreciated him and our sessions with him, mostly.
I totally need to work on my listening skills. Funny that can't really practice with W right now.
_________________________
Me:33, W:32
D:11, S:10, S8
M:12

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#2232407 - 03/21/12 06:19 PM Re: Considering Quixote [Re: danielf]
MrBond Offline
Member

Registered: 06/18/08
Posts: 11174
"But my heart really needs to be on fire to write."

No you just need to write. It doesn't matter what it is. A sentence, a poem, whatever, you just write. If you wait for the "passion" to overwhelm you, you're going to be waiting forever. It's like M. You don't wait for love to come, you practice it and it comes naturally.

"But as far as her believing, that's not going to happen for a LOONG time. "

Mindreading. If you keep saying this, it will take a long time.

"I totally need to work on my listening skills. Funny that can't really practice with W right now."

Yes you can. You have kids together, you're going to have to interact. Start there.
_________________________
M-43 W-40
2D - 9 and 5

Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet a new life.

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#2232496 - 03/22/12 12:38 AM Re: Considering Quixote [Re: MrBond]
danielf Offline
Member

Registered: 03/05/12
Posts: 128
Thank you, 007.
Here's why I think it will take a long time for her to believe:
I confessed to my church youth group in high school that I had a problem with porn, so she knew that it had touched my life before we even dated. When we were newlyweds, she caught me with a video I shouldn't have been watching. I started trying to fight it; went to a men's support group, read some books.
It was up and down. I advanced from a "support" group to a "recovery" group (when you go from a "problem" to admitting an "addiction") when I got a job post college, just before we had our second child.
We had another child and moved again. I worked in defense and needed a Top Secret Security Clearance for work, and as part of the background check admitted to looking at porn at work. I squeeked by, but started to going to a counselor and AA groups multiple times a week (though I wasn't alcaholic, there weren't more specific groups available near me).
I have never thought or said that my behavior was okay. In my defense, scratch that, by the grace of God, I have never advanced past somewhat soft-core porn and never to online relationships, prostitutes, voyeurism, etc.
But the story doesn't stop there. We made the big move from our home state and after six months at my new job, I was going through a more rigorous background check, and actually was taking a polygraph (lie detector) test and admitted again to porn at work. This time, I failed the clearance and lost my job. I have been through several jobs in quick succession since (none lost due to my fault, but the tumble certainly started with me).
So, last summer, part of my reaction to the bomb was to get with a IC that specializes in men with porn addiction. I've been making progress. She is upset that she had to hit rock bottom in order for me to have. Me too. But now it is more than progress, I am killing this thing.
I have been going to Sexaholics Anonymous meetings multiple times a week, and Celebrate Recovery (Christian 12-step for general issues) every week. I have a sponsor and I'm reading every day and working my program.
I don't think she's going to get convinced that if she comes back I won't revert. But more important than convincing her is being ready to help my boys avoid this path in a few years. I have work to do today to be ready for that.
_________________________
Me:33, W:32
D:11, S:10, S8
M:12

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#2232559 - 03/22/12 09:36 AM Re: Considering Quixote [Re: danielf]
25yearsmlc Offline
Member

Registered: 04/03/06
Posts: 10919
Loc: west coast
any insights on why you chose porn as your thing?

What was your dad like? How did he express appreciation OR attraction to women?

what was your parent's marriage like?

What/when exposure to porn did you have?

I'm just curious as to whether it can be passed on like the alcoholic's prediposition can be...
_________________________
m:51 H:55
M: 30 yrs
S25,D23,D15
H goes ALASKAN, solo,2005
I file Sep 2/06
Piecing 7/07
Retrovaille Weekend 8/08
M Restored 8/08

Be Happy OR be "Right"

FORGIVENESS: Your way out of hell

Top
#2232637 - 03/22/12 04:38 PM Re: Considering Quixote [Re: 25yearsmlc]
danielf Offline
Member

Registered: 03/05/12
Posts: 128
25yrs,
Some things I've been learning about myself:
My pacivity (which has even been apparent and called out by some on this thread) is a big part of my draw to pornography. ML with W is kinda hard for me; so much focus and effort required. porn is way easy and doesn't ask for anything from me. I have not been a very competitive person in a lot of ways.
I'm suspicious that some of my behavior over the last 11 years has been due to R dynamics and stress, etc. We had 3 caulicky kids before I was 24, I always struggled to have close friends other than W, etc. W was often moody and when she was hungry she was pretty un-fun to be around. That isn't to say I'm not truly addicted and just need to take a communication course and GAL and snap out of it, though. Dad was a gentle and nice man, but it always made me want to scream how he would constantly leer at women. He is actually in SA as well, and his valley was deeper and darker than mine, but I didn't know any of this until recently. I am certainly convinced that I inherited a predisposition.
Among the mountain of things I'm trying to read right now, I'm really identifying with "No More Mr. Nice Guy" that I saw recommended on this site.
I think that, as for this forum, that's probably enough insight to my issue. I am certainly digging much deeper, on my own and in other communities. I know people here see enough to make one's toes curl, and I will answer any other questions you have. But I shy away from further disclosure here. I hope it is modesty and not shame.
_________________________
Me:33, W:32
D:11, S:10, S8
M:12

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#2232676 - 03/22/12 07:24 PM Re: Considering Quixote [Re: danielf]
25yearsmlc Offline
Member

Registered: 04/03/06
Posts: 10919
Loc: west coast
Originally Posted By: danielf
25yrs,
Some things I've been learning about myself:
My pacivity (which has even been apparent and called out by some on this thread) is a big part of my draw to pornography. ML with W is kinda hard for me; so much focus and effort required. porn is way easy and doesn't ask for anything from me.


Wow that^^^ is very honest. Thank you. So, Have you realized anything else about yourself as you read that again? What does it say about you as a lover or husband?
[/i]
How about you imagine your wife saying that making love to you "is kinda hard for me; so much focus an effort required.."

Would you feel your wife was a generous lover if she said that?

And make no mistake, women rarely "just lay there," so let's not argue about who does the "Work" in making love.

I don't know any women who want to just lay there. They'd much prefer truly making love. But if their h has made it clear that it's for him only, what's the point of getting into it if it ultimately only frustrates them more?

So if your wife had said making love to you required too much effort and focus, Would you feel very valued by her? Would you think she sounded mature?

How much Would you think she valued your sexual satisfaction?

Making love is an act of profound intimacy. It's a mutual, bonding act.

Aside from physical gratification, Making love can be a source of comfort in grief, a celebratory act or even parental pride after a child reaches a milestone...and it's a unitive act.

Making it all about how fast/efficiently you can achieve your personal goal sure misses the boat, imo. I believe you will be happier when you take that all in and make changes there.

I am not going to go into graphic detail about porn and "self servicing"

but I will say it can be VERY selfish in a marriage.


I have not been a very competitive person in a lot of ways.
I'm suspicious that some of my behavior over the last 11 years has been due to R dynamics and stress, etc.

But since all of us have stress, (and we all do) isn't this really about not having the TOOLS for managing it? The good news is you can get those tools.


We had 3 caulicky kids before I was 24, I always struggled to have close friends other than W, etc. W was often moody and when she was hungry she was pretty un-fun to be around. That isn't to say I'm not truly addicted and just need to take a communication course and GAL and snap out of it, though.


when three kids are colicky, wasn't your wife the one who provided the bulk of the care? You SEEM to be saying porn was partially a poor reaction to stress.
Even if true (and it might be)

Doesn't some of her behavior make more sense now?

If anyone were to snap, based on chronic sleep deprivation and no breaks, wouldn't it be her?


Dad was a gentle and nice man, but it always made me want to scream how he would constantly leer at women.

I figured you learned it somewhere. Without knowing how he treated your mom, it's hard to know if he was disrespecting the women, and or resented them, or what.

But You know, we all inherit beliefs and traits from our parents. Some good, some bad.

We can release the traits & beliefs that are false OR just are not working in our lives....


He is actually in SA as well, and his valley was deeper and darker than mine, but I didn't know any of this until recently. I am certainly convinced that I inherited a predisposition.
Among the mountain of things I'm trying to read right now, I'm really identifying with "No More Mr. Nice Guy" that I saw recommended on this site.
I think that, as for this forum, that's probably enough insight to my issue. I am certainly digging much deeper, on my own and in other communities. I know people here see enough to make one's toes curl, and I will answer any other questions you have. But I shy away from further disclosure here. I hope it is modesty and not shame.


understood.
_________________________
m:51 H:55
M: 30 yrs
S25,D23,D15
H goes ALASKAN, solo,2005
I file Sep 2/06
Piecing 7/07
Retrovaille Weekend 8/08
M Restored 8/08

Be Happy OR be "Right"

FORGIVENESS: Your way out of hell

Top
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